Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

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All right, let’s get down to the nitty-gritty, shall we? gray rock. So, this is basically what we’re going to be talking about today. So, this is going to be a review for some of you. And for some of you, this is going to be brand new information. So gray rocking, what is gray rocking? How do you not react when a narcissist is or an abuser is, You know, what do you, how do you how do you not react? It’s hard. Let me just be perfectly honest with that. It’s really difficult to not respond or not react when somebody is in your face poking atcha lying about you, lying to you, etc, etc, etc. So there are times that you do gray rock, and there are times that you do not.

So gray rocks, gray, gray rocking grade rock, the gray rock is all about not reacting, not responding. Okay? So, if you’re in the middle of an abusive relationship, you can gray rock to a certain extent, but be very careful. And here’s the reason why. So, when you gray rock, it means that you do not react do not respond. Now this is going to take practice. Because when they’re in your face, and they’re accusing you of X,Y and Z, that inner child of yours is going to want to pop up and go. But that’s not true. But, but this that the other thing but, but and this happens even after you leave them and we’re going to talk about that. So it’s working on that inner child and understanding that all of their projection remember I talked about ego defenses. I think that’s when I did the weird thinking. So it’s ego defenses, okay, so when they project and they’re accusing you of everything under the sun, they’re talking about themselves. When they say horrible things to you, they are talking about themselves, they are not talking about you, but it feels personal. So you’ve got to get to the point where you understand when these Aholes are opening their mouths, they’re lying. If their lips are moving, they’re lying. So and they’re projecting and they’re accusing you of the stuff they’re doing. They’re saying vile things about you, which is really what they think about themselves, but since they can’t acknowledge it or accept it, they spew it out over everybody else. So, it’s really learning how to not rise to the bait. And that’s what they’re looking for. You have to understand. narcissists slash abusers slash malignant, borderline, need drama, and chaos, the rest of us like the rest of us need air seriously, if they cannot have drama and chaos, they will manufacture it and the more psychopathic they are remember, dark triad psychopath narcissism Control Freak Machiavellian. So, the more psychopathic they are, the more they need to manufacture chaos so that they can rage.

So, remember, one of the key aspects of an abusive relationship is this out of the blue raging just like crazy raging. Now, if they’re crazy raging, you don’t want to respond but you also don’t want to completely gray rock because you don’t want to keep pushing them to elevate so it’s, it’s walking a fine line.

Kris Godinez  04:22

The best thing to do honest to God if you are in an abusive relationship get the hell out.

Grey rock is not going to fix it. Gray rocking is not a long-term solution. It is a short-term solution to either get them to drop the subject or lose interest in poking at you, or it’s a short-term solution as you are exiting the relationship. Okay. It’s also used once you’ve gone… left the relationship is also used to deal with them in the ensuing custody divorce case. In high conflict, yay. So gray rock is used.

What gray rock is that no matter what they say, no matter what they do, you don’t give them an emotional response. You do respond, but you don’t just you know, what are you saying? Bla bla bla bla bla so basically they’re looking for the response they’re looking for you to be upset. They’re sadists let me get this through your guys’ head. These people are sadists. Healthy, normal people don’t rage. Healthy, normal people don’t have time for raging. Healthy, normal people don’t treat people like doodoo Okay. These abusers love the rage. It is their addiction one of their many. So they are addicted to the anger because the anger jacks up the endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, noro epinephrines the whole thing and it makes them feel powerful. And that’s why they roar. And then they love the reaction that you give them. Your tears are delicious to them. You’re trying to explain to them is delicious to them. I know I just got goosebumps I was like, Oh, gross. Yeah, that’s what they do. They are sadists they enjoy inflicting pain, they enjoy it don’t get an angry just talking about it, Damn! Because I because they do it to kids, they do it to their spouses, they do it to anybody they think they can get away with it with. away with it with.

Kris Godinez  06:28

That’s an interesting sentence. Anyway, the point being is, is that they enjoy it, and they look for reasons to come unglued.

So with grey rock, you use it so that they start raging and you’re not giving them anything. You’re just not responding. Oh, okay. What do you need, you know, that kind of thing. So there’s no emotion connected to it now will this make them escalate? In some cases? Yes. Because if they’re violent, they’re going to they’re gonna escalate no matter what you do, you could do the absolute right thing, and they will still escalate, because they’re crazy. Let’s be clear here. In the history of ever, not one of these people had ever cured, been cured of this, okay, in the history of ever. So, they look for reasons to abuse, they look for reasons to come unglued. They look for reasons to rage, they look for reasons. So you could be doing all the right things, and they’re still going to do what they’re going to do, which is why I’m saying if you are in a violent relationship, or any kind of abusive relationship, and you need to get out, get with a good trauma therapist, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline, get out, you cannot fix these people, they do not change. Listen to me now, believe me later, they do not change, they will not change, there is nothing on the face of the planet that is a big enough a Whap upside the head to get them to change. They don’t. They don’t change, they get worse, they get worse with age, their abuse gets worse with time, they keep pushing the envelope because it makes them feel powerful. And they want to see how far they can take it. And remember, ultimately, their goal is to kill you, either emotionally, spiritually, or physically, or all three, that’s what they want, they want you dead because they’re angry as hell, that you have something that they will never ever have. And what you have is compassion. What you have is joy, what you have is light, and they will never have that and they know it. And so initially, they get together with their target, thinking that they’re going to suck it out of them and become them. And then when they realize no, they’re never going to have that feeling or joy or anything else, then they start getting angry. And that’s when the devalue and discard starts. And that’s when they start trying to kill their partner, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, whatever.

So, gray rock is not showing any emotions. So recently, and part of the reason why I wanted to do this particular subject, I’ve had a bunch of people in my practice and also writing in, you know, oh, it’s not fair. They’re doing this. So they’re doing that and I just didn’t I told them what I thought…. But then they came back with this and I’m like, oh, people listen to me now. Believe me. Responding, stop reacting. That’s what they’re looking for. Seriously. That’s what they’re looking for. They want that emotional response. If you don’t give them an emotional response, they get bored. They do. Now will they escalate some of them? Just to try to see if they can get you to respond. You doesn’t mean you have to explain this. It doesn’t mean that you stonewalled them. It just means you don’t give them an emotional response. Does that take practice? Oh, hell yeah. Practice in the mirror. If you have to practice in the shower if you have to. Run scenarios through your head and practice not getting emotionally hooked. So they’re, they’re fishing, they’re, they’re fishing, they’re fly fishing, they’re out there going, is this one gonna get it is this I’m gonna get it, I got, you know, and they’re thrilled when they hook us stop rising to the bait. Once you see what they’re doing, it’s a game for them, it makes them happy to hurt you, they enjoy it seriously.

So, gray rocking is used short term or long term, once you’ve left the relationship, if you are in the relationship, use it short term to get them to drop whatever they’re trying to start.  See where I’m going with that. And sometimes it doesn’t work. I got to be perfectly honest, sometimes the great rocking doesn’t work. A lot of times it does, though. So it’s just another tool to have in your toolbox that you can pull out when you need it. But it’s not meant to be used long term. So I had somebody write in and say, Well, I’ve started gray rocking them. And I’m just going to stay in the relationship because now I know how to deal with them. And I’m like, oh my god, no.

Kris Godinez  11:11

If you please love yourselves, please work on self-esteem. If you’re having to gray rock, somebody, that’s no way to live. That’s no way to live. It’s inauthentic. Number one, because you’re having to not be emotional. And really what you’re doing is you’re getting down to their level. They don’t have emotions the way you and I have that. They don’t express emotions the way you and I express emotions. They don’t understand compassion. They don’t understand karma. Don’t get me started. They don’t do you see where I’m going with that. So, if this is what you’re thinking is going to get you through the relationship. Dear Lord, please get with a therapist, please, please get with a trauma therapist and get the hell out it is grey rock is meant short term, to stop an argument to stop and abuse to stop whatever drama, they’re trying to start to get yourself through until you can get out with the goal being getting out. And then once you have left the relationship, you will have to continue to use the no emotion with them. Especially during a divorce or custody battle or whatever.

And with the flying monkeys, because remember, flying monkeys, minor narcissists themselves or people who are just completely clueless. And the way you know the difference is, is when they try to get information and you go stop. And I mean it. I’m not this, this is not if I find out that this is going back to them. We’re done. And if it goes back to them be done. Okay. So people who are clueless about abuse and you educate them on it, once they realize what’s going on, they’re like, horrified, and they’re like, Oh my God, I didn’t realize I will stop talking to that person, etc. Anybody who sides with the abuser, they’re a minor narcissist themselves, and they’re enjoying the drama that the narcissist is creating, and they’re ferrying back and forth, you know, messaging, trying to get the drama going, and then they sit back with a bucket of popcorn and watch and you know, get their jollies. So grey rock is short term, it is not meant to be a long term thing.

Caveat unless you’ve left the relationship, you’re in a divorce. Now you’re in a custody battle. It is a high conflict divorce, high conflict custody battle, and then you continue to use gray rock. Now this this comes back to Suzanna Quintana. Okay, Susanna, survivor, been there, done that. And this is one of the topics we’re going to talk about in our seminar, which is going to be online, October 16. So, and we’re going to iron that all out this week, and I will get that up on my website, which is krisgodinez.com. If you are interested in signing up for the seminar, also new dates for meet and greets. I’ve got Prescott coming up. I think it’s August 13. And then September 3 is going to be San Diego and Andy please leave that in so people know to go to krisgodinez.com If they want to sign up for meet and greets. Or the seminar. So where was I brain gone? Ah, okay. high conflict, divorce, high conflict custody, they will send literally 500 pages, emails, just novels, damning you for everything that’s happened in the relationship, especially if you were the one that was like, yep, peace out Sia, I’m gone. You can’t harm me anymore. You know what I’m saying? They get very angry when their favorite punching bag leaves. So if they’re, you know, sending you this, you know, novel, they’re expecting you to respond to every single nasty line because that’s what we’ve done in the past. So over sharing, so gray rocking is a cure for oversharing kind of

So, when we are with an abuser, we are trained to over explain, we are trained to explain ourselves for everything. And this usually comes from the family of origin, it usually comes from a dictatorship of a parent that demanded to have an explanation for everything. And then again, again, no matter how  we explain, no matter how logical they would punish us any way. So it’s that inner child, the inner child is the one that has the hard time with gray rock because they want, they want to be heard. They want to be seen, and they want to be believed that’s really what they want. But what they’re not understanding the inner child, that person, those abusers, either family of origin, or the romantic partner don’t care, they’re just looking for an excuse to abuse you because it makes them feel good. How sick is that? So that sick that somebody would get off on that.

Kris Godinez  16:00

So, the point being is, is that the inner child is the one that wants to explain the inner child is the one that feels the injustice of it. Is it in unjust? Yeah, you bet. It’s crazy to be accused of X, Y and Z, right? So, but, and you are wasting your breath explaining to them all you’re doing is you’re handing them ammo to be used against you basically anything and everything you say can and will be used against you A. in a court of law, and B in general, they will then take that out. Remember, I talked about that last week with the medical records, they will take whatever they can that you’ve told them or explained to them, and use it against you. They’ll twist it, okay. They, they flip the script, and they twist it and they’re the victim, and you’re the bad guy and you cannot win. There is no winning with them. You’ve got to understand their whole thing is not win/win or equality or anything. It’s they win, you lose, no matter who you are, whether it’s a boss, a family member, you know, because they have to always be right literally, they have to always be right. Always they always in their heads win because if they don’t win, it’s a catastrophic ego. Ego wound, ego wound to them if they’re not winning, so you can’t win with them stop trying, the best thing to do is gray rock, get your ducks in a row and get the hell out. These people do not change they will not change they won’t change.

So there were a couple of articles that I read that I really liked. One of them was the price and the payoff of gray rock strategy and this is on psychology today. And it is by Darlene Lancer LMFT. And it’s just it’s just basically a you know when degree rock risks of gray rock, which I’ve already talked about hidden dangers, how it can help all of that that’s a really good article. So that is the price and pay off of gray rock strategy by Darlene Lancer LMFT.

And then the other one, how to use the gray rock method to repel narcissists and other toxic people. And this is blunt therapy by Randy Withers, LCMHC. So here’s what I wanted to ship. Don’t reveal your strategy. I cannot tell you the number of times that people it’s the inner child is the inner child, you’ve got to comfort the inner child let the inner child know they cannot share things with the abuser. So I’ve had a lot of clients in the beginning of their therapy when they’re still in the fog and the whole thing. Tell the abuser that they’re leaving, so the abuser will poke them, poke them, poke them, rile them up, okay. The inner child is now involved. And then they go Oh, yeah, well, I’m leaving you, I’m seeing a therapist, and I’m doing this and I’m doing that… well. Now they’ve just told the abuser, everything and the abuser is now going to set about to make sure that they don’t leave that they can’t see the therapist that there is no money, etc, etc, etc. You can not listen to me now believe me later. You cannot tell your abuser what you’re doing. If you’re going to do gray rock, you don’t say Oh, I’m gray rocking you. What do you think you’re going to get out of that?

Kris Godinez  19:29

I think a lot of times honestly, it’s the inner child hoping, seriously that somebody hears that and that they go oh my god, they’re going to gray rock me oh, I need to stop being a jerk. baby dolls. It isn’t gonna happen. They’re not going to get it. What they’re going to do is they’re going to learn everything they can about gray rocking and they’re going to use it against you and they’re going to Stonewall you and they’re going to say that that’s gray rocking and they’re going to you know, it’s just stop telling your abuser what you’re doing. It’s going to backfire. Listen to me now believe me later. Listen to me. Now, believe me later, stop telling your abuser what you’re doing. Stop telling them your plans, stop telling them how you’re protecting yourself because they will take it away from you in some way, shape or form because that’s what they do. Don’t reveal your strategy. First of all, it is important that you don’t tell the person that you’re gray rocking that you’re gray rocking them, if you tell them what you’re doing, you give them the incentive to take it up a notch. And you don’t want that the whole goal of gray rocking is to calm it down. The gray rock method is kind of like the Fight Club. The first rule of fight club is you do not talk about fight club. The same thing goes for the gray rock method never admit to gray rocking to do so defeats the purpose.

Number two, keep it short and sweet, toxic people thrive on chaos and drama. And I’ve said that 100,000 million times. Stop feeding them with your words and actions. Limit your interactions with the narcissist in particular and try to be as bland as possible. You can do this by speaking in neutral tone of voice and make your responses short and sweet use yes and no. And I don’t know without further elaboration responding with Uh huh.

Kris Godinez  21:21

And hmmm works too. Sometimes things get complicated. Sometimes you don’t have a choice. If you have to work on a project with a co worker or raise a child with a toxic ex spouse, it takes a bit more finesse. That’s very true. In these cases, respond briefly, when you have to talk to them. Don’t include unnecessary details end the conversation as soon as possible.

So let’s go back to you divorced, okay, you get this ginormous email from them with you know, 500 pages of just BS, right? And one line about the kid, unfortunately, you are going to have to learn to go through the email and search for what’s about your children or child and only respond to that. They’re fishing. They’re chumming, the waters, they’re trying to see if you’re going to bite. So that’s why they do this, you know, 500 Page BS about how horrible you are with one line about the kids, you know, or the child or whatever. And so Suzanna, the thing I want about Suzanna is that she works with people who have already left the relationship. And she teaches them how to go through those emails and not get triggered, because it is triggering it is because their whole intent is to rile you up, get that inner child riled up so that the inner child explodes and writes back. I believe I have talked about this, my dad, and his first wife had this on going exchange of snail mail because it was back in the day before emails, and they wrote nasty letters back and forth to each other. She was defending herself, he was accusing her of stuff, she would defend herself, he would accuse her of stuff. This went on for 45 years. Who Yee hoo ha ting Tang, Walla, bing bang and you know what I’m saying? Honestly, 45 years, ain’t nobody got time for that. So they were both obviously disorder. But the point being is if you keep feeding the bear, the bear will keep responding. It will keep attacking, stop, feeding the bear, you do not need to defend yourself against these people in their lies. What you need to do is go no contact as soon as you can. But if you’ve got a child or children, you learn to only respond to what is necessary. Everything else you ignore, and use family wizard, use one of those applications where you get everything is documented, it cannot be erased. And that way you can catch them in their lies because the more you don’t respond to their BS, the more they start, you know, spinning things up. And it’s really easy for the attorney to just kind of go through and go Huh, there we go. So, use family wizard and don’t respond to anything that does not have to do specifically with either the divorce or with the children and if it’s something that’s nasty, and you know, it’s about the divorce and they’re you know, you’re a  blah, blah, blah, you don’t need to respond. The divorce decree is done. Y’all are divorced, he can complain to the judge. But you don’t need to tell him that you just don’t respond to it.

So basically what narcissists do is they throw a pot of spaghetti at the wall and they want to see what’s going to stick. Don’t respond, don’t let any of it stick. That’s what they want. They want you to come unglued. Work related questions from toxic co workers should be handled matter of factly. And the same with co parenting. If there’s a question On co parenting matter of fact no motion share only information as needed no opinions, no emotion co parenting with a narcissist requires a similar strategy. Keep discussions limited to childcare visitation and logistical matters.

Kris Godinez  25:13

Try to communicate on the phone hmmm, I disagree, don’t communicate on the phone keep it to written only and here’s the reason why, eventually you’re going to go back to court, I have yet to see a divorce happen with one of these highly contentious narcissists that didn’t end up back in court every year every two years. You want to use family wizard or some other application where all of the emails are kept and can’t be erased and can’t be modified and all of that because eventually it’s going to go back if you if you do stuff on the phone, I can guarantee to you they’re going to engage you and he said she said situation they’re going to you know, twist things… get it in writing everything needs to be in writing do it through family wizard that’s the best way to do it because then you catch them in their lies and you also the judge gets to see exactly how nasty they are. Does that help in some cases? Yes. And in some cases no because like I said half of the judicial system is a bunch of freakin narcissists. Anyway, but the whole point being is don’t do it on the phone. Always get it in writing. Always get it in writing.

If you have to talk to them. Stick to boring things bland boring. Hey, how about them Dodgers? Hey the weather you know they can’t stand they can’t stand boring become boring become boring to them. What they find exciting is emotions specifically negative ones coming from you. Okay, they like I said your tears are delicious to them, your anger is delicious to them, your sadness is delicious to them, your frustration is delicious to them become boring to them. That’s what you want. And again, this is a technique to be used as you’re exiting Okay, as you’re you know, just to get through and get out and get safe. Okay, this is not long term. This is short term. This is short little bursts of gray rocking in order to get through a car ride. Get out of the relationship, deal with them, you know, with a divorce etc, etc. Become bland and boring. Not talking to them is the best option going No Contact is really what you want. Don’t ask the toxic person anything! Questions invite further interaction and betray interest. If they keep trying to get a reaction. Remember to detach yourself avoid taking the bait. This means ignoring accusations anger and tantrums or even sadness. They’re crazy guys. They’re crazy. They’re sadistic and they get this smirk on their face when they know they’ve landed something mean or nasty or vicious or they’re awful, horrible, terrible. I’m not even going to call them human beings.

So yeah, feed them a strict information diet. Knowledge is power. Do not share any information about yourself. Anything you feed a narcissist is ammunition for them to use against you remember, and they will. So even if you’re responding to something nasty that you’ve said in the family wizard, don’t Toad because they’ll latch on to that and be like, see, see she’s just abusive, or he’s just abusive as is. She says I ever he says I am blah, blah, blah. Don’t respond. I know it’s tempting. And I know you want to get justice. And I know you want to be heard and I know you want them to get it. They are never going to get it. There is no there, there. Let me say that again. There’s no there. There. There’s no emotional cog. There’s no compassion. There’s no sense of gee, maybe I shouldn’t do this. Seriously. Their intent is to feed their ego it is 100% ego up there. There is no there there. Stop trying to find the there because there is no there there. Alright, so back to this and then we’re going to hit questions. Okay. Restrict restricting their access to knowledge. You protect yourself from further toxicity. Again, do not tell them you’re leaving. Do not tell them what your plans are. Don’t tell them you’ve hired an attorney. Let them find that out organically. You know when they’re served. Don’t tell them Jack diddly squat. They don’t need to know. They don’t. So stop giving them information. Disengage whenever possible. Avoid eye contact. Look at something else if you can. That’s generally if you’re dealing with coworkers and things like that. Looking at something else is a helpful way to draw their attention from you.

Kris Godinez  29:59

So they’re seriously that old thing of what’s this draw their attention to something else. You can do that they have the attention span of the net sometimes, um, if you were at work focus on your computer screen or your notebook while they are talking to you at home, check that the dinner you have in the oven. Or if you’re in the car, fiddle with the radio station start Googling things on your phone. Of course, then they can use that and say you’re not listening to me. Oh, no, I’m listening to you know, whatever. If there’s nothing for you to focus your attention on turn your thoughts inwards recall a pleasant memory remembering your last vacation or think about someone you actually enjoy talking to know that point. You’re probably doing the Uh huh. Uh huh. Huh. Responses. Meanwhile, in your head, you’re, you’re in Italy. So they’re just Yeah, so gray rocking is used short term. Does it work? Yes, in the short term, it’s not meant for long term.

What to do if the gray rocking method doesn’t work, if a toxic person gets upset, oh, if a toxic person gets upset, it means that it’s actually working. And that’s very true. So when you start Gray, rocking them, initially, they will start escalating, trying to get you to respond. And when they see you’re not going to respond, they generally give up. So, it takes a while, but you’re training them, you’re training them, you’re basically like, Nope, I’m not going to respond, Nope, not going to respond, no, not going to respond. But like I said, with super violent ones, the ones that are just looking for an excuse to beat you, they’re going to use any excuse. So, you got to be really careful when you use the gray rock method. You may not be able to cut contact permanently, but temporarily removing yourself from the situation is often the next best option. So, say, for example, you know, they’re, they’re on it, they’re looking for a fight, they’re looking for whatever, if you can leave the room. If you can go somewhere else, if you can go outside, if you can, you know, get away from them. Seriously, if you’re stuck in a car, it’s a little different. You can’t but try to change the subject remain as calm as possible don’t rise to the bait, that’s what they’re looking for. Okay. And then as always, if you are in one of these relationships for the love of God, and all that is holy get out love is not enough, it’s not going to fix them, it’s not going to heal them, you cannot fix them because you did not break them seriously. So you’re going to want to leave the relationship as soon as possible because the longer you stay, the more information they gather and the more they can use against you, the more that they can manipulate you and the more your sense of self gets completely eroded. So if you’re in one of these relationships, please get out get with a good trauma therapist. Start working on the self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi CPTSD, from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. The disease to please by Harriet breaker, which is about codependency, any and all of the books that I’ve mentioned are great books. I have a whole list of them on my Facebook page, which is we need to talk with Kris Godinez on Facebook. So go look up the books there. I mean, literally, I have like, I think I have like 50 books up there that you can read. Let us dive into the questions. I think that was the end of that. Yes, it was. So that was on Blunt therapy. And that was the name of the title of the thing was how to use grey rock method to deal with a narcissist. And that was by Randy withers. LCMHC? So that’s a great article. I really liked that. Okay, let’s hit the question. All right, hold on, I’m going to have to make this bigger.

Okay, my ex. My ex borderline personality disorder person broke up with me that he is in the process of writing letters to some of my family to heal things between them. What? Ego connection to me, okay? So here’s the deal, you cannot control them. They are going to do what they’re going to do. Basically, you can let your family if they are supportive, you can let your family know, hey, the ex is going to be writing your letters. I don’t want to hear about it. Don’t tell me not interested, you know, that kind of thing. So they’re trying to get Flying Monkeys is basically what’s happening. So it’s, it’s, you know, they’re pleading their case and they’re trying to get flying monkeys and it’s connection. So you basically don’t know I don’t want to I don’t want no, I don’t know I don’t want to know what they’ve written. I don’t want to know what they’re saying. I’m just warning you ahead of time and I’m letting you know right now. If you’re going to be a flying monkey for them, you and I are done. period and you just don’t because you know real family does not act as a flying monkey.

So why does going away and crying make them more enraged?

Kris Godinez  34:55

OH, this is common. So a lot of narcissists, when they’re going partners starts crying like showing a genuine emotion It enrages them. Because they can’t feel the only emotion they got down is anger. Anger is the only emotion they got down. It’s a primal emotion fight, flight, freeze or fawn. So they get angry, like really hugely angry when somebody shows a genuine emotion of sadness, because they don’t feel it. And it makes them angry because now they have to do something about it. How dare you? How dare you ruin my day? By having an actual genuine emotion and crying? How dare you? It makes them angry. It makes them uncomfortable. They don’t know how to cope with somebody else’s emotions. They don’t have emotions. They don’t recognize their own emotions. They don’t. And they especially hate it when somebody else has a genuine and it could be happiness. I have seen abusers when somebody is having a great time and enjoying themselves intentionally ruin it, because they were angry that they couldn’t feel that joy. So anytime there is a genuine emotion, they come unglued. If somebody walks away from them that takes their power away from them. It takes their power away from them and they get angry. How dare you not stay here and take my abuse. That’s what they’re saying. Like, that’s crazy. But that’s what they’re saying. That’s what they’re thinking in their head. Their ego got hurt, they got an ego wound. They’re angry that you walked off, they’re angry that you were like, No, when I mean it and left and wasn’t going to sit there and take it. They want you to sit there and take it because they think they’re all powerful. They think they’re God, they really do. So that’s why they get angry when people leave or when people cry or are happy or laugh or Oh my god. I mean it. It’s like I said, it’s not just the crying that makes them angry. It’s the joy. It’s the joy. I can’t tell you. I mean, I’ve got a loud laugh. I’m a loud person. I’ve got a loud laugh. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had embittered total strangers, I’m out with friends. And they come over and they’re like, You’re laughing too loud. And I’m like, well, you’re too bitter. Have a nice night. Bye. You know, it’s like, that’s bizarre, because I’ll tell you what, I’d rather hear somebody laughing and having a good time than somebody being angry and nasty and mean and hurting other people. How is my anger hurting you? Oh, that’s right. The devil runs from laughter Well, there you go, saying not. So do you see where I’m going with that? So they hate any genuine emotion and laughter, joy, sadness, any genuine emotion. And then if you’re angry, that just gives them that ramps them up. They literally feed off of it. So yeah. So that’s why they do what they do.

What’s the appropriate use of gray rocking with a boss or co worker? I think I kind of answered that. You have to work with the boss, you have to work with the coworker. You don’t give them any extra information. So one of the things I’ve seen people do again is they overshare because they’re trying to ingratiate themselves. They’re trying to get the approval. They’re trying to you know, have that boss like them. So, they think that if they tell them personal things that the boss is suddenly going to be like, Hey, buddy, you know, and oh, this doesn’t work that way. So that’s your inner child. Inner Child workbook Catherine Taylor inner child workbook Lucida, Cappachione there’s other inner child workbooks, go look at them find one that resonates with you and get that one and start working it so it’s the overshare you don’t want to overshare so with coworkers that you know are not safe, not good not you know, whatever. Information only, nothing personal. Absolutely nothing personal. You do not share with them. Excuse me, your personal life. You don’t there’s no reason to. So don’t share with them anything personal, you stick to what’s going on facts, figures. That’s it, you make yourself as boring as possible.

Kris Godinez  39:22

And you make it all about the job, the project, whatever with the boss, you got to learn to … since they’re all ego, if they’re a narcissist, you got to learn to walk that fine line of kind of stroking their ego but not really a bit kind of just enough to keep you under the radar is basically what it is. And it’s exhausting. So if you’re working with a bunch of narcissists, find another job. Look for another job. Seriously. I mean, it’s so funny. I had this conversation with a fellow social worker. I’m not a social worker, but she’s a social worker, and health care. And we were talking about how much better it is to be in private practice because you don’t have to deal with those types. But if you do have to deal with those types, you find a way to get along, but not give yourself up. And it’s exhausting. And that’s frankly, that’s why I like being in private practice because I don’t have to deal with corporate you know what I’m saying? And or insurance companies that are manned by people that don’t have two brain cells to rub together that don’t understand mental health issues. So, you know, is it if you can get away, if you can get a different job, if you can’t, then you find a way to stay under the radar, stroke the ego of the boss, just enough to stay under the radar, with the coworkers kind of the same thing, but you stick to the project facts, figures, make yourself boring, make yourself boring, they’re looking for a scapegoat, they are looking for somebody they can abuse. Don’t give them the opportunity. Seriously, there was a meme. I didn’t post it because Facebook has been doing weird stuff where you can’t post now from one personal to your business or whatever. But there was a meme where it was like, take the sign off your forehead that says Please like me, and put it on your mirror. And I was like, That’s brilliant. Please like yourself, you know, so stop caring what they think and start caring about what you think. And start loving yourself. And you just facts and figures only make yourself as boring as possible to them be all business if they’re it’s all business, they got nothing, really. So that would be my advice. Okay.

Um, do narcs recruit others besides flying monkeys to try and make you react to their lies? My narc mother called the police. When I stopped calling her after she abused me again over the phone. Yes, they do. Absolutely. I, narcissists will use the courts, the police, social workers, other therapists, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to try to force their abuse on others. It’s abuse by proxy is what it’s called. So abuse by proxy is where they contact the police. What’s the word? I’m looking for? Only? Asli? No, that’s not it. fictitiously. So they will call the police and, you know, demand that they you know, do something or whatever I mean, this. It happens all the time. Yes. And so it is abuse by proxy, they try to use the police, the courts, social workers, other therapists, etc, to abuse you, because they want them to. So yes, it’s called abuse by proxy. So the nice thing of it is, is that eventually the police departments get really angry with the person who’s doing the calling. So at least here and in Phoenix, they do so um, so yeah, so you want to if they’re doing that, and if you’ve gone no contact, and they’re continually calling the police on you for absolutely nothing. And the police have got the reports, you’re going to march yourself down to the local court, and you’re going to file a restraining order, because that’s harassment. That’s harassment. So yeah, they absolutely do that because they want to use intimidation, etc, etc. Yeah, it’s abuse by proxy is what it is. It’s also if they get somebody else to abuse you, a flying monkey, a police officer or social worker or therapist, whatever. If they’re using somebody to harm you. That’s abuse by proxy. So just be aware of that. Yeah, they absolutely do that. So yeah.

I heard the term firewalling the other day, and I’m not sure if I understand it completely, might be a new term. I’ve never heard of it. Until now. Is it putting a stop to the drama? Well, that’s good question. Why don’t we look it up while I’m here on the computer fire wall walling? Because I’ve never heard of that one. Definition of firewalling how to firewall. Oh, this is Dr. RAMANI. Oh, okay.

Kris Godinez  44:07

Cool. What’s the video? I can’t watch it right now. So go watch Dr. Romani, and is she’s got a video on firewalling. firewalling is a term that is used in computing to refer to protections. So yeah, so it is I guess a term that you use with narcissists so go watch her stuff. So Dr. Ramani. Go to Dr. Ramani and look that up because that’s a term I have not heard about for so there is that all right. Um I will look it up. I’ll watch her thing and see what she has to say. And I can answer that better on Wednesday. Once I’ve had a chance to look at you got to understand there’s so many so many new things happening. I’m not going to always know what new terms are so Dr. Romani. Go to her website go to youtube to look up her video on fire. willing that will give you the answer you’re needing.

Okay. Why would a narcissist co worker be so contemptuous of me when I just ignored him gave gray rock because they think their god so they cannot then being ignored. So gray rock is not ignoring stonewalling is ignoring, okay. So gray rock is just giving a minimum answer. And that way you’ve got plausible deniability. So if they’re like, Why are you ignoring me? Well, I answered your question. I’m not ignoring you. You know, so they can’t stand being ignored their ego demands that they be paid attention to you because they have the gravitas. They think they’ve got the gravitas, they don’t understand that they’re going to be maggot food like the rest of us. And they should probably be nice to people because then you know, karma. So um, yeah, they get angry when we ignore that, which is why gray rocking is not stonewalling. stonewalling is ignoring stonewalling is what a narcissist uses to inflict emotional pain on the target of abuse. So when they want to really hurt somebody, they ignore them. Like literally ignore them, do not give them the time of day, don’t answer the questions. Don’t look at them the whole thing. stonewalling lights up the same areas of the brain as physical pain. So it literally is hurtful to the target of the stonewalling gray rocking is you just don’t have an emotional response. So if you’re ignoring the person, like literally just ignoring them, not even you know, acknowledging their presence, blah, blah, blah, yeah, that’s going to trigger an ego wound and they’re going to be angry. So you want to do the gray rocking where you still answer them, but you don’t ignore them. Again, fine line, these people are so crazy, so crazy. And they will look for any opportunity to take things personally so that they can rage at you so that they can be angry so that you apologize to them. Don’t apologize. You didn’t do anything wrong. So you know, oh, no, I was listening to you or Oh, no. So just be aware. That’s what’s going on. They can’t stand it when they’re not given their garavatas

My cousin used to side with the ex narcissist I dated both of them used to team up to embarrass me and family events. I have a hard time forgiving my cousin. Why would she do that? Because she’s either a minor narcissist or she doesn’t understand. You don’t need to forgive your cousin. This whole idea of forgiveness is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Forgiveness is not about them, it is about us. So what you want to do, or what I would do in that situation. If the cousin is somebody you do want to try to fix a relationship with have a relationship with etc. You could educate them on abuse. And if they continue to do it, now they’re showing you who they really are… be done. Okay. There’s two types of flying monkeys. There’s either the ones that are just ignorant, they don’t get it, or they are minor narcissists themselves. Now given that she teamed up to embarrass you. That’s pointing to minor narcissists themselves, Healthy People don’t seek to embarrass, or shame. Other people are disordered people with a personality disorder do. Let me say this, again, disordered people with a personality disorder seek to shame others, they are trying to shove their shame onto and into other people. So if this cousin was doing that, it’s probably not somebody you want to be around. They’ve kind of shown you who they are.

Kris Godinez  48:44

You could give them the benefit of the doubt if you wanted to, and just be like, Hey, not sure you’re aware of this, but this is what’s going on. And please don’t do this again. If they you know, don’t apologize. Or if they flip the script, you’re dealing with a minor narcissist. So yeah, that’s they would do that because they’re enjoying it their sadists, you don’t seek to destroy other people. Okay. All right.

Once someone is a flying monkey, is there any hope that they will stop being a flying monkey, okay. So, again, flying monkeys are one of two types. They’re either ignorant, they don’t understand abuse, and you need to educate them and then once they get educated, they go, Oh, my God, I had no idea I am so sorry. And then they stop. Or they’re minor narcissists. So if after you’ve educated them, and they continue to do the flying monkey thing, nope, they’re not. They’ve got the information. And they are now choosing to betray you. They are now choosing to side with the abuser they are now choosing to inflict harm. So be done. Be done with them.

Alright, my loves, it’s going to be 114 Tomorrow, it’s going to be 113 today, so if you are in Arizona, drink plenty of water. And please take good care of yourselves. Do Work on your work, do work on self-esteem work. Go check out Dr. Romani. YouTubes she’s great. I mean, Kim Saeed, Dr. RAMANI there’s a whole you know, Shahida Arabi, all of us go check out other people if they come if there’s a term you don’t know and I don’t know what it is, go check it out. So anyway, there it is my boss. All right, my love’s talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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