What is the definition of a toxic mother? What causes women to turn on their own children? What does that kind of physical/verbal/emotional abuse do to a child and how does that affect adult children of toxic mothers? Toxic mothers can present one way to the “public” and completely different behind closed family doors.

Growing up with a toxic mother is a roller coaster. Sometimes the abuse is obvious and sometimes the toxic mother is subtle but deadly. Any parent who uses fear, obligation, or guilt, to manipulate and control their adult children or any child, is toxic. Either overt or covert, realizing your mother is not a “mom” can be heartbreaking.

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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, so lots of cool stuff going on. So, this week’s current events, so I just picked up my American Counseling Association Counseling Today. And this was from this is March, this is the current one. And they have an article on parental alienation about damn time. This is written by Scott Gleason. So, if you could get your hands on Counseling Today by the American Counseling Association, March volume, this is by Scott Gleason Child Abuse in Disguise the Impact of Parental Alienation on Families, finally, so here’s the deal. The apparently, the DSM is going to be updated here soon. And these guys are fighting to get parental alienation into the DSM, which I think is fantastic. And he makes a really good point. So, they don’t have it in the DSM right now. Because who was talking about narcissism, you know, 15-20 years ago? Oh, gee, I was, but you know, so was Kim Saeed. And so, it was Shahida Arabi and so was everybody else that’s ever been abused. But finally, finally, finally, the mainstream therapists are finally it’s being hammered at them enough that they’re trying to get it put into the DSM.

Now, here’s what I need you guys to do. I want you to write American Counseling Association. And thank Scott Gleason for publishing this article. The thing that’s happening is, is because parental alienation is not in the DSM five court system is going “It’s not in the DSM five so it’s not legal!” Oh, you know, the court system can suck eggs anyway, once it gets into the DSM five, it’s going to be easier for the targets of abuse, to say this is what’s going on. This is how they’re alienating me from the kids, etc, etc, etc. Dear God, in heaven, we need this so bad, I cannot even begin to tell you. So, I want you to get ahold of the American Counseling Association. And I want you to get a hold of the American Psychiatric Association because they are the ones that do the DSM five, let them know in no uncertain terms, you must, not maybe a suggestion, not Gee would be nice, no mother Cluckers, you need to put this into the DSM five, this has got to be legal diagnosis, it has got to be a legal thing. Because otherwise, these effing judges are not going to effing get it, you dig what I’m saying?

So, two places, I want you to get a hold of as the American Counseling Association, please thank Scott Gleason for writing the article child abuse in disguise in the March issue of America of counseling today by the American Counseling Association, and I want you to get a hold of the American Psychiatric Association. Let them know let them hear your story. Now is the time guys. Now is the time if you have been a victim of parental alienation, now is the time to write into the American Psychiatric Association and let them know why isn’t this in the DSM five, or the DSM is going to be the DSM six or whatever it is. But why isn’t this in the DSM? This is what happened to me. This is what the excuse the judges are using not to listen to the fact that these Jack wagons are alienating their kids from the sane parent. And something that Scott said in his article that just absolutely 110% right on the abuser and in this is the other thing. Oh. Colleges must teach the behavior of narcissist psychopaths and Machiavellian control freaks. They must. Because what therapists are trained to do is they tend to believe the calm cool one. Well, hello, what do psychopaths do? They play act What a narcissists do? They play act.

So, when somebody comes in for a family consultation. So, you’re getting a psych evaluation, a psychologist or a psychological evaluation done on the entire family. If that therapist does not know, they’re a hole from a hole in the ground, they’re going to side with the abuser for so many reasons. One, they haven’t obviously done their homework. Don’t get me started. And two, if they’ve got any sort of family issue, they’re going to side with the abuser and three, if their college has done the whole Oh, well, you know, clearly the person who’s calm and cool is the one who’s sane and the one who’s nervous and anxious and depressed. And they’re the one with the issue. Oh, my God, what a disservice. What a disservice, colleges, universities, these programs, that churnout therapists do a by not teaching. This is how somebody who’s being targeted with kids is a nervous wreck. Okay, they’re desperate for somebody to believe them. They are going to look like the crazy one. But I’ll give you three guesses who the crazy one is the psychopath over here who’s calm, cool, collected and controlling the board? You know, Machiavellian. Hello. So yeah. Ah, Anyway, point being progress is being made. I am feeling hopeful. So, get a hold of the American Psychiatric Association. Send in those letters. Andy, do not take any of this out. I need everyone to do this because we have got to get that into the DSM. Absolutely. Once it’s in the DSM, none of these narcissistic lawyers or judges or anybody else is going to be able to go “Oh it’s not in the DSM so it is not a real thing.” Oh, my God, oh, my God. And can I tell you how desperately we need to educate the family law system to all this stuff? Oh, don’t get me started. So, I’m a little bit passionate about this. So please get a hold of the American Counseling Association counseling today. Scott Gleason, thank him for writing this article. Tell your stories. Let the community out there let the therapists out there know that yeah, hell yeah, this is a real thing. Hell yeah. These jackasses do this on a weekly daily basis, and that the target of abuse is going to look like the cuckoo one when in fact, it’s the one that’s doing the manipulation. That’s the cuckoo one, the one that’s cool, calm, collected. Do you see where I’m going with that? So anyway, and also get a hold of the American Psychiatric Association and let them know this has absolutely got to be in the DSM has to, we need legal protection. We when I say we, I mean targets of abuse need legal protection. Their kids need legal protection from abusers who are going not just maybe not just possible. No, they are going to do parental alienation. So oh, there it is. So that gives me some hope. So please do contact those two organizations and let them know, in no uncertain terms, that this must be in the DSM.

And if you’re a college student, and your, your class, your university, your college is not teaching about domestic violence, shame on them! Absolutely, Shame on them! You’re going to have to go get your own education outside of your university. That’s what I had to do. It’s like when I left, I went they didn’t tell me everything I needed to know. Not even close. So, and they wouldn’t touch domestic violence or personality disorders with a 25-foot pole because, at the time in 2005, the half of HPA was trying to get rid of personality disorders, because half the APA probably has them. So, the point being is the time is right, get in there, get your voice heard, and let them know it is got to be put into the DSM. So, thank you, Scott Gleason. I am forever in your debt for writing that article. Thank you. Oh, I’m tired now.

All right, today, and this kind of leads in nicely. Today we are going to be talking about disordered moms specifically when mothers maybe mother cluckers, but they’re not moms. They’re not moms. So disordered female unit parental units are so bizarre they do not have that maternal instinct they just don’t they did not there the lights are on the engine is running and ain’t nobody home you know what I’m saying?

Kris Godinez  09:32

So, narcissistic moms put on an act you know, it’s all about appearances for narcissistic moms so in public they’ll be not Lovey Dovey, but there’ll be seemingly, you know, this great parent this that the other thing is second, they get behind closed doors, though. The real them comes out. So, I wanted to read a couple of things. So, this is The Narcissistic Mother. This was written by Mark Banschick, MD, and this is called the intelligent divorce narcissism, the narcissistic mother; this was published in 2013. So, it’s a little bit older, but it’s still pretty true. She’s a winner, at least in public. So, she puts out this, this, you know, this facade of everything’s fine. But then, when you’re at home, you’re walking on eggshells, the child is raised to please, that is so common with any narcissistic parent. But the narcissistic mother’s confidence is brittle. And she always needs to be right. She says everything she says goes without question. That’s why it’s, that’s the way it is with parents when you’re a child. So, they don’t even, you know, treat the kid like a kid they are very much into do as I say, because I’m the boss, as opposed to, I am nurturing you, I am teaching you how to do things. We’re doing this this way because of this. So, they’re very authoritarian. They’re not authoritative. They’re authoritarian. So, like a dictator kind of thing. They do not value input from the child at all, you know, and I’ll give you a great example of that.

So, my dad crazy. Hello, I think we think we’ve established that one day I was 10 years old, I was in the van with him, and mom and the cruise control went crazy and didn’t stop. And so, he kept pumping the brake and wouldn’t disengage, wouldn’t disengage, wouldn’t disengage, and I kind of looked at the situation, and I went, put it in neutral, turn off the car. And he looked at me and told me to shut up, right? Finally, my mother screamed at him, you know, put it in neutral, stop the car, and he did and then he was livid that I knew at age 10 How to Save Our hind ends, right logic. It was logic. It’s, it’s kind of akin to shut the computer down, restart it. Okay. It’s not. Have you tried shutting the country down and restarting? Yeah, I mean, it’s the same thing. It’s like when things are not working, you shut it down, and you you know, troubleshoot, and you restart it and see what happens. He was livid. He wasn’t about to listen to a 10-year-old, even though he was sitting there, you know, pumping the brakes, pump the brakes, nothing was working. And I’m like, okay, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. Let’s try something different. Right? So, they don’t respect their kids. They don’t listen to their kids. They don’t value their kids, and they certainly don’t see their kids as separate entities. They don’t. So, a narcissistic mom. Oh, it’s Mother’s Day in the UK. That explains why my friend Marianne was wishing Mother’s Day to her mom and in Scotland. Thank you. I’m like, Why is she wishing Yeah. Anyway, so anyway, the point being is they don’t see us separately. They don’t. There is no this is where they begin, and end, and this is where you begin an end. You know this there’s no separation, there are no boundaries, and they can’t stand being out done. They can’t stand being, you know; they can’t they have to be the smartest, the prettiest the whatever. So, we’re going to go into the competition thing because mothers in particular, do this. They also infantile eyes their children’s so hold on.

Um, as you evolve as you get older, you realize your mother’s behavior lacks normal maternal nurturing that you see in other kids and their parents. So, a healthy normal mom loves their child loves cannot wait for them to wake up in the morning. Can’t wait to see them, you know, basically teaches them self-esteem. Hi, good to see you. Good to see. You know, they’re so excited to see you. You know, and this is where we get our first hit of self-esteem. Right? Re-parenting, you know, because the mom is so happy to see them. What narcissistic mothers do is the child is a burden. The child is you know, it’s like I don’t want you know I’m not going to get up and make you breakfast. That’s a narcissistic mom say and do it’s like they get angry that the child wants something. How dare this child be an inconvenience? How dare this child actually need to be fed? How dare this child want to be loved? Because they don’t love let me just be very clear about that. Narcissistic mothers narcissistic fathers but particularly narcissistic mothers, they do not have that maternal instinct. They don’t they don’t like their own children. Not narcissistic fathers don’t either. They don’t have the paternal instinct. So they don’t like their own children, and they see them as a burden. They see them as a problem. They see them as you know. Why are you bothering me? Kind of thing. So, hold on. I wanted to continue with this. Your mom will demand all the attention. If you hold back, she takes offense and attacks. She’s tired, she’s irritated, and she wants it her way. Your feelings had better align with hers.

If you hear the word ungrateful one more time, you’ll scream, O. M. G.! I cannot tell you the number of times my father would say how ungrateful we all were. This is right before he would write us into or out of the will, depending on who was being ungrateful, in his opinion. So, you know, ungrateful, and his favorite quote was from King Lear, how sharper than the serpent’s tooth is that of an ungrateful child, and I’m just like, Okay, first of all, King Lear was a jerk. Thank you very much. Second of all, why is that your favorite quote? There’s so many more beautiful quotes from Shakespeare, you know? So, you know, that was his whole thing that would that fit into his, what’s the word I’m looking for? That fit into his storyline that fit into his I’m a victim. I’m a victim. I’m a victim. But narcissistic moms do the same thing. Oh, your ungrateful little wretch. Oh, you’re such an ungrateful child. Look at all I do for you. And they don’t do anything. They don’t do anything. They resent getting up and making breakfast for them. They resent having to take them to school. They resent, you know, having kids. Kids are time intensive. Kids are amazing. And I love them. And that’s awesome. They’re great. And you want to be there for them, to nurture them, to help them grow and everything. But narcissists expect kids to somehow raise themselves, or they dumped them off with nannies. That’s the other thing I’ve seen narcissistic mothers do is that they abdicate raising the kid completely and dumped them off with a nanny, even though they’re not working. And they’re home. And they expect the child, Oh, here is a trauma response, like no buddy’s business. If you had one of those mothers that dumped you with a nanny or abdicated raising you whatsoever that it expected you to be quiet children to be seen and not heard. That’s the famous thing that narcissists say male and female children are to be seen and not heard. That’s a very Victorian kind of attitude. And we all know how well-adjusted the Victorians were. Don’t get me started.

Oh, I’m so excited by this table leg, Dear God, you need to get out more.

Anyway, the point being is, is that they would have sorry, caffeine, and then this whole thing with the DSM, I’m very excited. So, they expect the child to be seen and not heard, or they don’t even expect the child to be seen. In fact, what they’d rather is that the child just kind of stay in their room until they turn 18 And then miraculously leave the house and know how to navigate the world and then take care of them in their old age. Yeah, that’s what they do.

So oftentimes, children that have been raised by these narcissistic parents, especially a mother, they don’t they’re uncomfortable with hugging because they’re not used to it, because the moms don’t do it. And maybe the dads don’t either because the mother will insist that the dad not coddle them. Spare the rod spoil the child. Yeah, they’re very much into that they are so selective about what pieces of the Bible they will quote. And they’ll misquote it. And they’ll misunderstand it because, well, yeah, you know how they are. Anyway. The point being is, is it the child does not know how to have social skills, and the child does not know how to hold down a job or anything else. Because that parent has insisted that that kid stay in that room. They will tip-toe like literally the children that have been raised by narcissistic moms could literally be ninjas. Because they’re so quiet. They’re so quiet because have they had their voice taken away from them. Children should be seen and not heard, and probably not even seen as far as the narcissist is concerned. So those kids that were raised by somebody like that who’s truly malignant, truly dark triad, they will literally be so quiet that could sneak up on you, and you’d never hear it you know what I’m saying? Because they’re just so used to like to want to be getting, I don’t want to be seen. I don’t want I don’t want her to hear me because she’ll focus her anger on me. So that’s a trauma response.

Kris Godinez  19:28

If you find that you’re super quiet. You were probably raised by a narcissistic mother. Okay, hold on. narcissistic mother plus children equals instability. The socially engaged mom becomes the controlling mom at home. She’s no longer the woman wearing the perpetual smile that never falters, at least in everyone else’s eyes. She is demanding, criticizes, and lets you know in more ways than one that you are not up to her standards. She makes you feel like a failure. There is  Nothing you can do that is good enough. If you’re not doing what she wants right now, when they say jump, they literally expect you to ask how high. Yeah, that’s how they are. If your mom is really good at manipulation, especially when your emotions are involved, if you aren’t fulfilling her desires to make her feel like like her needs are of the utmost important importance, be prepared to experience pain in the way of criticism or an attack. And if you are looking for validation to you, she’s you are going to be waiting a long time. They do not validate just like they don’t apologize. Narcissistic moms are easily offended claiming that she does so much for you. I do all of this for you when you don’t do anything for me. Oh, I’m so victimized here. Yeah, please. If you don’t give her what she wants, she’s upset, and she’ll pull you don’t love me because if you did, you would do what I wanted card, or she’ll simply accuse you of taking her for granted and not appreciating her as a mother. Even though she’s doing literally goose egg, she might compare you unfavorably to someone else who is good to his or her mother. She is privately opinionated, blasting people while being more forgiving in public. So, she pretends to be a saint in public. But in private, she’s a demon. The mom needs to look good in front of everyone, somatic kind of, you know, concerned about appearances. Even as if she isn’t too fond of them. She has charismatic smiles and even chats with them while saving her criticisms at home.

She finds fault in you. When you make it right, you barely get validation. I’m sorry, mom is never enough with her. And you can never figure out how to please her with an apology. Because she doesn’t want to be pleased. Let’s be very clear about that. Narcissistic mothers are very much they need a child to be a mini-me. And if that child is not a mini-me, those are the ones that shove in the room and don’t want to talk to. So, if you’re doing everything she wants, and you’re a mini-me, she’ll of give you a little bit of validation, but it is never going to be real because they’re not real. It’s just to be clear about that. She makes you anxious, not filled with self-confidence.

So, a good mom fills their child with self-confidence. So, when a good parent is talking to their child, and they’re nervous or scared, you comfort them, and you give them courage, you encourage them and you let them feel safe, and you let them know you’ve got their back. Absolutely narcissistic mothers do not do that. In fact, they revel in infantilizing, their children making their children absolutely dependent upon them for two reasons so that they can complain to the world what a burden you are and two that they won’t ever be left. Because they’re looking to keep you tethered to them so that they have a constant supply of narcissistic supply. Their cocaine, you know what I’m saying. So, there is that.

The world revolves around her. Your mom has to be the center of attention literally at all times. She needs to be waited on and adored and expects you to provide her with all of the above and more. Now I have seen narcissistic mothers ruin weddings or attempt to, try to be the center of attention at a funeral. Yeah, crazy. I’m just like really? Ruin birthdays, ruin anniversaries, ruin holidays, you know, that’s just what they do. That’s just what they do. And if it’s not about them, they get bitter. And if somebody’s having a good time, they got to ruin it because they don’t feel the way you and I feel. They are jealous. We also need to talk about competition.

Narcissistic mothers are in competition with their female daughters, okay. So, they’re in competition, and they will hit on the boyfriends. They will try to be their equal, kind of like their buddy. They’ll dress like a teenager. They’ll, you know, try to be cool and all this stuff. Instead of being a parent. They do all of these weird behaviors to get attention and to validate to themselves that they are still relevant and that they are, in fact, young. Narcissistic moms are terrified of aging. Then we talked about this. They’re terrified of getting older. They’re terrified of not being relevant, right? So, there’s all of this weirdness going on. There’s this weird competition. They will sabotage you. They will sabotage your schoolwork. They’ll sabotage your extracurricular activities. They’ll sabotage your marriage. So, they get so jealous that they will badmouth the spouse, to the daughter, you know, oh, your husband is this your husband’s and vice versa, it will also happen with, you know, the female spouse being bad-mouthed by the mom with the Son is the son of the narcissist, boy that was convoluted. You know what I’m saying? Anyway, they’ll badmouth the spouse, and they’ll try to convince the child to divorce. And everything that they are saying about the spouse is a load of crap because they’re jealous and they’re angry. And they see that the spouse is good for the child. They can’t have that. They can’t have somebody else they perceive being in control of the child, but they don’t understand is that child is their own autonomous person. But they perceive that oh, well, you know, somebody else controlling them, I need to control them. No, that’s not the way of the world, sweetheart, thank you. But that’s what they do.

So, they’re constantly in competition, and they’re constantly looking to sabotage. They’ll try to sabotage jobs. They will, you know, call employers and try to start trouble. Again, drama and chaos is their currency. If they don’t have drama and chaos, they are not happy. Why? Because they need to be focused outwards. They can’t go inwards because there’s nothing here. There’s no there, there.

So okay, let’s finish up this article. How are we doing on time? Okay. All right. They also will infantilize their children. So, they will keep them again from being social. They’ll stop social activities. They’ll tell them oh, you’re a loner, you need to be alone, or you need to be alone, you don’t need friends. I’m sorry, what? Kids need friends. Sorry. That’s the way the world, but see, they don’t want anybody having any influence with them. Or they don’t want that child to recognize how completely dysfunctional they are. So, the more experience they get, the more you’re going to realize, Oh my God, my mother is completely dysfunctional, and you’re going to want to get out of there. Um, they also engage the more dark triad they are, they also engage in emotional incest, basically. So, they will overshare with either the daughter or the Son, and usually, it’s with the son, but they will overshare tell them too much. Involve them in a divorce and, you know, try to do parental alienation. Narcissistic dads do that too. So, in their inappropriate, you know, it, they’ll infantilize the child. So, for example, I’ve got one case where the disordered mom is continually trying to find reasons to make the teenage son sleep in her bed with her, and the son, thank God, is like onto it. And he’s like, nope, not happening. Have a nice life. And he’s also old enough now to be like, you know, I’m going to go live with the other parent. Thank you.

Kris Godinez  28:04

But do you see where I’m going with that, they do things like that they want to infantilize, and they turn the children sometimes into another spouse. That is so messed up! That is so messed up! Kids or not to be adults confidants. That’s not the kid’s job, you know, and they’re also not a substitute spouse. And they’re also not a substitute breadwinner, you know, especially when they’re a kid, like a kid, like under the age of 18. So yeah, narcissistic moms will do all of that. If the child gets a job. Okay, let’s say the kid is like, I want out of this situation, I want to save up my money. I want to get out of here, with the narcissistic mother we’ll do is as soon as the kid gets a job, oh, we’ll all deposit your money for you. All take care of your bank account for you. Oh, yeah. They’ll she’ll take care of it. All right. She’s going to take care of it all the way to Bloomingdale’s. You know what I’m saying? But do you see where I’m going with that? They’ll go spend it,  they’ll go spend it, they’ll go spend it, that child will have no money, sound familiar?

O M G, which then sets up the kid all of this all of this emotional neglect and weirdness. And you know, everything else sets the kid up to recognize and feel familiar with an abuser. So again, if we don’t deal with the parent that we had the hardest time with, are all of the parents if they were both disordered. Then what happens is that inner child inside of us goes, ooh, somebody who kind of started reminds me of mom, I know if I can make that person love me, and they can be male or female. Doesn’t matter. If I can make that person love me. I prove mom wrong. Half of a doo-doo sandwich, half of a doo-doo sandwich, total doo-doo sandwich. And so, this sets us up. This is why if you recognize any of this behavior, get to a trauma therapist, the disease to please Harry Braiker, self-esteem workbook Glenn trolley, see PTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. These books are going to save your life. You need boundaries with these people hold on. Oh my gosh, I’m running out of time and there’s so many good articles.

Okay, with sons of narcissistic mothers. They try to make you a mama’s boy but like, not just a mama’s boy like, oh, you know, my son loves me so much, but like a mama’s boy like you can’t do anything without her, kind of thing. You may end up with a demanding narcissistic female as a mate or male as a mate. Okay, if you become successful mom is pleased because you reflect well on her you assume that women should admire you as well. But where is the empathy required for good relationships? So, there’s no they don’t teach how to have a healthy relationship.

Daughters of narcissistic mothers, okay, the mom needs to be the center of attention, competes with the daughter, tries to put her down, tries to outdo her in everything, especially sexually or physically. Mom tells you time and time again. She’s a great mother. Most kids, most kids believe mom’s story or simply choose not to take her on. It’s too costly. down deep, your self-esteem is damaged because you haven’t been validated for who you are. Instead, you’ve been ducking her judgments or pleasing her. When you try to individuate, it’s a fight. Absolutely. Okay. Narcissistic mothers can also produce children that become perpetual people pleasers. So, I’m saying the disease to please. Okay, and of course, they go for partners that resemble the person that they have the hardest time with.

So basically, what the rest of the articles are about is how to deal with a narcissistic mother. And the answer is always the same. You have got to have boundaries, like nobody’s business. And I mean, like rock solid. No, and I mean it like that kind of boundary like No, and I mean it and be willing to weather, whatever storm they’re going to have when you say no, because they’re going to come unglued when you say no, and you don’t allow them to manipulate or control. The other thing is, you got to be willing to go no contact. Somebody who is that cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. I mean, really, truly that cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, that chaotic, that drama filled, that nasty, that resentful, that filled with vitriol you don’t need in your life, it doesn’t matter that it’s your mother. That’s not a mom! She may have given birth to you. But you pretty much raised yourself, really, when you think about it. So, it’s you really have to look at what’s stopping you from going no contact. And generally, what stops kids from going No Contact is fear.

So, healthy moms are supposed to be there for the kid. They’re supposed to be maternal healthy dads; paternal wants to be involved in their lives and our support full and healthy and happy. Narcissistic moms only are interested in destruction. They’re only interested in manipulation and control and causing problems. And if that parent is doing that, go, no contact. You cannot fix them. Because you didn’t break them. They all tell you did. Oh, you’re the reason I can’t retire. You’re the reason I’m having a hard time. You’re the reason blah, blah, blah blah blah. Remember, narcissists love to blame everybody and anybody around them rather than take a look in the mirror and go, maybe I’m the problem. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, if somebody is doing that to you, go no contact. I know the fear is there. I know it is. I know it is because the fear is, oh my God, but then I won’t have a mother you never did. Let’s be clear. You never did. You may have had a mother Clucker. But you never had a mom. You didn’t if that mom is interfering in your marriage, if that mom is putting you down, if that mom is filling you with fear, fear, obligation, guilt go, no contact  Life is too short. And there are so many wonderful people out there. You don’t need this person who’s trying to make you feel obligated and guilty for living your own life. So, okay, hold on. Let me just make sure I got all the basic.

They instill toxic shame. They’re emotionally unavailable. They’re control freaks. They’re in competition. So basically, you have to get over the codependency; you’re not going to die without them. You’re not, in fact, you’re going to flourish. You’ve got to understand their shaming messages. And you’ve got to believe in yourself, work on the self-esteem, replace the internalized negative maternal voice, the internal critic, with the self-nurturing with the self-loving with the mirror work. Hi, good to see you. Have a great day. It’s so good to see you. Go be awesome. I love you, and then walk out. So that’s the reparenting yourself because they have literally installed tapes in our head that play over and over again. Not good enough. Oh, boy. Why did you say that? Oh, thank you for your input. Shut the bleep up. Why? Because I say so. I’m not listening to you, critic. I am good enough. Why? Because I say so. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, you’ve got to replace the internal critic that you got from that narcissistic mom or that narcissistic parent with the internal cheerleader, which is what you should have had growing up. So good parents are cheerleaders. They’re like, go you! But they will also call you out on stuff they’re not going to just be like, you know, here’s a prize for showing up. They’re going to be like, Hey, you screwed up. Let’s talk about this. Do you understand where you screwed out? Okay, what can you do differently next time? They guide the kid; they don’t just smash the kid, which is what abusers do. You know, they they’re very much into rubbing the kid’s nose and what they did wrong, as opposed to let’s use this as a teaching moment. Do you see where I’m going with that? So anyway, all right. Um, all right.

So, there is that there’s a bunch of articles on psychology today that I pulled from. They’re all really good. And basically, every single last one of them boils down to go no contact, you cannot. You’ve got to have boundaries; you’ve got to take control of if you choose to see them or not and have an end time so that they don’t manipulate you and do self-care. Because, you know, leaving a toxic mother is hard. Because that… our instinct, our first love is our mom, really because you know they’re supposed to be nurturing us and taking care of us. If you don’t have that, though, and you’re still afraid of losing that even though you didn’t have that that’s when you need a therapist to help you see you never had that. Go, no contact. Save yourself. You cannot fix them. Because you did not break them, not your job, resign. The benefits suck, and there’s no vacation. Do you see where I’m going? Dear Mom, I quit. I can’t fix you, the benefits suck, and there’s no vacation. I’m never right with you. Guess what? Go pound sand, and good luck with your miserableness buh-bye. Trot it out to the barbecue. Read it out loud once burn it. Let it go.

Kris Godinez  37:53

Start letting go. Start letting go because you can’t help them. They are dedicated to being miserable. Life’s too short. Life is too beautiful. There are too many awesome people out there. Don’t hang around somebody like that. Even if it’s your biological mom. Okay, great. She gave birth to you. And? And what else has she done? Oh, she’s been nasty and put you down and in competition, and okay, you don’t need that. Thanks for giving birth to me, and we are done here. Thank you. Because they’ll throw that back in your face as well.

Okay, let’s take some questions. Good lord. Okay, lots of questions. Why would a non-mom say nasty things like your sister thinks you’re nuts? Because they want you to believe, you’re crazy. Gaslighting. Your sister may or may not have said that. Your sister may or may not have said that. So, they will put words into siblings mouths, they’ll put words into other people’s mouths. What I do… so that’s triangulation of communication. It’s a game of operator. The narcissist is playing the operator. Do you remember operator? Where one person would say something and by the time it got to the end it was completely twisted. This only needs to go through a narcissist.

So, what will end up happening is the narcissist wants the target of abuse to feel less than. So, they’ll say what they think but they’ll blame it on some other family member or friend, or total stranger. Well so and so think you’re nuts. Really? Let’s get them on the phone. Let’s see about that. Second, I do that nine times out of 10 they backpedal so fast. Because they know if you get on the phone with this person that they’re saying, you know, well so and so said such and such about you. Really, let’s get them on the phone. I’d like to hear that out of their mouths. That takes some cojones, and narcissists don’t expect us to have cojones because they’ve tried to make sure we didn’t. So that generally stops them. So, if you call it out, and if the person did say you’re crazy. Okay, well, I’m glad I heard it from your mouth. I can believe that. You said that now and you still don’t have to believe it. So, remember, the narcissist is trying to tear you down. They’re trying to push their agenda, which is your less than your crazy. It’s not them; it’s you… bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. So, when somebody tries to do a triangulation of communication and like get them on the phone, get them on the phone. My shoulders are big enough. I can take it if they want to say stuff to me. They better do it to my face. You know what I’m saying? So yeah, so don’t be afraid, narcissists. They absolutely want us to be terrified so that we don’t act so that we don’t challenge them. So that we don’t assert ourselves or stand up for ourselves. So, stopping that triangulation of communication that is a boundary, and that is taking care of yourself, and that is self-care. And if the person really did say that, okay, I know you’re flying monkey, I now know not to have anything to do with you. Have a nice life. Bye bye. Do you see where I’m going with that? The fear is what stops us. You’ve got to give the middle finger to the fear. You really do. False Evidence Appearing Real. If somebody is going to believe the worst of you. They sure as frickin hell don’t deserve the best of you. Don’t you give them the best of you. Hell no, they don’t deserve it. Do you see where I’m going with that? So there that is hope that answered that question. All right.

Do narcissistic mothers enjoy humiliating their children in public? Yeah, yes. So, narcissists will do whatever it takes to feed their need. Some of them you’ve got to remember. Oh my god, I just finished watching. Like, I literally like binge-watched signs of a psychopath. Because I think it’s fascinating. I really do. And in every single one of them, and they were dealing, of course, with like serial killers and serial rapists and things like that. Every single one of them was a sadist, every single last one that will because you can’t hurt somebody and enjoy it and not be a sadist. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, a lot of times, the dark triads are sadistic. Now not every dark triad is going to express that way. A lot of them get off on the manipulation. A lot of them get off on the Machiavellian, you know, like who can I control and look how powerful I am. But the sadistic ones. Yes. They absolutely enjoy humiliating their own children in public all the time. It makes them feel powerful. It makes them feel, you know, oh, look, ha ha ha I put this kid down, and I embarrassed them. Look at how great I am because they’re crazy. Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, the ones that do that are absolutely sadistic. You betcha. And they do enjoy it.

My mom always had to create a scene in public. Yeah. Because attention, even as an adult, to convince others. I was such a horrible child. Oh, yeah. Because that’s their narrative. That’s their narrative and what they don’t understand. This is how stupid narcissists are. Shall we just get down to brass tacks here? This is how stupid they are. So, they think by putting down their own children, that they’re going to look good. You raised them. So, what are you saying? What they’re doing is they’re putting out their own self-hatred. They’re putting out their own self-hatred. They are projecting every nasty thing that they are saying about their child is really about them. So Oh, my child is so easily led. Oh, my child is so stupid. Oh, my child. No, they’re talking about themselves. Pretty sure a lot of people are on to the narcissist. Thank you very much. You’re projecting their project they’re talking about the UU gets right, so there’s two fingers pointed outwards. But dear Lord, there’s six pointing right back at the person saying the nasty things they are talking about themselves. So, if they’re accusing a child of being easily led, or stupid, or not being able to think for themselves, or whatever, they’re talking about themselves. They are not talking about that child. It feels like they’re talking about that child to the child. That’s why you’ve got to get with a good trauma therapist and hand all this crap back to the narcissist. It’s not yours. Never was put that luggage back on that carousel because it ain’t yours. Put it back. So, in Pete Walker, I think it’s chapter three C-PTSD from Surviving to Thriving he talks about you know give it back to them hand back their shame, hand back their anger, hand back their lies hand back cuz it’s not yours. Write them a go-pound sand letter.

Dear abusive mom. Your little temper tantrums in public only prove that you are the one that is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Have a nice life. Guess what? Every rotten thing you’ve ever said has been about you, not about me. Go pound sand. And don’t ever contact me again, taking my power back, raising the rent, get out of my head. You don’t get to live up here. rent free. One more second. Buh bye, now Buh bye. And trot out to the barbecue. Read it out loud once and burn it or take it into your therapist more get through. So that’s what I want you to do with that. Okay, where are we? Mm hmm. And it fits their narrative. That’s why they do it. They love scenes they do, the crazier they are, and possibly the more comorbid they are with borderline. So, you can have a narcissist that is comorbid with borderline personality disorder. And oh my god, that is a recipe for disaster. They love scenes. They love to rage. They love an excuse to rage. They love an excuse to have scenes. It makes them feel powerful. It gives the attention to them. They can’t see what the rest of us see, which is, oh, no, there’s crazy going off again. Oh, see where I’m going. They don’t get it. They don’t get it. They don’t get that it makes them look bad. All they know is that it makes them feel powerful. Why? Because anger is the easiest emotion to access. And as part of our fight-flight freeze or fawn response. When we’re about to go into a panic attack. People do one of two things. They either do the stereotypical panic attack, or they turn into the Incredible Hulk. So, it is a fight-flight freeze or fawn response. But if you’ve got personalities on board, there’s also addictions usually onboard; people become addicted to the endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine is to get released when they rage. Yep. So that’s part of the reason why personality disorders do the raging. It’s addictive. It makes them feel powerful and releases all these feel-good chemicals. When in reality, it just makes the situation worse, and nobody likes them. And nobody wants to be around them. But they can’t see that. So anyway, there it is. Okay, where was I?

Okay, my narcissistic mother would always compare me to other children. Yes, they absolutely do that. Again. It’s the gaslighting. They want you to believe you’re less than they want you to believe you’re not good enough. They want you to believe that… you know, this other kid is better than you. No good mom ever does that. No good mom ever does that ever. Not on this or any other planet. She would always be like, Why can’t you be like them? Do they not understand that their own behavior affects how children react to them? No, they don’t hon. They have about as much introspective as this cable. I’m not even kidding you.

Kris Godinez  47:47

They absolutely will not like will not, like will not take responsibility for anything. Nothing. They’ve said. Nothing they’ve done. It’s always somebody else’s fault. Because their ego is so fragile that they cannot accept responsibility. That is one of the key things of a personality disorder is the inability to accept personal responsibility. Everybody else who is normal, by the way, goes Gee, what’s my part in this Gee? What do I need to work on? Oh my gosh, maybe I should go see a therapist. But narcissists are like. I don’t need a therapist. Only weak people go to therapy, no, dummy. Only stupid people don’t go to therapy because everyone else knows that they need help. And Healthy People ask for help. Right? And narcissists don’t. Because, and they put it down because they know they’re going to be found out. They know that a good therapist, if a good therapist can be there is going to be like, yeah, that’s not normal. You’re the problem. And they don’t want to hear it. They do not want to hear it. And that’s why they don’t go to therapy. Or if they do go to therapy. They’ll go like three times. Oh, I’ve been to therapy I’ve been I’ve been to therapy three times. Yeah. And the reason you quit was, oh, the therapist started holding you accountable? Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s what they do. They go until the therapist holds them accountable, you know, or doesn’t put up with their BS or doesn’t allow them to control the situation. And then they book out. So um, okay, hold on. They don’t understand that their own behavior affects the kids, and they won’t go get help for it. And that’s why demanding a therapist to go to couples counseling is a disaster recipe, it is. Because what they’ll do is they’ll take everything that is said in session and then flip it around and use it against you.

And this is why we need to have parental alienation in the DSM because when psychological evaluations are done, a properly trained therapist that understands parental alienation is going to recognize the charming narcissist, the charming psychopath below. They’re going to recognize that the calm, cool, collected client and the one that’s a nervous wreck going oh my god, oh my god oh my god is that that’s the victim. Hello, that’s the target. You know they’re going to see all of that. And that’s why we need to have better training in the judicial system in the family court system and the law system in in in the colleges, the churn out counselors etc. I’m sorry, I’m going off on a tangent. Did I answer that question? No, they don’t understand that how they act affects how kids respond to that. They don’t get it. They think their god Literally. Literally, they think they are the voice of God. They really do, especially if they’re a communal narcissist, and they use religion to control and manipulate, or they think they’ve never done anything wrong thing in their life.

My dad, for example, he would he was so stupid dear God, he would do things like get completely lost, like literally high, you know, high ground the car in the middle of a riverbed somewhere. And he would be like insisting he wasn’t lost. And we’re sitting there looking at him going well, do you know where we are? We’ll no. But I’m not lost. I’m only temporarily confused. And he thought that was funny. I on the other hand, was preparing to die out in the wilderness. You know what I’m saying? There, they just cannot ever accept responsibility for anything. So, like, they’ll be caught red-handed. And be like, Oh, no, that wasn’t me. Yeah, it was.  I mean, that was the one thing that came home watching signs of a psychopath over and over and over and over again, is how often therapists are dealing with not just narcissists, but dark triads, which are psychopathic, narcissistic, and control freaks. So, you know, it’s like, there needs to be better training in this. There needs to be more training in the fact that these people don’t take responsibility. They don’t think they’ve ever done anything wrong. They will, they will deny even when they’re red-handed. So again, you know, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard stories, and I’ve seen things where the abuser was abusing the kid, and then he is telling the kid, I’m not doing this, this isn’t me. But, yeah, they do that because they can’t, they can’t take personal responsibility. They can’t. Hmm. Okay, I hope that answers the question.

All right, a mother who is jealous that their daughter is paying attention to other family members rather than helping them, are they narcs? Well, they can be. My mother-in-law acts this way with my sister-in-law. So narcissistic moms and narcissistic mother-in-laws are insanely jealous when they are not the center of attention. So, like, if the if the daughter-in-law is paying attention to her husband, the mother-in-law get jealous. You know, if the daughter-in-law is hanging out with friends, the mother-in-law will get jealous. If the daughter-in-law goes out and gets herself food to eat for lunch and brings home stuff for everybody. The mother-in-law will sit there and tell the spouse up. Your wife is spending all your money. Really, they do that, they absolutely do that. So, narcissists have to be the center of attention. They have to be. They’ve got a sense of grandiosity. It’s like, it’s all literally it’s all about them. And they will often say that. This is how stupid they are. They will give themselves away by literally walk into a room and literally saying, it’s all about me, I’ve seen them do that. I’ve literally seen them do that. Now they think that they’re joking. But there’s something about their psychology up here. There’s something mis-wired in their brain, where they tell people exactly who they are and what they’re going to do. And they think they’re being clever and hiding it with joking. And it’s like, the number of times when I used to do couples counseling that somebody would walk in and be like, Oh, I’m here. It’s all about me. And I’m like, Who? Okay, this is going to be interesting, you know, because they’re counting on people not trusting their gut, and they’re counting on people not being educated on this. So. So I don’t know whether the mother-in-law is actually a narcissist because it could be traits of. So, the thing of it is, is that the DSM is looking at putting personality disorders on a spectrum, which is they should, it should have been this way the entire time. But it takes time for groups to figure it out. So you know, there’s traits of down here, little traits of but then as you get further and further down the spectrum, and it’s like, all 10. You know, it’s like this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, then it’s malignant, then it’s like full-blown, it’s like yeah, you’re Yeah, This is who they are, this is what they have, you know, that kind of thing traits off can be worked with if they’re fleas, they can be worked with if it’s a bad behavior that they learned, it can be unlearned. But if it never gets addressed, and they are just allowed to continue the bad behavior they’re just going to slide on down the spectrum. You betcha. So anyway, hope that answered the question. I don’t know if she’s a narcissist. But I would definitely go online, go to the Mayo Clinic. Look up narcissism read the, read the symptoms. I mean, I don’t want to do it right now because I’m running out of time. But read the symptoms. And if she matches five or more, is a good possibility more than a possibility. So anyway, there, that is alright.

Is it possible for a child of parents with strong, dark triad personality traits to be misdiagnosed? As on the autism spectrum, when they’re actually strongly lagging behind and socially anxious? Yeah, it can happen. I mean, I can’t tell you the number of times kids get misdiagnosed with borderline when in fact, it’s trauma. Hello, yeah, they’re acting out. They’ve got some maladaptive behaviors because they’re traumatized by the abuser hitting socially inept. Yeah, if you don’t have a good clinician if you don’t have somebody who knows they’re a hole from a hole in the ground. Yeah, there’s going to be a misdiagnosis. You betcha, hang on a second. I think we have another thing. So um, yeah. So, you just Yeah, it is possible. It absolutely is possible. And I strongly encourage everyone this is the thing that has always annoyed me when I was going through school is that some of the professors who are narcissists, by the way, wanted to keep therapy as this mystic secret that the general population could not know about. Everyone needs to know about this. So, if you’ve got questions about autism, go to the Mayo Clinic, look up autism, read the symptoms, go to the Mayo Clinic, look up narcissism, read the symptoms, you know, educate yourself. Education is freedom. Education keeps us from being abused. Let me just say that again. Education keeps us from being abused. The more you know about these types, the safer you’re going to be. Now, again, if you’re not a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a counselor, a therapist, I want you to educate yourself. But then, okay, let it go. Once you’ve gotten yourself safe and live your life, do you see where I’m going with that?

Kris Godinez  57:45

But for me, as a therapist, I constantly like I watched those shows, I’m reading a book on forensic psychology. It’s, this is what helps me keep my clients safe. And I think for the general public, they need to be educated. And what exactly is a narcissist? What is a psychopath? What is a dark triad? How do they behave? What do they do? What are the red signs? What are the red flags? You know? What are what are the flags, you should be looking for? How to protect yourself from one of these people? You know, and the thing of it is, is you have to… we’ve been groomed. We have been groomed to not trust our guts. We have been groomed to minimize; we have been groomed to oh no that they couldn’t possibly mean what they just said. Yeah, they do. They absolutely do. Narcissists, psychopaths say exactly what they’re going to do or exactly who they are. You’ve just got to hear it. And I think we need to get rid of that minimizing. We need to get rid of that not trusting our guts. That is the thing that gets us into trouble when we’ve been raised by a narcissistic mother. We learn very quickly not to see the pink elephant taking a crap in the corner of the living room because we pointed out we’re going to get punished. But here’s the deal. Being able to see the pink elephant taking a crap in the corner of the living room is going to keep you safe as an adult.

So, I encourage you all get educated on this. Read books on it read, read everything you can I mean don’t drive yourself crazy with it because some people dive too deep and they’re really not. They don’t want to be therapists or whatever if you want to be a therapist dive as deep as you want. If you don’t want to be a therapist, just get the basic knowledge so that you can recognize them coming a mile away and you can just sidestep them. You know what I’m saying? So, in this is the other thing narcissists often say Oh, I am a narcissist because they don’t get it! Seriously, they don’t get it so when somebody walks in and says I’m a narcissist, believe them the first time Yeah, believe them the first time.

All right, my love’s we are out of time. I hope this was helpful. Next week, we are going to be talking about chaos and drama and how to avoid it so and why they do it and all that sort of good stuff. So anyway, that is it. Thanks, you guys so much for tuning in. If this has been helpful, please hit LIKE please hit subscribe. Please share this with everybody. Let’s educate everybody so I can retire. That would be awesome. Oh, I’m never going to retirement I’m gonna work until I drop. Anyway, you guys have a great week and next week will be chaos and drama. Talk to you later. Bye

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