Do abusers use the “self-harm” card to control and manipulate? How do you tell the difference between a real self-harm threat and one that is about manipulation? Do you have a working knowledge of the way abusers use verbal abuse and derail discussions about their behavior?

Did you know that abusers often need a “harem” of supply and will often intentionally not introduce a target to family and friends so they don’t get caught two-timing? If you’ve ever been on the receiving end of a disrespectful eye roll and a dismissive “We’ve already talked about this!” then you have been an unwilling game participant of an abuser. Listen to this podcast on games they play so you can choose to opt out of their nonsense!

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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Hi, guys, so um, let’s see announcements. So, I will be in Vancouver BC May 20. So go to krisgodinez.com and you can get tickets there. I will also be in Portland, Oregon, July 2, which is a Sunday. So go krisgodinez and get tickets there. Let’s see. Do I have any other? I think that’s it. I can’t think of anything else. All right. So those are the two dates I have right now.

Um, and current events. So, as you can tell, I don’t know if you can see this I went I went back to Disney. I went back to Disney. Yes, I went back to Disney after I said I would never go back. Happy Easter.  To everybody who celebrates. Um, so I went back to Disney because my buddy Andrea, we’ve been going for years. This is like our girls’ trip that we do, and we go to Disney. So, I’m happy to report extremely happy to report. The magic is back. The magic is back. Iger has righted the ship, it’s going in the right direction. The cast members were happy. They were helpful. They were funny. Oh my God, it was a 180 From what I went through in May. So, I will be writing a letter to Bob Iger to thank him. But what was interesting was the ones that would talk with us and kind of talk about the Chapek dark history that they had to go through… Chapek made fun of anybody who had emotions, about the company or about the parks or about the characters or anything. He’s the one that started the whole damming or bagging on the Disney adults. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the adults are the only ones that have the money to do this. Thank you for you very much, kids don’t. So, it was interesting, because as we were talking to the cast members, they were like, Oh my gosh, they’re paying us better. They’re treating us better. We’ve got our perks back, you know, Chapek was like, Oh, you get to ride for free. They thought that was a perk, you know, and took away all these other perks.

So, I’m happy to report Disney magic is back the only thing I don’t like is that they are still doing the Genie Plus which I don’t like because why should you have to pay extra on top of already being there and paying so that I’m not crazy about. Andrea signed up for it. We did it. It did save on the on the lines, but then for special rights, like Rise of the Resistance and Minnie and Mickey’s Railroad. Yeah, they charge an extra $25. So, I didn’t like that. But what was interesting was, like I said, is it the cast members, were saying the Chapek was making fun of people who had strong emotions, making fun of the cast members that were passionate about their jobs, making fun of the cast members that, you know, enjoyed, you know, being with the public and talking to them in the Disney adults and things like that. So, I would posit that Chapek sounds an awful lot like what we talk about every week, not understanding emotions just couldn’t get it. And that’s what they said the cast members like it was like he couldn’t relate. He couldn’t get it. He made fun of them. He talked down to people that were passionate or had emotions. And there’s only one type of person that I know that does that. And you and I talk about that every week. So, you know what I’m saying? It’s not a diagnosis. I’m just saying if it walks like a narcissistic duck, and quacks like a narcissistic duck in takes a dump like a narcissistic duck, you’re probably dealing with a narcissistic duck. So, the good news is he’s gone. It’s gone. It’s the magic is back. The cast members were wonderful. They were lovely. They were they were so nice. And it was so nice to be back in that. That magic. It really was. So anyway, that’s what I wanted to let you guys know. So that was that’s what I did this week. So that is my current events because honestly oops my battery is dying. Honestly, it’s The company got run down by somebody who wanted to make their mark wanted to be known for making all of these amazing changes and this that I’ve saved the company so much money well at the cost of really bad press. And that’s what that’s what people who are not emotionally cognizant do. So anyway, that’s all I’m going to say about that. So, you it’s safe to go back to Disney now is basically what I’m saying. So, there’s that.

Okay, let’s talk about the games that narcissists play. So, I had several people writing in and going, what is the difference between somebody who self-harms, because they’re having a hard time expressing themselves and somebody who self-harms, to manipulate. Two very different things. So, let’s talk about that. So self-harming cutting, you know, burning, doing things to hurt yourself, that kind of thing. There’s, there’s two ways of doing it. So, when somebody has a difficult time expressing emotions, cutting is often a way to express that emotion, it’s not a healthy way to do it. Not a healthy way to do it. But it’s what they do in order to get that emotion out. Usually anger, usually sadness, not knowing what to do with it. So, they cut, and it’s a release, okay? And big, big difference between the way the abuser uses it and the way that somebody who is unable to express their emotions uses it. So, someone who cuts and is unable to express their emotions, if you ask them why they cut it very often, they’re like, I don’t know. Because they have a hard time expressing what they’re feeling. And so, this is a way of helping them feel it’s also a way to feel alive for them. Okay, if there’s a lot of trauma, this is a way for them to feel alive. Okay. Not a healthy way, not a healthy way. So, with cutters that are doing it to feel they often if you if you ask them to point blank, why did you do that? I don’t know. You know, and or they have a hard time articulating. And it’s because they have a hard time articulating is why they cut so that they can feel, and they can get it out okay. With abusers let’s be 110% Clear. And also, to going back too cutters the cut because it’s a way to cope with things. There’s usually a lot of shame involved in it, and they try to cover it up. Like I had this one client that came in middle of summer now please realize in Phoenix here, it’s 120 freakin degrees in the middle of summer, covered up head to toe. The first question I asked is, do you ever self-harm? And she looked at me like how did you know? And I’m like, You’re covered head to toe, and it’s 120 degrees outside. Let’s talk you know, and so we started talking through the family history and all the trauma and this, that and the other thing so, but that is an indication people that you know, usually cover them up and have some shame about him, you know, because the family shames them. So, it’s a whole it’s a trauma response. Let’s be clear, cutting is a trauma response cutting is a trauma response. Healthy people are able to access their emotion kids that have been shut down. Kids that have been abused kids that had a lot of trauma. Oh my gosh, I’m going to sneeze oh, maybe not. Okay, um, so kids that have been shut down have a lot of trauma, they tend to cut so and so there’s a lot of shame about it because the family shames them on top of all the trauma don’t get me started. So, the way an abuser uses self-harm is that they are loud about it, and they will tell the family or tell the target of abuse.

Kris Godinez  08:47

I hurt myself because of you. I did this because you if you leave me, I’ll kill myself. That’s their line of absolute manuer. So um, they so it’s a completely different reason why somebody trauma response over here, intentionally manipulating over here and I think this is where you know, abusers really use that that gray area. Okay. So, a lot of people have a mistaken thought that people that cut are manipulative know, they’re trying to express themselves. The difference is, is that with an abuser, they will be loud about it. And you made me and you this and you if you don’t do what I want, I’m going to hurt myself. If you don’t do what I want. I’m going to kill myself. Okay. Do you see the difference? So, it’s a manipulation on the part of the abuser it is not a manipulation on the part of somebody who’s been traumatized. That’s covering it up and trying to hide it and you know, just doing it to feel basically, abusers don’t feel abusers don’t feel. So, they’re using that as a fear tactic.

So, what they will often do so like For example, if there is an abuser who is drug and alcohol user, okay? They’re their drug and alcohol user, they’re getting thrown out of the house or they’re being asked to leave. What they will do is they will turn to whoever is giving them shelter. If you throw me out on the streets, I’m going to kill myself. Because they’re using that guilt, fear, obligation guilt, fear, obligation, guilt on the parent on the sibling on the friend on whoever is giving them shelter at that time, because basically they’ve worn out their welcome, they’ve you know, broken all every rule, stolen things, etc., etc., etc. And so, the parent, the family, the siblings, the friends, whoever says, Okay, you must leave, here’s your date. Well, if you throw me out, I’m going to hurt myself. That’s manipulation. That’s a threat. That’s an ultimatum anybody who gives you threats or ultimatums….hell to the no that is a manipulation 110%. So that is one of the games that they play, is that if you don’t do what I want you to do, if you don’t, you know, take care of me if you don’t do this, if you don’t do that, I’ll hurt myself, way different than a trauma response cutter. Okay, huge difference. So, okay.

All right. Um, oh, and I also wanted to say in July, I’m going to have Tara Cote come on and she is a master at she does tattooing to cover scars and things like that. So, we’re going to talk more about that in July, because I want her to come on, and explain how that is done. Because people don’t want to have those scars. So, we’re going to talk about it wasn’t tattooing. It’s like a, I don’t know, she’ll explain it anyway.

So um, okay. So yes, narcissists threatened suicide. I just saw that pop up. I’m going to answer that right now. Yes, they threatened suicide. It’s a manipulation. Now, they will do superficial gestures. So, let’s be very clear here. They will cut themselves and say, Oh, I tried to kill myself. But I can guarantee you it’s a superficial wound, I can guarantee you it would not have led to death. I can guarantee so they do things so that they are either found, or that it’s superficial. So, and they’ll let tons of people know, I am now going to kill myself kind of thing. Usually with narcissists, It’s when they have borderline on board as well. But let’s be very clear, this is not a trauma response. This is them being manipulative, okay? Because you’re not doing what they want you to do. Do you see the difference? Do you see the difference? Now, if somebody is saying, I’m depressed, and I just don’t want to be here, get them help. Get them help get them to a suicide hotline, get them to a therapist, get them to a DBT therapist, a CBT therapist, any therapist, get them to a therapist. But if somebody is doing it as a manipulation, do what I want or I’m going to kill myself that’s intentional. That’s a manipulation. Their gestures tend to be superficial, they’re not or they’re do it so that they can be found. So, you know, it’s not, it’s not real. It’s a manipulation, fear, obligation, guilt, do what I want, or I’ll kill myself. That’s what abusers do. So, I wanted to address that.

There’s two very different cutters, okay. Cutters who come from trauma, it’s a trauma response, they generally have a lot of shame about it, they cover it up. They don’t want to talk about it. It’s a way to for them to feel, feel something. Because when you know this when you’re in an abusive family, and they’ve shut you down, shut you down, shut you down, you don’t feel anything. And sometimes you’re like, do I exist? Because you know, let me give you an example. When I was in high school, and my dad was doing his weirdness in high school. Sometimes I would walk down the hallway and go, am I real? Is this real? You know, do I exist? Is this…? Because I didn’t. I didn’t feel connected. I didn’t feel like in my body. I didn’t feel you know, anything really, except fear. So yeah, it’s a way to feel now I never cut because I’m a chicken and I don’t like the sight of blood. But I think if that had if it had gone on, I think I probably would have I as soon as because I was suicidal when I was in high school. I absolutely was I remember very distinctly one night climbing up onto the slide and looking out and just going, you know, maybe I should just off myself because I can’t take this anymore. So yeah, so when you’re in an abusive relationship, when you’re in an abusive family, you go numb, you absolutely go Numb. So, cutting is a trauma response. It’s a way to feel it’s a way to relieve stress. It’s a way to feel anger. It’s a way to feel whatever. But unfortunately, it’s internalized. So, we take it out on ourselves.

So, if there are any cutters out there, get to a good therapist, get to a good therapist or start working Self Esteem Workbook. Inner Child Workbook, really start working with trauma book CPTSD From Surviving to Thriving, because you don’t need to take it out on yourself, and it’s okay to feel and that is the big thing. Feelings are frightening for children and adult children who’ve had family that just smashed ‘em, you know, it’s like, if you had an emotion and they made you wrong for it, why would you have an emotion, it wouldn’t be safe. So, get used to, it’s okay. It’s okay to have emotions, it’s okay to feel you don’t need to cut, it’s okay. So, get to a good trauma therapist to work on that. See and that’s the difference because somebody who is cutting usually recognize this isn’t healthy, I need to do something and then they go get help when it’s offered. Whereas with a narcissist, they don’t they’re not doing it to, you know, feel they’re doing it to manipulate, and they don’t go to therapy. And if they do, they’ll go one to three times and then their peace out and they never come back. So, there is that, okay.

All right, other games that they play. So, this Okay, so the one on cutting I got from talk about Talking About Self-Injury. And this is written by Anthony D. Smith, he’s a licensed mental health counselor. And I talked about how, you know, the language of self-injury is if you ask them, they’re like, I don’t know, or I was stressed or, you know, that kind of thing. self-injury is not always suicidal for the ones that it is trauma based. Okay. So that’s, I just wanted to make that clear. Anyway, that was a good article on psychology today.

All right. Now, games that narcissist play three ways that abusers use verbal abuse to control and derail discussion. So, the name of the game basically with abusers is power and control, power and control and how do disordered people get power and control? Fear. Obligation. Guilt, Fear, obligation, guilt. So, um, all right. So that’s it. And that’s why they do the whole I’m going to kill myself if you don’t do what I want you to do, etc.

Okay. So, if you are in a discussions, this is a game they play, when you’re in discussions with them, you’re trying to point out to them what’s going on? Okay, first, it’s never going to work because they’re never going to hear it because they’re never wrong. So, they focus on the right time. Well, now isn’t the time to talk about it now is not the right time to talk about now is not good. Well, it’s never going to be good for them. So that’s a game that they play, and they make it they make you feel like eventually there will be a good time. And there never is. So, every single time you bring it up, it’s Oh, now is not a good time now is not a good time. All right, Deriding the repetition. So, you bring it up again to them. So, what do they do? They roll their eyes? Not this again. You know, as if you had discussed it, which you haven’t, because now is not good, right? So, they roll their eyes, they get nasty, they Oh, you’re bringing this up again. That’s the past.

Kris Godinez  18:19

One, well, if it didn’t get resolved, it’s in the present. But they won’t see that because they don’t want to discuss it. So, they get what’s the word? I’m looking for snarky. That’s one word. But they are looking down rolling their eyes, contemptuous. Their contempt, they have a lot of contempt. And so how dare you bring this up again? Right, even though it didn’t get resolved, how dare you bring this up? This again? What’s wrong with you this again, so they’re kind of flipping the script, which is another game they play. And, you know, we’ll be bringing this up again, as if it had been resolved and it hadn’t, and that’s gaslighting. So, they do that.

Sleight of hand the blame shift. And when they do this, they see it they do word salad. So, word salad is the this again, and you’re always doing this and, and you know, this is your fault. Boom, there’s the shift. So, it was like word salad word salad, boom, it’s your fault. So that is something to keep in mind and verbal abuse need not involve a loud voice. They can be very quiet about it. So, it’s not always yelling sometimes it’s like, really this again. You always do this to me. Why do you always do this to me? Now it’s not a good time. And you know what? This was your fault anyway. Whoa, what? What the actual? Oh my God. That’s what they do. That is what they do. So that is one verbal game that they play.

All right, why narcissists play games. It’s up out power and control, like every single article. So, here are some examples of game playing, being hard to reach or ghosting, demanding that you respond every single text instantaneously. And this is again on Psychology Today. This is who is this by Darlene Lancer LMFT. And this is called Why Narcissists Play Games with Your Heart going hot in cold pursuing, than distracting, such as becoming slowed or to return calls or texts, or only sending short impersonal texts. And this is for like romantic, I want to make that clear. making promises they can’t or don’t keep. So future faking. So future faking is huge with our all when we get married, will have kids will have this great little cottage with a picket fence and a fireplace and two dogs and a cat. And, you know, they future fake, they have no intention of doing that. Or they don’t talk about the relationship at all. And they don’t want to talk about the relationship and all they cannot commit. That is something else. They do lying or being slippery and hard to pin down. That’s another game they play, basically, and this is what I’m going to be talking more about next week is the pathological lying because people are like, I don’t understand how can they lie to my face? How can they do that? We’re going to talk more about pathological lying, we’re going to talk about what to look for how to how to spot a liar, basically. So that one is going to be called lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. If their lips are moving, they’re lying. Maybe I should call it if their lips are moving. I think maybe that’s what I’ll do. If their lips are moving. They’re lying.

So, they play games like that they lie sometimes just to see if they can get away with it. Because remember, it’s power and control game. power. And control is the name of the game and fear. obligation and guilt is how they do it. Being very seductive and moving incredibly fast in the beginning, but then as soon as they have the person. The affection drives up. sex drives up, it’s gone. All right, refusing to discuss the relationship flirting in front of you. disrespectful, disrespectful. If you’re with somebody, you’re with somebody, you don’t take your glasses and go Oh, yeah. No, but they do. You know, they will actively in front of you ogle people flirt with them the whole thing. Why? Because they’re looking for their new supply, even though they’ve got the target. They’re always there. Like sharks, they’re predators. It’s like they’re always like, where’s my new supply? Where’s my new supply? Where can I get my new supply? Oh, look, there’s a new supply. And they’ll start and plus the fact they need a hero. They need a hero. They have a rotating list of people that they keep on the line. And they just go back through. So yeah, they did. dogface banana patch, honestly. Okay. Um, all right. To do to do okay, flirting in front of you, okay, hiding you from friends and family, they will not introduce you to their friends and family. That’s a huge red flag. And why? Because they don’t want to have to explain who you are. And they don’t want to have to explain why they’re introducing another person when they’ve got another person on the line. Do you see where I’m going with this? It’s all about smoke and mirrors. It’s all about camouflage. It’s all about. And so, what they do is they make the target of abuse feel less than, So the target of abuse goes, Hey, I’d love to meet your mom and dad. Oh, you know, no, I don’t think that’s a good idea. Blah, blah, blah. And then they keep putting it off. keep putting it off. You keep putting it off. And pretty soon the target of abuse is Am I not good enough to meet your mom and dad? What’s going on? How come you don’t want me to meet your family? How can we never hang out with your friends? Well, you’re their dirty little secret basically.

So, anybody who is unwilling after a certain amount of time of dating, to introduce you to their family and friends Houston there’s a red flag, there’s some sort of game playing going on. So, a lot of times these abusers are married, or they’ve got a girlfriend, or they’ve got some other supply over here, and they don’t want anybody else to know about the little harem that they have going on over here and this goes for female narcissists as well. So, it’s not just male narcissisrs that do this. Its females do this as well. So, anyone who’s unwilling to introduce you to their family and friends after a good amount of you know time yeah, that’s kind of a red flag you want to not kind of it is like withholding feelings, not being able to express them hello, or sex.

So stone walling. So, cutting you off stonewalling. I don’t I don’t want to talk to you. That’s a game play. That’s playing games because that’s getting you to do whatever they want. So, if you do something they don’t like, and they Stonewall, then that is a manipulation that is a way to make you hurt, so that you will be begging them for attention and so that when they you finally get their attention, you’re so grateful. You’re like, Oh, thank God. Because stonewalling activates the same. shunning activates the same pain centers as physical pain. So, it feels like being beaten up basically. Blaming you and playing the victim. That’s a game that they play Absolutely. 110% not being the first to call or text so they won’t be I cannot tell you the number of times. So, narcissists think that they are God. We know this, they seriously do. And they will not call family and friends. But then what they’ll do, and I’m thinking particularly of narcissistic in-laws, is that they will then be angry the next time you see them, Well, you never call me. You never write you never do this, you, you, you guns, that’s the game they play. So, narcissists never reach out, which is crazy, because they want the attention. But they don’t want to be the one to reach out to get it. So, they will wait until they see you in person and then make you wrong for not calling them. I cannot tell you the number of couples I worked with that had that going on with the in-laws that were narcissists. So yeah, they do the whole I’m too important to, Well, why should I call? I actually had one say that. Why should I call? Cuz the phone line goes both ways. Last time I checked, yeah. you hoser, you know what I’m saying? So, and that that was the BS, it was I’m too important to call. But you’re going to make them wrong for not no. So, no contact, no contact, no contact, if somebody’s playing that game.

Okay, so here are some more games that they play the narcissistic formula, You Get to Choose How You Lose. And this is by Jeremy E. Sherman a PhD. I love that title. I think it’s great. The narcissistic formula, you get to choose how you lose. So basically, here are some examples. Within my framing, you’re wrong frame it any other way. And you’re wrong. It’s like, they’ve got an idea about this. And if you say you know that you disagree with them. You’re wrong. That’s there’s no, there’s no.

Kris Godinez  27:46

There’s no give and take with a narcissist. There’s no back and forth with a narcissist, okay? They don’t have discussions, they have audiences, basically because they’re the king or queen. So, you can’t have a civil discussion with them and disagree with them. Because everyone literally has to think and believe the way that they do. I’ll give you an example. So, one time with a family member who I shall not name. I was making a grilled cheese sandwich. And some people make it with butter. I made it with mayonnaise. And because I made it with mayonnaise, this person would not leave me alone. Well, why are you making with mayonnaise? How dare you make it with I make it with butter. Okay, how nice for you. I do it with mayonnaise. And it was like, they couldn’t get it and it was driving him crazy that I did not do things the way they did. That is what narcissists do. And so that’s, that’s kind of an extreme example, but it’s kind of the same thing. It’s like you cannot have a differing opinion. You cannot have you know, on anything like from how to make a grilled cheese sandwich, to politics to religion to whatever.

Okay, number two, you lose because you didn’t meet my nitpicky standards. If I say you don’t meet them, you lose because you’re too nitpicky. What? Yeah, double standards galore. So, in other words, they’re nitpicky, you’re not good enough. But then if you say what they’re doing doesn’t, you know, meet your standards. Well, you’re too You’re too picky. You’re too this, you’re too that you’re too emotional. You’re too blah, blah, blah, hello. But to them, everybody around them has to be perfect. And that’s again, nobody’s perfect. Nobody is perfect. Considering all the framings mine’s the best because within my framework, my framing says it’s the best. So again, you can’t win. So, in other words, they’re like, you know, let’s say religion. For example. They’ll say, Well, my church says that you’re going to hell if you don’t believe that way, I believe. And if you can’t win you, you cannot win. Don’t try, don’t play. Don’t play. The best way to win is to not play!

My Passion for achieving greatness is the strongest, which proves I’m an expert on how to achieve greatness. If you don’t believe I’m the expert, just look at my passion. Anyone? Oh god. Yeah. So basically, it’s, yeah, it’s yeah. So, they’re basically saying, you know, they’re right. You know, I’m right in everything, everything you shouldn’t question me. How dare you? How dare you question. I know everything. And if I don’t, it’s irrelevant. So that’s another game that narcissists love to play is, I am the expert on literally everything right? You know, if you guys ask me a question, and I truly don’t know the answer, I will be like, I don’t know that. Let me go research it. And I’ll get back to you. Because I don’t know everything. I don’t. I mean, there’s some areas of psychology that are not my strong point. So, you know, yeah, yeah, it’s it. They are literally know it all. They know everything about everything. And half the time if you’re really listened to one of these Jack wagons, they’re talking out of their hind in, and they don’t know Jack diddly squat. But they figure if they do enough word salad, it sounds like they do. But you have to listen to the content, not just the context, you have to listen to the content. What are they really saying? Is it word salad? Does it make sense? Do they really know what they’re talking about? Oh, hell no. So yeah, that’s something that they love to do. I will get to the questions in just a moment.

Okay, so this is something that cult leaders do any law that hampers me proves that I serve a higher power. So, cult leaders will hide behind religion and use the religion as an excuse to abuse their kids, you know, Spare the rod spoil the child. I can’t tell you the number of times I heard that, and I was a kid. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard abuse survivors say that their parents you know beat the crap out of them and then said the Bible told them to Yeah, or some religion told them to I’m not picking on Christians. I want to be clear here. Abusers will use whatever religion suits their purpose. Okay? Whatever religion suits their purpose to abuse. Alright, so communal narcissists use that the cult leaders, you know, that kind of thing.

I always win because when I lose, it doesn’t count. So never play board games with these types. They will Oh, my God. This did not happen to me. But listening to my clients when they were kids that they had a parent that was narcissistic. If they played a board game, the parent would start cheating in order to win because they couldn’t stand losing like I kid you not like narcissist to them. It is like, they cheat at board games. Yes. Absolutely. it to them. It absolutely they have to win, and they will ruin it for the kids and cheat. And you know, upset the table if they don’t win. And in throw the board game around. I mean, the stories, the stories, and then people wonder why I loved going to Disney because I don’t have to think for days. That’s a wonderful thing. So um, yeah, they absolutely are terrible. Which is why when I hear that there are good parents out there the play board games with their kids, their kids love it, and they can’t wait to have board game night. That makes me so happy because that means that the parents are better adjusted, more adjusted, you know, and they know that it’s not everything has to be a win, right? So, you know, you win, you lose. That’s the way of life. Hello. So okay, so that I’m almost done with this, hang on, and then we’re going to get to the questions.

I always win. And if I lose, I win because I got your attention. So, they blow up, they have a fit, they throw things they whatever they get to live rent free in your head. My rash extremism is heroic, and challenging me is rash. So any challenge to them is considered a personal attack by them. And they will twist it word salad and then twist it so that it’s all your fault. So just keep that in mind. I know exactly what you should do. And if I fail, remember, no one knows anything. So basically, that statement is like, I’m absolutely right. I’m absolutely righteous. I know what’s best for you. You don’t know yourself. I know you better than you know yourself. I cannot tell you how dangerous that statement is. No, no, no. Oh, Aloha Pamela! No, you know yourself better than anybody else because you live with you 24/7 365 24/7 You know you better than anybody else. And that includes therapists because you live with yourself. That’s why a good therapist meets their client where they or, and goes into their, what they’re experiencing as opposed to let me tell you where wherever you know, you know, it’s like me now there are times when you have to be like reality check. But it’s like you meet them where they are, and the client knows themselves better than anybody else. The client knows themselves better than anybody else.

So, when a client comes to me and says, Hey, this book isn’t working, okay, let’s try this one. Because it’s not working for, I’m not going to sit there and be like, you know, it’s like, read it! Well, let’s find one that works, you know. So, abusers will come in and say, I know you better than anybody else. I know what you should do. And if it fails, oh, wasn’t my fault. Well, you obviously didn’t do it, right? What? Those are the mind games that they play so that no matter what happens, you are always wrong. Like, seriously, like, they will do that, you know, it’s like, I know what you should do, you should do this, you need to do this. You got to go do this. You better go do this. You go do it. It turns into a disaster. Well, it wasn’t my fault. You did it wrong. What? You know, it’s just like, when my dad forced me to go into cosmetology, he was like, well, you need a backup job. Okay, well, I can work as a secretary, I’d rather be doing that. Thank you very much. So, you know, he forced me to go into secret into, I’m sorry, into cosmetology. And, you know, it was like, Well, I know what’s best for you… And um, you know, looking back on it, I should have told him to go stuff it. Because that was not best for me. I did not enjoy it. And I had allergies and no, so yeah, they do that. No, they don’t know what’s best for you. They don’t know you, you know, you. You know you; you know you trust your gut work on trusting your gut work on acknowledging, yeah, my guts telling me something’s not right about this. Okay, I’m going to honor that. I’m going to listen to that. That’s what’s going to keep you safe. So. All right. So those are the games that they play. So, I hope that that was helpful. All right. Anything else? Any last thoughts on that? So, remember, I just want to recap.

Kris Godinez  37:11

With the self-harm. Generally, again, when its trauma based, it’s to feel so that they can release stress. And generally, if you ask them, they’re like, I don’t know, I was stressed, I don’t know. They’re having a hard time expressing themselves. With an abuser, you did this to me, you made me You made me That’s their favorite hue and cry, you know, or if you don’t do what I want, I’m going to go hurt myself. If you don’t do what I want, I’m going to fill in the blank. They’ll also use threats, let’s be very, very clear. If the more antisocial they are. They’ll also threaten you, you know, if you don’t do I want I will hurt you. So, believe them, if they make a threat like that. This is the thing about narcissists, psychopaths, Machiavellian, dark triad, they basically tell you what they are going to do, or how they are going to manipulate if you’re listening to it, but you have to be trained, you have to know that these are games, you know, you have to know that none of this is normal, or healthy or whatever. And unfortunately, our society does not teach the Yeah, this is how these people manipulate. Now, let’s get to the questions. So, there’s a big difference. So, this is to the ones that do it out of trauma, or to feel something because they’ve been smashed down so much that they don’t feel and it’s a way to feel, and it’s to relieve stress and things like that. And that can be worked on, which is good. Get to a good trauma therapist. When it’s a narcissist doing what they do is, I’m going to hurt myself, if you don’t do what I want you to do. If you don’t do what I want you to do, you know, oh, look, I hurt myself. It’s all your fault. Yeah, that’s what abusers do. It’s a manipulation. It’s fear, obligation and guilt. And they do that to force the parent or the partner, or the friend or whatever to toe the line. So, if there’s any sort of condition involved, it’s manipulative. Okay, over here, there’s no condition involved. They’re doing it to feel over here. There’s a condition involved. Does that make sense? So, there is that all right. Okay, so those are all the games, and I would seriously go look up those articles and read through them because that’s the games that they play. That’s what narcissists play in order to manipulate and control and to always be right. So, you know, and watching a person play a board game tells me everything I need to know about them. If they’re having fun, and it’s great. Okay, cool. This person is okay. If they’re, you know, angry and competitive and they have to win. Oh, Houston, we got a huge problem. You know what I’m saying? So there that is, okay.

Do narcs threaten suicide? Yes. My late narc. Mother was often threatening with suicide when I was younger. And when she was old, she kept saying She had enough wished she was dead to get sympathy. Yes, absolutely. It’s how do I explain this. So, it’s, it’s a way for them to get attention generally what I have found not always because every case is different. But in the cases where someone did attempt suicide, they didn’t say a word. They didn’t say a word, not a word. And with older people, when you know, they’re getting ready to kind of go like, crossover, they start giving away you know, really intensely personal items. That’s not suicide, that’s them getting ready to go, you know, like, pass on. So, they start giving away items but with somebody who is truly intent on killing themselves, they don’t they don’t tell people they don’t tell because they don’t want to be found. They don’t they don’t want to be interrupted. So yeah, so when some when narcissists do it again, it’s an ego thing. It’s a sympathy thing. It’s a look at me thing, it’s you know, and it’ll be a superficial gesture. If they do it. A lot of times, it’s all do it. I’m going to do myself; I don’t want to be here. Nobody loves me. I’m going to go to the garden and eat big, hairy, scary worms. You know, whatever. That’s kind of what narcissists do so, narcissists remember, they can flip back and forth between how they do their narcissism. So overt is over the top. Look, I mean, look, look at me. Covert is the victim. It’s the constant victim. Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. You know, nothing is ever right. Oh, look, this went wrong. Oh, look, that went wrong. You know, they’re always talking about the negative and they’re always, you know, looking for sympathy. You know, pay attention to me, give me sympathy. Oh, poor you. That’s what they’re looking for. Those are covert ones. Communal ones, like I said, use religion. Any religion could be Buddhism. It could be new age, it can be I mean, there’s a whole bunch of cults out there that are new agey, and Oh, lord. Yeah, that communal narcissists that, you know, tell their followers to kill themselves and you know, drink Kool Aid and all this sort of stuff. So communal Narcissists Yeah. So, they can flip back and forth, depending on what gets them what they want. It depends on what works, basically. So, they’re manipulative in that they can flip literally, from overt to covert to communal.

So, if the overt stuff doesn’t work, they’ll flip to the victim stuff. Poor me. And then, oh, God told me, you need to do what I want. Because God told me, you know, that kind of thing, or Buddha or whoever. So yeah, they flip back and forth between whatever they think is going to get them what they want. And generally, the covert ones go for the sympathy. So, do they do this suicidal ideation? Yes, absolutely. If they do a suicidal gesture, it’s going to be superficial, because a narcissist cannot imagine the world without them. Yeah, they’re that narcissistic. You betcha. Okay.

Um, do narcissists. Say. You said certain things while they said it. Absolutely. Well, they said it themselves earlier in the conversation earlier in the day, it seems narcs accuse you of saying things saying things, especially in front of others, yes, that is gaslighting. So, they will have said something. Or they will say Oh, you never told me that when you’ve told them 100,000 million times, gaslighting Oh, I never said that. Oh, no, You never said that. Oh, they never said that. You know, they, they gaslight so that’s gaslighting and they will do it in front of an audience. So, remember, the more overt they are, the more they need an audience. They need somebody to cheer them on. They need somebody to play to, so they enjoy starting stuff in front of other family members. This is why family gatherings are often a minefield, I think, especially you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, maybe Easter. But you know, which is today, but they need an audience. And so that’s why they will start. I mean, I can’t tell you the number of times my dad would out of the blue literally decide that he was going to hit me for apparently no reason. Just because I said something he didn’t like, or I don’t know, I looked at him wrong. I don’t know. In the middle of dinner, like a family dinner. He would just backhand me. And the one that comes to mind is we were we were eating outside. There was family over and he did it again. And I don’t know what I said that he didn’t like the boy howdy. He backhanded me and he was a big guy who’s six, five and he had hands like frying pans. And he backhanded me, and I was like yep, I’m done. And I went inside. I got my purse. I got my car keys and I started to drive off and my mother threw herself on top of the car. Couldn’t get any more dramatic than that. So yeah, they do. They absolutely they ruin they ruin be clear. They ruin family holidays. They ruin anniversaries, they ruin birthdays, they ruin everything because they can, and they can’t stand happiness. They love chaos. We talked about that last week. So yeah, that’s they do that type of thing. You betcha and they will say things you know, that’s gaslighting. Oh, you never said that. I never said that. They never said that. Blah, blah. I didn’t know you did. So yeah, that’s gaslighting. And they will go to their graves insisting that they that you said it when they did. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. They accuse and we’re going to talk more about this next week. They accuse people around them the target of abuse, especially of the very things that they are doing. So that’s why they’ll you know, you will know you said that I didn’t say that horrible thing. You said that horrible thing. Or, you know, I never you know, I never said that. You said that or use you said blah, blah, blah, and you never did you know, or I never I don’t remember saying this when they did you know, or they’ll accuse you of having an affair when they’re the ones having an affair. So yeah, there’s this whole gaslighting thing going on. They basically tell you what they’re doing by how they make accusations. You just got to listen and know what to look for. You know, it’s like, when you get accused of something like that. You’re so shocked. You’re like, what? No, I’m not. What are you talking about?

Kris Godinez  46:33

It doesn’t even cross your mind that hey, they just told you what they’re doing. But that’s what you got to look for. That’s what you got to look for. Okay, um, all right. And they do need an audience. Absolutely.

Okay, mommy, dearest texted me today with a photo of my narcissistic daughter and granddaughter saying she thought it was me. Instead of daughter. I’ve been no contact for 13 years with my mom any response are just No. No, if you’ve been no contact, do not resume contact. So, I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, they will out of the blue send you Hey, I miss you. Hey, how are you doing? Hey, I was thinking about you. Oh, here’s a picture of you when you were a kid, you know, they will do that in order to get you back in contact with them because you’ve been no contact for you know, a decade or more. So, they will do things like that do not respond, do not respond, do not respond. So yeah, they will. They will do that. They absolutely will do that. Okay. All right. Okay, there’s a question up there. I definitely want to…

How to deal with them turning everyone against you. Okay, so that is the smear campaign. I’m going to get to another question in just a minute. That is the smear campaign. So, here’s the deal. People who are willing to believe the worst of you do not deserve the best of you. So, if somebody is willing to believe the abuser and they’re absolute you don’t need them in your life. You do not need them in your life. I would start working the Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi. I would start working the Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker. Get your boundaries up have your list of deal breakers in a deal breaker. real serious deal breaker is anyone who sides with the abuser is out. Like no second chances  bye now. Buh bye. Okay, you don’t need them in your life. So, turning everyone against you. If they’re turning family members against you, those family members should know who you are. And if they don’t, you don’t need them. Family is not always blood. Go make your own family if the family is disordered and they’re siding with the abuse, be done kind, go, no contact. Same thing with friends. Same thing with colleagues. Same thing with whatever it’s like you do No, we do not negotiate with terrorists. Okay. If they’re willing to believe the worst of you, they certainly don’t deserve the best of you. So be done.

Let them go. Write an angry letter. Dear Family friends, whoever that went with the abuser, bleep the bleep bleep bleep bleep out of bleeping BLEEP you go pound sand. You don’t get to live in my head rent-free one more second. Thanks for playing. Have a nice life and bye Have a nice life. I mean, go beyond sand. Trot it out to the barbecue. Read it out loud once burn it let it go and work on your self-esteem work on your list of deal breakers. No disrespect no lie. No siding with the abuser No cheating, no stealing, no gaslighting, no name calling. You know, those are all huge. Okay. So, if somebody is willing to believe the worst of you, they don’t get the best of you. There you go.

All right is a learned helplessness again, ab-so-freakin-lutely not being able to do anything themselves? Yes. Oh my god. Oh, thank you Sarah. Um, yes, it absolutely it is absolutely a game. Absolutely. It is a game. It is a game. They do know how to do stuff for themselves. They just don’t want to. So, my grandmother, Bertha, oh god, she was a nightmare. She was my mom’s mom. She was absolutely a narcissistic, POS. Abusive, not nice. didn’t like her. Oh my god. She lived with us from the time I was 10 until I moved out. So, she would constantly play the victim constantly. Oh, I’m so feeble, I’m so old. Okay. Because if you turned your back, she was moved around like crazy. She could get around; she could get around. She just was trying to make everybody wait on her. And she insisted on that she would demand that the entire family wait on her hand and foot and my mother did and I’m like What is wrong with you? She is out dancing when you’re turning your back. You know, I mean, seriously. So? Yes, they learned helplessness is absolutely a covert narcissistic way of doing that. It is a game. They do it to see if you’ll if you’ll play the game. Don’t absolutely do not and make them do it themselves. Absolutely don’t play the game.

So, something that got brought up is they do take away everything every relationship. The dog, the cat, the youngest brother, the youngest sister, the oldest sister, they do they take it away. Absolutely. They want us to be isolated. So that we depend on them and them alone. Were so they were miserable there they are miserable people. They’re evil. 110% they do abuse pets and Tap Dogs and cats and take them away from us. And oh, no, you can’t have it. You don’t have the right situation all take care of it. But then the dog or the cat gets killed, which has happened more often than not, or they don’t take care of it well, or whatever. And they break off every relationship that we’ve ever had, whatever family members, they turn people against us. They lie, lie if their lips are moving, they’re lying. So yeah, absolutely 110% they do that. And that is a game that is a game. Isolation game. It’s like, I’m going to see who’s on my side. And if I have more people on my side, you lose. That’s exactly what they’re doing. So, when they’re doing the smear campaign, and they’re trying to turn people against you, they’re sitting there taking tallies of who’s on their side. Seriously, so don’t play, you just cut them off, you’d be done. It’s like, okay, you want to side with an abuser pound sand, bye, bye. But that is the best way to do that. So, there is that? I hope that answers the question. Okay, it looks like we’ve got them all.

So next week, I want to talk more about the lying I want to talk more about trusting your gut when they start lying because then we get that feeling. You know, it’s kind of like wait a minute, this doesn’t feel right. And then they gaslight you and say oh no, trust me, trust me. You know, and you can’t so we’re going to talk about more about the lying. So, if their lips are moving, I think is what I’m going to name it. If their lips are moving. They’re lying. So, we’re going to talk about the lying we’re going to talk about pathological lying, it is not in the DSM, but they do that, so it just drives me crazy. Anyway, so there is all that I hope you guys have a great week Disney is safe to go back to I am so happy Thank you Bob Iger and damn you Bob Chapek. So anyway, have a great week and take care of yourselves Drink plenty of water and I will talk to you next Sunday and we will be talking about if their lips are moving. Alright guys, take care. Bye

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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