We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

05-08-2022 Games They Play
In this episode of We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez, Kris talks about the mind games that abusers play, specifically the covert narcissist. Kris also covers the overt and the communal narcissists games in this episode.


Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  01:00

Hi, guys. Okay, so lots of things to talk about. So, Today is Mother’s Day. And it I’ve already been talking with some people that are having a really hard time. If your mother was abusive or is abusive, know that you’re loved. Know that. we hear you, we see you, we get it, you know, the people here on this channel, get it. So, you know, you’re not alone. It is a hard day, I feel the same way about Father’s Day because my dad was abusive to me. So, I can only imagine how people are feeling about Mother’s Day when their mother was abusive to them. So, Mother’s Day is difficult. So, take a deep breath, grab some water, allow yourself to grieve, or get angry or whatever. Journal. Write. Get it out of your head, get it onto paper, and just know you’re not alone. We’ve all been here we’ve, we’ve all been through it, either with our dads or moms or both, you know, and so it is a hard day, it is and just you know, feel the feelings allow and self-care like a boss on today or every day but particularly on difficult days, like Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, so and don’t allow the flying monkeys big important point. Don’t allow the flying monkeys to use fear obligation or guilt to coerce you into getting into contact if you’ve gone on no contact, getting into contact again with your abuser so be aware of that it’s Mother’s Day so yeah, the flying monkeys are out in force the stories I have been hearing would Yeah, just oh my goodness. Anyway, don’t allow them to use fear obligation or guilt to coerce you into contacting your abuser especially if you’ve gone no contact stay no contact if you’ve gone no contact stay no contact you know if you’ve gone low contact maybe send them a text you know but be aware you know this is this is this is a day for Hoover’s for abusive mothers. So, there that is deep breath guys, you’re gonna get through it gentle with you gentle with you, whatever your feeling is valid.

Whatever you are feeling is valid. So just allow, just allow okay, sorry, heavy, heavy message first off, but you know, you got to feel the feelings. I know you don’t want to feel the feelings. I know feelings. Emotions are scary to us because emotions have been made scary to us by our abusers because remember, abusers don’t feel emotions the way we do. So when we have a genuine emotion, we usually got punished. And and if we held our parental abuser accountable, we would get punished. You know, it’s like how dare you see the pink elephant taking a crap in the corner of the living room, you know what I’m saying? So, it’s important to feel the feels it is it is because you got to feel it to heal it and you’ve got to acknowledge it and validate it and work through it. So, in other words, you don’t want to resist it. You don’t want to be like, no, no, no, no, no, don’t wanna feel, I don’t want to think about it. I don’t want to feel, I don’t want to think about… what are you doing the whole time? Feeling it and thinking about it. You’re just resisting it. What you want to do is go I feel sad, I feel angry. I feel betrayed. I feel you know, whatever. Write! Get it out of your head. Get it onto paper. Listen to me. Now believe me later. It helps get it out of your head. Get it onto paper, trot it out to the barbecue, read it out loud once burn it, burn it, let it go. Practice because that helps our brains go oh, I’ve done something I can let it go now. So, there that is.

Today we are going to talk about mostly covert narcissists. So, I am going to hit on overt and communal because they too play games, but they’re a little different. So covert narcissists are also known as the vulnerable narcissists. I hate that term I there they’re about as vulnerable as a don’t even get me started. So um, they’re known as the vulnerable narcissist. So, if you look at the Drama Triangle, they play the victim. Okay. They do. It’s like villain, victim hero. They’re the victim always. And if they’re not playing the victim, they are overly, overly saccharine. Sweet. Nice, like, unbelievably. So, does that make sense? So, they, they’re chameleons. They’re chameleons, and they usually play for the sympathy card. So, it’s kind of akin to how do I explain this? In working with couples and the mother-in-law, It’s Mother’s Day, let’s go ahead and pick on the mother in law’s so especially the ones that are abusive. The mother-in-law was covert, covert, covert, covert, lured and lulled the, the wife, the new wife into a sense of safety. Sweet little old lady, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, fast forward a few years, the woman demands to move in.

Kris Godinez  06:03

And, you know, oh, I can’t take care of myself. I can’t you know, it’s it. The winters are too hard. I need someplace to stay blah, blah, blah. So. they come they stay? And what does the covert narcissist do? The covert narcissist starts picking on the wife, and, you know, saying things to her, her son, you know, and saying things like, Oh, well, you know, she’s spending all your money, no proof. Right? Well, she’s, you know, she’s doing this, that and the other thing and, and, you know, you need to look at your bank account and dadadadadadadada you know, and just dripping poison into her son’s ear, which eventually caused a blow up in the relationship, right? Because the mother-in-law is continually dripping poison, dripping poison, but to the wife in front of the wife. Oh, I’m just here to help. Oh, I just, I just, I just love staying with you guys. I just, I’m just the sweet, little innocent, I haven’t done anything wrong. You know. So, they come off as this very two faced, but they come off as this very innocent, very nice, you know, gentle kind of little old lady that wouldn’t hurt a fly, you know. And in reality, she’s like the Terminator. So. So that’s how covert narcissists operate in. That’s why it’s called covert because they’re hiding, they’re hiding.

Kris Godinez  07:32

So they are the ones that that really, you know, you put on a front and play the victim. And as soon as they’re found out, oh my gosh, that victim stuff comes forward. So, this is something that they do. They they, ah, some they’ll get caught. And then they’ll have some sort of illness. Right, so you can’t get mad at them. That’s that’s how the covert narcissists operate. It’s like, they’ll get caught in their bad behavior. And then they’ll get sick, or they’ll hurt themselves, somehow they’ll fall they’ll, you know, have a car accident, they’ll, you know, I don’t believe in coincidences, guys. I really, truly don’t. So they avoid responsibility at all costs. And the other thing they love to do is when they are playing the victim, it’s always this overly dramatic. This, how to explain this. Covert narcissists are akin to hermit borderlines. So, these two play the same game, it’s very similar. So what they do is, is they do this very dramatic, why do these things always happen to me, and you start looking at what things they’re talking about. And it’s it’s behaviors that they have done, that have created the problem or the issue that they’re now facing. So, for example, they’ve alienated you know, the Son, the daughter, the you know, the daughter in law, the the grandkids, whatever, and then they go to everybody else and paint themselves as this Oh, victim, and why are they doing this and dadadadada? Well, okay, let’s take a look at your behavior. You tried to break up their marriage, you lied. You dripped poison in your son’s ear, you made it to the point where the son was terrified to go get help, because of what your reaction would be. Um, and then when they finally did go get help and figured out what was going on, they exed you out of their lives as well they should you see where I’m going with that and it’s never their fault. It is never their fault, never their fault, never their fault. And so they then play for the sympathy and they’re there. How do I put it when they’re, they’re charming. So, Narcissus any of the narcissists can can be charming narcissists, but particularly the quote unquote vulnerable ones. Really play that card. That is their main play. Like if they can’t be the victim then they’re going to be saccharin sweet, charming, nice innocence little old lady little old man little innocent me I couldn’t possibly harm a fly you know that whole thing. So that’s why I think that when the covert narcissist mask slips it’s really shocking, you know, especially to those that were taken in by it right initially because initially the covert narcissist comes off as overly helpful, overly sweet, overly charming, overly this overly that. And as soon as their needs don’t get met or they do not get their way then the mask slips and it slips only with the family members that they are conning, basically. And to the rest of the world. Everyone’s like, why are you guys are having such a problem? This this person is so kind, this person is so sweet, and they’re not seeing what’s going on behind closed doors. They’re not seeing the manipulation, they’re not seeing the lies. They’re not seeing the poison dripping that they’re doing. They’re not seeing the anger so.

So covert narcissists are not okay. Not even with their own anger. So, when their anger comes out, it’s scary. It’s like how to explain this. It’s like this vicious.

Kris Godinez  11:27

I’m gonna say the word wrong. I think it’s vitriol, vitriol, this vicious vitriol that just comes flying out of them. And they’re, they’re passive, aggressive, like nobody’s business. So, their passive aggressiveness is just nasty. It’s just, you know, snide little comments, snide little, you know, getting it. And it’s always done in private, so they don’t do the nastiness in front of, say, for example, their child that they’re trying to manipulate, right? So now it’s a case of He Said, She Said, between the couple of Look, your mother did this, this, this and this, and a child going no, she couldn’t have blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Do you see where I’m going with that. it’s terrifying. It’s terrifying, because if they get that much power and control over their child, it’s gonna blow the marriage up. It will blow the marriage. And, and when it’s not just in mother in laws, you’re gonna find covert narcissists, everywhere. So these are the ones that do the biting nasty, hit and run, screw yous, passive aggressive.

You know, like, I’m so sorry, I’m describing your parents. Good lord. Like you just described my parents. I’m like, I’m sorry. That’s terrible. I’m sorry. Because it is terrible. Because they’re awful. They’re awful. The covert narcissists are awful, because you’ve got all of the public out there going, Oh, you’re mother’s such a saint or Oh, your father’s such a saint. And you’re sitting there going, Oh, hell, no, they’re not. Have you seen them behind closed doors? You want to hear some of the things that they’ve said? Do you see where I’m going with that? So covert narcissists are harder to unmask, I think than the overt and the communal, because the overt and communal are pretty like out there, you know what I’m saying? And they can’t really maintain very long, the comer ones seem to be able to maintain the mask a little bit longer, mainly because I think they keep bouncing between the game playing and closed doors. So they’re not getting that societal, you can’t be doing that. You shouldn’t be doing that. Stop doing that, right? So they’re not getting the societal, you know, mind your P’s and Q’s kind of thing. Plus, the fact they slip into the victim. So, it’s like they bounce. It’s like you’re watching this. Because remember, narcissists emotionally are operating on a level of maybe on a good day, if the wind is blowing in the right direction on a Tuesday, maybe a four year old, maybe. And so, when they flip into the victim, it’s very much a childlike, childish, not childlike, childish, you know, Why does this always happen to me? Why is this going on? I’m innocent, I don’t deserve that, you know, and they do they sound like a six-year-old or a four-year-old or whatever. And, of course, what does that do to every single Empath that’s around them? Oh, you poor thing. I’m so sorry. How can I help what’s wrong? How can we make this better? You know, and then everybody around them starts giving them attention, and everybody around them starts bending over backwards. And of course, what is the narcissist doing? They’re sitting there going, I got what I wanted! I got what I wanted! Yeah, because that’s what they wanted. They wanted the attention and healthy, normal person does not do that if they need attention. They just want to like go yo, I need attention.

Kris Godinez  15:03

You know, so but like, with a narcissist with a with a with a covert narcissist, they play games, and they play these childish games, and they play this vicious tit for tat. So, if they feel oh my lord, if they feel that a family member has offended them in some way, or you know, their son or their daughter has offended, or their daughter in law, or their son in law has offended them in some way, they will do tit for tat. So, if you don’t ask how high when they say jump, they will double down on the lying to other family members, to the spouse to the whatever, in order to make you the bad guy. And in order to make you suffer. Because let’s face it, if you look at any of these narcissists, any and all of them, they are all suffering they are in because they are suffering, not in the sense that they get it, obviously, because if you know most people when they’re suffering, they’re like, Oh, my foot hurts. Maybe I should stop slamming the door on it, you know. But with Narcissists, it’s like they keep slamming the door demanding that the door move. You know, it’s like they never take responsibility for them slamming the door on themselves. Does that make sense? I hope that was a good analogy. So they’re suffering, they’re suffering, they’re suffering and out of that suffering out of their suffering, they want everyone else and their dog to suffer because they are A holes. So forgot to turn the sound off. Um, so okay. So they’re suffering they want everybody else to suffer. But specifically, and, and to the point…They want power and control but they’re going to try to have oh, what’s the word? palpable culpability, like they they can they can, they can deny the alibi because they’ve got an alibi like, I would never do that. I’m the nicest thing ever, you know, so yeah, so dealing with a covert narcissist is a little bit more difficult because I do think it takes a little bit longer for them to have the mask slip fully. And once it does, though, you, you what is seen cannot be unseen. What is heard, cannot be unheard.

And I think what happens to a lot of us is that we get hit with the covert narcissist. And of course, they’re like a tidal wave of love bombing in the beginning, right? Because that’s what narcissists do. And then we get lulled into this false sense of security, and then by the time they finally drop their masks, we’re like, no, no, there’s no they’re having a bad day. You know? That’s no, they’re okay, you know, eh? I suddenly turned Canadian It’s like, they’re having a bad day. I couldn’t possibly be them. No, it’s and it takes a while of repetition of the bad behavior before it finally sinks in like, you know, a ton of bricks going, mother Clucker they’re a covert narc. Holy. Oh my god, do you see where I’m going with that? So it does, it hits us like, like getting broadsided at a four way stop. You know, it’s like you didn’t see it coming. Even though you could kind of see it coming but because of their previous behavior, you really kind of couldn’t see it coming. Does that make sense? So they do the nicey nicey nicey nicey nicey nicey thing and then the mask slips. Oh boy, the the hit and run screw us and the passive aggressive and the just nasty. So really quickly, I want to hit how much time? Do I have? 10 minutes. Okay, before I hit the questions.

Okay, so that is what covert narcissist do and that is why they’re so hard to covert, they’re hidden, they’re hidden. That’s what covert means. Overt means it’s over over here you can see it, covert means it’s hidden. And that’s why they’re so hard to see initially unless you know what to look for. And that’s why they’re so damaging. Because they’ve got the wool pulled over so many people’s eyes and as they get older, they are less able to maintain, they’re less able to keep up the nicey, nicey whole thing and as they age, again, nursing homes are filled with these people and they do things to get attention they harm themselves they do self-harm, but not in a way that’s going to kill them or leave any permanent thing but enough to get sympathy. So that’s what I see a lot of the older covert narcissist doing kind of thing. And again, it’s tough for the kids with a covert narcissist parent because when they realize it, and they try to tell people what happens. The people around go, oh, no, that no, no, that’s they’ve never done that to me.

Kris Godinez  19:56

Okay, if a child tells me that somebody’s doing something really horrible, I’m gonna believe the child. You know, it just it boggles the mind when people go, Well, they’ve never done that to me, okay, well, but they don’t, they don’t just… if they treated everybody like dirt, then everybody would be like, go pound sand, have a nice day, and when I say have a nice day, I mean, go pound sand. You know what I’m saying. So, they don’t treat everybody like you, they treat the people closest to them that love them, like dirt. Because they can because they’ve gotten away with it. And so the thing that I would say is that if you’re dealing with a narcissistic in law of any kind, cut them off at their knees, get into couples counseling with your spouse, so that your spouse understands fully the danger, like seriously, this is dangerous, not just to the to the child, but it’s dangerous to the relationship, the marital relationship, and get with a good trauma therapist and somebody that can explain to the spouse exactly what’s going on. Oftentimes, with these covert female narcissists with the mother in laws, what they really want is to make the child, divorce the spouse and come home and take care of them.

Kris Godinez  21:11

That’s what they really want. That’s their goal. That’s that’s their whole endgame. Now, they’ll never outwardly admit to that. But that’s their whole end game. And they relish when the couple is having arguments, because well look at that, oh, they’re arguing, oh, good, you know, they relish that stuff. Whereas a healthy normal person A would not get involved in somebody else’s relationship, and B, would not want an adult child to have to come home to take care of them, you know what I’m saying?

So, um, so what you want to do is you want to, as soon as you can get you and your spouse or your spouse alone into therapy, because they need to understand what this parent is doing his parent is, is, what’s the word I’m looking for? A snake, a brown recluse, a black widow, they’re sneaky, they hide, and then they strike, you know what I’m saying. And so the child of the narcissist may not be fully aware, they may have some sort of inkling that they don’t like that particular parent, they may have some sort of inkling that something’s off. But they may not get the depth of the betrayal that this person is doing on their marriage, on their self-esteem, on their agency on their whatever. So um, yeah, so you want to cut them off, cut them off, cut off the covert narcissist, get them out of your life, this is going to have to be a deal breaker if you’ve got an in law that is interfering in your relationships. That is, you know, controlling your spouse and is, you know, lying about you than Houston, you got a big ass problem! You need to get into couples counseling. And first make sure that this person, the spouse is willing to go work on themselves and willing to confront the family of origin. Because remember, that’s a terrifying proposition. When you finally go, oh, my gosh, my mom really didn’t have my back, my dad really didn’t have my back, and having to process all that inner child stuff. So, you are really going to have to get with a really good trauma therapist to work on your marriage to strengthen your marriage, and then your spouse is going to need to be an individual and probably you’re going to need to be an individual. So, there is that and then what you do is you just put them off.

So, every time the covert narcissist is like, oh, I want to come live with you. Nope, sorry, we got trips planned, or whatever. In this case, it’s okay to do a white lie seriously, because you do not want this person living with you for any amount of time because as soon as they come back into the system, guess what they’re going to be doing again, same old thing that they’ve done every single time. So, you just want to be like, Nope, sorry, that’s not gonna work. We got houseguests. We’re traveling we’re you know, whatever. So um, and especially when they get to the point of Geriatric that’s when they started going. Well, I want to live with you. Oh, hell no. Hell no. Absofreakinglutely not! Nope, sorry. You’ve got medical needs that I cannot handle. We need to make sure that somebody can handle them. There you go. Simple to the point, you know. So that is how you deal with that.

I need to get to the other two before so Okay, so that’s covert narcissist. Those are the games they play with that they play the victim play the victim play that nicey nicey play the victim. So, with the overt narcissist, I just want to touch on these other two with the overt narcissist their game playing is mostly intimidation, like out in the open, intimidation, bullying out in the open bully. You know, if you don’t do what I want I’m going to fill in the blank, you know, I’ll sue you, I’ll hit you, I’ll hurt you or, you know, whatever. They’re, they’re out there. So the overt narcissists will tell you exactly what they’re going to do. You just have to listen. So, I again I have been watching signs of psychopath on the ID channel and I’ve been watching dangerous women I love thos two shows. And when they’re, I don’t like dangerous women as much as I like signs of a psychopath because they’ve got the the psychiatrists that kind of chime in and are like, did you see this? Did you hear this? I don’t believe this. Yeah. And I’m like that, but um, in signs of a psychopath, that a lot of these, a lot of these psychopaths just point blank said exactly what they were going to do. And I’ve seen that with narcissists. You know, they’ll say things like, you know, I feel sorry for my family and friends. Okay, why? And then, because they’ve said too much. And they knew they said too much. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, it’s like they this is, it’s like the playbook. It’s nowhere no matter where you are in the world, they all do the same thing. So, the older ones are the ones that are more likely to spill the beans and point blank tell you what I’m, you know what I’m going to do? Kind of thing. Um, the covert ones. Nicey, nicey. You know, hit and run, screw yous that whole thing.

The communal It’s okay? So the communal narcissists use the guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, so think of it this way. coverts use the guilt as well, because they play the victim. Right? But it’s, it’s more the guilt with the victimhood. Does that make sense? So those, those two are kind of interlocked together the guilt with the victimhood. You know, poor me, why does everything happen to me this whole thing, feel sorry for me, you should feel guilty, you’re not here taking care of me, blah, blah, blah, right? With the overts. It’s bullying, it’s out out in the open, I am going to fill in the blank, you know, with whatever nastiness that they’re going to do, or I feel sorry for my family and friends, or, you know, they say exactly what they’re going to do with the communal narcissist it is guilt, but it is obligation and fear, right fear, obligation, guilt, and it’s mixed with the religious stuff. So, I’m going to make you feel obligated, I’m gonna make you feel guilty. And it’s all religious stuff. And they’re hiding behind whatever religious tenets that they’re claiming to represent. So, um, so yeah, they all play these different games. So, all of them do the fear, obligation and guilt, they just do it in slightly different ways, they do. So, with the covert narcissist, you want to be on the lookout for somebody who is too good to possibly be believed. And remember, they never take responsibility for a damn thing ever. It is always somebody else’s fault. And this is true of all of the types of narcissism, it’s always somebody else’s fault.

Kris Godinez  27:40

With the covert, it’s the nicey, nicey nicey, hit and run screw yous victimhood, but it’s never their fault. They never take responsibility. Well, so and so told me if I did that, this wouldn’t happen. Well, who are you listening to? You know, do you see where I’m going with that? With the overts it’s bullying, it’s out in the open, it’s intimidation, it’s, um, you know, I’m going to let it slip what I’m going to do to you, and they do all the time, with the communal narcissists, and yet the overts use fear, obligation and guilt as well. But it’s, it’s out in the open with the communal narcissist, it’s the guilt with the religious thing. Well, you’re not going to get into heaven unless you do everything I tell you, unless you give me all your money. You know, that’s basically what a communal narcissist does Jim Jones, any of those religious cults, you know, they’re using that fear, obligation, guilt. So really, what you’re looking for is any relationship, any any any any relationship, whether it’s parental units, whether it’s a boss, whether it’s a romantic relationship, whether it’s a friend, coworkers, whatever, if anyone is doing hit and run screw yous, using fear using obligation or using guilt to keep you in a relationship with them. That is a ginormous, red flag. So as soon as you figure out whether they’re overt or covert or communal, as soon as you figure out who and what they are, and as soon as you see them… run, do not walk to the nearest exit, it does not get better. It doesn’t.

And if you’re in a co worker situation, you figure out that one of these coworkers is one of these covert narcissists. You’re going to get hit with a smear campaign. Absolutely. But they’re going to do it in such a way that they’re going to try to make you look crazy if you say anything, because that’s what these mother Cluckers do. So yeah, so if you can get away from them. You can you know, move departments, you can change jobs, you can whatever. So yeah, they’re they don’t, they don’t get better, they get worse and they are vindictive. Oh, my God. I mean, all narcissists tend to be vindictive, that I find the communal nurses or not, the communal covert nurses are way deadlier in a way because they are covert because they’re playing, you know, nicey, nicey. And, you know, I wouldn’t hurt a fly meanwhile, they’re like, you know, stabbing you in the back kind of thing. So, yeah, they’re, um, yeah, they’re they’re there. There’s something, they’re something else.

So yes, the covert narcissists are kind of a little more difficult to catch on to initially. But once they’re mask slip, there’s no, there’s no going back because you see them clearly. And the only thing you can do is get away, get away, cut them off, go, no contact, if you’re with a spouse, and the spouse has been influenced by the parent, encourage them to go to therapy. And of course, the covert narcissist is going to try to stop the spouse from going to therapy, and you cannot… that your relationship will not survive if that happens. So hopefully, the spouse is strong enough to not overshare things with the covert parent, and to go to therapy and start working on themselves. So hopefully, that’s what will happen. If, however, you get into therapy and stuff is getting back to your abusive mother-in-law or father-in-law. You need to be done. You need to be done; it’s not going to get better. They’re siding with the abuser and they’re not ever going to not side with the abuser. Does that make sense? So, unless they work on themselves, and if they’re not willing to work on themselves, then what is the point? Does that make sense? So, there that is, okay, let’s hit the questions shall we Dun, dun, dun, okay.

Does anyone ever read your book and say, Oh, that career isn’t for me? Yeah, actually, people do. Because I think people have a really skewed sense of what therapy is. So, and I talk about it in the book, you know, because a lot of people, they think that all we do is just sit on our hind ends and just listen to people all day. They’re not seeing all of the paperwork, all of the phones to help phone calls to the police. All of the CPS calls, all of the welfare checks all.

Kris Godinez  32:05

There’s a lot that goes into this job. There really is. Yeah, some people do read my book. And they’re like, oh, hell now. And I’m like, Yeah, well, you’ve got it’s it is, like I said, being a therapist, being a social worker, being a counselor of any kind, really, is a calling. It’s a calling. You need to love it. You do. It’s like, if you don’t love it, get out of my profession. That’s all I gotta say. So, if you’re not like excited in the morning to wake up and go see your clients get out of my profession, because when I wake up in the morning, I look forward to seeing my clients, I worry about them. I do. I like my clients. I do. So yeah, some people read my book, and they’re like, oh, yeah, no, like, Okay, well, you need to figure out what else you’d like to do. Because this is the reality of being a therapist. So yeah, that does happen. It does. But you know, I figure it’s better that way than somebody go through all of the training, and all of the work and all of the heartache, and oh, my gosh, all of the schooling and all of the money involved in that and then get into the real profession, and then be like, Oh, this isn’t what I thought it was gonna be and then be miserable. And then, you know, not be good for their clients. So, yeah, so yeah, if you know somebody that’s thinking about becoming a therapist, so you want to be a therapist, have them read it, because it’s basically lays it out. It’s like, this is what the master’s degree is like, this is what being in private practice is like, this is what being in a agency is like, this is what you know, so yeah. All right. That was a good question.

Um, how do I stop gaslighting myself? Oh, into mom is a good person. She’s just misunderstood. And my ex had a reason to cheat. I don’t give enough in the relationship. Oh, Bunny. Okay. Take a deep breath. Everybody take a deep breath. So, we are groomed. We are groomed to be in denial. It’s called cognitive dissonance. So, when incoming information doesn’t match what our abusers have been telling us, it’s called cognitive dissonance and it sends us into this tailspin of second guessing and oh, well, no, they must. They know they really do have my back. Oh, no, they really are a good person. Oh, well, no, they cheated because of me. What? No, stop. Deep breath everybody deep breath. So, when they do that, when they when they show us who they really are. The little kid inside it’s little it’s little you it’s little kid. It’s literally an inner child. Okay, especially with a mom going, Oh, well, you know, they just have a hard life. Oh, well, you know, that we do we make excuses for our abuser. We do. We do. You know, because we can’t. It’s really hard to… It’s really hard to accept that the person who supposedly should be loving us the most hates us the most. And that’s what these narcissistic parents do. And it’s really hard for that inner child to get it’s not them. It’s not the inner child. It’s not you. It’s not you, you did nothing wrong. So, getting back to the question, Hey, hang on, um okay. Ah, let’s see, how do I stop myself from gaslighting mom is a good person. She’s just misunderstood. We have to answer that part first. So, what I want you to do is I want you to write down all of the things she’s ever done to you. Okay. And I want you to be very clear that none of those had anything, like literally anything to do with you. Every behavior that she had, that was harmful, hurtful, whatever, was a choice. And here’s the next question. Has she done anything to make amends for that? Is she in therapy? Is she working on herself? Is she doing anything to make herself a better person? If the answer to that is No, stop, stop. Hello, little one. Hello. She’s not just misunderstood. She is now actively choosing to be abusive. You know, it’s like, look, lots of people have come from abusive backgrounds, lots of people, they don’t all go on to become abusers.

Kris Godinez  36:33

So, I don’t care what the person’s background is. If they’re using that as the excuse and I’m wondering, Where did you hear that from? Oh, she’s just misunderstood. Did mom say that a lot. Oh, I’m just misunderstood. I’m just nobody understands me. I had a rough childhood. Okay, join the frickin club lady. Do you see where I’m going with that? Everybody’s had a rough childhood that has been raised by a narcissist. We don’t go on to become abusers. So, what is you know? Is she getting help? No. Okay, now it’s a choice. Okay. She’s not just misunderstood. She is actively and intently choosing to be abusive. This isn’t just an oops I abused somebody this is a I thought it out and I’m doing it because I refuse to go get help. So that’s how you stop gaslighting yourself with that please, please please CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. Read it, work it get the disease to please by Harriet breaker. Okay, this is all about boundaries. It’s about the codependency because there’s a little bit of codependency going on. Okay. The self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, this is also a self-esteem issue. Because we don’t make people who love themselves do not make excuses for their abuser. Now, the second half of that question is, my ex had a reason to cheat. I don’t I don’t give enough in the relationship. The only people that cheat are people generally that have a personality disorder. And they’re the ones that love to point to the spouse that they’re cheating on and go You made me. You made me cheat. You made me do this. You made me hit you. You made me lie to you. You made me you made you. You. You You You guns, okay. No, it has not yet the relationship was that rocky? Why didn’t they suggest you guys go to couples counseling? Right. But since we already know this person is probably an abuser based on the fact that they’re cheating. And you’re feeling like it’s all your fault. I would say don’t go to couples counseling because that’s very dangerous to go to couples counseling with an abuser, okay, because they’ll twist it, they’ll try to manipulate the therapist, they’ll try to make it on you. They’ll try to you know, fill in the blank. So, when somebody cheats that is on them, that is on them. That is absolutely 110% on them. So, get with a good trauma therapist, start working on your own self-esteem and your own boundaries. What is your list of deal breakers? What will you not put up with from anybody? And on that list should be lying, cheating, stealing, gaslighting, rewriting history, disrespect, name calling. Hmm. thinking what else? Well, those are the major ones. Yeah. So, if this person is doing any of that behavior, buh bye. Bye bye now. Buh bye. We’re done bye because they just crossed over your back break your boundary list your list of deal breakers, the it’s like if they cross over a deal breaker be done. Because they’re showing you who they are. That makes sense. Okay, so get with a good trauma therapist.

Okay, um, wha does my covert narc make herself dependent on others on purpose. My narc mother was dependent on others her whole life pretended to be helpless, and never do anything for herself. Yes, this is part of the victimhood so learned helplessness. So, this is what drives me crazy about these mothers in laws these mothers these men, these women because men can be covert narcissists to where they’re just like, I can’t do it. Like I don’t know how you’ll have to do it for me. Oh, puhleeze really? So, they do this whole learned helplessness I can’t do it you need to do it for me and what you’re not so what most empaths hear when they hear that is Oh sure. I’ll do it for you no problem right because you don’t want I’m capable I can do this. I can help you out. What you’re not hearing is the power and control play that was just made. Oh, you need to do it for me. And then you do it for them. So now what are they doing internally? Look what I made them I got them to me I wonder how much more I can get them to do for me.

Kris Godinez  41:04

That’s why they do the learned helplessness. It drives me crazy. It really does it just it’s like and then when people fall for it and given to them, and you know Oh you poor thing and let me help you. I’m like Stop. Just stop this is a game this is this is BS. This is a game,… stop. Well, but they’re old and they’re this and they’re that did it stop. I know plenty of 90 year olds that can actually program electronics. I do. I know plenty plenty of 80 year olds that can do stuff around the house I know plenty of do you see where I’m going with that. And I’m not saying now if they obviously they have disability obviously there’s things that they cannot do. But in a lot of times with these covert narcissists do is they play the victim and they do learn helplessness. And it’s like this so here’s the here’s the spouse or the kid or whoever who’s functional. Here’s the covert narcissist Oh, you’ve got to do this for me. You’ve got to do that for me. I just I can’t you’ll have to think for the both of us I swear to God If I hear one more movie that says there I’m gonna slap somebody. So, you know this whole I can’t think for myself you need to think for me, I can’t do this. You need to do it for me. And it’s a power and control issue. You’ve got to understand every single game that these mother Cluckers do is a power and control issue. They’re looking to see if they have control over you. They’re looking to see if they can manipulate you they’re looking to see if they can make you clean up after them.

Oh, okay, here’s a great one. So crazy crazy covert narcissist will often and they’ve got a thing with feces. I don’t know what the hell that is. But they’ve got this obsession with their bodily functions a lot of them especially the older ones. And they will do things like smear the bathroom with feces and then demand that the spouse clean it up or that the kids clean it up and oh I can’t do it. I’m just so weak and I’m so old or I’m you know I oh no you need to clean it up. It’s a power issue guys cleaning up poo from an adult is a power issue especially when there’s no physical issues going on. There’s no reason that the entire bathroom should be smeared floor to ceiling with feces. Do you see where I’m going with that and a lot of them have got feces issues it’s really this done don’t get that one but yeah, a lot of them have got the feces feces issues and they want their children or their spouse to clean it up we’ll get in there and clean it up I’m not going to do it you do it

Kris Godinez  43:32

I’m sorry what? You just smeared your feces all over the mirror and now you want me to clean it up? How ‘bout you get your old sorry ass in there and do it you know I mean it’s just, it’s just and there’s no there’s no Alzheimer’s or anything like that dementia anything like that going on. So, let’s be clear. This was a power and control move on the part of the covert narcissist. So yeah, it they are a special kind of cray cray. I’ll tell you that much. Um, yes, they pretend to be helpless. And they never do anything for themselves because again, they think that if they play the victim all the time, that they’ll never be alone that they’ll have a constant supply. It’s really all about supply. So again, I want you to extrapolate you know what we’ve been talking about it’s like what a narcissist needs? Supply! When do they need it? Yesterday! And so how do they secure the supply? In any way they can. So overt narcissist, you know, charming flashing the money, you know, outgoing this out the other thing, communal narcissists, I am the way in the light. I know the answers you must give me all your money. You know, that’s how they secure their supplies. Covert narcissists, play the victim, play the victim, play the victim learned helplessness, play the victim play the victim, because then they know that there’s always going to be a sucker out there that’s going to be like, Oh, you poor thing. You don’t know how to do X, Y and Z. Let me do it for you. You know, and that’s why I’m saying you I cannot enable these people, you cannot enable these people because if you give them an inch, they will take three and a half miles. Seriously. All right, let’s see, what is the next question?

How do I deal with the guilt of letting go of toxic parents in their old age and move on with my own life? Okay, get with a good trauma therapist serious as a heart attack. If you have let go of toxic parents, and you’ve gone no-contact and they are aging, they will often do the medical Hoover, oh, I’m dying, you need to come see me, I miss you blah, blah, blah. You know, and you just don’t respond. It’s like, I’m sorry. But if these abusers wanted to have family and friends around them, in their old age, how ‘bout they not abuse people. How about they act like decent human beings? How about they be kind, how about they be, you know, thinking of somebody else other than themselves. So, they use the guilt, fear, obligation, guilt, to manipulate and to control, you have nothing to feel guilty about, you have nothing to feel guilty about. If you choose not to be around them. That is your prerogative. If you were not related to these people, would you have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly, act accordingly. You know, I think a lot of people go to these deathbed, you know, suppose it deathbed visitations hoping that the parent will be kind or apologetic or loving, or, you know, some last nugget of adult wisdom, but you’re not dealing with an adult, you know, and you’re not dealing with somebody who’s empathic and you’re not dealing with somebody who’s kind and you’re not dealing with somebody who is loving, you’re not, you know, and a lot of times unfortunately, these kids go and when I say kids, I mean adult kids 50/60s you know, adult kids go to see the parent on their supposed deathbed and what is the parent do spews vitriol all over them. You know, and it was just like a final reminder of okay, yeah, go pound sand. We’re done. You know, but it was a last screw you from the parent. And that to me is just yeah, hope they get what they deserve. So, you know what I’m saying? So, either this this lifetime or the next so because that’s that’s a heinous thing to do. Death is hard enough for the living okay. It’s hard enough for the survivors.

Kris Godinez  48:01

And so when you have a parent who is tit for tat, the Tallionic, nasty arrogance, narcissistic, whatever, and they just want their last screw you to use so that you’ll feel bad. How dare they? They’re scum in my in my opinion, absolute scum. So yeah, just really think twice about having anything to do with them….. that if you were not related to them, would you have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly. It doesn’t matter how old they are. They have made their bed they can go lie in it that seriously that’s how I feel. So, there it is. All right, get with a good trauma therapist work on the guilt because you don’t need to be around people that are toxic.

Okay, um, how can an overt narcissist and a covert narc end up in a situation where they abuse each other in a family relationship? Okay, so this is how I want you to think about it overt narcissists, all right, the real bombastic bullies, you know loud, obnoxious, you know, that kind of thing. Live to chew up, to eat covert narcissists and borderlines That’s their favorite meal… swear to God because they can you know, the victim thing for the covert narcissist and the incredibly sensitive thing for the borderline so they eat them up they eat them up and they spit them out and they love it. They love it. The abusers love it so the covert narcissist and the overt narcissist oftentimes do get together you will often see this in divorce cases so you know the empath divorces the narcissist they go to live their life suddenly the narcissist is with this other narcissist usually the covert, right a minor a little bit minor narcissist, right, there’s minor, minor and bunny ears. So, they do that and then they either both turn on the spouse or the spouse is able to get the heck away, and there’s nothing for them to continue to throw at them. And so then they turn on each other And it’s just this drama filled drama, drama filled Academy Award winning scream fest, you know, pointing fingers. I’m the victim You did this to me bla bla bla bla bla and it’s supply. It is supply for both of them because they are cray cray. Let’s be clear technical term. cray cray. They’re cray cray that remember the narcissist, the Narcissists worst nightmare is being forgotten. The Narcissists worst nightmare is being ignored. That’s why gray rock is so wonderful and that’s why they hate it. So, yeah, the narcissists worst fear is being ignored, forgotten and having no supply. So, when this negativity is going back and forth, and they’re eating each other up, this is like, this is their buffet this is, this is their supply this… they love negative attention they do. You know, they say they don’t, but they do they love it. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing. So, it’s giving them supply. So, the raging the hating the you know, that whole thing. I mean, it’s just crazy. You know, my dad and his first wife were divorced for 45 years. Okay, they sent each other hate letters back and forth for 45 years. I mean, just Hello. Get on with your life, you know, crazy accusing each other of stuff and yelling at each other and they kept responding. And they wouldn’t stop. Neither one of them would stop neither one of them would let the other one have the last word. You know, and of course it was supply for both of them. It was supply for both of them. They, on some level, really enjoyed it. Of course, my dad would talk about oh my god. You know, that whole thing. So? Yeah. So that’s how they get together. And that’s what happens. And that’s actually the best case scenario. I actually like it when a person divorces and they leave. And there’s no other connection. They can’t throw anything. And now the ex is with another narcissist and they’re just like, Okay, well, you get what you deserve. So there’s that.

Kris Godinez  52:20

Okay. Or in a family situation. Same thing. They, again, they gravitate, because then they can, they can feed off each other. The covert narcissist gets to be the victim, the overt narcissist gets to be a bully. And it’s a cluster clock, if you know what I’m saying. So there it is. Okay. Ah, okay.

I have been how are we doing on time? Okay. I have been in my mother’s. I have been my mother’s mother, ever since I was a little kid. How do I detach from that role that I played for years and stop and Adel, enabling my mother’s word behaviors? Okay. It is difficult, but not impossible. So, and I’ve talked about this in other videos, so there was one I did on parentification. I don’t know how long ago I did that one but go back through and look and see if you can find that particular video. So parentification is where the parents abdicate. They just, they’re immature. They’re narcissists are disordered in some way, shape, or form. And they turn over all of the parenting to us as kids, and we ended up being the parent and they end up being the kid, usually a teenager, you know, like a teenager, they’re like a teenager. And so we’re having to constantly be the parent. And, you know, like, they have no common sense. Like, I swear to God, they have no common sense. And so, things that seem like an obvious, you have to explain that to them, you know, and so they throw us into the role of their parents, they get to be the kid, we’re the parent, and that will have been throughout our entire lives. So um, the way to step out of that is to work on boundaries. You’re not the parent, you’re not! You owe them nothing, fear, obligation, guilt, you owe them nothing. If you’re feeling fearful, obligated or guilty. That is a toxic relationship. Get with a good trauma therapist, get with a good trauma therapist and start untangling that very enmeshed relationship. Does that make sense? And that is what these parents do is they enmesh their child so the child will never leave. So, the child will always feel obligated, so the child will always feel guilty so that the child will always come back and take care of them. Scary. Scary. Seriously, scary, truly scary.

Kris Godinez  54:53

So, I’m there is that okay? All right. So, working on that you’re going to need a trauma therapist you need gonna need to untangle that relationship. I would definitely read CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. disease to please by Harriet braiker, inner child, any of the inner child workbooks. I don’t care which one grab one start working on it. Lots of people have liked the Luccia Cappiochoni book, its coloring book kind of thing and they found it very helpful. Okay, you really you need to disentangle yourself un enmesh yourself. But that’s going to take a trauma therapist to help you go back and figure out when did this first start happening? How old were you? How old are you when you are fearful of letting go of that parent because that’s usually the inner child is what’s stopping us from disentangling and going, Nope, this is your problem. So, get with a good trauma therapist. Get the inner child workbook any inner child workbook I don’t care which one, if it’s Katherine Taylor one great if it’s Luccia Cappiochoni get that one. The get an inner child workbook and start processing this particular issue. Get the disease to please by Harriet Braiker for boundaries and codependency and also get the self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi to work on your self-esteem because you have a right to not be parentifide you do. So yeah, that’s that’s the best way to start doing that. And learning to say no, and meaning it so and I’ve done a couple of videos on that one too. So, learning to say no, when meaning it, you know, you just, you start gradually, and you just start saying no more and more and more and more and more, and they’re not going to like it, they’re going to act out guarantee guarantee they’re going to act out. That’s why it’s good to have a trauma therapist to help you kind of work through I think this next one is going to be our last question.

Okay. How do you deal with the guilt trip from elderly narcs that use the fact they could die any moment against you? I’m sorry, I laugh because they all do that. Okay. So, any relationship that makes you feel fearful, obligated, guilty, I’m gonna keep so I’m just going to keep repeating until this kind of sinks in, okay. Any relationship that makes you feel fearful, obligated or guilty? Is a toxic relationship. In a healthy relationship, you don’t have to keep reminding somebody that you might die. Does that make sense? Nobody’s guaranteed life guys, nobody, we could get hit by a meteor tomorrow. Nobody’s guaranteed it. But what I find is, is that the disordered ones are the ones that are like, I’m dying here. You You don’t care, I’m dying, victim, victim victim, you know, because in a healthy relationship, you don’t have to keep reminding your kids or anybody else that you’re dying. You fricken a know it, you know, but narecissists cry wolf. So often they really do, especially the covert ones. That you know, eventually it’s kind of like, yeah, you’re dying, whatever. No, you’re not, you know, do you see where I’m going with that? So, if they’re using guilt to try to make you come visit them or to see them again, here’s the question to ask yourself, if you were not related to these people, would you all have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly. So, the death Hoover is what I like to call it, or the the I’m dying Hoover, I’m sick Hoover. All of those are Hoover’s So beware of that. Ask yourself the question if I were not related to them, would I have anything to do with an if the answer is no act accordingly. Okay, kids, you guys have a great week. Really good questions. Thank you. You guys. Have a great week. Drink plenty of water. Take good care of yourselves. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

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