Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  00:27

All right. So, announcements. Alright, so Suzanna and I have decided to hold off on touring again. Thank you COVID. So, we’re kind of trying to figure that all out. However, we are still plotting and planning to do a seminar at some point it is either going to be in Scottsdale or in Palm Springs. I’ve got a massage therapist, Diane, who was on the show who’s very, very interested in doing the seminar as well. We’ve got other people that are interested in doing the seminar. Oh, hello, India. My goodness. So um, hopefully I’m hoping we’ll see how the winter goes. And if in the spring, it’s looking better. And if that antiviral pill makes a difference. That would be great. Then we’re going to look at doing a seminar probably a Friday night, Saturday morning or Saturday day would be all the seminars. And then thank you Benny. Um, then Sunday we would do the goodbye breakfast and all that sort of good stuff and I don’t like those seminars where you can’t actually sit and talk to people so I’m very much like if you went on the cruise with me and John you know, we did breakfast with you guys. We hung out we had lunch we you know, because I like talking to people and I like hearing what’s going on. So that’s kind of my way of doing a seminar. It’s like, hey, let’s you know, no host lunch, breakfast, whatever, we’ll go talk and we’ll do the seminars and hang out and answer all your questions. So, at some point, it is going to happen and it’s going to be more than just me and Suzanna. I think it’s gonna be me, Susanna, Diane Brown, who’s a massage therapist. I’m trying to get Marsha Diane who is also a therapist. She’s very spiritual to do that. So, we’ll, we’ll see how that goes.

All right, speaking of Suzanna, You’re Still That Girl Suzanna Quintana at Suzannaquintana.com. She’s my girl because she’s awesome. So, this is a great book for recovering from a narcissistic abusive relationship. There is Shahida’s book, which I just I love her, Shahida Arabi The Highly Sensitive Person’s Guide to Dealing with Toxic People. I love this book because she has all sorts of suggestions for journaling and things to do to work, you know, cognitively work out the abuse. So, this is a great book. If you are going through a divorce, you need to get Splitting by Bill Edie and Randy Krieger. Because this will tell you, I’m running out of room Good Lord, I’m just gonna put this on the floor. Hang on.

Kris Godinez  03:22

This will tell you everything that your abusive ex is going to pull during the legal process. So, this is a great book if you’re thinking of divorcing or if you’re in the middle of a divorce, or if you’re in denial, and you’re going no, they would never do X, Y and Z. Yeah, they will, they will do X, Y and Z, I know they’re gonna do X, Y and Z, these guys know they’re going to do X, Y and Z you need to know they’re going to do X, Y and Z. So, this is a great book. If you are interested in my books, You Can Lead a Horse to Water But You Can’t Make ‘em Cha-Cha why some people get into abusive relationships and stay and other people get out and then my first book What’s Wrong with Your Dad… got about four hours. So, this is about my journey and kind of like why I became a therapist. So right there also to let you know I just got my headshots done for the new book which is called So You Want To Be A Therapist. So that’s coming out soon I just got the headshots done for that I’m going to be doing the audio for it in November. So, the hardcopy book is probably going to be coming out sometime this month and the audio book will be coming out sometime in November, December that’s the evil plan and I’m working on the fourth book which is more along the lines of You Can Lead a Horse to Water But You Can’t Make ‘Em Cha, Cha. But this time it’s about you know finding yourself coming out of the abusive relationship and finding yourself so there is that!

Okay, so let’s dive into this. So, a lot of the times I get questions about well what’s the difference between dependent personality disorder versus being codependent Well, there’s a lot there’s, there’s, there’s a lot! So let’s go Read the DSM Let’s read what this is so dependent personality disorder and this is a cluster C okay? So, narcissism and borderline are cluster B’s, dependent personality disorder is a cluster C. So, pervasive and excessive need to be taken care of that leads to submissiveness and clinging behavior and fears of separation kind of sounds like borderline in a lot of ways beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts indicated by five or more of the following but it’s different than borderline so I just want to be very clear about that. The borderline remember, borderline personality disorder when it starts sliding down the spectrum has got traits of all the major personality disorders so they can be dependent they can be terrified of making a decision because they’re afraid of being abandoned. So um, number one has difficulty making decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others so in other words, you know a healthy normal person can walk into a store try on a pair of pants and go “Yeah, those are the ones!” or “Oh no! That makes…Lord what is happening to my butt!” You know seriously so they can make a decision not a problem it’s like Yes, I’m gonna buy these pants are good or God no. With somebody with dependent personality disorder, they need to get everybody’s opinion the sales clerk’s opinion, their friend’s, opinion, their parent’s opinion their… they can’t just walk in and just be confident in their choice of Okay, done, you know, etc. This is what I want or no, this is not what I want, etc. So they have to have an excessive amount of advice and reassurance that they’re making the right choice. Why? Because people with dependent personality disorder were probably raised by Narcissus they were probably raised by an abuser and abusers are notorious for rubbing our noses in things that we got wrong.

So, this is where avoidant personality disorder also comes in. And dependent personality disorder also comes in because if you were raised by somebody that’s constantly rubbing your nose in what you did wrong, you’re going to learn to either A. Not make a choice at all and avoid it. Or, you’re going to ask for everybody’s opinion on it to make sure you did the right choice so that you don’t get into trouble. So, there is that Okay, number two needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of his or her own life. So, they abdicate they just abdicate I can’t do this I’m a victim I can’t! I don’t have the ability I… you know, I’m not strong enough I’m not smart enough. I don’t you know, whatever. So, they abdicate they abdicate being parents, they abdicate responsibility they don’t get a job they don’t you know, it’s kind of along those lines that really bad 1930s kind of romance thing where usually the woman says I can’t think any more you have to think for both of us. What no! With a side of no and an extra helping of no and oh my God, no! So yeah, they abdicate they abdicate responsibility for most major areas of their life. Three has difficulty expressing disagreement with others now this is sounding a little bit like codependency now remember codependency is not in the DSM five it’s not it should be it’s not but it’s it’s not in there but it exists You and I have seen it we have it we see it you know we’ve had to work on it with the Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker. So, this has a little bit of the codependency and it has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because fear of loss of support or approval.

Kris Godinez  08:49

Okay, now this does not include fear of retribution because that’s what happens in abusive relationships there’s a fear of making you know waves because you know, the abuser is going to beat you harm you hurt you put you down, you know, throw you around, etc, etc, etc. So that’s a little different.

Four has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on his or her own because of a lack of self confidence in judgment or abilities, rather than a lack of motivation or energy. So oftentimes, when I work with survivors of abuse, they will be terrified of doing things on their own going out to dinner by themselves, you know, making a choice at a restaurant by themselves Why? Because the abusers oftentimes order for their targets of abuse and it gets to the point where they literally don’t know what they want. You know, they couldn’t tell you what they like what they don’t… like they’ve, they’ve abdicated so much to the abuser that they no longer know themselves. So yeah, they, they fear going and doing things by themselves. “Well, I’ll look silly. People will look at me. I can’t go to The gym by myself people will look at me!” Yeah, you can go to the gym by yourself because nobody cares trust me on that one! So one thing I did recommend to a client that was terrified of going out and, and either working out or going to a restaurant or things like that go to someplace where you are not you know in a huge room go to like you know one of those walk up stands you know a truck okay? Nobody’s going to notice that you’re by yourself there’s a lot of people out there by themselves a lot of business people go and eat at the food trucks etc. etc. etc. or if you’re terrified of working out and you’re afraid of people looking at you do an exercise where people are not looking at you. Yoga. Nobody’s looking at you, trust me on that one. You’re we’re too busy trying not to kill ourselves putting ourselves into downward dog especially if you’re my age. So, you know or Pilates. Pilates you’re usually on your back looking up at the ceiling and you’re not paying attention to what other people are doing you know so do things that you can do that this doesn’t start going ‘Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God! What if? What if? What if?” The truth of the matter is, is most people are so wrapped up in their own heads and their own lives, they’re not paying attention to other people, they really aren’t. I know for me when I’m doing Pilates, I’m so focused on not doing anything to harm myself that I’m not paying attention to what other people are doing I’m paying attention to you know, lifting the muscles and making sure I’m using my core and you know things like that so yeah, it’s a good idea to do something that’s going to be not… because if you go to one of those gyms, I know I’m going off on a tangent bear with me. If you go to one of those gems where it’s a meat market Yeah, they are looking at each other. Yeah, they are wearing full makeup while they’re working out on the treadmill that happened in LA all the time and I’m always sitting there going girl you’re not here for the workout Are you You’re here for a different kind of workout. Hmm. So yeah, you don’t want to, you don’t want to go to a gym like that, go to a gym where people are so focused on working out that they’re not paying attention other people don’t go to one of the meat market ones. No, no, that’s yucky. No, no.

Okay, um, number four has difficulty initiating projects. Oh, I said that one. Okay, number five, goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others to the point of volunteering to do things that are unpleasant. That does sound like a little bit like codependent so codependency we go over and above in order to get approval from whoever that we’re okay. Okay, so here’s some like the contrast and comparison there’s a little bit of codependency in this a lot not so. Um, okay, feels helpless or uncomfortable when alone we talked about that because of exaggerated fears of being unable to care for him or herself or being afraid of being made fun of because what narcissists do what do abusive parents do, they make fun of their kids. Ask me how much I like those parents. Yeah. I don’t like them at all. So yeah, they do that and then that causes people to be afraid of being made fun of urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close relationship ends

Kris Godinez  13:14

So that does happen to survivors of abuse, they get out of one relationship and without working on themselves they dive right back into another one because they cannot stand the idea of being alone with themselves because these thoughts are no bueno. So, this does sound a little bit like borderline as well, which is interesting. And you know narcissists do the same thing. They can’t stand not having a supply their reasoning is they need supply. Borderlines reasoning is they can’t stand being alone because they need that support because the thoughts are so mean to them. And dependent it’s the same thing they’re afraid of being alone. What’s, what are the thoughts? What are the thoughts?

Number eight is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of him or herself. Okay, so that’s dependent personality disorder. Now let’s talk about codependent Now if you notice, it all starts kind of you know, sounding like oh, well this sounds like borderline this sounds like narcissism this sounds like codependent, etc, etc, etc. With both borderline and narcissism. When they slide down towards the malignant end of the spectrum, it’s no longer just traits of okay? They are actively harming other people. They’re enjoying it. They’re, you know, dark triad for the Narcissists. They’re getting down to that Witch and Queen area for the borderlines, all of the personality disorders literally start over lapping and they have traits of all of them. So, it is interesting that you see similarities between those So okay, where do I want to go next? Okay, I want to….. I need to turn down the sound because it Just buzzed in my ear.

Okay um I want to go to codependency because I talked about dependent personality disorder excessive dependence on others needing to be taken care of submissive or clingy fear of having to provide self-care, lack of self-confidence, difficulty starting or doing projects, difficulty disagreeing with others, fearing disapproval, tolerance of poor or abusive treatment. When the other, when other options are available. urgent need to start a new relationship when one has ended. Okay. All right.

So, let’s go to codependent doo, doo doo. Okay, so again, I found some really cool articles. So, one is on and this is a couple of years old. This is on elephant journal and it’s called let me find the title of it. Harley Quinn and ending the stigma we have about abuse targets they say victims I like the word target. So, let’s talk about Harlequin. Harlequin is honestly one of the best examples of codependency I’ve ever seen in popular literature. Because Harlequin was a obviously character comic book character, marvelously done by Margot Robbie, she’s just amazing. If you have not seen the newest Suicide Squad, I highly recommend it. It is violent, but she’s just, she blows my mind. Anyway, she’s a great actress. Anyway, Harlequin in the comics was a psychiatrist, and she was treating the Joker at the Arkham Asylum thing. And he started getting in her head. And he started love bombing. And he started you know, telling her how great she was and how fabulous she was. And but then as soon as he knew he got her the devalue and the discard happened. And at the end of one of the arcs of the I think it was the television that the Huh, what am I trying to say the animated television show? At the end of one of the arcs of the animated television show she outdoes the Joker she’s actually smarter than he is she’s actually better guess being a villain. And she was able to pull off this this crime, you know, to kill Batman, and she was better at it than he was and you in a healthy relationship. If your partner out does you you cheer for them. You’re like, go you you’re fabulous in that relationship, because he’s obviously a psychopath, antisocial psychopath. Dark triad. Everything bad, is the Joker. When she does that  he becomes enraged and screams at her and tells her how stupid she was that she ruined it all and it was all her fault. And then he throws her out of a window. And the sad thing of it is, is that at the end of that episode, there was Harlequin and a bloodied mess on the floor on the ground, and she’s sobbing and she says I didn’t get the joke. It’s my fault. I didn’t get the joke. That’s heart breaking. And then she goes about becoming less than you know, she’s

she’s the joke now she’s she’s stupid, you know, and she allows the Joker to be the smart, brilliant mastermind, whatever.

Kris Godinez  18:26

So, it’s, it’s a codependent relationship in that she’s constantly trying to make him okay. She’s constantly trying to make sure he’s taken care of she’s constantly trying to make sure that his wants his needs, his desires, his plans, his brilliance, his you know, whatever, is all taken care of. And later on in the series, he once she’s in the hospital, he then starts sending her flowers. After he did the devalue in the discard, so he did the Hoover. So, it’s the, it’s the abuse clock all over again. So, it blew up with her, actually showing him that he wasn’t the smart one. He wasn’t the greatest thing ever that she actually had as much or more smarts than he did. Then he devalued and discarded her threw her out of a window she took all the blame. Ooooh, does this sound familiar? Current recent events you know, Gabby Pettit perhaps you know she took all the blame put it on her goes into the hospital is maybe thinking about maybe leaving him maybe you know who knows that thought might have crossed your mind. And then he starts love bombing again, sending her flowers lots and lots of flowers, lots and lots of flowers. So, the love bomb started all over again. So that is a great example of codependency and she stays, she stays with him. And it’s not because she’s, you know, a bad person or anything else like that. It’s because something in her past has informed her that this as normal This is love and that is not love! So love isn’t painful. Let me…. please get this and please share these videos with as many people as you can because if you know somebody who’s in a relationship like that they need to get Love does not hurt. Love does not hurt ever, ever! If it hurts, it is not love. It’s abuse. It’s dysfunctional. It’s toxic, it is not love. Okay, so somehow somewhere in her mind this was okay somehow somewhere she childhood stuff I don’t know. But in her mind even though she was a brilliant psychiatrist she fell for the psychopath and she became literally a different person Harley Quinn so um yeah, it’s, it’s has to do with self-esteem. People who love themselves don’t put up with that kind of abuse. And once somebody has harmed them, you know, you give them the opportunity to make amends. But if they don’t, if they’re not honest and truthful, then yeah, you’re done.

So, let’s talk about the six hallmarks of codependency Okay. Um, all right, and this is on psychology today. This is called the six hallmarks of codependency they have an excessive we have an excessive and unhealthy tendency to rescue and take responsibility for other people. And this is the biggest mistake we make when we are involved with an abuser. So just like Harlequin, oh, it’s all my fault. Just like Gabby Pettit. Oh, it’s all me, you know, we have a tendency to do that, instead of going, No, this is their stuff, this is them, we have a tendency to take on the responsibility for the emotions, for the behaviors for the actions for the whatever for their happiness. I can’t tell you the number of times I have seen adult children sit on my couch, well, no more because I’m doing everything through video now but you know, get in front of me and tell me that it was their job to care for and make sure mom was happy or dad was happy, or that the siblings were happy or that you know, they had to care take the siblings. So, codependency generally comes from different from dependent personality disorder. Codependence generally can make decisions. But the problem of it is, that every decision they make is based on how it’s going to help somebody else and not how they’re going to take care of themselves. So, we become codependent, when we have a family or a family member that is absentee, neglectful abusive, alcoholic drug addict and we end up having to care take them or we end up having to care take them, be parentifide and take care of the younger siblings. So that is where we get this codependent feeling of, I have to take care of other people, I have to do things for other people, I can’t do anything for myself. And if somebody does something for somebody who’s codependent, they immediately want to turn around and do that for them. So, it’s like they can’t just accept the gift of whatever’s being given. You know, it’s like, oh, no, no, no, no, I need to do this for you, too. Oh, no, no, no, I need to do this. No, you need to accept it and just enjoy it seriously. So that is where codependency comes from is from be parentifide, and having to care, take the parent care, take the other kids care, take other family members, etc, etc, etc. We are trying to save ourselves by saving the family. I know.

Okay, number two, derive a sense of purpose and boost the self-esteem through extreme sacrifice to satisfy the needs of others. So, we do that. So how many times has the abuser

Kris Godinez  23:56

walked in and taken something that was ours and we just let them do it? You know, because they wanted it? Oh, well, they must need it more than I do. Or they must want it more than I do. So, what I’ve seen in cases of abuse in an in a romantic relationship is the spouse the, the codependent spouse will get a bonus or an inheritance or something and the abuser will swoop in and go I want that and the codependent spouse goes okay, and hands it over. Or if the codependent spouse buys themselves something nice the abuser swoops in. How dare you and then they feel guilty. Hello, fear, obligation, guilt, fear, obligation, guilt, the fog, and then they turn around and either give that to the abuser or they go buy the abuser, something similar. Okay? Because narcissists are like two year olds, if you have something they want it too, or better. So, the codependent instead of drawing a boundary and going No, this is my inheritance that I got from my mother or my father or no, this is the bonus that I got. I’ve been working for I’ve been saving up for this thing for myself you know drawing a boundary instead of being able to do that they give in and they give the abuser whatever they want because they’re terrified of the abuser being vindictive retribution etc. etc. etc. So, there is that!

Hold on let’s go back. Okay, number three choose to enter and stay in lengthy high-cost caretaking and rescuing relationships despite the cost to themselves or to others. So they’ll get involved with somebody and I’ve heard this 100,000 million times and it kills me every single time I hear it well but they deserve love too. Well yes, technically everybody on the face of the planet deserves love. Love is the highest power. However, if they are a covert narcissist, okay, covert narcissists are the ones that do the whole covert narcissist and hermits borderlines are the ones that do the martyr… I do all of this for you, you never do anything for me victim, victim, victim, victim, victim, you know, you don’t treat me well blah, blah, blah, and when in fact the codependent is treating them like a king or queen so they stay in these relationships trying to get this approval from this person that’s never… listen to me now, believe me later. Never going to approve and it always the bar gets raised you know you do 100,000 million things for them they’ll want 100,000 million and one. You know, so they get involved in these relationships thinking it’s just around the corner so that intermittent positive reward, that addiction aspect to it “Well but, you know they were they were nice to me once so you know I can feel it they’re going to be nice again it’s going to change.” It’s just like a gambling addict you sitting at the slots going “Oh it’s gonna come any minute! You know “The jackpot is gonna be here any minute! It’s gonna be here any minute!” And never comes up. So that is what good lord Mystique! That is what we do as, as codependence is that we keep hoping or waiting for, for the jackpot, for the payoff, but it never comes because they’re always dangling that carrot in our, in our face, okay.

Let’s go back to the other hallmarks, okay? regularly try to engineer the change of troubled, addicted or under functioning people whose problems are far bigger than their abilities to fix them. So, codependency the term codependency really came out of, it really came out of addiction. And it was to describe the enablers who were helping the alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. But they really weren’t helping, and they were killing themselves trying to help them. So, for example, they will oftentimes in addiction, you know, send them to rehab, after rehab, after rehab, after rehab, after rehab, and they just don’t stop. Why Why aren’t you stopping? Well, I can’t have them fail.

Kris Godinez  28:10

You can in fact, you need to in addiction you have to and if somebody is unwilling to pick up the mantle and go help themselves, you literally cannot help them, you literally can only help people who are willing to help themselves you cannot… listen to me now believe me later. You cannot help the unwilling. Let me say that again. You cannot help the unwilling. If they’re getting a payoff from being a victim, or from being a bully, they’re not going to change, they’re not and what I hear, and the heartbreaking thing I hear from parents of addicted children is “Oh my God! I can’t let them be homeless! Oh my God! I can’t let them fail! No, you have to. You have to. That’s the only way some people get better. Some people’s rock bottom is death, it is. Other people’s rock bottom is they get a DUI, “Oh my God, that’s enough I’m done!” Or other people’s rock bottom is losing family and friends. Some people never get it, it’s a matter of thirds. So, like a third of people go into recovery and they get it and they stay clean and sober. Another, I have yet to meet those people…. Another third of people you know, get into recovery, relapse, relapse, relapse, relapse, relapse and finally get clean and sober and another third just never, never get it and they just keep failing and keep going down the hole. You cannot help people that don’t want to help themselves. You can only help the willing and it’s the same thing in therapy and I tell new therapists this all the time is never work harder than your client your client is got to want to get better and if they really want to get better, they’re going to do the work and I talked about that in the book, So You Want To Be A Therapist, because a lot of people you know it’s like but, but, but no, I know you want everybody to be okay. I want everybody to be okay. Wouldn’t that be great? Wouldn’t it be great if everybody was okay because then I could retire and own a b&b on a beach somewhere Victorian haunted, that would be so cool. Anyway, good haunting, not scary, haunting, little old lady that makes bread anyway, the point being is that people, you can’t help somebody that doesn’t want to change.

Narcissists don’t want to change, they don’t, they tell you they do. But the only time a narcissist ever goes to therapy is if they’ve been forced to by the courts, they are being forced to by family, or they are being forced to by the spouse and they won’t stick with it, they go for like, three times. And as soon as the therapist goes ah, what’s your part in this, they go screw you and they’re out of there. So Alright, hold on, we’re running out of time.

Ah, okay, um, okay, have a pattern of engaging and well intentioned, but ultimately unproductive, unhealthy, helping behaviors such as enabling, and what ends up happening. And this is the sad part is the person you’re trying to help ends up resenting the living crap out of you, you will lose them in the end, you will, because they didn’t really want to change in the first place, they didn’t really want to get help in the first place. They see that you see that they’re not healthy, functioning, whatever, they start getting really resentful, and you will lose them in the end.

So, one thing I said I wanted to talk about before we dive into the questions because we are going to get to the questions but I wanted to talk about this first. Um, one thing I wanted to talk about was when to codependents get together. So initially, when two codependents get together, it’s kind of like I don’t know if you remember the Jungle Book, the old one, the, the cartoon one. And the vultures are all sitting on the tree. What do you want to do? I dunno. What do you want to do? I don’t know, what do you want to do? It’s kind of back and forth forever because everybody’s afraid to make a decision because they don’t want to piss off the other people. So that kind of happens in the beginning, but as the relationship goes on, and one member of the codependent team starts making themselves small in order to make the other person happy and always giving up to their… well, where do you want to go to dinner? You know, and never being able to allowed to make where they’re going to go to dinner, what they’re going to do or whatever, the resentment starts building, the resentment starts building and eventually it starts bubbling and then that’s when people end up on my couch. So usually at a point when it’s too late, so and this is the thing that kills me it’s like codependents have this and we all do it because Hello recovering Hello, you know, um, we have this desire to people please which is why I’m saying Harriet Braiker The Disease To Please read it. Melanie Beatty Codependent No More. Sherry Thank you. Melanie Beatty Codependent No More, Beyond Codependent No More. PM Melody has a book on codependency. We want to people please we want to make them happy we want to you know we want everything to be smooth and great and wonderful and awesome.

Kris Godinez  33:12

But then they don’t return the favor or or it just becomes this like analysis paralysis. I don’t know! What do you want to do? I don’t know, what do you want to do? The resentment starts building if we start going oh no, that’s okay. Yeah, no, that’s fine. A German food is fine when really you wanted Indian food you know that’s the time to speak up. But those little things start building and building and building and building and that’s when the resentment starts and that’s what kills a relationship so two codependents together is no bueno as well so you know in the beginning it’s all let me please you, let me please you, let me please you, let me please you, I don’t know what do you want to do? What do you want to do? But then eventually it’s like oh, no, that’s okay. Oh no, that’s okay. Oh no, no, I really don’t want that Oh no, no, I really don’t want that either. Oh, no, da, da, da, da, da and you start giving up little aspects of yourself and then eventually you get really angry because the resentment has built up so much because you haven’t spoken up for yourself you haven’t said no, this is what I want. You know, we can do this one week and we can do this the other week or you know, whatever. So, boundaries, boundaries, Disease to Please Harriet Braiker, Self-Esteem Workbook, Glen Schiraldi. That is the cure for codependency because people who love themselves stand up for themselves. Dependent personality disorder. Those are the professional victims; they never make a decision. They can’t decide for themselves, they need an exorbitant amount of reassurance. So again, therapy and it’s probably because of trauma. Guarantee it probably came about because of trauma that caused them to second guess themselves to the point where they are now stuck. So there that is Alright, let’s dive into the questions.

Okay. Isn’t this kind of dependency and codependency connected to the lack of self-differentiation? Yes. So, when we are with an abuser Literally, by the time we’re done with that abusive relationship, whether it is a parenting relationship, or whether it is a romantic relationship, or even a boss relationship, we lose who we are, we no longer know who we are, and our boundaries become so blurred, that we don’t know where we begin and end and where that romantic relationship begins and ends, or where that familial relationship begins and ends. So that’s why it’s really, really important self-esteem, boundaries, deal breakers, these are all ways to differentiate yourself, to have a clear boundary from who you are versus who they are, you know, so that you know what your wants and needs are. So very often I have people sitting on my couch after the end of an abusive relationship. Where’s My Water? There it is. Thank you. Okay. Sorry, oh. And they will tell me, I don’t know who I am anymore. I don’t know what I want anymore. I don’t remember what makes me happy. Because they lived for so many. days, weeks, months, years, some cases decades, trying to make this person who will never be healthy, who will never be happy, who will never approve, to be healthy, happy to approve. And so, they’ve lost who they are. It’s like, I don’t know who I am. And I couldn’t even tell you what I like to eat. That literally happens. So yes, differentiation. It’s like beginnings and endings, where you begin and end, where they begin and end. Boundaries, boundaries, super important self-esteem, super important. Basically, everything literally boils down to self-esteem. Work on your self esteem work on the mirror, “Hi! Good to see you! Have a great day! You know what? I give you permission to say no!” And then listen to what the internal critic does. If the internal critic pops up and starts screaming at you, demeaning you, that’s what you need to work on. Thank you for your input. Shut the Bleep up. Why? Because I say so! I am the boss of this. This is not the boss of me. I get to say no. Why? Because I say so. I am the boss. And you reaffirm that and you do that as many times as you need to. So, boundary drawing, self-esteem is huge. Go back to finding out what you like to do. What did you used to like to do before you got involved with the abuser? Or when you were a kid and you were in the crazy family? What was it that you used to like to do? What did you used to enjoy doing that they didn’t touch that they couldn’t get ahold of, or maybe they did get a hold of it, but you used to like to do it before they got a hold of it. Go back to doing that. So, this is why I tell people it’s never too late to have a happy childhood. Go fly kites.

Kris Godinez  37:53

Oh my god, I love flying kites. When we lived in Oregon, we went to the beach, we went to Cannon Beach all the time. And I would fly kites there and it just made me so ridiculously happy. Because that’s what little kids like doing. So, get back to the things that make you happy. Get back to doing the things that bring you joy. Try coloring, coloring books, oh my gosh, one of my girlfriends had two little kids. And so there was a you know, cocktail party, etc, etc. I went off with the little kids and we sat there we drawed. Oh, good grammar Kris. We drew in the comic book or the coloring book. And it was so much fun. And it was so relaxing. There’s a reason why there’s a whole bunch of adult coloring books out because it’s relaxing. It’s fun. You know, so do that. Do things that bring you joy. Do you like miniature golf? Go do miniature golf. Do you like bowling, go do bowling. What are your favorite foods go explore what you want, what you enjoy. Experiment with going out to dinner by yourself. Tell this voice to shut the Bleep up and to go pound sand when it’s like oh my god, people are looking at me blah, blah, blah. No, they’re not. I’m gonna have the salmon, thank you, you know or whatever. So go and do things that challenge you that expand your boundaries that expand your you know, if you’ve made your world super small, go expand it back out again. Go try new things, go do new things. go explore. Figure out what you want. What is important to you, what makes you happy, what brings you joy.

Remember, narcissists do not feel the way we do. They don’t they don’t experience love or joy or happiness or anything else the way a healthy normal person does. And when they see somebody experiencing a healthy normal emotion, whether that’s crying or anger or joy or happiness or whatever. They come unglued because they can’t feel it. So, they try to take it away from us. They’ll take over hobbies, they’ll take over what we like to eat, they’ll take over cooking, they’ll take over whatever brings us joy. They’ll try to take it away from us so your job once you get out of an abusive relationship is to go remind yourself what you used to like to do and what you do like to do that you haven’t done in years because of the abuse. So, get back to that. I hope that answered the question.

Um, the behaviors under dependent personality disorder sound like they could have been induced by abusive treatment? Yes, absolutely. If so, isn’t it more like a set of learned behaviors that can be unlearned than a typically hard to treat disorder? Yes and no. So, think of it this way, if it was learned under abuse, and they were itty, bitty, little itty, bitty ones, okay, it’s the same thing with borderline they started being abused when they were itty bitty. And so those fears, fear is a very powerful motivator. It’s a very powerful deterrent. It’s a very powerful, it’s a powerful emotion. It is, um, you have to undo all of those fears. You have to undo all of those mistaken thoughts, you have to undo all of those mistaken beliefs. So, if you find yourself with dependent personality disorder, if you find yourself constantly being terrified of making a choice, or making a decision or whatever you’re going to want to get with a good trauma therapist absofreakinglutely. Yes, it is based in trauma. Most personality disorders are, not all of them. Not all. Narcissism is not based in trauma. Don’t let them BS you with that. They do. They try. They’re like, Oh, I had a traumatic trauma. No, you didn’t. So don’t get me started. So, but most of them like borderline, dependent, avoidant, OCD. Those are all based in trauma, all of them schizo affective, schizo schizotypal. Not, you know, but the borderline, the avoidant, the dependent, the OCD, yes, those are all based in trauma, if you have any of those, get with a good trauma therapist and start working on the trauma. And that’s going to actually help you resolve all of the behaviors that are learned that are coming up out of that. So yeah, that’s why when anybody says they have any of those, I’m like, okay, here’s what we need to work on. We need to work on the trauma, we need to work on this, we need to work on boundaries, we need to work on self-esteem, we need to work on inner child work, inner child work, because that’s where the trauma happens. So that would be The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor. Now, some people because the trauma was so great, they don’t remember their childhood. That’s okay. You don’t have to, it’s enough to know that you don’t remember your childhood, which is a huge red flag. Oh, my goodness, looking like the Communist Party seriously is like a red flag. The trauma happened, okay, something happened, you may not remember it, and that’s okay. You can still work with it. You know, I don’t remember from ages, I don’t know, zero to six. But

Kris Godinez  42:50

then after six, I remember stuff. Okay. Well, something happened. We don’t know what yet. But we’re going to start assuming that something happened. And we’re going to start working through the inner child workbook and working on the self-esteem of that little four-year-old. Do you see where I’m going with that you start building the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the boundaries, build the love for yourself, that’s what’s important. So yes, it is trauma informed, and it is still hard to treat because fear, like I said, is primal. It is part of the fight, flight, freeze or faun, motivator. And if these behaviors have kept us safe, while we were growing up in an abusive relationship and abusive home, it’s going to be hard to get rid of them, but not impossible. Not impossible. So, but it does take a good trauma therapist working on the inner child, working on the trauma, working on building self-esteem, working on building boundaries. deal breakers. Yep, absolutely.

Okay, let’s see, um, how to get over the shame of having made myself smaller when I was in a codependent relationship. I keep remembering how people thought about me back then. Okay. None of us are who we were. None of us. All of us have made mistakes. All of us, if we’re codependent. All of us have made ourselves small in order to try to please the partner. Forgive yourself, sweetie, forgive yourself. We’ve all been there. done that. Hello. Hi, my name is Kris Godinez, and I’m a recovering codependent. Seriously, if that’s what you have to do, because that’s how we were groomed. That’s how we were raised. There’s a reason we became codependent is because it’s usually from having been in a family of origin, where we had to care to take, care give all the time. And we had to take care of people and this and the other thing, and then we take that out into our other everyday life. So, forgive yourself, forgive yourself. You didn’t know what you didn’t know when you didn’t know it. Now you know better. Now you can do better. So, you forgive yourself and if other people oh here’s Hmm, here’s a big one. If other people try to bring up your past and make you wrong for how you were in the past and go, Oh, well, you know you did this when you were in high school, or you did this when you were in grade school, or you did this when you were a young adult. That’s when you really got to ask yourself, what’s the motivation? What’s what, what’s, what’s their agenda? Because who else does that? Hmm, that would be I don’t know, Narcissists dragging up the past trying to put shame into your head over something you did 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago. You always want to question the motivation of that person doing that. Why are they doing that? And when sometimes when people do that with me, like there’s a few people from my high school that when I have to go to high school reunions, they’ll try to do that, and I’ll look at them and go, Yeah, well, that’s not who I am anymore. Thanks for asking. And then I’ll buzz on off. It’s like I’m not playing your game. Thank you. So yeah, you just self-confidence is self-esteem. self-esteem is self-confidence. It really is. Boundaries is also self-esteem and self-confidence. So yeah, you want to ask yourself, what’s the motivation for dragging up the past and trying to embarrass you with it? Or if you’re the one dragging up your own past try to embarrass yourself for it. Who taught you the shame? Huh? Who taught us the shame? Abusers teach us the shame. Abuser shove their shame into our head and we think it’s ours. It is not! Hand the shame back to where it belongs CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. Chapter Three. I think it’s chapter three. I really need to go back and take a look at that book. Anyway. I think it’s chapter three. Putting the shame and the blame and the anger and everything else, the guilt back to where it belongs. It is not yours we do not pop out of the womb feeling guilty. We don’t! Yeah! Or shameful, we don’t, that’s taught that’s a taught behavior. So yeah, you want to forgive yourself. We all make ourselves smaller, every single one of us and we can heal and recover from being codependent. And how do we do that? We do the mirror work. We do the workbooks. We do the CPTSD From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker. We do the Self-Esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, we do The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor, we get with a good trauma therapist, we start working through our past, where did this come from? Why did I believe this, we get rid of the mistaken thoughts and the mistaken beliefs. And you do recover from it. You do! It takes work, though. And a lot of times, people will want to get help, but they’re not really wanting to do the work. And I have to explain to them it’s like, this is not osmosis, you’re not just going to have a session with me and suddenly, you know, you’re a healed you know, it

Kris Godinez  47:48

would be great if it worked that way. Wow. Wouldn’t that be cool that that would be cool. That would be cool. doesn’t work that way, though. The only, the last person did that got, got nailed to a tree. So, you know, you can’t, you can’t expect that. When you go into therapy, you’re gonna have to do the work. And that means having to confront and feel and work through the emotions and the feelings and the thoughts and the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs that happened when we were kids. And some people are just like, No, no, no, no, no, I don’t want to do I’m just, I’m just gonna ignore it well, when we ignore things we’re not dealing with, but they’re still running in the background, like a broken code. Okay, like a broken computer. There’s something there’s some malware running in the background. And it’ll come out sideways, if you’re not aware of it, if you haven’t worked on it. That’s why I’m saying you cannot allow the fear. Remember, fear is a powerful motivator not to do things because we’re afraid. You cannot allow the fear to stop you from processing the trauma. That’s what you got to do. You got to put it back on to the abuser you got to get clear that headspace out of all the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs, that the abusive family or the abusive boyfriend or the abusive boss or the abusive friends shoved into your head because they’re not yours. You’ve got to confront it, you got to work with it. And guess what, you can do it! You can do it. And then you have to ask yourself, okay, how old do I feel? Why am I terrified. A lot of times when I’m working with clients, I’m starting to lose my voice. I can hear it. Um, a lot of times when I’m working with clients, they will you know, express this I don’t want to feel it. I don’t want to think it. I don’t want to have to well, how old are you right now? And then right after they tell me to go pound sand. They’ll say I’m two. You know, I feel like I’m two. Okay. Well, that’s where the abuse happened. That’s why you’re terrified at your two-year-old is terrified. Let’s comfort them. Like why don’t you put your two-year-old on your lap and hold her or hold him and hug him and tell him how wonderful he is? Tell her how great she is. Tell her she’s safe. Tell him she said he’s safe. Tell them that they’ve got you’ve got their back there. Okay. Everything’s good. So that’s what you got to do. So, there is that okay. Hey um don’t don’t make yourself feel shame if you feel shame put it back on the abuser and remind yourself you know we do what we can we do the best we can with what we’ve got at the time. And then afterwards, you know, now that we know better now, we can do better. Forgive yourself, forgive yourself.

Okay. codependents and Narcissus can both have a savior complex, how do they approach being a savior differently? different motivations? So, remember, a narcissist is never really truly interested in another person. They look at it as to how they can aggrandize themselves so those are the ones who do the charitable acts, but then they make sure to tell everybody all of their charitable acts, okay people who are really interested in doing charitable acts, don’t feel the need to go on to Facebook or YouTube or I don’t know what other social media Twitter, Instagram what’s the other one Snapchat? You know all of these you know things and go look at me, look at me, look at me, look at all these charitable acts that I’m doing. No, they’re doing it for self-aggrandizement. So self-aggrandizement. So, with a codependent is their wellbeing depends on the other person being okay I need to make sure you’re okay. I need to make sure this is good I need to make sure the family is working remember that’s kind of the original motivation for the whole codependency so it’s all about the other person making sure they’re okay so they can be okay whereas with the narcissist it’s Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at what I’m doing. Look at all my good charitable acts bla, bla bla, so there’s that, okay. All right. Um, and of course, here’s the thing, a narcissist will never put themselves out. Ever, they will never put themselves out. One of the defining acts of codependency is, the codependent will put themselves out to the point where they keel over, in order to help, Narcissists will never go out of their way for a single living creature on this planet, if it puts them out of comfort, they’re not going to do it. So that’s the difference. All right, um, let me take some more water because my voice is really going oh my god.

Okay, um, how to deal with a friend who purposely trauma dumps? Is there something specific I should pay attention to? With this personality type? Well, okay, I’m assuming that you mean and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m assuming that you mean that the person you know, comes and tells you all of their problems, okay. So people do that, not realizing

Kris Godinez  52:46

how hard it is on the listener. So, if you got to tell him to get a therapist, you know, if they start trauma dumping on you, you’ve got to be like, Look, I love you. I want to be here for you. However, this is a boundary. This is what you do all the time. You need to go talk to a professional, I am not a therapist, I can’t help you. A trauma therapist can help you. Right now, all you’re doing is you’re just regurgitating everything that’s happened. You need steps to help you keep moving forward so that you don’t keep living in the past. And if they come unglued. They may be like, well, you’re not a real friend, blah, blah, blah. But I’m sorry, if a friend walked up to me and said you should probably go see a therapist, I would go Okay, and go see a therapist. So, you know somebody who trauma dumps all the time generally is not interested in change. So, people who are interested in change, ask questions, what can I do about this? Can I change this? Can I help this? You know, what, what do you think I should do? And then you know, you can give them your opinion. But if they’re just coming and going, you know, and just vomiting all of this trauma all over you but not doing anything not working a workbook not seeking therapy, not doing anything to better themselves, then you need to stop because now that’s enabling them because now they’re just victim, victim, victim, victim, victim, and you don’t want that and they may or may not stick around, you know, because again, if they’re covert Narcissus, and they’re the constant victim or if they’re the hermit borderline, and they’re the constant victim, there’s a payoff for their behavior and if you’re not giving them the payoff, then why should they stick around? So, you have to be prepared to lose that friend so you recommend that they go get trauma therapy, recommend the books and if they don’t do anything to better themselves, then you know that they’re not interested in change. They’re just interested in being a victim and just vomiting all over you so you don’t have to take that you absolutely don’t boundaries. Boundaries. Okay.

Okay, this is going to be our last question because I am losing my voice. Can some people become codependent because we wrongly internalize messages from our parents that they didn’t intend to give? Or is it always from hearing overt messages? No, we can internalize unsaid things too. I don’t believe in coincidences. I don’t. So, parents can also give nonverbal you need to take care of me clues and that’s never a mistake. So yes, it can be nonverbal it can be over it can be covert. Absolutely. They can be both so yeah and basically again get with a good trauma therapist undo the mistaken thoughts undo the mistaken beliefs You do not have to caretake everybody in order to be loved and that’s our big thing is that we think that if we care take them we’re going to be loved but really what ends up happening is we take over responsibility for them we kill ourselves doing it and then they get resentful. Yeah, no, it always backfires always so what you want to do is you want to work on self-esteem The Self-esteem Workbook Glen Schiraldi.  All the boundaries Harriet Braiker The Disease to Please awesome book. Inner Child work. Figure out how old you were when this all started The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor. Mirror work “Hi, good to see you! Have a great day! I give you permission to say no and mean it!” and then walk out. So yeah, alright guys, I am losing my voice quickly. Be good. Take care of yourselves. Drink plenty of water and I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

The post Throwback Thursday: 10-03-2021 DEPENDENT VS CODEPENDENT appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  01:00

Hi, guys. Okay, so lots of things to talk about. So, Today is Mother’s Day. And it I’ve already been talking with some people that are having a really hard time. If your mother was abusive or is abusive, know that you’re loved. Know that. we hear you, we see you, we get it, you know, the people here on this channel, get it. So, you know, you’re not alone. It is a hard day, I feel the same way about Father’s Day because my dad was abusive to me. So, I can only imagine how people are feeling about Mother’s Day when their mother was abusive to them. So, Mother’s Day is difficult. So, take a deep breath, grab some water, allow yourself to grieve, or get angry or whatever. Journal. Write. Get it out of your head, get it onto paper, and just know you’re not alone. We’ve all been here we’ve, we’ve all been through it, either with our dads or moms or both, you know, and so it is a hard day, it is and just you know, feel the feelings allow and self-care like a boss on today or every day but particularly on difficult days, like Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, so and don’t allow the flying monkeys big important point. Don’t allow the flying monkeys to use fear obligation or guilt to coerce you into getting into contact if you’ve gone on no contact, getting into contact again with your abuser so be aware of that it’s Mother’s Day so yeah, the flying monkeys are out in force the stories I have been hearing would Yeah, just oh my goodness. Anyway, don’t allow them to use fear obligation or guilt to coerce you into contacting your abuser especially if you’ve gone no contact stay no contact if you’ve gone no contact stay no contact you know if you’ve gone low contact maybe send them a text you know but be aware you know this is this is this is a day for Hoover’s for abusive mothers. So, there that is deep breath guys, you’re gonna get through it gentle with you gentle with you, whatever your feeling is valid.

Whatever you are feeling is valid. So just allow, just allow okay, sorry, heavy, heavy message first off, but you know, you got to feel the feelings. I know you don’t want to feel the feelings. I know feelings. Emotions are scary to us because emotions have been made scary to us by our abusers because remember, abusers don’t feel emotions the way we do. So when we have a genuine emotion, we usually got punished. And and if we held our parental abuser accountable, we would get punished. You know, it’s like how dare you see the pink elephant taking a crap in the corner of the living room, you know what I’m saying? So, it’s important to feel the feels it is it is because you got to feel it to heal it and you’ve got to acknowledge it and validate it and work through it. So, in other words, you don’t want to resist it. You don’t want to be like, no, no, no, no, no, don’t wanna feel, I don’t want to think about it. I don’t want to feel, I don’t want to think about… what are you doing the whole time? Feeling it and thinking about it. You’re just resisting it. What you want to do is go I feel sad, I feel angry. I feel betrayed. I feel you know, whatever. Write! Get it out of your head. Get it onto paper. Listen to me. Now believe me later. It helps get it out of your head. Get it onto paper, trot it out to the barbecue, read it out loud once burn it, burn it, let it go. Practice because that helps our brains go oh, I’ve done something I can let it go now. So, there that is.

Today we are going to talk about mostly covert narcissists. So, I am going to hit on overt and communal because they too play games, but they’re a little different. So covert narcissists are also known as the vulnerable narcissists. I hate that term I there they’re about as vulnerable as a don’t even get me started. So um, they’re known as the vulnerable narcissist. So, if you look at the Drama Triangle, they play the victim. Okay. They do. It’s like villain, victim hero. They’re the victim always. And if they’re not playing the victim, they are overly, overly saccharine. Sweet. Nice, like, unbelievably. So, does that make sense? So, they, they’re chameleons. They’re chameleons, and they usually play for the sympathy card. So, it’s kind of akin to how do I explain this? In working with couples and the mother-in-law, It’s Mother’s Day, let’s go ahead and pick on the mother in law’s so especially the ones that are abusive. The mother-in-law was covert, covert, covert, covert, lured and lulled the, the wife, the new wife into a sense of safety. Sweet little old lady, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, fast forward a few years, the woman demands to move in.

Kris Godinez  06:03

And, you know, oh, I can’t take care of myself. I can’t you know, it’s it. The winters are too hard. I need someplace to stay blah, blah, blah. So. they come they stay? And what does the covert narcissist do? The covert narcissist starts picking on the wife, and, you know, saying things to her, her son, you know, and saying things like, Oh, well, you know, she’s spending all your money, no proof. Right? Well, she’s, you know, she’s doing this, that and the other thing and, and, you know, you need to look at your bank account and dadadadadadadada you know, and just dripping poison into her son’s ear, which eventually caused a blow up in the relationship, right? Because the mother-in-law is continually dripping poison, dripping poison, but to the wife in front of the wife. Oh, I’m just here to help. Oh, I just, I just, I just love staying with you guys. I just, I’m just the sweet, little innocent, I haven’t done anything wrong. You know. So, they come off as this very two faced, but they come off as this very innocent, very nice, you know, gentle kind of little old lady that wouldn’t hurt a fly, you know. And in reality, she’s like the Terminator. So. So that’s how covert narcissists operate in. That’s why it’s called covert because they’re hiding, they’re hiding.

Kris Godinez  07:32

So they are the ones that that really, you know, you put on a front and play the victim. And as soon as they’re found out, oh my gosh, that victim stuff comes forward. So, this is something that they do. They they, ah, some they’ll get caught. And then they’ll have some sort of illness. Right, so you can’t get mad at them. That’s that’s how the covert narcissists operate. It’s like, they’ll get caught in their bad behavior. And then they’ll get sick, or they’ll hurt themselves, somehow they’ll fall they’ll, you know, have a car accident, they’ll, you know, I don’t believe in coincidences, guys. I really, truly don’t. So they avoid responsibility at all costs. And the other thing they love to do is when they are playing the victim, it’s always this overly dramatic. This, how to explain this. Covert narcissists are akin to hermit borderlines. So, these two play the same game, it’s very similar. So what they do is, is they do this very dramatic, why do these things always happen to me, and you start looking at what things they’re talking about. And it’s it’s behaviors that they have done, that have created the problem or the issue that they’re now facing. So, for example, they’ve alienated you know, the Son, the daughter, the you know, the daughter in law, the the grandkids, whatever, and then they go to everybody else and paint themselves as this Oh, victim, and why are they doing this and dadadadada? Well, okay, let’s take a look at your behavior. You tried to break up their marriage, you lied. You dripped poison in your son’s ear, you made it to the point where the son was terrified to go get help, because of what your reaction would be. Um, and then when they finally did go get help and figured out what was going on, they exed you out of their lives as well they should you see where I’m going with that and it’s never their fault. It is never their fault, never their fault, never their fault. And so they then play for the sympathy and they’re there. How do I put it when they’re, they’re charming. So, Narcissus any of the narcissists can can be charming narcissists, but particularly the quote unquote vulnerable ones. Really play that card. That is their main play. Like if they can’t be the victim then they’re going to be saccharin sweet, charming, nice innocence little old lady little old man little innocent me I couldn’t possibly harm a fly you know that whole thing. So that’s why I think that when the covert narcissist mask slips it’s really shocking, you know, especially to those that were taken in by it right initially because initially the covert narcissist comes off as overly helpful, overly sweet, overly charming, overly this overly that. And as soon as their needs don’t get met or they do not get their way then the mask slips and it slips only with the family members that they are conning, basically. And to the rest of the world. Everyone’s like, why are you guys are having such a problem? This this person is so kind, this person is so sweet, and they’re not seeing what’s going on behind closed doors. They’re not seeing the manipulation, they’re not seeing the lies. They’re not seeing the poison dripping that they’re doing. They’re not seeing the anger so.

So covert narcissists are not okay. Not even with their own anger. So, when their anger comes out, it’s scary. It’s like how to explain this. It’s like this vicious.

Kris Godinez  11:27

I’m gonna say the word wrong. I think it’s vitriol, vitriol, this vicious vitriol that just comes flying out of them. And they’re, they’re passive, aggressive, like nobody’s business. So, their passive aggressiveness is just nasty. It’s just, you know, snide little comments, snide little, you know, getting it. And it’s always done in private, so they don’t do the nastiness in front of, say, for example, their child that they’re trying to manipulate, right? So now it’s a case of He Said, She Said, between the couple of Look, your mother did this, this, this and this, and a child going no, she couldn’t have blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Do you see where I’m going with that. it’s terrifying. It’s terrifying, because if they get that much power and control over their child, it’s gonna blow the marriage up. It will blow the marriage. And, and when it’s not just in mother in laws, you’re gonna find covert narcissists, everywhere. So these are the ones that do the biting nasty, hit and run, screw yous, passive aggressive.

You know, like, I’m so sorry, I’m describing your parents. Good lord. Like you just described my parents. I’m like, I’m sorry. That’s terrible. I’m sorry. Because it is terrible. Because they’re awful. They’re awful. The covert narcissists are awful, because you’ve got all of the public out there going, Oh, you’re mother’s such a saint or Oh, your father’s such a saint. And you’re sitting there going, Oh, hell, no, they’re not. Have you seen them behind closed doors? You want to hear some of the things that they’ve said? Do you see where I’m going with that? So covert narcissists are harder to unmask, I think than the overt and the communal, because the overt and communal are pretty like out there, you know what I’m saying? And they can’t really maintain very long, the comer ones seem to be able to maintain the mask a little bit longer, mainly because I think they keep bouncing between the game playing and closed doors. So they’re not getting that societal, you can’t be doing that. You shouldn’t be doing that. Stop doing that, right? So they’re not getting the societal, you know, mind your P’s and Q’s kind of thing. Plus, the fact they slip into the victim. So, it’s like they bounce. It’s like you’re watching this. Because remember, narcissists emotionally are operating on a level of maybe on a good day, if the wind is blowing in the right direction on a Tuesday, maybe a four year old, maybe. And so, when they flip into the victim, it’s very much a childlike, childish, not childlike, childish, you know, Why does this always happen to me? Why is this going on? I’m innocent, I don’t deserve that, you know, and they do they sound like a six-year-old or a four-year-old or whatever. And, of course, what does that do to every single Empath that’s around them? Oh, you poor thing. I’m so sorry. How can I help what’s wrong? How can we make this better? You know, and then everybody around them starts giving them attention, and everybody around them starts bending over backwards. And of course, what is the narcissist doing? They’re sitting there going, I got what I wanted! I got what I wanted! Yeah, because that’s what they wanted. They wanted the attention and healthy, normal person does not do that if they need attention. They just want to like go yo, I need attention.

Kris Godinez  15:03

You know, so but like, with a narcissist with a with a with a covert narcissist, they play games, and they play these childish games, and they play this vicious tit for tat. So, if they feel oh my lord, if they feel that a family member has offended them in some way, or you know, their son or their daughter has offended, or their daughter in law, or their son in law has offended them in some way, they will do tit for tat. So, if you don’t ask how high when they say jump, they will double down on the lying to other family members, to the spouse to the whatever, in order to make you the bad guy. And in order to make you suffer. Because let’s face it, if you look at any of these narcissists, any and all of them, they are all suffering they are in because they are suffering, not in the sense that they get it, obviously, because if you know most people when they’re suffering, they’re like, Oh, my foot hurts. Maybe I should stop slamming the door on it, you know. But with Narcissists, it’s like they keep slamming the door demanding that the door move. You know, it’s like they never take responsibility for them slamming the door on themselves. Does that make sense? I hope that was a good analogy. So they’re suffering, they’re suffering, they’re suffering and out of that suffering out of their suffering, they want everyone else and their dog to suffer because they are A holes. So forgot to turn the sound off. Um, so okay. So they’re suffering they want everybody else to suffer. But specifically, and, and to the point…They want power and control but they’re going to try to have oh, what’s the word? palpable culpability, like they they can they can, they can deny the alibi because they’ve got an alibi like, I would never do that. I’m the nicest thing ever, you know, so yeah, so dealing with a covert narcissist is a little bit more difficult because I do think it takes a little bit longer for them to have the mask slip fully. And once it does, though, you, you what is seen cannot be unseen. What is heard, cannot be unheard.

And I think what happens to a lot of us is that we get hit with the covert narcissist. And of course, they’re like a tidal wave of love bombing in the beginning, right? Because that’s what narcissists do. And then we get lulled into this false sense of security, and then by the time they finally drop their masks, we’re like, no, no, there’s no they’re having a bad day. You know? That’s no, they’re okay, you know, eh? I suddenly turned Canadian It’s like, they’re having a bad day. I couldn’t possibly be them. No, it’s and it takes a while of repetition of the bad behavior before it finally sinks in like, you know, a ton of bricks going, mother Clucker they’re a covert narc. Holy. Oh my god, do you see where I’m going with that? So it does, it hits us like, like getting broadsided at a four way stop. You know, it’s like you didn’t see it coming. Even though you could kind of see it coming but because of their previous behavior, you really kind of couldn’t see it coming. Does that make sense? So they do the nicey nicey nicey nicey nicey nicey thing and then the mask slips. Oh boy, the the hit and run screw us and the passive aggressive and the just nasty. So really quickly, I want to hit how much time? Do I have? 10 minutes. Okay, before I hit the questions.

Okay, so that is what covert narcissist do and that is why they’re so hard to covert, they’re hidden, they’re hidden. That’s what covert means. Overt means it’s over over here you can see it, covert means it’s hidden. And that’s why they’re so hard to see initially unless you know what to look for. And that’s why they’re so damaging. Because they’ve got the wool pulled over so many people’s eyes and as they get older, they are less able to maintain, they’re less able to keep up the nicey, nicey whole thing and as they age, again, nursing homes are filled with these people and they do things to get attention they harm themselves they do self-harm, but not in a way that’s going to kill them or leave any permanent thing but enough to get sympathy. So that’s what I see a lot of the older covert narcissist doing kind of thing. And again, it’s tough for the kids with a covert narcissist parent because when they realize it, and they try to tell people what happens. The people around go, oh, no, that no, no, that’s they’ve never done that to me.

Kris Godinez  19:56

Okay, if a child tells me that somebody’s doing something really horrible, I’m gonna believe the child. You know, it just it boggles the mind when people go, Well, they’ve never done that to me, okay, well, but they don’t, they don’t just… if they treated everybody like dirt, then everybody would be like, go pound sand, have a nice day, and when I say have a nice day, I mean, go pound sand. You know what I’m saying. So, they don’t treat everybody like you, they treat the people closest to them that love them, like dirt. Because they can because they’ve gotten away with it. And so the thing that I would say is that if you’re dealing with a narcissistic in law of any kind, cut them off at their knees, get into couples counseling with your spouse, so that your spouse understands fully the danger, like seriously, this is dangerous, not just to the to the child, but it’s dangerous to the relationship, the marital relationship, and get with a good trauma therapist and somebody that can explain to the spouse exactly what’s going on. Oftentimes, with these covert female narcissists with the mother in laws, what they really want is to make the child, divorce the spouse and come home and take care of them.

Kris Godinez  21:11

That’s what they really want. That’s their goal. That’s that’s their whole endgame. Now, they’ll never outwardly admit to that. But that’s their whole end game. And they relish when the couple is having arguments, because well look at that, oh, they’re arguing, oh, good, you know, they relish that stuff. Whereas a healthy normal person A would not get involved in somebody else’s relationship, and B, would not want an adult child to have to come home to take care of them, you know what I’m saying?

So, um, so what you want to do is you want to, as soon as you can get you and your spouse or your spouse alone into therapy, because they need to understand what this parent is doing his parent is, is, what’s the word I’m looking for? A snake, a brown recluse, a black widow, they’re sneaky, they hide, and then they strike, you know what I’m saying. And so the child of the narcissist may not be fully aware, they may have some sort of inkling that they don’t like that particular parent, they may have some sort of inkling that something’s off. But they may not get the depth of the betrayal that this person is doing on their marriage, on their self-esteem, on their agency on their whatever. So um, yeah, so you want to cut them off, cut them off, cut off the covert narcissist, get them out of your life, this is going to have to be a deal breaker if you’ve got an in law that is interfering in your relationships. That is, you know, controlling your spouse and is, you know, lying about you than Houston, you got a big ass problem! You need to get into couples counseling. And first make sure that this person, the spouse is willing to go work on themselves and willing to confront the family of origin. Because remember, that’s a terrifying proposition. When you finally go, oh, my gosh, my mom really didn’t have my back, my dad really didn’t have my back, and having to process all that inner child stuff. So, you are really going to have to get with a really good trauma therapist to work on your marriage to strengthen your marriage, and then your spouse is going to need to be an individual and probably you’re going to need to be an individual. So, there is that and then what you do is you just put them off.

So, every time the covert narcissist is like, oh, I want to come live with you. Nope, sorry, we got trips planned, or whatever. In this case, it’s okay to do a white lie seriously, because you do not want this person living with you for any amount of time because as soon as they come back into the system, guess what they’re going to be doing again, same old thing that they’ve done every single time. So, you just want to be like, Nope, sorry, that’s not gonna work. We got houseguests. We’re traveling we’re you know, whatever. So um, and especially when they get to the point of Geriatric that’s when they started going. Well, I want to live with you. Oh, hell no. Hell no. Absofreakinglutely not! Nope, sorry. You’ve got medical needs that I cannot handle. We need to make sure that somebody can handle them. There you go. Simple to the point, you know. So that is how you deal with that.

I need to get to the other two before so Okay, so that’s covert narcissist. Those are the games they play with that they play the victim play the victim play that nicey nicey play the victim. So, with the overt narcissist, I just want to touch on these other two with the overt narcissist their game playing is mostly intimidation, like out in the open, intimidation, bullying out in the open bully. You know, if you don’t do what I want I’m going to fill in the blank, you know, I’ll sue you, I’ll hit you, I’ll hurt you or, you know, whatever. They’re, they’re out there. So the overt narcissists will tell you exactly what they’re going to do. You just have to listen. So, I again I have been watching signs of psychopath on the ID channel and I’ve been watching dangerous women I love thos two shows. And when they’re, I don’t like dangerous women as much as I like signs of a psychopath because they’ve got the the psychiatrists that kind of chime in and are like, did you see this? Did you hear this? I don’t believe this. Yeah. And I’m like that, but um, in signs of a psychopath, that a lot of these, a lot of these psychopaths just point blank said exactly what they were going to do. And I’ve seen that with narcissists. You know, they’ll say things like, you know, I feel sorry for my family and friends. Okay, why? And then, because they’ve said too much. And they knew they said too much. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, it’s like they this is, it’s like the playbook. It’s nowhere no matter where you are in the world, they all do the same thing. So, the older ones are the ones that are more likely to spill the beans and point blank tell you what I’m, you know what I’m going to do? Kind of thing. Um, the covert ones. Nicey, nicey. You know, hit and run, screw yous that whole thing.

The communal It’s okay? So the communal narcissists use the guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, so think of it this way. coverts use the guilt as well, because they play the victim. Right? But it’s, it’s more the guilt with the victimhood. Does that make sense? So those, those two are kind of interlocked together the guilt with the victimhood. You know, poor me, why does everything happen to me this whole thing, feel sorry for me, you should feel guilty, you’re not here taking care of me, blah, blah, blah, right? With the overts. It’s bullying, it’s out out in the open, I am going to fill in the blank, you know, with whatever nastiness that they’re going to do, or I feel sorry for my family and friends, or, you know, they say exactly what they’re going to do with the communal narcissist it is guilt, but it is obligation and fear, right fear, obligation, guilt, and it’s mixed with the religious stuff. So, I’m going to make you feel obligated, I’m gonna make you feel guilty. And it’s all religious stuff. And they’re hiding behind whatever religious tenets that they’re claiming to represent. So, um, so yeah, they all play these different games. So, all of them do the fear, obligation and guilt, they just do it in slightly different ways, they do. So, with the covert narcissist, you want to be on the lookout for somebody who is too good to possibly be believed. And remember, they never take responsibility for a damn thing ever. It is always somebody else’s fault. And this is true of all of the types of narcissism, it’s always somebody else’s fault.

Kris Godinez  27:40

With the covert, it’s the nicey, nicey nicey, hit and run screw yous victimhood, but it’s never their fault. They never take responsibility. Well, so and so told me if I did that, this wouldn’t happen. Well, who are you listening to? You know, do you see where I’m going with that? With the overts it’s bullying, it’s out in the open, it’s intimidation, it’s, um, you know, I’m going to let it slip what I’m going to do to you, and they do all the time, with the communal narcissists, and yet the overts use fear, obligation and guilt as well. But it’s, it’s out in the open with the communal narcissist, it’s the guilt with the religious thing. Well, you’re not going to get into heaven unless you do everything I tell you, unless you give me all your money. You know, that’s basically what a communal narcissist does Jim Jones, any of those religious cults, you know, they’re using that fear, obligation, guilt. So really, what you’re looking for is any relationship, any any any any relationship, whether it’s parental units, whether it’s a boss, whether it’s a romantic relationship, whether it’s a friend, coworkers, whatever, if anyone is doing hit and run screw yous, using fear using obligation or using guilt to keep you in a relationship with them. That is a ginormous, red flag. So as soon as you figure out whether they’re overt or covert or communal, as soon as you figure out who and what they are, and as soon as you see them… run, do not walk to the nearest exit, it does not get better. It doesn’t.

And if you’re in a co worker situation, you figure out that one of these coworkers is one of these covert narcissists. You’re going to get hit with a smear campaign. Absolutely. But they’re going to do it in such a way that they’re going to try to make you look crazy if you say anything, because that’s what these mother Cluckers do. So yeah, so if you can get away from them. You can you know, move departments, you can change jobs, you can whatever. So yeah, they’re they don’t, they don’t get better, they get worse and they are vindictive. Oh, my God. I mean, all narcissists tend to be vindictive, that I find the communal nurses or not, the communal covert nurses are way deadlier in a way because they are covert because they’re playing, you know, nicey, nicey. And, you know, I wouldn’t hurt a fly meanwhile, they’re like, you know, stabbing you in the back kind of thing. So, yeah, they’re, um, yeah, they’re they’re there. There’s something, they’re something else.

So yes, the covert narcissists are kind of a little more difficult to catch on to initially. But once they’re mask slip, there’s no, there’s no going back because you see them clearly. And the only thing you can do is get away, get away, cut them off, go, no contact, if you’re with a spouse, and the spouse has been influenced by the parent, encourage them to go to therapy. And of course, the covert narcissist is going to try to stop the spouse from going to therapy, and you cannot… that your relationship will not survive if that happens. So hopefully, the spouse is strong enough to not overshare things with the covert parent, and to go to therapy and start working on themselves. So hopefully, that’s what will happen. If, however, you get into therapy and stuff is getting back to your abusive mother-in-law or father-in-law. You need to be done. You need to be done; it’s not going to get better. They’re siding with the abuser and they’re not ever going to not side with the abuser. Does that make sense? So, unless they work on themselves, and if they’re not willing to work on themselves, then what is the point? Does that make sense? So, there that is, okay, let’s hit the questions shall we Dun, dun, dun, okay.

Does anyone ever read your book and say, Oh, that career isn’t for me? Yeah, actually, people do. Because I think people have a really skewed sense of what therapy is. So, and I talk about it in the book, you know, because a lot of people, they think that all we do is just sit on our hind ends and just listen to people all day. They’re not seeing all of the paperwork, all of the phones to help phone calls to the police. All of the CPS calls, all of the welfare checks all.

Kris Godinez  32:05

There’s a lot that goes into this job. There really is. Yeah, some people do read my book. And they’re like, oh, hell now. And I’m like, Yeah, well, you’ve got it’s it is, like I said, being a therapist, being a social worker, being a counselor of any kind, really, is a calling. It’s a calling. You need to love it. You do. It’s like, if you don’t love it, get out of my profession. That’s all I gotta say. So, if you’re not like excited in the morning to wake up and go see your clients get out of my profession, because when I wake up in the morning, I look forward to seeing my clients, I worry about them. I do. I like my clients. I do. So yeah, some people read my book, and they’re like, oh, yeah, no, like, Okay, well, you need to figure out what else you’d like to do. Because this is the reality of being a therapist. So yeah, that does happen. It does. But you know, I figure it’s better that way than somebody go through all of the training, and all of the work and all of the heartache, and oh, my gosh, all of the schooling and all of the money involved in that and then get into the real profession, and then be like, Oh, this isn’t what I thought it was gonna be and then be miserable. And then, you know, not be good for their clients. So, yeah, so yeah, if you know somebody that’s thinking about becoming a therapist, so you want to be a therapist, have them read it, because it’s basically lays it out. It’s like, this is what the master’s degree is like, this is what being in private practice is like, this is what being in a agency is like, this is what you know, so yeah. All right. That was a good question.

Um, how do I stop gaslighting myself? Oh, into mom is a good person. She’s just misunderstood. And my ex had a reason to cheat. I don’t give enough in the relationship. Oh, Bunny. Okay. Take a deep breath. Everybody take a deep breath. So, we are groomed. We are groomed to be in denial. It’s called cognitive dissonance. So, when incoming information doesn’t match what our abusers have been telling us, it’s called cognitive dissonance and it sends us into this tailspin of second guessing and oh, well, no, they must. They know they really do have my back. Oh, no, they really are a good person. Oh, well, no, they cheated because of me. What? No, stop. Deep breath everybody deep breath. So, when they do that, when they when they show us who they really are. The little kid inside it’s little it’s little you it’s little kid. It’s literally an inner child. Okay, especially with a mom going, Oh, well, you know, they just have a hard life. Oh, well, you know, that we do we make excuses for our abuser. We do. We do. You know, because we can’t. It’s really hard to… It’s really hard to accept that the person who supposedly should be loving us the most hates us the most. And that’s what these narcissistic parents do. And it’s really hard for that inner child to get it’s not them. It’s not the inner child. It’s not you. It’s not you, you did nothing wrong. So, getting back to the question, Hey, hang on, um okay. Ah, let’s see, how do I stop myself from gaslighting mom is a good person. She’s just misunderstood. We have to answer that part first. So, what I want you to do is I want you to write down all of the things she’s ever done to you. Okay. And I want you to be very clear that none of those had anything, like literally anything to do with you. Every behavior that she had, that was harmful, hurtful, whatever, was a choice. And here’s the next question. Has she done anything to make amends for that? Is she in therapy? Is she working on herself? Is she doing anything to make herself a better person? If the answer to that is No, stop, stop. Hello, little one. Hello. She’s not just misunderstood. She is now actively choosing to be abusive. You know, it’s like, look, lots of people have come from abusive backgrounds, lots of people, they don’t all go on to become abusers.

Kris Godinez  36:33

So, I don’t care what the person’s background is. If they’re using that as the excuse and I’m wondering, Where did you hear that from? Oh, she’s just misunderstood. Did mom say that a lot. Oh, I’m just misunderstood. I’m just nobody understands me. I had a rough childhood. Okay, join the frickin club lady. Do you see where I’m going with that? Everybody’s had a rough childhood that has been raised by a narcissist. We don’t go on to become abusers. So, what is you know? Is she getting help? No. Okay, now it’s a choice. Okay. She’s not just misunderstood. She is actively and intently choosing to be abusive. This isn’t just an oops I abused somebody this is a I thought it out and I’m doing it because I refuse to go get help. So that’s how you stop gaslighting yourself with that please, please please CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. Read it, work it get the disease to please by Harriet breaker. Okay, this is all about boundaries. It’s about the codependency because there’s a little bit of codependency going on. Okay. The self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, this is also a self-esteem issue. Because we don’t make people who love themselves do not make excuses for their abuser. Now, the second half of that question is, my ex had a reason to cheat. I don’t I don’t give enough in the relationship. The only people that cheat are people generally that have a personality disorder. And they’re the ones that love to point to the spouse that they’re cheating on and go You made me. You made me cheat. You made me do this. You made me hit you. You made me lie to you. You made me you made you. You. You You You guns, okay. No, it has not yet the relationship was that rocky? Why didn’t they suggest you guys go to couples counseling? Right. But since we already know this person is probably an abuser based on the fact that they’re cheating. And you’re feeling like it’s all your fault. I would say don’t go to couples counseling because that’s very dangerous to go to couples counseling with an abuser, okay, because they’ll twist it, they’ll try to manipulate the therapist, they’ll try to make it on you. They’ll try to you know, fill in the blank. So, when somebody cheats that is on them, that is on them. That is absolutely 110% on them. So, get with a good trauma therapist, start working on your own self-esteem and your own boundaries. What is your list of deal breakers? What will you not put up with from anybody? And on that list should be lying, cheating, stealing, gaslighting, rewriting history, disrespect, name calling. Hmm. thinking what else? Well, those are the major ones. Yeah. So, if this person is doing any of that behavior, buh bye. Bye bye now. Buh bye. We’re done bye because they just crossed over your back break your boundary list your list of deal breakers, the it’s like if they cross over a deal breaker be done. Because they’re showing you who they are. That makes sense. Okay, so get with a good trauma therapist.

Okay, um, wha does my covert narc make herself dependent on others on purpose. My narc mother was dependent on others her whole life pretended to be helpless, and never do anything for herself. Yes, this is part of the victimhood so learned helplessness. So, this is what drives me crazy about these mothers in laws these mothers these men, these women because men can be covert narcissists to where they’re just like, I can’t do it. Like I don’t know how you’ll have to do it for me. Oh, puhleeze really? So, they do this whole learned helplessness I can’t do it you need to do it for me and what you’re not so what most empaths hear when they hear that is Oh sure. I’ll do it for you no problem right because you don’t want I’m capable I can do this. I can help you out. What you’re not hearing is the power and control play that was just made. Oh, you need to do it for me. And then you do it for them. So now what are they doing internally? Look what I made them I got them to me I wonder how much more I can get them to do for me.

Kris Godinez  41:04

That’s why they do the learned helplessness. It drives me crazy. It really does it just it’s like and then when people fall for it and given to them, and you know Oh you poor thing and let me help you. I’m like Stop. Just stop this is a game this is this is BS. This is a game,… stop. Well, but they’re old and they’re this and they’re that did it stop. I know plenty of 90 year olds that can actually program electronics. I do. I know plenty plenty of 80 year olds that can do stuff around the house I know plenty of do you see where I’m going with that. And I’m not saying now if they obviously they have disability obviously there’s things that they cannot do. But in a lot of times with these covert narcissists do is they play the victim and they do learn helplessness. And it’s like this so here’s the here’s the spouse or the kid or whoever who’s functional. Here’s the covert narcissist Oh, you’ve got to do this for me. You’ve got to do that for me. I just I can’t you’ll have to think for the both of us I swear to God If I hear one more movie that says there I’m gonna slap somebody. So, you know this whole I can’t think for myself you need to think for me, I can’t do this. You need to do it for me. And it’s a power and control issue. You’ve got to understand every single game that these mother Cluckers do is a power and control issue. They’re looking to see if they have control over you. They’re looking to see if they can manipulate you they’re looking to see if they can make you clean up after them.

Oh, okay, here’s a great one. So crazy crazy covert narcissist will often and they’ve got a thing with feces. I don’t know what the hell that is. But they’ve got this obsession with their bodily functions a lot of them especially the older ones. And they will do things like smear the bathroom with feces and then demand that the spouse clean it up or that the kids clean it up and oh I can’t do it. I’m just so weak and I’m so old or I’m you know I oh no you need to clean it up. It’s a power issue guys cleaning up poo from an adult is a power issue especially when there’s no physical issues going on. There’s no reason that the entire bathroom should be smeared floor to ceiling with feces. Do you see where I’m going with that and a lot of them have got feces issues it’s really this done don’t get that one but yeah, a lot of them have got the feces feces issues and they want their children or their spouse to clean it up we’ll get in there and clean it up I’m not going to do it you do it

Kris Godinez  43:32

I’m sorry what? You just smeared your feces all over the mirror and now you want me to clean it up? How ‘bout you get your old sorry ass in there and do it you know I mean it’s just, it’s just and there’s no there’s no Alzheimer’s or anything like that dementia anything like that going on. So, let’s be clear. This was a power and control move on the part of the covert narcissist. So yeah, it they are a special kind of cray cray. I’ll tell you that much. Um, yes, they pretend to be helpless. And they never do anything for themselves because again, they think that if they play the victim all the time, that they’ll never be alone that they’ll have a constant supply. It’s really all about supply. So again, I want you to extrapolate you know what we’ve been talking about it’s like what a narcissist needs? Supply! When do they need it? Yesterday! And so how do they secure the supply? In any way they can. So overt narcissist, you know, charming flashing the money, you know, outgoing this out the other thing, communal narcissists, I am the way in the light. I know the answers you must give me all your money. You know, that’s how they secure their supplies. Covert narcissists, play the victim, play the victim, play the victim learned helplessness, play the victim play the victim, because then they know that there’s always going to be a sucker out there that’s going to be like, Oh, you poor thing. You don’t know how to do X, Y and Z. Let me do it for you. You know, and that’s why I’m saying you I cannot enable these people, you cannot enable these people because if you give them an inch, they will take three and a half miles. Seriously. All right, let’s see, what is the next question?

How do I deal with the guilt of letting go of toxic parents in their old age and move on with my own life? Okay, get with a good trauma therapist serious as a heart attack. If you have let go of toxic parents, and you’ve gone no-contact and they are aging, they will often do the medical Hoover, oh, I’m dying, you need to come see me, I miss you blah, blah, blah. You know, and you just don’t respond. It’s like, I’m sorry. But if these abusers wanted to have family and friends around them, in their old age, how ‘bout they not abuse people. How about they act like decent human beings? How about they be kind, how about they be, you know, thinking of somebody else other than themselves. So, they use the guilt, fear, obligation, guilt, to manipulate and to control, you have nothing to feel guilty about, you have nothing to feel guilty about. If you choose not to be around them. That is your prerogative. If you were not related to these people, would you have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly, act accordingly. You know, I think a lot of people go to these deathbed, you know, suppose it deathbed visitations hoping that the parent will be kind or apologetic or loving, or, you know, some last nugget of adult wisdom, but you’re not dealing with an adult, you know, and you’re not dealing with somebody who’s empathic and you’re not dealing with somebody who’s kind and you’re not dealing with somebody who is loving, you’re not, you know, and a lot of times unfortunately, these kids go and when I say kids, I mean adult kids 50/60s you know, adult kids go to see the parent on their supposed deathbed and what is the parent do spews vitriol all over them. You know, and it was just like a final reminder of okay, yeah, go pound sand. We’re done. You know, but it was a last screw you from the parent. And that to me is just yeah, hope they get what they deserve. So, you know what I’m saying? So, either this this lifetime or the next so because that’s that’s a heinous thing to do. Death is hard enough for the living okay. It’s hard enough for the survivors.

Kris Godinez  48:01

And so when you have a parent who is tit for tat, the Tallionic, nasty arrogance, narcissistic, whatever, and they just want their last screw you to use so that you’ll feel bad. How dare they? They’re scum in my in my opinion, absolute scum. So yeah, just really think twice about having anything to do with them….. that if you were not related to them, would you have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly. It doesn’t matter how old they are. They have made their bed they can go lie in it that seriously that’s how I feel. So, there it is. All right, get with a good trauma therapist work on the guilt because you don’t need to be around people that are toxic.

Okay, um, how can an overt narcissist and a covert narc end up in a situation where they abuse each other in a family relationship? Okay, so this is how I want you to think about it overt narcissists, all right, the real bombastic bullies, you know loud, obnoxious, you know, that kind of thing. Live to chew up, to eat covert narcissists and borderlines That’s their favorite meal… swear to God because they can you know, the victim thing for the covert narcissist and the incredibly sensitive thing for the borderline so they eat them up they eat them up and they spit them out and they love it. They love it. The abusers love it so the covert narcissist and the overt narcissist oftentimes do get together you will often see this in divorce cases so you know the empath divorces the narcissist they go to live their life suddenly the narcissist is with this other narcissist usually the covert, right a minor a little bit minor narcissist, right, there’s minor, minor and bunny ears. So, they do that and then they either both turn on the spouse or the spouse is able to get the heck away, and there’s nothing for them to continue to throw at them. And so then they turn on each other And it’s just this drama filled drama, drama filled Academy Award winning scream fest, you know, pointing fingers. I’m the victim You did this to me bla bla bla bla bla and it’s supply. It is supply for both of them because they are cray cray. Let’s be clear technical term. cray cray. They’re cray cray that remember the narcissist, the Narcissists worst nightmare is being forgotten. The Narcissists worst nightmare is being ignored. That’s why gray rock is so wonderful and that’s why they hate it. So, yeah, the narcissists worst fear is being ignored, forgotten and having no supply. So, when this negativity is going back and forth, and they’re eating each other up, this is like, this is their buffet this is, this is their supply this… they love negative attention they do. You know, they say they don’t, but they do they love it. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing. So, it’s giving them supply. So, the raging the hating the you know, that whole thing. I mean, it’s just crazy. You know, my dad and his first wife were divorced for 45 years. Okay, they sent each other hate letters back and forth for 45 years. I mean, just Hello. Get on with your life, you know, crazy accusing each other of stuff and yelling at each other and they kept responding. And they wouldn’t stop. Neither one of them would stop neither one of them would let the other one have the last word. You know, and of course it was supply for both of them. It was supply for both of them. They, on some level, really enjoyed it. Of course, my dad would talk about oh my god. You know, that whole thing. So? Yeah. So that’s how they get together. And that’s what happens. And that’s actually the best case scenario. I actually like it when a person divorces and they leave. And there’s no other connection. They can’t throw anything. And now the ex is with another narcissist and they’re just like, Okay, well, you get what you deserve. So there’s that.

Kris Godinez  52:20

Okay. Or in a family situation. Same thing. They, again, they gravitate, because then they can, they can feed off each other. The covert narcissist gets to be the victim, the overt narcissist gets to be a bully. And it’s a cluster clock, if you know what I’m saying. So there it is. Okay. Ah, okay.

I have been how are we doing on time? Okay. I have been in my mother’s. I have been my mother’s mother, ever since I was a little kid. How do I detach from that role that I played for years and stop and Adel, enabling my mother’s word behaviors? Okay. It is difficult, but not impossible. So, and I’ve talked about this in other videos, so there was one I did on parentification. I don’t know how long ago I did that one but go back through and look and see if you can find that particular video. So parentification is where the parents abdicate. They just, they’re immature. They’re narcissists are disordered in some way, shape, or form. And they turn over all of the parenting to us as kids, and we ended up being the parent and they end up being the kid, usually a teenager, you know, like a teenager, they’re like a teenager. And so we’re having to constantly be the parent. And, you know, like, they have no common sense. Like, I swear to God, they have no common sense. And so, things that seem like an obvious, you have to explain that to them, you know, and so they throw us into the role of their parents, they get to be the kid, we’re the parent, and that will have been throughout our entire lives. So um, the way to step out of that is to work on boundaries. You’re not the parent, you’re not! You owe them nothing, fear, obligation, guilt, you owe them nothing. If you’re feeling fearful, obligated or guilty. That is a toxic relationship. Get with a good trauma therapist, get with a good trauma therapist and start untangling that very enmeshed relationship. Does that make sense? And that is what these parents do is they enmesh their child so the child will never leave. So, the child will always feel obligated, so the child will always feel guilty so that the child will always come back and take care of them. Scary. Scary. Seriously, scary, truly scary.

Kris Godinez  54:53

So, I’m there is that okay? All right. So, working on that you’re going to need a trauma therapist you need gonna need to untangle that relationship. I would definitely read CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. disease to please by Harriet braiker, inner child, any of the inner child workbooks. I don’t care which one grab one start working on it. Lots of people have liked the Luccia Cappiochoni book, its coloring book kind of thing and they found it very helpful. Okay, you really you need to disentangle yourself un enmesh yourself. But that’s going to take a trauma therapist to help you go back and figure out when did this first start happening? How old were you? How old are you when you are fearful of letting go of that parent because that’s usually the inner child is what’s stopping us from disentangling and going, Nope, this is your problem. So, get with a good trauma therapist. Get the inner child workbook any inner child workbook I don’t care which one, if it’s Katherine Taylor one great if it’s Luccia Cappiochoni get that one. The get an inner child workbook and start processing this particular issue. Get the disease to please by Harriet Braiker for boundaries and codependency and also get the self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi to work on your self-esteem because you have a right to not be parentifide you do. So yeah, that’s that’s the best way to start doing that. And learning to say no, and meaning it so and I’ve done a couple of videos on that one too. So, learning to say no, when meaning it, you know, you just, you start gradually, and you just start saying no more and more and more and more and more, and they’re not going to like it, they’re going to act out guarantee guarantee they’re going to act out. That’s why it’s good to have a trauma therapist to help you kind of work through I think this next one is going to be our last question.

Okay. How do you deal with the guilt trip from elderly narcs that use the fact they could die any moment against you? I’m sorry, I laugh because they all do that. Okay. So, any relationship that makes you feel fearful, obligated, guilty, I’m gonna keep so I’m just going to keep repeating until this kind of sinks in, okay. Any relationship that makes you feel fearful, obligated or guilty? Is a toxic relationship. In a healthy relationship, you don’t have to keep reminding somebody that you might die. Does that make sense? Nobody’s guaranteed life guys, nobody, we could get hit by a meteor tomorrow. Nobody’s guaranteed it. But what I find is, is that the disordered ones are the ones that are like, I’m dying here. You You don’t care, I’m dying, victim, victim victim, you know, because in a healthy relationship, you don’t have to keep reminding your kids or anybody else that you’re dying. You fricken a know it, you know, but narecissists cry wolf. So often they really do, especially the covert ones. That you know, eventually it’s kind of like, yeah, you’re dying, whatever. No, you’re not, you know, do you see where I’m going with that? So, if they’re using guilt to try to make you come visit them or to see them again, here’s the question to ask yourself, if you were not related to these people, would you all have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly. So, the death Hoover is what I like to call it, or the the I’m dying Hoover, I’m sick Hoover. All of those are Hoover’s So beware of that. Ask yourself the question if I were not related to them, would I have anything to do with an if the answer is no act accordingly. Okay, kids, you guys have a great week. Really good questions. Thank you. You guys. Have a great week. Drink plenty of water. Take good care of yourselves. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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The post 05-08-2022 Games They Play appeared first on Kris Godinez.

TRANSCRIPT

Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  01:00

Okay, there we go. All right, let’s dive into today’s topic, which happens to be energy vampires or otherwise known as psychic vampires. So, I know that sounds kind of woo woo and everything, but let’s just be clear Energy Vampires are narcissists. Usually, they are a Cluster B of some sort, either histrionic, borderline, or narcissist, or antisocial. So, they’re one of those. So, energy vampires are the ones where I don’t know if you guys have ever seen “What We Do In The Shadows”. If you have not watched the TV show, What We Do In The Shadows, you really should be watching the TV show What We Do In The Shadows. So it’s four vampires. Yeah, four vampires that live together in Staten Island. And it’s all about their nightly escapades and things like that. And one of the vampires is a psychic vampire or an energy vampire. And his name is Colin Robinson as Nadja calls him and Nadja’s one of the other vampires so she always calls him by his full name Colin Robinson. So anyway, he will walk into a room and literally he’ll just say one word, or he can just walk into the room and people keel over. Sound asleep.

So, an energy vampire Happy New Year guys,

Kris Godinez  02:15

an energy vampire is is a narcissist. Usually not always, they can be borderline, they can be antisocial, they can be you know, anybody on the Cluster B spectrum. So, what an energy vampire does is they walk into a room and they monopolize the conversation they either monopolize it with Okay, let’s let’s look at the different narcissistic stuff. And then I’ll go through the different cluster B’s. So, let’s let’s look at narcissism. So, they’re either going to be the overt narcissist, which is going to be like, life of the party, but has to be the center of attention. So, in other words, there can be people that are life of the party that are willing to give up the spotlight to allow someone else to shine. You know, so like, you know, a jam session, it’s like you’re done with your jam and passing it off to you, you know, that kind of thing. That’s cool. That’s fine. That’s there’s no problem with that. But a psychic vampire that is the life of the party that has to constantly steal the spotlight back. So, like they never allow anyone else to be the life of the party. They never allow anyone else to be happy or you know, getting attention or anything like that. So, they’re always stealing the spotlight back so that’s the overt version of a Energy Vampire. So, it’s like they never allow the attention to drift off of them whenever they’re in a social situation or a party or anything like that. The overt No, that was overt. Sorry. Did I did I say covert? I met overt. Those are the overt ones. Those are the ones that are life the party can’t handle having somebody else have the attention.

Covert ones are the ones who play the victim Poor me. I’m all alone. Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. I’m gonna go to the garden and eat big slimy hairy worms. Listen to my sob story. Oh, I just had this operation. Let me tell you all about it. Oh, my bowels. I’m not even kidding you. They do that. So, they’ll start talking about their bowels for some bizarre reason, you know, they’ll, they’ll start going through all the medical stuff. They’ll start, you know, oh, I had this ache and this pain and this surgery and, and this problem with my bowels and they literally will do that in a social situation, which the rest of the people are like, wait, what? You know, and, and because we are also groomed to not interrupt them or stop them or tell them it’s inappropriate. They keep going because it’s the, it’s the codependency. So, think of it this way. If they’re covert, they’re doing the victim thing. Okay. If their overt Life of the Party have to be the center of attention steals the attention back every time somebody else gets the mic, that kind of thing.

Okay, and then you’ve got the communal narcissist who will sit there and expound on their wokeness don’t even get me started, that just oh my god, they will the, so they’re the gurus, they’re, they’re the ones that will expound on their wokeness and talk about their, you know, whatever little cult that they have going and how awakened and aware they are and how you should join their cult, and all of that sort of fun stuff. So that is kind of what the different types of narcissists do.

Hermit, hermit kind of does the same thing. So, let’s, let’s look at borderline now. Okay, so borderlines down at the lower end of the spectrum, generally don’t do that. They’re usually more turned inwards and they’re more harmful to themselves when they start moving down the spectrum, okay, and they start getting to hermit, Queen and witch.

Okay, so there’s waif which is the quiet one that generally they turn on themselves, those you can work with, but when they start moving down the line get to the hermit, The Queen and The Witch.

Okay, so the hermit is akin to the covert, borderline or covert narcissist.

Kris Godinez  06:21

Not enough coffee in the world this morning. Um, so the hermit is akin to the covert narcissist. Okay, these two the hermit and the covert narcissist, love to play the victim, and love to talk about everything that’s going wrong in their life. This is wrong, that is wrong, everything’s wrong, you know, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and how horrible it all is. And they want you to collude with them. And honest to God, you listened to that for about less than five minutes, I would say a minute. And pretty soon you’re like, Oh my God, how do I how do I get away from them? Where’s the exit? Holy crap, how do I get out of here? You know, and we don’t want to say no to them. So, this is all going to be about boundaries. So okay, so the hermit and the covert are very similar.

Okay, then you move up to the Queen and the witch. So, the queen is the control freak. narcissists do this too. Usually overt ones, the obvious ones, the ones that are like, look at me, look at me, look at me. I’m so fabulous. Tell me how fabulous I am. And if you don’t tell me how fabulous you are, I’m going to turn on you, you know, or if somebody else takes the spotlight, I’m going to grab it back and you know, that kind of thing. So, the queen is a control freak, control, control, control, must control everyone in the room. So that is kind of similar to the overt narcissist, if that makes any sort of sense. Then you get the witch who is just a sadistic POS and just wants to hurt people. And so, they’ll be the ones that do the real snarky, you know, gossipy nasty, kind of like hit and run. screw you’s. You know what I’m saying? So, I’m sure you have. Have you ever been in a room with somebody and somebody said something just really egregious, but it was so sneaky that you didn’t quite catch it until about five or 10 minutes later, and then you’re like, wait a minute, why do I feel like crap? What just happened? And then you realize what they said?

So, this is these are all on the Cluster B. So, energy vampires are usually narcissist not always they can be borderline. But it’s usually narcissist. Can they be psychopaths? Can they be antisocial? Sociopaths? Yes, they can. And with the psychopaths and the antisocial there’s usually a reason that they’re doing it. It’s not just… how do I explain? The psychopaths and sociopaths say and do things to see how far they can push the envelope, the social envelope that’s really what they do. That’s, that’s you know, the rules don’t apply to me. I can say and do whatever I want get away with it. You know, I’m above the law I’m you know, whatever. And so those are the ones that will say and do horrible things to see if they can push their audience to agree with them on whatever horrible thing they’re saying.

So, so yeah, so anyway, um, so the psychic vampire or the emotional vampire are the ones that can walk into a room and they can be coworkers. Oh my god, we got to talk about all of these. They can be coworkers so I’m sure everybody has experienced this. You’re trying to get stuff done and sad Sally or sad sack walks over to your desk. Oh, let me tell you about my horrible weekend it sounds like Eyore but it’s, it’s worse than Eyore.I loved Eyore I just I loved Eyore, who was such a great little story anyway, but the point being is they’re like poor me and I need you to listen to me! So, they monopolize monopolize, monopolize, monopolize, monopolize. They are found at parties. They are found in the work force. They can be coworkers, they can be bosses. They can be, they can be anywhere.

So, okay, I just wanted to read a couple of articles that I found on psychology today. Wow, I need to clean these glasses. What the heck? Oh, it’s been a while. Oh, well, I’ll do it later. Okay, so five kinds of Emotional Vampires. This is by Judith Orloff medical doctor. As a surgeon, she’s found that there’s different kinds of energy vampires, signs that you have encountered and emotional vampire, your eyelids are heavy and you feel ready for a nap. I cannot tell you the number of times in social situations where somebody just starts talking and you’re like,

Kris Godinez  10:41

you know, because it’s just like they’re just monotonous and all sad sack and everything else. Your mood takes a nosedive. I think I’m gonna leave my glasses off. Um, you feel anxious, depressed or negative, you feel put down, you feel yucky after you’ve left them. So, it’s really important to notice or monitor how you are feeling. When you leave somebodies presence, you know, because a healthy person will leave you feeling uplifted and happy, basically. And if you’re with somebody who’s a narcissist, or a borderline or antisocial or whatever, you’re gonna be like, Oh my god, I just I’m so tired. I’m so tired. Why am I so tired? I feel gross. Feel like I’ve been slimed ew! What just happened, that kind of thing.

Alright, so types of Emotional Vampires, the narcissist talked about that. Alright, how to protect yourself, keep your expectations, expectations realistic. These are emotionally limited people try not to fall in love with one or expect them to be selfless, or to love without strings attached. Never make your yourself worth it dependent upon them, or to confide your deepest feelings to them. So oftentimes, Emotional Vampires will get you to you know, I’ll confide this if you but you got to tell me something, it’s this tit for tat kind of thing. And what they’re doing is they’re fishing, they’re looking for something that they can use against you at a later date. So, you always, always want to be really careful what you share in a social situation, especially if it’s with somebody new, or somebody that you don’t know that well, or somebody who has, in fact, shown you who they really are, in which case, you don’t share, you just don’t share, you make an excuse and you get out of there.

Kris Godinez  12:29

Okay, to successfully communicate the hard truth is that you must show how something will be to their benefit. So it’s manipulation. And you don’t I don’t recommend that I don’t recommend playing the narcissists game, the only time I would say you could kind of play that, you know, finding a way to get them out of the spotlight or finding them away to shut up or finding them away to whatever is if they are not in a position of power over you. If you’re dealing with a boss or whatever, you know, you can’t because they’re control freaks to remember, the further down the spectrum they get, the more overlapping all of the types of narcissism become and the more overlapping all of the different types of Cluster B become.

So the other type of vampires, the victim, victims, grate on you with the poor me attitude, the world is against them. It’s their reason. It’s the reason for their unhappiness. When you offer a solution. Their common response is yes, but so I call them Yes, butters. So yes, butters are there’s a problem. Here’s the solution. Oh, no, I can’t do that. Oh, well, yes. But you know, that type, and that tells me right there, boom, they don’t want this problem fixed. They are enjoying being miserable. So, I’m just gonna leave them to their miserableness. There we go. Eventually, you might end up screening your calls, or purposely avoiding them as a friend, you may want to help. But they’re tales of woe will overwhelm you. Yes, they will.

So, here’s the thing. Basically, in all of these articles that I’m going to be reading to you. It’s all about setting boundaries, it really truly is all about setting boundaries. And when somebody shows you who they are now, this is different. Venting is different from dumping. Let’s be very clear. Venting is where you ask permission, you tell your friend or your family member or whatever, I just need to vent this thing happened. Let’s talk about a solution when I’m done, but I just need to vent and then you go and you vent it and then at the end, okay, what do you think how do I handle this? What would you do in this situation? And then you talk about a solution. And then you figure out which is going to be the best solution and you move forward with it. That’s normal communication. With a dumper there. Yes, butters. Yes, but Oh, no, that won’t work. Oh, yes. But oh, I can’t do that. Oh, I can’t Yeah, stop talking to my abusive Dad, I can’t stop talking to my abusive partner. I can’t, you know, all of these excuses why they can’t. Now, okay, granted, if you’ve got kids, you obviously can’t stop talking to your abusive spouse because you got to talk about the kids. But if somebody is like staying in an abusive relationship, staying intentionally staying in an abusive relationship, they know it’s an abusive relationship. They don’t want to get out. They really don’t. They don’t really want help. But yet they keep coming back to you with the same problem every single day, every single day. This happened, this happened, this happened and you keep going. Do this. Think about that. Try this. And they’re always yes, but yes, but no, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.

Is there a difference between codependent and borderline? Yes, we’ll talk about that in the questions. John, if you could flag that, that would be cool. And here’s the thing. Here’s the interesting thing. The Emotional Vampires are very codependent. On having victims, they have to have victims, they have to have an audience. narcissists have to have a victim in order to get the narcissistic supply. So, boring someone to death or making them angry, because they’re bored to death, or just even having an ear. for the narcissist is supplied to them. A lot of them, swear to God and all its holy, they do this because they love, love to hear their own voice they,

Kris Godinez  16:29

they truly do. And those are the ones where you’re just kind of like y’all could have done this in an email, you know, it’s like, but they, they do this because they like to hear themselves talk. So, for an example, when I was working at the homeless shelter, we had this person that worked there that insisted, that insisted, we go to mandatory meetings every week. And the meetings were the same thing every week, week after week, and it cut into my time to be able to do notes, it cut into my time to be able to take care of my clients, the whole thing. And I finally just started doing my notes in the middle of the meeting. Well, this person had a fit, you can’t be doing your notes. Why not? I can hear you talk while I’m typing. And I’ve got 50 notes from this group that I just had right before your meeting. So, guess what? I’m going to be doing the notes. So, it and basically what it boiled down to is this person was so narcissistic, they had to have an audience for their “tell me how great I am” speech week after week after week after week after week after week. So yes, they are in positions of power, sadly, some of them. Some of them are coworkers. And usually with the coworkers though it’s it can be a competition thing. So sometimes well, we’ll get to that. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll try to put you down for some good accomplishment that you had, and then tell you how great they are. So that’s, that’s another energy vampire. So, let’s get back to this before I move on here. How are we doing on time? We’re doing great.

All right, how to protect yourself from the victim set firm limits. And here’s the thing in this article, it said firm but kind, I say Chuck kindness out the window. Just firm limits. Why? Because we have been groomed by our family of origin or by our abusers whoever got their hooks into us to be codependent. And we see the word no, as harsh and mean. And no is a really hard word for us. So, when I’m working with parents, teaching them how to teach their children boundaries. I say no is a wall. Teach them the no wall. The no wall keeps them safe. So, no is an okay word. It’s a boundary word. It’s a safe word. And so, when you’re dealing with one of these energy vampires, and especially if it’s coworker who’s like talking your ear off, you cannot be kind because kind to us means don’t say no, that’s See that’s why I had a problem with that word in that article. Because what it should have said gentle but firm. So, you can be gentle, but you must be firm. So, you don’t have to be like, No, you know, you can be like, I am really busy. I have got work to get done. I’ve got a deadline. I’m sorry, I cannot listen to you right now. You don’t even need to say I’m sorry. I cannot listen to you right now. No, and then you walk off. Now that’s gonna feel harsh and mean and cruel. That person if they are manipulative are going to crumble into 1000 tears. You don’t love me? Why aren’t you listening to me? Bla bla bla bla bla. And that to you should be your huge red flag because to a healthy normal person when we hear the word no, we go Oh, okay. Well, no wall. Okay, sorry. See you later you know, and off we go. Now narcissists stick around to get supply. So, if you’re feeling guilty if you’re feeling fearful, obligated or guilty, they will stick around and they will be but why? But why? But why? But why? and this is where you say no is a complete sentence. I do not need to explain it to You we are done by and then you leave.

So, the thing of it is, is that narcissist needs supply these types of narcissists, these types of energy vampires, these types of people using the term loosely, these type of people need supply. So, if you’re not giving it to them, if you’re like, Nope, sorry, I’m busy, come back later, you know, or whatever, they will go off and find somebody that is going to listen to their sad story because they need the supply. So, no is your friend Learn to say no, and be okay with it. So, what I teach the little kids when I used to do the new song Center and the Duggie Center, which are grief clinics, I used to teach the kids No, and I mean it. You put your hand out? No, and I mean, it. No is a complete sentence, I don’t need to explain it. And that’s what you need to start saying to these types, because they will they remember, they’re on the level of like, maybe a two year old on a good day if the wind is blowing from East. So, you know, you just got to be a broken record. No, and I mean it and then you walk off, you don’t stay there for the argument to continue. Because that’s what they’re looking for.

So, okay, um,

Kris Godinez  21:12

okay, further limits, listen briefly to the friend relative of coworker, but then say, I can’t stay to listen, I only have a few minutes unless you want to discuss solutions. Okay, so this is for the victim. One, this is the one that’s always victim, victim, victim, with a coworker sympathize by saying I’ll keep having good thoughts that things work out. I hope you understand. But I’m on a deadline, and I must return to work. I think that’s too nice. I would say, Gosh, I hope things work out for you. I’m on a deadline, I got to go back to work bye and then I would leave that’s exactly what I would do. Body language, Telegraph’s this isn’t a good time, such as crossing your arms or breaking eye contact. And those can help to enforce healthy limits. Well, those can help to enforce healthy limits when you’re dealing with somebody that’s healthy. Let’s just be clear about that. Because I have dealt with some really interesting people. Yeah, cross my arms, you know, gave them the look, they don’t get a clue. They don’t care that even that is narcissistic supply to them Do not stay in their presence. Either they leave or you leave one of the two. And if they don’t leave you leave, because you don’t want to sit there and continue to give them narcissistic supply. Okay, so Okay, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,

The controller these people No, this would be the queen, or the covert or overt narcissist. Um, these people obsessively try to control you and dictate how you’re supposed to be and feel. They have an opinion about literally everything, they’ll control you by invalidating your emotions when they don’t fit into their own rulebook. That makes me so angry when people do that. So, here’s the deal. Nobody gets to tell you how you feel. Nobody gets to do that. You have a right to your own emotion. So, if somebody goes this is the one that Oh, God, my dad used to do this. Don’t you be angry at me, you don’t have a right to be angry. And here he was abusing me and I had an absolute righteous anger. You know, so don’t you be angry? I’ll give you something to be angry about. Or don’t you cry? I’ll give you something to cry about. So, when somebody tells you that you don’t have the right to feel whatever it is, you’re genuinely feeling, that is your cue to run! Do not walk to the nearest exit you are dealing with an abuser, because nobody has the right to tell you how you feel you are feeling whatever it is you’re feeling. Emotions are not bad, but I’ll tell you what, narcissists and abusers whether they’re borderline or whether they’re narcissists, they can’t stand emotions. They can’t stand genuine emotions, genuine emotions, any genuine emotion, anger, sadness, hurt, happy, glad, scared, whatever, they cannot stand genuine emotions because they can’t feel them and enrages them, that you feel something that they will never feel. You know what I’m saying? So yeah, they don’t get the right to tell you what you are feeling if somebody tries to tell you what you’re feeling.

So this is why self-esteem is so hugely important Hang on. This is why self-esteem is so hugely important. You need to know who you are rock solid sun comes up in the east, sets in the west. You need to know who you are so that when some abuser tries to tell you who you are or what you are feeling you’re able to check in and go ah go pound sand mother Clucker! I don’t think so. This is what I’m feeling you don’t get to tell me what I’m feeling. Here’s the line, don’t freakin’ cross it. That’s how we stay safe, boundaries. So yeah, this is what you want to do. So, you want to know who you are. So, the self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi the Disease to Please Harriet breaker boundaries. codependent no more, beyond codependent no more both by Melanie Beatty, any book on, on being assertive? Yes, do it inner child workbook, who groomed you? Who groomed you to have to always say yes. Who groomed you that no is not okay. These are all important things to do. These are, this is all the work you got to do to make sure that you are safe. Does that make sense? So okay, let’s get back to this.

Ah, all right. Um, the controller okay? It’s okay. They often start sentences with you know what you need, you know or let me tell you how you should feel about this so shoulda, coulda, woulda, and then they’ll proceed to tell you and you end up feeling dominated, demeaned or put down. So, this is why no is important and don’t allow anyone to tell you what you are feeling. Um,

Kris Godinez  25:37

never try to control a controller because they’re master manipulators. Be healthfully assertive, don’t tell them what to do. You can say I valued your advice, but I really need to work through this myself. That’s a good way to handle it. Be confident and do not play the victim.

Okay, the constant talker. Those are the ones you get at work. These people aren’t interested in your feelings. They don’t want a solution. They are only concerned with themselves. You may wait for an opening to get a word in edgewise. But it will never come. Or they might physically move in close so that they’re practically breathing on you. You edge backwards, but they step closer. Oh, God, I hate that. So yeah, that’s a form of domination. So, moving in closer, because we all have this nice little bubble. It’s about three feet that feels comfortable with a stranger or with somebody you’re moderately to closer if you’re intimate with the person, but these people move in. And they’re like intimidating. And so, remember narcissists and abusers if they can’t outright control you will try to use intimidation, that is a form of intimidation, that is physically intimidating. So basically, with people like that, I tell them please back up. I’m not comfortable, please back up. That’s too close. Thank you and especially Love in the Time of COVID Now that we’re in the middle of another frickin wave of COVID Don’t get me started because Yeah, John and I are actually in quarantine this week because somebody at our Pilates class tested positive and refused to wear masks don’t get me started. So, you know, especially in this time and time and age, you want to make sure that people are away from you. But even before that in the time before COVID If somebody gets too close, it’s really creepy. It’s it’s, it’s an intimidation thing. And it’s, it’s especially disturbing to those of us who have been sexually or physically abused, because that’s what our abuser would do. They would march right into our space and do whatever they wanted to and that will set off dissociation like nobody’s business that will set up PTSD that will set up Oh, yeah.  Triggers. So yeah, so you have the right you have the right to literally push them away, get out of my space. This is not okay, get out of my space, I can hear you fine from over there. You know, and they do that on purpose because they’re looking to, they’re looking for that entrance, they’re looking for that weak point. And, and they’re predators. They are like sharks, they can smell blood in the water. So, if they notice that you’re getting you’re checking out because they’re getting too close or you’re getting angry or whatever, that they know they’ve gotcha but then you need to assert your own right to have your own space and backup. This is too close. Thank you! These people honestly, I just don’t even get me started. All right. Um, okay, so how are we doing a time? We’re gonna go over again sorry.

Okay, the drama queen. These types of people have a flair for small incidents to become major dramas. So, mountain into K2 or you know a molehill into K2. Um, they’re always you know, having drama, drama, drama, drama. Things are overblown. Things are way out, you know, exaggerated. How to protect yourself. The drama queen can’t draw in energy from equanimity. Stay calm. Take a few deep breaths. This will help you not get caught up in the histrionics. So, drama queens, drama kings, they want you to get as wrapped up in the drama with them as they are. And that’s where they get their narcissistic supply from. This is why, you know, they tell these outrageous stories and they blow things up out of proportion. And they want you to be just as angry or upset as they are, don’t! It’s not your problem. And the problem of it is, is that as people who love and care and are kind and are empathic, we have a tendency to believe the best of everybody, which unfortunately we can’t, that’s dangerous for us. And we also have a tendency to match people with their energy. So, you don’t want to do that. You don’t want to match their energy. You don’t want to mirror them you want to take a deep breath and, uh huh, uh huh. Okay, I hear this is really upsetting to you. Okay, what do you need? And they hate that because then that forces them to say a solution. And usually, I don’t know do anything about my remember, they want to just keep going. Well, really sorry, this is happening to you, but I’ve got to go bye and you leave. Okay,

Kris Godinez  30:20

so there is that. So there was that article on Psychology Today, it was called five kinds of Emotional Vampires you could encounter by Judith Orloff medical doctor.

Next one is slaying energy vampires. Now this one I thought was interesting. I do want to hit this one. Before I go into the questions. This person is in a corporation, and they realized that in the corporation, it is called slaying the energy vampires by Aaron Hearst. So, they realized that in their corporation, there were individuals that were dragging the corporation and other people down. So, what they did is they asked people to talk about their interactions with other coworkers, and how they felt after their interactions with a coworker. So, there are going to certain people in the organization who may be great performers, but no one wants to work with them, you dread meeting with them, they can suck the life out of a team. So, what they did, they decided to have a frank regular conversation to identify if any of them were working in the corporation. So, what they did is the they asked a question, we realized 10% of our organized organization were energy sucking vampires. There was no real discussion about it. When someone named a potential vampire, everybody vehemently agreed it wasn’t subtle. It was hard to transfer and transition them out. Given that several of them were strong, individual contributors, but within a few months, they were all gone. The funny thing that happened is the next few management meetings, we couldn’t name a single energy vampire left in the organization, and everyone reported morale and results. Employee engagement and retention increased by over 25%. We saw collaboration and innovation increase political nonsense went way down. After a year or two, we realized that the only the one time purge had done more than identify the energy suckers. It trained us the organization to screen for these vampires in interviews, and we stopped hiring them. And that is what needs to happen in corporations. Now there’s, there’s been this huge myth that narcissists are these wonderful CEOs and these wonderful, no, they’re not. They’re good at intimidation, they’re good at lying. They’re good at cheating. They’re good at blaming, but they’re not good at being a team worker. So, I applaud this corporation for having the cohones, to realize that energy suckers not team players not willing to you know work with other people not willing to whatever, and they got rid of them and look, they’re doing so much better, so much healthier, so much happier so much retention. And that’s what needs to happen in corporations in businesses everywhere. We need to stop allowing them to keep hiring or to just promote up problem children that’s what happens it’s like they get promoted up so that they’re away oh, I don’t want them they’re hot potato here you take them you know that kind of thing. What it should be is Ooh, hot potato not appropriate for our business. You’re not a good fit, but bye bye now Bye Bye but people are afraid to do that because of the codependency Okay, so there was that.

Last article is how to deal with people who drain you so they’re intrusive show poor boundaries overly dramatic, make mountains out of molehills overly critical finding fault with just about everyone and everything. So, their external critic is on steroids which means their internal critic is probably on steroids too chronic complainers rarely find anything to their liking or their satisfaction. It could be a beautiful day. Oh my god. It could be a beautiful day. Sun is shining. Birds are singing. It’s gorgeous. You mentioned how beautiful it is and what do they start talking about? Their bowel movements. I’m not kidding you they do that. So yeah, they will find chronic complaining. They cannot see feel the flowers in front of them. They really cannot. Argumentative, have trouble agreeing with others even on things that seem insignificant or inconsequential. So narcissists especially need to be right about everything and they will start arguments over which way the toilet paper faces I’m not kidding you it doesn’t freakin’ matter. Does the same business no matter which way you put it doesn’t matter. There’s bigger issues in this world. Trust me on that one. So yeah, they will they will do that. Relentlessly demanding and persistent being unable to take no for an answer. So, these are the ones that when you say now are going to go but why? But why? But why? But why? And you that’s when you have to be like this Stop, and I mean it. No means no. No is a complete sentence we’re done. And then you leave. And you don’t stick around. Okay?

Kris Godinez  35:10

Wait, where’d I go? Okay, constantly negative did that glass is half empty, unable to accept responsibility blaming everyone but themselves for their own actions and problems. So basically, what they’re saying is know one when you see one, you know, if you’ve dealt with them before, they’re not going to change. They don’t change, they don’t change. Um, pay close attention to your gut instincts and physical reactions. If you find yourself experiencing muscle tension, loss of energy, headache, irritability, sadness, confusion, or negativity, you are dealing with an energy vampire, get them out of your life, or at least you get away from them. Limit your contact, which is what I’ve always said don’t get pulled in. And that’s the biggest thing. Don’t get pulled into it. So okay, so those were all of the articles that I found on psychology today.

So basically, to, to recap, go watch “What We Do In the Shadows”. It’s so awesome. And Mark can’t remember his last name. Povich, proche prosper approach something. Anyway, he’s the one who plays Colin Robinson. And he does it to the nth degree. It is just I love that show. I really do. And Laszlo who would have thought! Who would have thought that Laszlo could be a hero, seriously. So anyway, um, go watch the show. It’s really good. There’s, there’s a whole, there’s one that features Mark doing Collin Robinson, and he’s going up against a troll on the internet. And of course, it turns out to be a real troll. So, he does battle with him, and it’s just hysterically funny. So, I strongly recommend you go watch that.

So basically, to recap, all energy vampires are cluster B’s, they are either borderline further down on the spectrum, or they are narcissistic, they’ve got different ways of doing it, depending on if they’re over covert or communal, if they’re hermit, witch, or queen, queen, or witch. And it’s all the same thing. So basically, what it is they need that supply, they need that energy, they need you to fall asleep, they need you to feel miserable. They need to hear their own voice, I swear to God, it’s just like, oh, my god, shut the hell up Jesus Christ. You know what I’m saying? So, if you are cornered by one of these people, and this happened to me back in my 20s, I remember getting cornered by this, we were at a business meeting, you know, John was at a convention or whatever. And I went with him to San Francisco. And there were three women. Two were French Canadians, and one was German. And the German one was an energy vampire. And she literally peeled me away from the French Canadians and talked my ear off the entire weekend, I wanted to go hang out with the French Canadians because they were having more fun. So, but because at that point in time, I wasn’t able to say no and mean it because I didn’t want to hurt her feelings. You know what, if that happened today, I’d be like, peace out. I’m going with the French Canadians by you know? Because now I have the ability to know who I am what I want. And not that I don’t care. But I could tell this would not have been a huge hit to the ego for this person. It’s like, I’m sure it’s happened before. So, do you see where I’m going with that? So, it’s like, if somebody is talking your ear off at a party. I what I do is John, hi. Oh, hey, gotta go. You know, I gotta go. And I’ll just leave, you know what I’m saying? Or, you know, oh, look there, Sandy. Oh, gotta go, you know, and I’ll run over to the other side of the room and grab them and be like, keep them the hell away from me. You know, so, yeah, and sometimes they’ll try to follow but then you just keep going, you know, you just go keep people up and around and don’t let them corner you. If they corner you, you come up with an excuse, Oh, I gotta go to the bathroom. Oh, you know, gotta go help so and so or I gotta, you know, whatever. If it’s a coworker, I’m sorry. I’ve got a deadline. Not even I’m sorry. I’ve got a deadline. I don’t have time right now. And then you leave, you just leave. You don’t allow them to give you or if they’re at your cubicle. I’ve got a deadline, come back later. And then you just don’t and you just put in here buds and you keep going, you know. So yeah, there’s ways around it. So, they’re just these people.

Alright, let’s get to the questions. All right. So, um, do people who grieve cheat on their partners? I know someone I know used his parents loss as an excuse. While he was cheating on her with me. Oh my god. Cheaters are always, always, always narcissists. Always. Always grieving the loss of your parents, so you can get down and funky with somebody else. That doesn’t sound like grief to me. So, you know, here’s the deal. Cheaters are always narcissists, always. They

Kris Godinez  39:51

need a harem. They need a Drama Triangle. So, they’re, they’re using the Oh I’m grieving so I just need to comort from you, sweet thing, we thing as opposed to my spouse, you know, so they need a Drama Triangle. And so, they will use, they will use the wind blowing out of the West as an excuse seriously! Well, it’s not my fault the wind was blowing out of the west, you know? No. It’s if somebody is using the death of their parents as an excuse to cheat, run, do not walk to the nearest exit seriously. So, it won’t get better. They won’t leave you for you know, leave, leave them their spouse for you. This is this is a common thing is this. Maybe I should do a thing on that. Maybe I should do a thing on that. Maybe not next week, but the week after so in two weeks, I want to be doing something on lies cheaters tell. I think that would be a good one. So, lies cheaters tell I think would be a good one. Because one of the things they always say is Oh, I’m gonna divorce them. I’m gonna leave them. It’s gonna happen 20 years later, no, no, I’m gonna leave them it’s gonna happen. And never does. They need a harem. They need a harem. And trust me you’re not the only one. I know. I’m sorry. So um, ya know, if they’re using the death of their parents as an excuse, no, they’re, they’re narcissistic.

Can a covert narcissist also be overt at times? Yes. My narc. Mom was very much attention seeking all the time and playing the victim and talked always about inappropriate things at the wrong time. Yeah, so remember, narcissists can weave their way through the different types of narcissism depending on what is needed to get their narcissistic supply. So yeah, they’ll if playing the victim works, they’ll play the victim if being overt and look at me, I’m fabulous. Tell me how great I am on the best thing ever. Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, then yeah, they’ll do that, you know, or if they need to sound like the guru, they’ll become the communal narcissist. They’ll suddenly be like, this holy pious person or they’ll be incredibly woke or whatever the BS is that they’re doing so yeah, they will weave their way back and forth through whatever works, whatever gets them their narcissistic supply. It’s like coke for them. It is like coke for them. So yeah, absolutely.

Um, is there a difference between a codependent and a borderline? Yes. So okay. codependency is where you need approval, okay, in order to be okay. I’m not okay. Unless they’re okay. That’s really that’s codependency. So, it looks either like this two codependence leaning on each other, which if one of them leaves no bueno. Or it’s like this A codependent propping up, usually a narcissist, or a borderline or whatever. And if they go away, kathunk. Okay. Borderline Personality Disorder is a fear of being abandoned. It is based in trauma. So, hold on, let me pull up the criteria for that. So, you understand. Let’s look up Mayo Clinic, Mayo Clinic, borderline, borderline, there we go. Alright, so Alright, intense fear of abandonment, even going to extreme measures to avoid real or imagined separation or rejection. It is intensely terrifying to them to be abandoned or to even think about being abandoned. And unfortunately, with borderline personality disorder, it has traits of all 10 Major personality disorders, and it borders on psychotic thinking when they really get going into that hole. I’m going to be abandoned. Oh my god, you meant this when you said that. It’s really, It’s psychotic thinking. So okay, hold on. codependents don’t have that. A pattern of unstable intense relationships, such as idealizing someone one moment and then suddenly believing the person doesn’t care enough or is cruel. So, they create the roller coaster in their own head and it’s horrible. And so it’s like, oh, they’re wonderful and they’re perfect to their face said this and they meant that so with somebody who’s got borderline personality disorder that is not being treated Hold on.

Kris Godinez  44:38

You could say good morning to them and they will read something completely different into that. Well, what did you mean by that? You meant fill in the blank and it’s usually not good. So that’s not codependency. Okay, hold on. Let’s go back. rapid changes and self identity and self image that includes shifting goals and values and seeing yourself as bad whereas if you don’t exist at all periods of stress related paranoia and loss of contact with reality lasting from a few minutes to a few hours, impulsivity and risky behaviors, gambling, reckless driving unsafe sex spending sprees, binge eating drug abuse, sabotaging success by suddenly quitting a good job or ending a positive relationship simply because you’re afraid of being abandoned, and that’s what happens they do, it’s a pre emptive abandonment is what it is. So, when they feel like they’re going to be abandoned, they will intentionally shove the person away. So that it’s, they’re the ones that did it, they’re not having it done to them. And that’s what’s so damaging. And that’s what’s so sad about it is because they really just want to be loved. So okay, so there is that, um, suicidal threats or behaviors self-injury, often in response to fear of separation or rejection. Wild mood swings, lasting from a few hours to a few days, which could include intense happiness, irritability, shame, or anxiety, ongoing feelings of emptiness, inappropriate intense anger, such as frequently losing your temper being sarcastic or bitter, or having physical fights. So that’s if it’s not being dealt with. So, with codependency, codependency is more, I need them to like me, in order to be okay, I need them to be okay, in order to be okay, I need their approval I need so it’s other approval, other esteem. It’s not to the point where you’re suicidal, if you don’t get it, it’s not to the point where you’re intensely afraid of you’re afraid of it, but you’re not intensely afraid of it. So codependency very different than borderline some similarities, but not a lot. So, I hope that answered the question. If it didn’t just let me know. And I’ll try to give you a better answer. If that didn’t cover it. Um, how are we doing on time? Okay, we’re doing good.

All right, um, some people suck the life out of you. And don’t respect boundaries. But they’re unique, interesting, and sometimes helpful. Is there anything we can do to improve the friendship? Well, here’s the deal. If it is just a behavioral thing, and it’s not narcissism, and it’s not a Cluster B, you can make them aware of it, you know, you have these great qualities. And here’s something that I see happening that might harm you in the future, you know, or with other people or whatever. If they’re a healthy, normal adult, they’ll take it into consideration and start working on it. Or they’ll say, thank you very much. That’s not really me. You know, do you see where I’m going with that? If they’re narcissistic, however, or if they are on the cluster B’s at all, they will either break into a million tears, and you’re the bad guy, or they’ll become enraged? How dare you criticize me blah, blah, blah, blah, that kind of thing. So, you know, you could confront them about it. But caution, you know, just use caution and just be prepared. If they’re healthy and normal. They’ll be like, Oh, I didn’t know I was doing that. Okay, well, let me fix that. Or if they’re not healthy and normal, they’ll break into a million tears, and you’re the bad guy, or they’ll rage and if they to either one of those, run, do not walk to the nearest exit? Absolutely.

Okay. Um, could you give some phrases of how to stop these people rambling on about their problems? Okay. Let me take this a two part question. So, um, so if they’ve come to you before with the same problem, what I will do, and I do this with my clients, when they try to do the whole, let’s talk about the same thing over and over and over again, I will say, okay, stop right there. We’ve already talked about this, we’ve already come up with a solution, you’ve already told me you’re not interested. So either, we talked about something else or you tell me how you’re going to take steps to fix this? I guarantee you, they’re not going to like it. Because you know, if they’re really invested in staying stuck and being victims, they don’t want to come up with their own solutions. And they just want to sit there and bend your ear and hear their own voice. So yeah, you know, it’s just stop. We’ve already talked about this. You didn’t like my solution? What are you going to come up with?

Kris Godinez  49:21

And that may send them off on a different route. Or we’ve already talked about this. You didn’t like my solution? So I’m not I’m not listening to this again. That’s a boundary. That’s a boundary. Does it sound harsh? Yeah. Is it harsh? Really? No, it’s not. Because here’s the thing, if you do not draw this boundary for them, they will just continue you to waste your time to listen to themselves talk and to make sure that you’re just as miserable as they are. So no, you get to say no, you get to say no. Okay, let me go back to the second part of that question. Um, okay, and how do you stop people from ramble On the phone, as well without just hanging up, okay. So, when I have dealt with people that try to keep you on the phone, and this happens a lot, family members, potential clients, you know, the whole thing. I just let them know, I’m sorry, I don’t have time to continue talking. We’ll continue this some other time. Gotta go by click or click pushing buttons, it says to click, you know, say the old days, you would click but now you push. So anyway, the point being is, is that you basically, you just let them know, it’s kind of like a two minute warning. But it’s like a 32nd warning. It’s like, I’m sorry, I don’t have time. I’ve got another client coming in, or I’m sorry, I don’t have time. I’ve got to go. But we’ll continue this some other time. Or, or, you know, I’m sorry, I’ve got to go. I’ll talk to you later. And they will continue talking. Trust me. So you’re just going to have to go, I’m sorry, I’ve got to go. I’ll talk to you later. Bye. Click or push or beep you know what I mean? So, you don’t worry about them continuing talking. They’re going to they’re going to because this is their game. This is their manipulation. This is their way to control you. This is your their way to stay on the phone so that you keep listening to them. So yeah, in some cases, it’s with some family members, I have just clicked, pushed, beeped, mid sentence after I told them I had to go, you know, somebody at the door, gotta go bye click, you know, I’m always gonna say click, that’s never gonna change. It’s just it’s always going to be a click. So, yeah, I got somebody at the door, gotta go by click. That’s what you do. Or, you know, somebody is, um, you know, okay, I love it when salesmen come to my door. And I will tell them, I’m sorry, I’m not interested. And they will try to keep talking and I will shut the door in their face. I’ve already said I’m sorry, I’m not interested, get the hell off my property. You know, seriously, it’s you don’t have to sit there and listen to them. And some of them. Oh, my God. So they’ve started with the emails. I’m sure this has been going on forever. But I just recently got one not too long ago, where they wanted me to join some thing for life coaches, and I was like, I’m not a life coach. I’m an LPC. I’m quite happy with what I’m doing right now. Thank you very much for the offer. But the answer’s no. Because I figured, okay, this would be you know, proper to say no, thank you, blah, blah, blah. And I was thinking, okay, that’s the end of it. The person emailed me back and demanded to know why I said no, and I went red flag flag on the play 10 yards.

Kris Godinez  52:43

And I blocked him, because it was like, I don’t owe you an explanation. I just told you no, no, is a complete sentence. You’re clearly a jackwagon buh bye! You know, and so it’s always amazing to me to watch these narcissists. Try the manipulation try the clearly, they didn’t know who they were dealing with. But try the guilt. That’s my favorite one. It’s like Oh, really? You’re gonna try to guilt me? How about no, block. You know, it’s it doesn’t work on me anymore. Why? Self esteem workbook? Glen. Sure all the mirror work daily. Hi, good to see you have a great day. I give you permission to say no and mean it. It’s okay. walk out. Do you see where I’m going? I know who I am. I know who I am. And nobody else can tell me who I am. And if they try, they get blocked. Simple as that. And that’s where I want you guys to get that’s where I want you guys to get because that is what’s going to stop them. That is what’s going to keep you bulletproof from energy vampires, narcissists borderlines that are not willing to work on themselves, histrionics psychopaths, etc.

So, if you know who you are, nobody can tell you who you are. If you know who you are, and you know your boundaries. Nobody can march over those boundaries they might try once, you know, but then after that, ah, No way, man. No way. So yeah, this is why self-esteem This is why I keep saying self-esteem is the key to healing self-esteem and boundaries. The word no, no, when I mean it, and not putting up with crap. When somebody shows me especially a stranger when somebody shows me who they are. And I’m just like, really? You’re going to try that on me? How about go pound sand? And whatever else I can say that’s a four letter word that I can no longer say because I’m being sponsored. So anyway, the point being is, is they try it and then I block them. I don’t even play. The best way to win is to not play don’t play their game. They want you to stay and argue and that’s what that person wanted. They wanted me to write back and explain. No, I don’t. I’m like I’m sorry. You’re not the boss of me. I don’t know you Jack diddly squat. Thank you have a nice day. Go pound sand. You know what I’m saying? So, block we’re done. You know or if it’s in person. I said no, Get off my property. Shut the door. You know? Seriously, it’s that simple. So, but with us being groomed and raised by abusers we have been groomed and raised to be codependent and we’ve been groomed and raised to think that doing that is terrible and rude and this and that and the other thing and horrible and bla bla bla bla bla. No, no, no, no, no. Let me be very clear the only people who think boundaries are rude are abusers. The only people who think boundaries are rude. Are abusers. Abusers also think manners are rude. They think people who have manners are chumps. Because it’s a weakness to them.

Kris Godinez  55:44

So I mean, you can be nice about saying no, but if they don’t take no for an answer, you then have to get tough and you have to slam the door in their face or you have to block them, period. That’s what you have to do to protect yourself because some of these people you’re right will not take no for an answer. And you have to be able to say guess what? Mother Clucker you’re taking no for an answer. Have a nice day. Go pound sand. So there that is okay.

Let’s see. Ah, okay. How can they the energy vampires be happy talking to someone who clearly doesn’t want to talk or listen because they enjoy knowing that they’re annoying you? They do. They enjoy seeing that you’re irritated, and you’re flustered. And you can’t find a way to say no, no, you can’t walk away. It’s a power trip to them. They enjoy it. Honest to God, I’m saying Listen to me now, believe me later, go watch What We Do In The Shadows.  The Colin Robinson thing. He’s got it down. That actor God love him. He’s got it down. The writers, God love them. They’ve got it down. They understand how these people work. They enjoy seeing people squirm. They enjoy seeing people pass out. They enjoy seeing people trying to look for an exit, not being able to find one because they can’t say no. They enjoy it. It makes them feel powerful. That’s their supply. Yeah. And it also plays into the fact that they don’t like themselves. And so there’s a part of them that’s like, oh, this person really doesn’t like me. Oh, well, I’m just gonna keep talking. That’ll prove that they like me. You know, it’s this weird, sick dynamics. So, you don’t even play, you just walk away, walk away.

The other thing I’ve seen them do too, is when you do walk away? Why don’t you like me? And I talk about this in my new book that’s coming out yes, this month. It’s So, You Want To Be A Therapist, which is an insider’s guide to my profession. So, when I was going through school, there was a woman that was in school that should not have ever been allowed to be in a position that would make her become a therapist, she should she should not have been a therapist ever. And she was there to learn about herself. So, she was disordered like nobody’s business, and she would intentionally sabotage whatever Learning Team she was in. So, she got put into my learning team one time, and she started the whole sabotage and the whole drama, and she tried to use us for therapy, free therapy, you know, for 2, 3, 4 hours. And I finally threw my foot down and told the other people I said, I’m not doing this. I’m not she’s, she has no business being a therapist, she can flunk out her part of the learning team, I’m going to do my work, you’re going to do your work, she’s obviously going to piss off. So, we’ll figure it out. But we’re gonna get it done. And then one day, and I obviously, I’m not good about hiding my feelings I never have been. If I don’t like somebody, it’s pretty obvious. So, one day, she cornered me in the bathroom. Why don’t you like me? We’re adults in a master’s program, right? So we come out of the bathroom, and I knew exactly what I was dealing with. And I was like, I don’t like you. I don’t dislike you. I don’t think about you. And I turned around, and I walked out. And then she broke into a wailing, wailing million tears, and she fully expected me to turn around and come back and comfort her and I did not do it. And from that day on, she avoided me, because she knew she was not going to get narcissistic supply. I wasn’t going to play. I wasn’t going to give it to her. I wasn’t going to play her game. You know? And she tried everything. She tried the intimidation. She tried the victim. She tried that, you know, so yeah, they’re everywhere. They’re everywhere. So you just have to be willing to say no, and you have to be willing to walk away and you have to be willing to let them have whatever drama game they’re gonna have. Now Was she really hurt and wailing because she was so hurt by me? No. She was wailing because she wanted to make sure everybody knew that her little feelings had been hurt, and that she wanted me to come back and comfort her and I wasn’t about to do that. So, So, yeah, they’re drama, drama, I’m sorry, drama belongs either on the stage or on the screen. And that is it. I’m not putting up with that in my life. And I’m certainly not putting up with that in a degree where I need to get my license, so you’re not messing with my future. So, do you see where I’m going with that? So yeah. So, you got to say no, and you got to mean it. And you cannot be… What’s the word I’m looking for? You are not responsible for their reaction. You’re not I mean, obviously, unless you said something really horrible to them, like, you know, you know, calling them names or whatever.

Kris Godinez  1:00:35

But if you’re just stating a fact, it’s like, I don’t like you. I like you. I don’t think about you. Doesn’t matter. And then I leave, and they’re gonna have whatever reaction because it’s in their own head. So you do not be held hostage to them. They want to hold you hostage. We do not negotiate with terrorists. We don’t don’t play. Don’t play. Okay. I think we’re running out of time. She’s gone long on this one. So anyway, that’s it, losing my voice. Let’s call it good for this week. Happy New Years, everybody. I hope everybody had a great weekend. And you guys take good care of yourselves. Drink plenty of water, get plenty of rest. eat as healthy as you can get an exercise. Alright, my loves, go be awesome. Talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

The post 01-02-2022 Energy Vampires appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  00:27

All right. So, announcements. Alright, so Suzanna and I have decided to hold off on touring again. Thank you COVID. So, we’re kind of trying to figure that all out. However, we are still plotting and planning to do a seminar at some point it is either going to be in Scottsdale or in Palm Springs. I’ve got a massage therapist, Diane, who was on the show who’s very, very interested in doing the seminar as well. We’ve got other people that are interested in doing the seminar. Oh, hello, India. My goodness. So um, hopefully I’m hoping we’ll see how the winter goes. And if in the spring, it’s looking better. And if that antiviral pill makes a difference. That would be great. Then we’re going to look at doing a seminar probably a Friday night, Saturday morning or Saturday day would be all the seminars. And then thank you Benny. Um, then Sunday we would do the goodbye breakfast and all that sort of good stuff and I don’t like those seminars where you can’t actually sit and talk to people so I’m very much like if you went on the cruise with me and John you know, we did breakfast with you guys. We hung out we had lunch we you know, because I like talking to people and I like hearing what’s going on. So that’s kind of my way of doing a seminar. It’s like, hey, let’s you know, no host lunch, breakfast, whatever, we’ll go talk and we’ll do the seminars and hang out and answer all your questions. So, at some point, it is going to happen and it’s going to be more than just me and Suzanna. I think it’s gonna be me, Susanna, Diane Brown, who’s a massage therapist. I’m trying to get Marsha Diane who is also a therapist. She’s very spiritual to do that. So, we’ll, we’ll see how that goes.

All right, speaking of Suzanna, You’re Still That Girl Suzanna Quintana at Suzannaquintana.com. She’s my girl because she’s awesome. So, this is a great book for recovering from a narcissistic abusive relationship. There is Shahida’s book, which I just I love her, Shahida Arabi The Highly Sensitive Person’s Guide to Dealing with Toxic People. I love this book because she has all sorts of suggestions for journaling and things to do to work, you know, cognitively work out the abuse. So, this is a great book. If you are going through a divorce, you need to get Splitting by Bill Edie and Randy Krieger. Because this will tell you, I’m running out of room Good Lord, I’m just gonna put this on the floor. Hang on.

Kris Godinez  03:22

This will tell you everything that your abusive ex is going to pull during the legal process. So, this is a great book if you’re thinking of divorcing or if you’re in the middle of a divorce, or if you’re in denial, and you’re going no, they would never do X, Y and Z. Yeah, they will, they will do X, Y and Z, I know they’re gonna do X, Y and Z, these guys know they’re going to do X, Y and Z you need to know they’re going to do X, Y and Z. So, this is a great book. If you are interested in my books, You Can Lead a Horse to Water But You Can’t Make ‘em Cha-Cha why some people get into abusive relationships and stay and other people get out and then my first book What’s Wrong with Your Dad… got about four hours. So, this is about my journey and kind of like why I became a therapist. So right there also to let you know I just got my headshots done for the new book which is called So You Want To Be A Therapist. So that’s coming out soon I just got the headshots done for that I’m going to be doing the audio for it in November. So, the hardcopy book is probably going to be coming out sometime this month and the audio book will be coming out sometime in November, December that’s the evil plan and I’m working on the fourth book which is more along the lines of You Can Lead a Horse to Water But You Can’t Make ‘Em Cha, Cha. But this time it’s about you know finding yourself coming out of the abusive relationship and finding yourself so there is that!

Okay, so let’s dive into this. So, a lot of the times I get questions about well what’s the difference between dependent personality disorder versus being codependent Well, there’s a lot there’s, there’s, there’s a lot! So let’s go Read the DSM Let’s read what this is so dependent personality disorder and this is a cluster C okay? So, narcissism and borderline are cluster B’s, dependent personality disorder is a cluster C. So, pervasive and excessive need to be taken care of that leads to submissiveness and clinging behavior and fears of separation kind of sounds like borderline in a lot of ways beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts indicated by five or more of the following but it’s different than borderline so I just want to be very clear about that. The borderline remember, borderline personality disorder when it starts sliding down the spectrum has got traits of all the major personality disorders so they can be dependent they can be terrified of making a decision because they’re afraid of being abandoned. So um, number one has difficulty making decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others so in other words, you know a healthy normal person can walk into a store try on a pair of pants and go “Yeah, those are the ones!” or “Oh no! That makes…Lord what is happening to my butt!” You know seriously so they can make a decision not a problem it’s like Yes, I’m gonna buy these pants are good or God no. With somebody with dependent personality disorder, they need to get everybody’s opinion the sales clerk’s opinion, their friend’s, opinion, their parent’s opinion their… they can’t just walk in and just be confident in their choice of Okay, done, you know, etc. This is what I want or no, this is not what I want, etc. So they have to have an excessive amount of advice and reassurance that they’re making the right choice. Why? Because people with dependent personality disorder were probably raised by Narcissus they were probably raised by an abuser and abusers are notorious for rubbing our noses in things that we got wrong.

So, this is where avoidant personality disorder also comes in. And dependent personality disorder also comes in because if you were raised by somebody that’s constantly rubbing your nose in what you did wrong, you’re going to learn to either A. Not make a choice at all and avoid it. Or, you’re going to ask for everybody’s opinion on it to make sure you did the right choice so that you don’t get into trouble. So, there is that Okay, number two needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of his or her own life. So, they abdicate they just abdicate I can’t do this I’m a victim I can’t! I don’t have the ability I… you know, I’m not strong enough I’m not smart enough. I don’t you know, whatever. So, they abdicate they abdicate being parents, they abdicate responsibility they don’t get a job they don’t you know, it’s kind of along those lines that really bad 1930s kind of romance thing where usually the woman says I can’t think any more you have to think for both of us. What no! With a side of no and an extra helping of no and oh my God, no! So yeah, they abdicate they abdicate responsibility for most major areas of their life. Three has difficulty expressing disagreement with others now this is sounding a little bit like codependency now remember codependency is not in the DSM five it’s not it should be it’s not but it’s it’s not in there but it exists You and I have seen it we have it we see it you know we’ve had to work on it with the Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker. So, this has a little bit of the codependency and it has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because fear of loss of support or approval.

Kris Godinez  08:49

Okay, now this does not include fear of retribution because that’s what happens in abusive relationships there’s a fear of making you know waves because you know, the abuser is going to beat you harm you hurt you put you down, you know, throw you around, etc, etc, etc. So that’s a little different.

Four has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on his or her own because of a lack of self confidence in judgment or abilities, rather than a lack of motivation or energy. So oftentimes, when I work with survivors of abuse, they will be terrified of doing things on their own going out to dinner by themselves, you know, making a choice at a restaurant by themselves Why? Because the abusers oftentimes order for their targets of abuse and it gets to the point where they literally don’t know what they want. You know, they couldn’t tell you what they like what they don’t… like they’ve, they’ve abdicated so much to the abuser that they no longer know themselves. So yeah, they, they fear going and doing things by themselves. “Well, I’ll look silly. People will look at me. I can’t go to The gym by myself people will look at me!” Yeah, you can go to the gym by yourself because nobody cares trust me on that one! So one thing I did recommend to a client that was terrified of going out and, and either working out or going to a restaurant or things like that go to someplace where you are not you know in a huge room go to like you know one of those walk up stands you know a truck okay? Nobody’s going to notice that you’re by yourself there’s a lot of people out there by themselves a lot of business people go and eat at the food trucks etc. etc. etc. or if you’re terrified of working out and you’re afraid of people looking at you do an exercise where people are not looking at you. Yoga. Nobody’s looking at you, trust me on that one. You’re we’re too busy trying not to kill ourselves putting ourselves into downward dog especially if you’re my age. So, you know or Pilates. Pilates you’re usually on your back looking up at the ceiling and you’re not paying attention to what other people are doing you know so do things that you can do that this doesn’t start going ‘Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God! What if? What if? What if?” The truth of the matter is, is most people are so wrapped up in their own heads and their own lives, they’re not paying attention to other people, they really aren’t. I know for me when I’m doing Pilates, I’m so focused on not doing anything to harm myself that I’m not paying attention to what other people are doing I’m paying attention to you know, lifting the muscles and making sure I’m using my core and you know things like that so yeah, it’s a good idea to do something that’s going to be not… because if you go to one of those gyms, I know I’m going off on a tangent bear with me. If you go to one of those gems where it’s a meat market Yeah, they are looking at each other. Yeah, they are wearing full makeup while they’re working out on the treadmill that happened in LA all the time and I’m always sitting there going girl you’re not here for the workout Are you You’re here for a different kind of workout. Hmm. So yeah, you don’t want to, you don’t want to go to a gym like that, go to a gym where people are so focused on working out that they’re not paying attention other people don’t go to one of the meat market ones. No, no, that’s yucky. No, no.

Okay, um, number four has difficulty initiating projects. Oh, I said that one. Okay, number five, goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others to the point of volunteering to do things that are unpleasant. That does sound like a little bit like codependent so codependency we go over and above in order to get approval from whoever that we’re okay. Okay, so here’s some like the contrast and comparison there’s a little bit of codependency in this a lot not so. Um, okay, feels helpless or uncomfortable when alone we talked about that because of exaggerated fears of being unable to care for him or herself or being afraid of being made fun of because what narcissists do what do abusive parents do, they make fun of their kids. Ask me how much I like those parents. Yeah. I don’t like them at all. So yeah, they do that and then that causes people to be afraid of being made fun of urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close relationship ends

Kris Godinez  13:14

So that does happen to survivors of abuse, they get out of one relationship and without working on themselves they dive right back into another one because they cannot stand the idea of being alone with themselves because these thoughts are no bueno. So, this does sound a little bit like borderline as well, which is interesting. And you know narcissists do the same thing. They can’t stand not having a supply their reasoning is they need supply. Borderlines reasoning is they can’t stand being alone because they need that support because the thoughts are so mean to them. And dependent it’s the same thing they’re afraid of being alone. What’s, what are the thoughts? What are the thoughts?

Number eight is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of him or herself. Okay, so that’s dependent personality disorder. Now let’s talk about codependent Now if you notice, it all starts kind of you know, sounding like oh, well this sounds like borderline this sounds like narcissism this sounds like codependent, etc, etc, etc. With both borderline and narcissism. When they slide down towards the malignant end of the spectrum, it’s no longer just traits of okay? They are actively harming other people. They’re enjoying it. They’re, you know, dark triad for the Narcissists. They’re getting down to that Witch and Queen area for the borderlines, all of the personality disorders literally start over lapping and they have traits of all of them. So, it is interesting that you see similarities between those So okay, where do I want to go next? Okay, I want to….. I need to turn down the sound because it Just buzzed in my ear.

Okay um I want to go to codependency because I talked about dependent personality disorder excessive dependence on others needing to be taken care of submissive or clingy fear of having to provide self-care, lack of self-confidence, difficulty starting or doing projects, difficulty disagreeing with others, fearing disapproval, tolerance of poor or abusive treatment. When the other, when other options are available. urgent need to start a new relationship when one has ended. Okay. All right.

So, let’s go to codependent doo, doo doo. Okay, so again, I found some really cool articles. So, one is on and this is a couple of years old. This is on elephant journal and it’s called let me find the title of it. Harley Quinn and ending the stigma we have about abuse targets they say victims I like the word target. So, let’s talk about Harlequin. Harlequin is honestly one of the best examples of codependency I’ve ever seen in popular literature. Because Harlequin was a obviously character comic book character, marvelously done by Margot Robbie, she’s just amazing. If you have not seen the newest Suicide Squad, I highly recommend it. It is violent, but she’s just, she blows my mind. Anyway, she’s a great actress. Anyway, Harlequin in the comics was a psychiatrist, and she was treating the Joker at the Arkham Asylum thing. And he started getting in her head. And he started love bombing. And he started you know, telling her how great she was and how fabulous she was. And but then as soon as he knew he got her the devalue and the discard happened. And at the end of one of the arcs of the I think it was the television that the Huh, what am I trying to say the animated television show? At the end of one of the arcs of the animated television show she outdoes the Joker she’s actually smarter than he is she’s actually better guess being a villain. And she was able to pull off this this crime, you know, to kill Batman, and she was better at it than he was and you in a healthy relationship. If your partner out does you you cheer for them. You’re like, go you you’re fabulous in that relationship, because he’s obviously a psychopath, antisocial psychopath. Dark triad. Everything bad, is the Joker. When she does that  he becomes enraged and screams at her and tells her how stupid she was that she ruined it all and it was all her fault. And then he throws her out of a window. And the sad thing of it is, is that at the end of that episode, there was Harlequin and a bloodied mess on the floor on the ground, and she’s sobbing and she says I didn’t get the joke. It’s my fault. I didn’t get the joke. That’s heart breaking. And then she goes about becoming less than you know, she’s

she’s the joke now she’s she’s stupid, you know, and she allows the Joker to be the smart, brilliant mastermind, whatever.

Kris Godinez  18:26

So, it’s, it’s a codependent relationship in that she’s constantly trying to make him okay. She’s constantly trying to make sure he’s taken care of she’s constantly trying to make sure that his wants his needs, his desires, his plans, his brilliance, his you know, whatever, is all taken care of. And later on in the series, he once she’s in the hospital, he then starts sending her flowers. After he did the devalue in the discard, so he did the Hoover. So, it’s the, it’s the abuse clock all over again. So, it blew up with her, actually showing him that he wasn’t the smart one. He wasn’t the greatest thing ever that she actually had as much or more smarts than he did. Then he devalued and discarded her threw her out of a window she took all the blame. Ooooh, does this sound familiar? Current recent events you know, Gabby Pettit perhaps you know she took all the blame put it on her goes into the hospital is maybe thinking about maybe leaving him maybe you know who knows that thought might have crossed your mind. And then he starts love bombing again, sending her flowers lots and lots of flowers, lots and lots of flowers. So, the love bomb started all over again. So that is a great example of codependency and she stays, she stays with him. And it’s not because she’s, you know, a bad person or anything else like that. It’s because something in her past has informed her that this as normal This is love and that is not love! So love isn’t painful. Let me…. please get this and please share these videos with as many people as you can because if you know somebody who’s in a relationship like that they need to get Love does not hurt. Love does not hurt ever, ever! If it hurts, it is not love. It’s abuse. It’s dysfunctional. It’s toxic, it is not love. Okay, so somehow somewhere in her mind this was okay somehow somewhere she childhood stuff I don’t know. But in her mind even though she was a brilliant psychiatrist she fell for the psychopath and she became literally a different person Harley Quinn so um yeah, it’s, it’s has to do with self-esteem. People who love themselves don’t put up with that kind of abuse. And once somebody has harmed them, you know, you give them the opportunity to make amends. But if they don’t, if they’re not honest and truthful, then yeah, you’re done.

So, let’s talk about the six hallmarks of codependency Okay. Um, all right, and this is on psychology today. This is called the six hallmarks of codependency they have an excessive we have an excessive and unhealthy tendency to rescue and take responsibility for other people. And this is the biggest mistake we make when we are involved with an abuser. So just like Harlequin, oh, it’s all my fault. Just like Gabby Pettit. Oh, it’s all me, you know, we have a tendency to do that, instead of going, No, this is their stuff, this is them, we have a tendency to take on the responsibility for the emotions, for the behaviors for the actions for the whatever for their happiness. I can’t tell you the number of times I have seen adult children sit on my couch, well, no more because I’m doing everything through video now but you know, get in front of me and tell me that it was their job to care for and make sure mom was happy or dad was happy, or that the siblings were happy or that you know, they had to care take the siblings. So, codependency generally comes from different from dependent personality disorder. Codependence generally can make decisions. But the problem of it is, that every decision they make is based on how it’s going to help somebody else and not how they’re going to take care of themselves. So, we become codependent, when we have a family or a family member that is absentee, neglectful abusive, alcoholic drug addict and we end up having to care take them or we end up having to care take them, be parentifide and take care of the younger siblings. So that is where we get this codependent feeling of, I have to take care of other people, I have to do things for other people, I can’t do anything for myself. And if somebody does something for somebody who’s codependent, they immediately want to turn around and do that for them. So, it’s like they can’t just accept the gift of whatever’s being given. You know, it’s like, oh, no, no, no, no, I need to do this for you, too. Oh, no, no, no, I need to do this. No, you need to accept it and just enjoy it seriously. So that is where codependency comes from is from be parentifide, and having to care, take the parent care, take the other kids care, take other family members, etc, etc, etc. We are trying to save ourselves by saving the family. I know.

Okay, number two, derive a sense of purpose and boost the self-esteem through extreme sacrifice to satisfy the needs of others. So, we do that. So how many times has the abuser

Kris Godinez  23:56

walked in and taken something that was ours and we just let them do it? You know, because they wanted it? Oh, well, they must need it more than I do. Or they must want it more than I do. So, what I’ve seen in cases of abuse in an in a romantic relationship is the spouse the, the codependent spouse will get a bonus or an inheritance or something and the abuser will swoop in and go I want that and the codependent spouse goes okay, and hands it over. Or if the codependent spouse buys themselves something nice the abuser swoops in. How dare you and then they feel guilty. Hello, fear, obligation, guilt, fear, obligation, guilt, the fog, and then they turn around and either give that to the abuser or they go buy the abuser, something similar. Okay? Because narcissists are like two year olds, if you have something they want it too, or better. So, the codependent instead of drawing a boundary and going No, this is my inheritance that I got from my mother or my father or no, this is the bonus that I got. I’ve been working for I’ve been saving up for this thing for myself you know drawing a boundary instead of being able to do that they give in and they give the abuser whatever they want because they’re terrified of the abuser being vindictive retribution etc. etc. etc. So, there is that!

Hold on let’s go back. Okay, number three choose to enter and stay in lengthy high-cost caretaking and rescuing relationships despite the cost to themselves or to others. So they’ll get involved with somebody and I’ve heard this 100,000 million times and it kills me every single time I hear it well but they deserve love too. Well yes, technically everybody on the face of the planet deserves love. Love is the highest power. However, if they are a covert narcissist, okay, covert narcissists are the ones that do the whole covert narcissist and hermits borderlines are the ones that do the martyr… I do all of this for you, you never do anything for me victim, victim, victim, victim, victim, you know, you don’t treat me well blah, blah, blah, and when in fact the codependent is treating them like a king or queen so they stay in these relationships trying to get this approval from this person that’s never… listen to me now, believe me later. Never going to approve and it always the bar gets raised you know you do 100,000 million things for them they’ll want 100,000 million and one. You know, so they get involved in these relationships thinking it’s just around the corner so that intermittent positive reward, that addiction aspect to it “Well but, you know they were they were nice to me once so you know I can feel it they’re going to be nice again it’s going to change.” It’s just like a gambling addict you sitting at the slots going “Oh it’s gonna come any minute! You know “The jackpot is gonna be here any minute! It’s gonna be here any minute!” And never comes up. So that is what good lord Mystique! That is what we do as, as codependence is that we keep hoping or waiting for, for the jackpot, for the payoff, but it never comes because they’re always dangling that carrot in our, in our face, okay.

Let’s go back to the other hallmarks, okay? regularly try to engineer the change of troubled, addicted or under functioning people whose problems are far bigger than their abilities to fix them. So, codependency the term codependency really came out of, it really came out of addiction. And it was to describe the enablers who were helping the alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. But they really weren’t helping, and they were killing themselves trying to help them. So, for example, they will oftentimes in addiction, you know, send them to rehab, after rehab, after rehab, after rehab, after rehab, and they just don’t stop. Why Why aren’t you stopping? Well, I can’t have them fail.

Kris Godinez  28:10

You can in fact, you need to in addiction you have to and if somebody is unwilling to pick up the mantle and go help themselves, you literally cannot help them, you literally can only help people who are willing to help themselves you cannot… listen to me now believe me later. You cannot help the unwilling. Let me say that again. You cannot help the unwilling. If they’re getting a payoff from being a victim, or from being a bully, they’re not going to change, they’re not and what I hear, and the heartbreaking thing I hear from parents of addicted children is “Oh my God! I can’t let them be homeless! Oh my God! I can’t let them fail! No, you have to. You have to. That’s the only way some people get better. Some people’s rock bottom is death, it is. Other people’s rock bottom is they get a DUI, “Oh my God, that’s enough I’m done!” Or other people’s rock bottom is losing family and friends. Some people never get it, it’s a matter of thirds. So, like a third of people go into recovery and they get it and they stay clean and sober. Another, I have yet to meet those people…. Another third of people you know, get into recovery, relapse, relapse, relapse, relapse, relapse and finally get clean and sober and another third just never, never get it and they just keep failing and keep going down the hole. You cannot help people that don’t want to help themselves. You can only help the willing and it’s the same thing in therapy and I tell new therapists this all the time is never work harder than your client your client is got to want to get better and if they really want to get better, they’re going to do the work and I talked about that in the book, So You Want To Be A Therapist, because a lot of people you know it’s like but, but, but no, I know you want everybody to be okay. I want everybody to be okay. Wouldn’t that be great? Wouldn’t it be great if everybody was okay because then I could retire and own a b&b on a beach somewhere Victorian haunted, that would be so cool. Anyway, good haunting, not scary, haunting, little old lady that makes bread anyway, the point being is that people, you can’t help somebody that doesn’t want to change.

Narcissists don’t want to change, they don’t, they tell you they do. But the only time a narcissist ever goes to therapy is if they’ve been forced to by the courts, they are being forced to by family, or they are being forced to by the spouse and they won’t stick with it, they go for like, three times. And as soon as the therapist goes ah, what’s your part in this, they go screw you and they’re out of there. So Alright, hold on, we’re running out of time.

Ah, okay, um, okay, have a pattern of engaging and well intentioned, but ultimately unproductive, unhealthy, helping behaviors such as enabling, and what ends up happening. And this is the sad part is the person you’re trying to help ends up resenting the living crap out of you, you will lose them in the end, you will, because they didn’t really want to change in the first place, they didn’t really want to get help in the first place. They see that you see that they’re not healthy, functioning, whatever, they start getting really resentful, and you will lose them in the end.

So, one thing I said I wanted to talk about before we dive into the questions because we are going to get to the questions but I wanted to talk about this first. Um, one thing I wanted to talk about was when to codependents get together. So initially, when two codependents get together, it’s kind of like I don’t know if you remember the Jungle Book, the old one, the, the cartoon one. And the vultures are all sitting on the tree. What do you want to do? I dunno. What do you want to do? I don’t know, what do you want to do? It’s kind of back and forth forever because everybody’s afraid to make a decision because they don’t want to piss off the other people. So that kind of happens in the beginning, but as the relationship goes on, and one member of the codependent team starts making themselves small in order to make the other person happy and always giving up to their… well, where do you want to go to dinner? You know, and never being able to allowed to make where they’re going to go to dinner, what they’re going to do or whatever, the resentment starts building, the resentment starts building and eventually it starts bubbling and then that’s when people end up on my couch. So usually at a point when it’s too late, so and this is the thing that kills me it’s like codependents have this and we all do it because Hello recovering Hello, you know, um, we have this desire to people please which is why I’m saying Harriet Braiker The Disease To Please read it. Melanie Beatty Codependent No More. Sherry Thank you. Melanie Beatty Codependent No More, Beyond Codependent No More. PM Melody has a book on codependency. We want to people please we want to make them happy we want to you know we want everything to be smooth and great and wonderful and awesome.

Kris Godinez  33:12

But then they don’t return the favor or or it just becomes this like analysis paralysis. I don’t know! What do you want to do? I don’t know, what do you want to do? The resentment starts building if we start going oh no, that’s okay. Yeah, no, that’s fine. A German food is fine when really you wanted Indian food you know that’s the time to speak up. But those little things start building and building and building and building and that’s when the resentment starts and that’s what kills a relationship so two codependents together is no bueno as well so you know in the beginning it’s all let me please you, let me please you, let me please you, let me please you, I don’t know what do you want to do? What do you want to do? But then eventually it’s like oh, no, that’s okay. Oh no, that’s okay. Oh no, no, I really don’t want that Oh no, no, I really don’t want that either. Oh, no, da, da, da, da, da and you start giving up little aspects of yourself and then eventually you get really angry because the resentment has built up so much because you haven’t spoken up for yourself you haven’t said no, this is what I want. You know, we can do this one week and we can do this the other week or you know, whatever. So, boundaries, boundaries, Disease to Please Harriet Braiker, Self-Esteem Workbook, Glen Schiraldi. That is the cure for codependency because people who love themselves stand up for themselves. Dependent personality disorder. Those are the professional victims; they never make a decision. They can’t decide for themselves, they need an exorbitant amount of reassurance. So again, therapy and it’s probably because of trauma. Guarantee it probably came about because of trauma that caused them to second guess themselves to the point where they are now stuck. So there that is Alright, let’s dive into the questions.

Okay. Isn’t this kind of dependency and codependency connected to the lack of self-differentiation? Yes. So, when we are with an abuser Literally, by the time we’re done with that abusive relationship, whether it is a parenting relationship, or whether it is a romantic relationship, or even a boss relationship, we lose who we are, we no longer know who we are, and our boundaries become so blurred, that we don’t know where we begin and end and where that romantic relationship begins and ends, or where that familial relationship begins and ends. So that’s why it’s really, really important self-esteem, boundaries, deal breakers, these are all ways to differentiate yourself, to have a clear boundary from who you are versus who they are, you know, so that you know what your wants and needs are. So very often I have people sitting on my couch after the end of an abusive relationship. Where’s My Water? There it is. Thank you. Okay. Sorry, oh. And they will tell me, I don’t know who I am anymore. I don’t know what I want anymore. I don’t remember what makes me happy. Because they lived for so many. days, weeks, months, years, some cases decades, trying to make this person who will never be healthy, who will never be happy, who will never approve, to be healthy, happy to approve. And so, they’ve lost who they are. It’s like, I don’t know who I am. And I couldn’t even tell you what I like to eat. That literally happens. So yes, differentiation. It’s like beginnings and endings, where you begin and end, where they begin and end. Boundaries, boundaries, super important self-esteem, super important. Basically, everything literally boils down to self-esteem. Work on your self esteem work on the mirror, “Hi! Good to see you! Have a great day! You know what? I give you permission to say no!” And then listen to what the internal critic does. If the internal critic pops up and starts screaming at you, demeaning you, that’s what you need to work on. Thank you for your input. Shut the Bleep up. Why? Because I say so! I am the boss of this. This is not the boss of me. I get to say no. Why? Because I say so. I am the boss. And you reaffirm that and you do that as many times as you need to. So, boundary drawing, self-esteem is huge. Go back to finding out what you like to do. What did you used to like to do before you got involved with the abuser? Or when you were a kid and you were in the crazy family? What was it that you used to like to do? What did you used to enjoy doing that they didn’t touch that they couldn’t get ahold of, or maybe they did get a hold of it, but you used to like to do it before they got a hold of it. Go back to doing that. So, this is why I tell people it’s never too late to have a happy childhood. Go fly kites.

Kris Godinez  37:53

Oh my god, I love flying kites. When we lived in Oregon, we went to the beach, we went to Cannon Beach all the time. And I would fly kites there and it just made me so ridiculously happy. Because that’s what little kids like doing. So, get back to the things that make you happy. Get back to doing the things that bring you joy. Try coloring, coloring books, oh my gosh, one of my girlfriends had two little kids. And so there was a you know, cocktail party, etc, etc. I went off with the little kids and we sat there we drawed. Oh, good grammar Kris. We drew in the comic book or the coloring book. And it was so much fun. And it was so relaxing. There’s a reason why there’s a whole bunch of adult coloring books out because it’s relaxing. It’s fun. You know, so do that. Do things that bring you joy. Do you like miniature golf? Go do miniature golf. Do you like bowling, go do bowling. What are your favorite foods go explore what you want, what you enjoy. Experiment with going out to dinner by yourself. Tell this voice to shut the Bleep up and to go pound sand when it’s like oh my god, people are looking at me blah, blah, blah. No, they’re not. I’m gonna have the salmon, thank you, you know or whatever. So go and do things that challenge you that expand your boundaries that expand your you know, if you’ve made your world super small, go expand it back out again. Go try new things, go do new things. go explore. Figure out what you want. What is important to you, what makes you happy, what brings you joy.

Remember, narcissists do not feel the way we do. They don’t they don’t experience love or joy or happiness or anything else the way a healthy normal person does. And when they see somebody experiencing a healthy normal emotion, whether that’s crying or anger or joy or happiness or whatever. They come unglued because they can’t feel it. So, they try to take it away from us. They’ll take over hobbies, they’ll take over what we like to eat, they’ll take over cooking, they’ll take over whatever brings us joy. They’ll try to take it away from us so your job once you get out of an abusive relationship is to go remind yourself what you used to like to do and what you do like to do that you haven’t done in years because of the abuse. So, get back to that. I hope that answered the question.

Um, the behaviors under dependent personality disorder sound like they could have been induced by abusive treatment? Yes, absolutely. If so, isn’t it more like a set of learned behaviors that can be unlearned than a typically hard to treat disorder? Yes and no. So, think of it this way, if it was learned under abuse, and they were itty, bitty, little itty, bitty ones, okay, it’s the same thing with borderline they started being abused when they were itty bitty. And so those fears, fear is a very powerful motivator. It’s a very powerful deterrent. It’s a very powerful, it’s a powerful emotion. It is, um, you have to undo all of those fears. You have to undo all of those mistaken thoughts, you have to undo all of those mistaken beliefs. So, if you find yourself with dependent personality disorder, if you find yourself constantly being terrified of making a choice, or making a decision or whatever you’re going to want to get with a good trauma therapist absofreakinglutely. Yes, it is based in trauma. Most personality disorders are, not all of them. Not all. Narcissism is not based in trauma. Don’t let them BS you with that. They do. They try. They’re like, Oh, I had a traumatic trauma. No, you didn’t. So don’t get me started. So, but most of them like borderline, dependent, avoidant, OCD. Those are all based in trauma, all of them schizo affective, schizo schizotypal. Not, you know, but the borderline, the avoidant, the dependent, the OCD, yes, those are all based in trauma, if you have any of those, get with a good trauma therapist and start working on the trauma. And that’s going to actually help you resolve all of the behaviors that are learned that are coming up out of that. So yeah, that’s why when anybody says they have any of those, I’m like, okay, here’s what we need to work on. We need to work on the trauma, we need to work on this, we need to work on boundaries, we need to work on self-esteem, we need to work on inner child work, inner child work, because that’s where the trauma happens. So that would be The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor. Now, some people because the trauma was so great, they don’t remember their childhood. That’s okay. You don’t have to, it’s enough to know that you don’t remember your childhood, which is a huge red flag. Oh, my goodness, looking like the Communist Party seriously is like a red flag. The trauma happened, okay, something happened, you may not remember it, and that’s okay. You can still work with it. You know, I don’t remember from ages, I don’t know, zero to six. But

Kris Godinez  42:50

then after six, I remember stuff. Okay. Well, something happened. We don’t know what yet. But we’re going to start assuming that something happened. And we’re going to start working through the inner child workbook and working on the self-esteem of that little four-year-old. Do you see where I’m going with that you start building the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the boundaries, build the love for yourself, that’s what’s important. So yes, it is trauma informed, and it is still hard to treat because fear, like I said, is primal. It is part of the fight, flight, freeze or faun, motivator. And if these behaviors have kept us safe, while we were growing up in an abusive relationship and abusive home, it’s going to be hard to get rid of them, but not impossible. Not impossible. So, but it does take a good trauma therapist working on the inner child, working on the trauma, working on building self-esteem, working on building boundaries. deal breakers. Yep, absolutely.

Okay, let’s see, um, how to get over the shame of having made myself smaller when I was in a codependent relationship. I keep remembering how people thought about me back then. Okay. None of us are who we were. None of us. All of us have made mistakes. All of us, if we’re codependent. All of us have made ourselves small in order to try to please the partner. Forgive yourself, sweetie, forgive yourself. We’ve all been there. done that. Hello. Hi, my name is Kris Godinez, and I’m a recovering codependent. Seriously, if that’s what you have to do, because that’s how we were groomed. That’s how we were raised. There’s a reason we became codependent is because it’s usually from having been in a family of origin, where we had to care to take, care give all the time. And we had to take care of people and this and the other thing, and then we take that out into our other everyday life. So, forgive yourself, forgive yourself. You didn’t know what you didn’t know when you didn’t know it. Now you know better. Now you can do better. So, you forgive yourself and if other people oh here’s Hmm, here’s a big one. If other people try to bring up your past and make you wrong for how you were in the past and go, Oh, well, you know you did this when you were in high school, or you did this when you were in grade school, or you did this when you were a young adult. That’s when you really got to ask yourself, what’s the motivation? What’s what, what’s, what’s their agenda? Because who else does that? Hmm, that would be I don’t know, Narcissists dragging up the past trying to put shame into your head over something you did 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago. You always want to question the motivation of that person doing that. Why are they doing that? And when sometimes when people do that with me, like there’s a few people from my high school that when I have to go to high school reunions, they’ll try to do that, and I’ll look at them and go, Yeah, well, that’s not who I am anymore. Thanks for asking. And then I’ll buzz on off. It’s like I’m not playing your game. Thank you. So yeah, you just self-confidence is self-esteem. self-esteem is self-confidence. It really is. Boundaries is also self-esteem and self-confidence. So yeah, you want to ask yourself, what’s the motivation for dragging up the past and trying to embarrass you with it? Or if you’re the one dragging up your own past try to embarrass yourself for it. Who taught you the shame? Huh? Who taught us the shame? Abusers teach us the shame. Abuser shove their shame into our head and we think it’s ours. It is not! Hand the shame back to where it belongs CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. Chapter Three. I think it’s chapter three. I really need to go back and take a look at that book. Anyway. I think it’s chapter three. Putting the shame and the blame and the anger and everything else, the guilt back to where it belongs. It is not yours we do not pop out of the womb feeling guilty. We don’t! Yeah! Or shameful, we don’t, that’s taught that’s a taught behavior. So yeah, you want to forgive yourself. We all make ourselves smaller, every single one of us and we can heal and recover from being codependent. And how do we do that? We do the mirror work. We do the workbooks. We do the CPTSD From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker. We do the Self-Esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, we do The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor, we get with a good trauma therapist, we start working through our past, where did this come from? Why did I believe this, we get rid of the mistaken thoughts and the mistaken beliefs. And you do recover from it. You do! It takes work, though. And a lot of times, people will want to get help, but they’re not really wanting to do the work. And I have to explain to them it’s like, this is not osmosis, you’re not just going to have a session with me and suddenly, you know, you’re a healed you know, it

Kris Godinez  47:48

would be great if it worked that way. Wow. Wouldn’t that be cool that that would be cool. That would be cool. doesn’t work that way, though. The only, the last person did that got, got nailed to a tree. So, you know, you can’t, you can’t expect that. When you go into therapy, you’re gonna have to do the work. And that means having to confront and feel and work through the emotions and the feelings and the thoughts and the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs that happened when we were kids. And some people are just like, No, no, no, no, no, I don’t want to do I’m just, I’m just gonna ignore it well, when we ignore things we’re not dealing with, but they’re still running in the background, like a broken code. Okay, like a broken computer. There’s something there’s some malware running in the background. And it’ll come out sideways, if you’re not aware of it, if you haven’t worked on it. That’s why I’m saying you cannot allow the fear. Remember, fear is a powerful motivator not to do things because we’re afraid. You cannot allow the fear to stop you from processing the trauma. That’s what you got to do. You got to put it back on to the abuser you got to get clear that headspace out of all the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs, that the abusive family or the abusive boyfriend or the abusive boss or the abusive friends shoved into your head because they’re not yours. You’ve got to confront it, you got to work with it. And guess what, you can do it! You can do it. And then you have to ask yourself, okay, how old do I feel? Why am I terrified. A lot of times when I’m working with clients, I’m starting to lose my voice. I can hear it. Um, a lot of times when I’m working with clients, they will you know, express this I don’t want to feel it. I don’t want to think it. I don’t want to have to well, how old are you right now? And then right after they tell me to go pound sand. They’ll say I’m two. You know, I feel like I’m two. Okay. Well, that’s where the abuse happened. That’s why you’re terrified at your two-year-old is terrified. Let’s comfort them. Like why don’t you put your two-year-old on your lap and hold her or hold him and hug him and tell him how wonderful he is? Tell her how great she is. Tell her she’s safe. Tell him she said he’s safe. Tell them that they’ve got you’ve got their back there. Okay. Everything’s good. So that’s what you got to do. So, there is that okay. Hey um don’t don’t make yourself feel shame if you feel shame put it back on the abuser and remind yourself you know we do what we can we do the best we can with what we’ve got at the time. And then afterwards, you know, now that we know better now, we can do better. Forgive yourself, forgive yourself.

Okay. codependents and Narcissus can both have a savior complex, how do they approach being a savior differently? different motivations? So, remember, a narcissist is never really truly interested in another person. They look at it as to how they can aggrandize themselves so those are the ones who do the charitable acts, but then they make sure to tell everybody all of their charitable acts, okay people who are really interested in doing charitable acts, don’t feel the need to go on to Facebook or YouTube or I don’t know what other social media Twitter, Instagram what’s the other one Snapchat? You know all of these you know things and go look at me, look at me, look at me, look at all these charitable acts that I’m doing. No, they’re doing it for self-aggrandizement. So self-aggrandizement. So, with a codependent is their wellbeing depends on the other person being okay I need to make sure you’re okay. I need to make sure this is good I need to make sure the family is working remember that’s kind of the original motivation for the whole codependency so it’s all about the other person making sure they’re okay so they can be okay whereas with the narcissist it’s Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at what I’m doing. Look at all my good charitable acts bla, bla bla, so there’s that, okay. All right. Um, and of course, here’s the thing, a narcissist will never put themselves out. Ever, they will never put themselves out. One of the defining acts of codependency is, the codependent will put themselves out to the point where they keel over, in order to help, Narcissists will never go out of their way for a single living creature on this planet, if it puts them out of comfort, they’re not going to do it. So that’s the difference. All right, um, let me take some more water because my voice is really going oh my god.

Okay, um, how to deal with a friend who purposely trauma dumps? Is there something specific I should pay attention to? With this personality type? Well, okay, I’m assuming that you mean and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m assuming that you mean that the person you know, comes and tells you all of their problems, okay. So people do that, not realizing

Kris Godinez  52:46

how hard it is on the listener. So, if you got to tell him to get a therapist, you know, if they start trauma dumping on you, you’ve got to be like, Look, I love you. I want to be here for you. However, this is a boundary. This is what you do all the time. You need to go talk to a professional, I am not a therapist, I can’t help you. A trauma therapist can help you. Right now, all you’re doing is you’re just regurgitating everything that’s happened. You need steps to help you keep moving forward so that you don’t keep living in the past. And if they come unglued. They may be like, well, you’re not a real friend, blah, blah, blah. But I’m sorry, if a friend walked up to me and said you should probably go see a therapist, I would go Okay, and go see a therapist. So, you know somebody who trauma dumps all the time generally is not interested in change. So, people who are interested in change, ask questions, what can I do about this? Can I change this? Can I help this? You know, what, what do you think I should do? And then you know, you can give them your opinion. But if they’re just coming and going, you know, and just vomiting all of this trauma all over you but not doing anything not working a workbook not seeking therapy, not doing anything to better themselves, then you need to stop because now that’s enabling them because now they’re just victim, victim, victim, victim, victim, and you don’t want that and they may or may not stick around, you know, because again, if they’re covert Narcissus, and they’re the constant victim or if they’re the hermit borderline, and they’re the constant victim, there’s a payoff for their behavior and if you’re not giving them the payoff, then why should they stick around? So, you have to be prepared to lose that friend so you recommend that they go get trauma therapy, recommend the books and if they don’t do anything to better themselves, then you know that they’re not interested in change. They’re just interested in being a victim and just vomiting all over you so you don’t have to take that you absolutely don’t boundaries. Boundaries. Okay.

Okay, this is going to be our last question because I am losing my voice. Can some people become codependent because we wrongly internalize messages from our parents that they didn’t intend to give? Or is it always from hearing overt messages? No, we can internalize unsaid things too. I don’t believe in coincidences. I don’t. So, parents can also give nonverbal you need to take care of me clues and that’s never a mistake. So yes, it can be nonverbal it can be over it can be covert. Absolutely. They can be both so yeah and basically again get with a good trauma therapist undo the mistaken thoughts undo the mistaken beliefs You do not have to caretake everybody in order to be loved and that’s our big thing is that we think that if we care take them we’re going to be loved but really what ends up happening is we take over responsibility for them we kill ourselves doing it and then they get resentful. Yeah, no, it always backfires always so what you want to do is you want to work on self-esteem The Self-esteem Workbook Glen Schiraldi.  All the boundaries Harriet Braiker The Disease to Please awesome book. Inner Child work. Figure out how old you were when this all started The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor. Mirror work “Hi, good to see you! Have a great day! I give you permission to say no and mean it!” and then walk out. So yeah, alright guys, I am losing my voice quickly. Be good. Take care of yourselves. Drink plenty of water and I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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