We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

Throwback Thursday: 10-03-2021 DEPENDENT VS CODEPENDENT
In this episode of We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez, Kris discusses the difference between Dependent Personality Disorder and Codependency.


Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  00:27

All right. So, announcements. Alright, so Suzanna and I have decided to hold off on touring again. Thank you COVID. So, we’re kind of trying to figure that all out. However, we are still plotting and planning to do a seminar at some point it is either going to be in Scottsdale or in Palm Springs. I’ve got a massage therapist, Diane, who was on the show who’s very, very interested in doing the seminar as well. We’ve got other people that are interested in doing the seminar. Oh, hello, India. My goodness. So um, hopefully I’m hoping we’ll see how the winter goes. And if in the spring, it’s looking better. And if that antiviral pill makes a difference. That would be great. Then we’re going to look at doing a seminar probably a Friday night, Saturday morning or Saturday day would be all the seminars. And then thank you Benny. Um, then Sunday we would do the goodbye breakfast and all that sort of good stuff and I don’t like those seminars where you can’t actually sit and talk to people so I’m very much like if you went on the cruise with me and John you know, we did breakfast with you guys. We hung out we had lunch we you know, because I like talking to people and I like hearing what’s going on. So that’s kind of my way of doing a seminar. It’s like, hey, let’s you know, no host lunch, breakfast, whatever, we’ll go talk and we’ll do the seminars and hang out and answer all your questions. So, at some point, it is going to happen and it’s going to be more than just me and Suzanna. I think it’s gonna be me, Susanna, Diane Brown, who’s a massage therapist. I’m trying to get Marsha Diane who is also a therapist. She’s very spiritual to do that. So, we’ll, we’ll see how that goes.

All right, speaking of Suzanna, You’re Still That Girl Suzanna Quintana at Suzannaquintana.com. She’s my girl because she’s awesome. So, this is a great book for recovering from a narcissistic abusive relationship. There is Shahida’s book, which I just I love her, Shahida Arabi The Highly Sensitive Person’s Guide to Dealing with Toxic People. I love this book because she has all sorts of suggestions for journaling and things to do to work, you know, cognitively work out the abuse. So, this is a great book. If you are going through a divorce, you need to get Splitting by Bill Edie and Randy Krieger. Because this will tell you, I’m running out of room Good Lord, I’m just gonna put this on the floor. Hang on.

Kris Godinez  03:22

This will tell you everything that your abusive ex is going to pull during the legal process. So, this is a great book if you’re thinking of divorcing or if you’re in the middle of a divorce, or if you’re in denial, and you’re going no, they would never do X, Y and Z. Yeah, they will, they will do X, Y and Z, I know they’re gonna do X, Y and Z, these guys know they’re going to do X, Y and Z you need to know they’re going to do X, Y and Z. So, this is a great book. If you are interested in my books, You Can Lead a Horse to Water But You Can’t Make ‘em Cha-Cha why some people get into abusive relationships and stay and other people get out and then my first book What’s Wrong with Your Dad… got about four hours. So, this is about my journey and kind of like why I became a therapist. So right there also to let you know I just got my headshots done for the new book which is called So You Want To Be A Therapist. So that’s coming out soon I just got the headshots done for that I’m going to be doing the audio for it in November. So, the hardcopy book is probably going to be coming out sometime this month and the audio book will be coming out sometime in November, December that’s the evil plan and I’m working on the fourth book which is more along the lines of You Can Lead a Horse to Water But You Can’t Make ‘Em Cha, Cha. But this time it’s about you know finding yourself coming out of the abusive relationship and finding yourself so there is that!

Okay, so let’s dive into this. So, a lot of the times I get questions about well what’s the difference between dependent personality disorder versus being codependent Well, there’s a lot there’s, there’s, there’s a lot! So let’s go Read the DSM Let’s read what this is so dependent personality disorder and this is a cluster C okay? So, narcissism and borderline are cluster B’s, dependent personality disorder is a cluster C. So, pervasive and excessive need to be taken care of that leads to submissiveness and clinging behavior and fears of separation kind of sounds like borderline in a lot of ways beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts indicated by five or more of the following but it’s different than borderline so I just want to be very clear about that. The borderline remember, borderline personality disorder when it starts sliding down the spectrum has got traits of all the major personality disorders so they can be dependent they can be terrified of making a decision because they’re afraid of being abandoned. So um, number one has difficulty making decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others so in other words, you know a healthy normal person can walk into a store try on a pair of pants and go “Yeah, those are the ones!” or “Oh no! That makes…Lord what is happening to my butt!” You know seriously so they can make a decision not a problem it’s like Yes, I’m gonna buy these pants are good or God no. With somebody with dependent personality disorder, they need to get everybody’s opinion the sales clerk’s opinion, their friend’s, opinion, their parent’s opinion their… they can’t just walk in and just be confident in their choice of Okay, done, you know, etc. This is what I want or no, this is not what I want, etc. So they have to have an excessive amount of advice and reassurance that they’re making the right choice. Why? Because people with dependent personality disorder were probably raised by Narcissus they were probably raised by an abuser and abusers are notorious for rubbing our noses in things that we got wrong.

So, this is where avoidant personality disorder also comes in. And dependent personality disorder also comes in because if you were raised by somebody that’s constantly rubbing your nose in what you did wrong, you’re going to learn to either A. Not make a choice at all and avoid it. Or, you’re going to ask for everybody’s opinion on it to make sure you did the right choice so that you don’t get into trouble. So, there is that Okay, number two needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of his or her own life. So, they abdicate they just abdicate I can’t do this I’m a victim I can’t! I don’t have the ability I… you know, I’m not strong enough I’m not smart enough. I don’t you know, whatever. So, they abdicate they abdicate being parents, they abdicate responsibility they don’t get a job they don’t you know, it’s kind of along those lines that really bad 1930s kind of romance thing where usually the woman says I can’t think any more you have to think for both of us. What no! With a side of no and an extra helping of no and oh my God, no! So yeah, they abdicate they abdicate responsibility for most major areas of their life. Three has difficulty expressing disagreement with others now this is sounding a little bit like codependency now remember codependency is not in the DSM five it’s not it should be it’s not but it’s it’s not in there but it exists You and I have seen it we have it we see it you know we’ve had to work on it with the Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker. So, this has a little bit of the codependency and it has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because fear of loss of support or approval.

Kris Godinez  08:49

Okay, now this does not include fear of retribution because that’s what happens in abusive relationships there’s a fear of making you know waves because you know, the abuser is going to beat you harm you hurt you put you down, you know, throw you around, etc, etc, etc. So that’s a little different.

Four has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on his or her own because of a lack of self confidence in judgment or abilities, rather than a lack of motivation or energy. So oftentimes, when I work with survivors of abuse, they will be terrified of doing things on their own going out to dinner by themselves, you know, making a choice at a restaurant by themselves Why? Because the abusers oftentimes order for their targets of abuse and it gets to the point where they literally don’t know what they want. You know, they couldn’t tell you what they like what they don’t… like they’ve, they’ve abdicated so much to the abuser that they no longer know themselves. So yeah, they, they fear going and doing things by themselves. “Well, I’ll look silly. People will look at me. I can’t go to The gym by myself people will look at me!” Yeah, you can go to the gym by yourself because nobody cares trust me on that one! So one thing I did recommend to a client that was terrified of going out and, and either working out or going to a restaurant or things like that go to someplace where you are not you know in a huge room go to like you know one of those walk up stands you know a truck okay? Nobody’s going to notice that you’re by yourself there’s a lot of people out there by themselves a lot of business people go and eat at the food trucks etc. etc. etc. or if you’re terrified of working out and you’re afraid of people looking at you do an exercise where people are not looking at you. Yoga. Nobody’s looking at you, trust me on that one. You’re we’re too busy trying not to kill ourselves putting ourselves into downward dog especially if you’re my age. So, you know or Pilates. Pilates you’re usually on your back looking up at the ceiling and you’re not paying attention to what other people are doing you know so do things that you can do that this doesn’t start going ‘Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God! What if? What if? What if?” The truth of the matter is, is most people are so wrapped up in their own heads and their own lives, they’re not paying attention to other people, they really aren’t. I know for me when I’m doing Pilates, I’m so focused on not doing anything to harm myself that I’m not paying attention to what other people are doing I’m paying attention to you know, lifting the muscles and making sure I’m using my core and you know things like that so yeah, it’s a good idea to do something that’s going to be not… because if you go to one of those gyms, I know I’m going off on a tangent bear with me. If you go to one of those gems where it’s a meat market Yeah, they are looking at each other. Yeah, they are wearing full makeup while they’re working out on the treadmill that happened in LA all the time and I’m always sitting there going girl you’re not here for the workout Are you You’re here for a different kind of workout. Hmm. So yeah, you don’t want to, you don’t want to go to a gym like that, go to a gym where people are so focused on working out that they’re not paying attention other people don’t go to one of the meat market ones. No, no, that’s yucky. No, no.

Okay, um, number four has difficulty initiating projects. Oh, I said that one. Okay, number five, goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others to the point of volunteering to do things that are unpleasant. That does sound like a little bit like codependent so codependency we go over and above in order to get approval from whoever that we’re okay. Okay, so here’s some like the contrast and comparison there’s a little bit of codependency in this a lot not so. Um, okay, feels helpless or uncomfortable when alone we talked about that because of exaggerated fears of being unable to care for him or herself or being afraid of being made fun of because what narcissists do what do abusive parents do, they make fun of their kids. Ask me how much I like those parents. Yeah. I don’t like them at all. So yeah, they do that and then that causes people to be afraid of being made fun of urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close relationship ends

Kris Godinez  13:14

So that does happen to survivors of abuse, they get out of one relationship and without working on themselves they dive right back into another one because they cannot stand the idea of being alone with themselves because these thoughts are no bueno. So, this does sound a little bit like borderline as well, which is interesting. And you know narcissists do the same thing. They can’t stand not having a supply their reasoning is they need supply. Borderlines reasoning is they can’t stand being alone because they need that support because the thoughts are so mean to them. And dependent it’s the same thing they’re afraid of being alone. What’s, what are the thoughts? What are the thoughts?

Number eight is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of him or herself. Okay, so that’s dependent personality disorder. Now let’s talk about codependent Now if you notice, it all starts kind of you know, sounding like oh, well this sounds like borderline this sounds like narcissism this sounds like codependent, etc, etc, etc. With both borderline and narcissism. When they slide down towards the malignant end of the spectrum, it’s no longer just traits of okay? They are actively harming other people. They’re enjoying it. They’re, you know, dark triad for the Narcissists. They’re getting down to that Witch and Queen area for the borderlines, all of the personality disorders literally start over lapping and they have traits of all of them. So, it is interesting that you see similarities between those So okay, where do I want to go next? Okay, I want to….. I need to turn down the sound because it Just buzzed in my ear.

Okay um I want to go to codependency because I talked about dependent personality disorder excessive dependence on others needing to be taken care of submissive or clingy fear of having to provide self-care, lack of self-confidence, difficulty starting or doing projects, difficulty disagreeing with others, fearing disapproval, tolerance of poor or abusive treatment. When the other, when other options are available. urgent need to start a new relationship when one has ended. Okay. All right.

So, let’s go to codependent doo, doo doo. Okay, so again, I found some really cool articles. So, one is on and this is a couple of years old. This is on elephant journal and it’s called let me find the title of it. Harley Quinn and ending the stigma we have about abuse targets they say victims I like the word target. So, let’s talk about Harlequin. Harlequin is honestly one of the best examples of codependency I’ve ever seen in popular literature. Because Harlequin was a obviously character comic book character, marvelously done by Margot Robbie, she’s just amazing. If you have not seen the newest Suicide Squad, I highly recommend it. It is violent, but she’s just, she blows my mind. Anyway, she’s a great actress. Anyway, Harlequin in the comics was a psychiatrist, and she was treating the Joker at the Arkham Asylum thing. And he started getting in her head. And he started love bombing. And he started you know, telling her how great she was and how fabulous she was. And but then as soon as he knew he got her the devalue and the discard happened. And at the end of one of the arcs of the I think it was the television that the Huh, what am I trying to say the animated television show? At the end of one of the arcs of the animated television show she outdoes the Joker she’s actually smarter than he is she’s actually better guess being a villain. And she was able to pull off this this crime, you know, to kill Batman, and she was better at it than he was and you in a healthy relationship. If your partner out does you you cheer for them. You’re like, go you you’re fabulous in that relationship, because he’s obviously a psychopath, antisocial psychopath. Dark triad. Everything bad, is the Joker. When she does that  he becomes enraged and screams at her and tells her how stupid she was that she ruined it all and it was all her fault. And then he throws her out of a window. And the sad thing of it is, is that at the end of that episode, there was Harlequin and a bloodied mess on the floor on the ground, and she’s sobbing and she says I didn’t get the joke. It’s my fault. I didn’t get the joke. That’s heart breaking. And then she goes about becoming less than you know, she’s

she’s the joke now she’s she’s stupid, you know, and she allows the Joker to be the smart, brilliant mastermind, whatever.

Kris Godinez  18:26

So, it’s, it’s a codependent relationship in that she’s constantly trying to make him okay. She’s constantly trying to make sure he’s taken care of she’s constantly trying to make sure that his wants his needs, his desires, his plans, his brilliance, his you know, whatever, is all taken care of. And later on in the series, he once she’s in the hospital, he then starts sending her flowers. After he did the devalue in the discard, so he did the Hoover. So, it’s the, it’s the abuse clock all over again. So, it blew up with her, actually showing him that he wasn’t the smart one. He wasn’t the greatest thing ever that she actually had as much or more smarts than he did. Then he devalued and discarded her threw her out of a window she took all the blame. Ooooh, does this sound familiar? Current recent events you know, Gabby Pettit perhaps you know she took all the blame put it on her goes into the hospital is maybe thinking about maybe leaving him maybe you know who knows that thought might have crossed your mind. And then he starts love bombing again, sending her flowers lots and lots of flowers, lots and lots of flowers. So, the love bomb started all over again. So that is a great example of codependency and she stays, she stays with him. And it’s not because she’s, you know, a bad person or anything else like that. It’s because something in her past has informed her that this as normal This is love and that is not love! So love isn’t painful. Let me…. please get this and please share these videos with as many people as you can because if you know somebody who’s in a relationship like that they need to get Love does not hurt. Love does not hurt ever, ever! If it hurts, it is not love. It’s abuse. It’s dysfunctional. It’s toxic, it is not love. Okay, so somehow somewhere in her mind this was okay somehow somewhere she childhood stuff I don’t know. But in her mind even though she was a brilliant psychiatrist she fell for the psychopath and she became literally a different person Harley Quinn so um yeah, it’s, it’s has to do with self-esteem. People who love themselves don’t put up with that kind of abuse. And once somebody has harmed them, you know, you give them the opportunity to make amends. But if they don’t, if they’re not honest and truthful, then yeah, you’re done.

So, let’s talk about the six hallmarks of codependency Okay. Um, all right, and this is on psychology today. This is called the six hallmarks of codependency they have an excessive we have an excessive and unhealthy tendency to rescue and take responsibility for other people. And this is the biggest mistake we make when we are involved with an abuser. So just like Harlequin, oh, it’s all my fault. Just like Gabby Pettit. Oh, it’s all me, you know, we have a tendency to do that, instead of going, No, this is their stuff, this is them, we have a tendency to take on the responsibility for the emotions, for the behaviors for the actions for the whatever for their happiness. I can’t tell you the number of times I have seen adult children sit on my couch, well, no more because I’m doing everything through video now but you know, get in front of me and tell me that it was their job to care for and make sure mom was happy or dad was happy, or that the siblings were happy or that you know, they had to care take the siblings. So, codependency generally comes from different from dependent personality disorder. Codependence generally can make decisions. But the problem of it is, that every decision they make is based on how it’s going to help somebody else and not how they’re going to take care of themselves. So, we become codependent, when we have a family or a family member that is absentee, neglectful abusive, alcoholic drug addict and we end up having to care take them or we end up having to care take them, be parentifide and take care of the younger siblings. So that is where we get this codependent feeling of, I have to take care of other people, I have to do things for other people, I can’t do anything for myself. And if somebody does something for somebody who’s codependent, they immediately want to turn around and do that for them. So, it’s like they can’t just accept the gift of whatever’s being given. You know, it’s like, oh, no, no, no, no, I need to do this for you, too. Oh, no, no, no, I need to do this. No, you need to accept it and just enjoy it seriously. So that is where codependency comes from is from be parentifide, and having to care, take the parent care, take the other kids care, take other family members, etc, etc, etc. We are trying to save ourselves by saving the family. I know.

Okay, number two, derive a sense of purpose and boost the self-esteem through extreme sacrifice to satisfy the needs of others. So, we do that. So how many times has the abuser

Kris Godinez  23:56

walked in and taken something that was ours and we just let them do it? You know, because they wanted it? Oh, well, they must need it more than I do. Or they must want it more than I do. So, what I’ve seen in cases of abuse in an in a romantic relationship is the spouse the, the codependent spouse will get a bonus or an inheritance or something and the abuser will swoop in and go I want that and the codependent spouse goes okay, and hands it over. Or if the codependent spouse buys themselves something nice the abuser swoops in. How dare you and then they feel guilty. Hello, fear, obligation, guilt, fear, obligation, guilt, the fog, and then they turn around and either give that to the abuser or they go buy the abuser, something similar. Okay? Because narcissists are like two year olds, if you have something they want it too, or better. So, the codependent instead of drawing a boundary and going No, this is my inheritance that I got from my mother or my father or no, this is the bonus that I got. I’ve been working for I’ve been saving up for this thing for myself you know drawing a boundary instead of being able to do that they give in and they give the abuser whatever they want because they’re terrified of the abuser being vindictive retribution etc. etc. etc. So, there is that!

Hold on let’s go back. Okay, number three choose to enter and stay in lengthy high-cost caretaking and rescuing relationships despite the cost to themselves or to others. So they’ll get involved with somebody and I’ve heard this 100,000 million times and it kills me every single time I hear it well but they deserve love too. Well yes, technically everybody on the face of the planet deserves love. Love is the highest power. However, if they are a covert narcissist, okay, covert narcissists are the ones that do the whole covert narcissist and hermits borderlines are the ones that do the martyr… I do all of this for you, you never do anything for me victim, victim, victim, victim, victim, you know, you don’t treat me well blah, blah, blah, and when in fact the codependent is treating them like a king or queen so they stay in these relationships trying to get this approval from this person that’s never… listen to me now, believe me later. Never going to approve and it always the bar gets raised you know you do 100,000 million things for them they’ll want 100,000 million and one. You know, so they get involved in these relationships thinking it’s just around the corner so that intermittent positive reward, that addiction aspect to it “Well but, you know they were they were nice to me once so you know I can feel it they’re going to be nice again it’s going to change.” It’s just like a gambling addict you sitting at the slots going “Oh it’s gonna come any minute! You know “The jackpot is gonna be here any minute! It’s gonna be here any minute!” And never comes up. So that is what good lord Mystique! That is what we do as, as codependence is that we keep hoping or waiting for, for the jackpot, for the payoff, but it never comes because they’re always dangling that carrot in our, in our face, okay.

Let’s go back to the other hallmarks, okay? regularly try to engineer the change of troubled, addicted or under functioning people whose problems are far bigger than their abilities to fix them. So, codependency the term codependency really came out of, it really came out of addiction. And it was to describe the enablers who were helping the alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. But they really weren’t helping, and they were killing themselves trying to help them. So, for example, they will oftentimes in addiction, you know, send them to rehab, after rehab, after rehab, after rehab, after rehab, and they just don’t stop. Why Why aren’t you stopping? Well, I can’t have them fail.

Kris Godinez  28:10

You can in fact, you need to in addiction you have to and if somebody is unwilling to pick up the mantle and go help themselves, you literally cannot help them, you literally can only help people who are willing to help themselves you cannot… listen to me now believe me later. You cannot help the unwilling. Let me say that again. You cannot help the unwilling. If they’re getting a payoff from being a victim, or from being a bully, they’re not going to change, they’re not and what I hear, and the heartbreaking thing I hear from parents of addicted children is “Oh my God! I can’t let them be homeless! Oh my God! I can’t let them fail! No, you have to. You have to. That’s the only way some people get better. Some people’s rock bottom is death, it is. Other people’s rock bottom is they get a DUI, “Oh my God, that’s enough I’m done!” Or other people’s rock bottom is losing family and friends. Some people never get it, it’s a matter of thirds. So, like a third of people go into recovery and they get it and they stay clean and sober. Another, I have yet to meet those people…. Another third of people you know, get into recovery, relapse, relapse, relapse, relapse, relapse and finally get clean and sober and another third just never, never get it and they just keep failing and keep going down the hole. You cannot help people that don’t want to help themselves. You can only help the willing and it’s the same thing in therapy and I tell new therapists this all the time is never work harder than your client your client is got to want to get better and if they really want to get better, they’re going to do the work and I talked about that in the book, So You Want To Be A Therapist, because a lot of people you know it’s like but, but, but no, I know you want everybody to be okay. I want everybody to be okay. Wouldn’t that be great? Wouldn’t it be great if everybody was okay because then I could retire and own a b&b on a beach somewhere Victorian haunted, that would be so cool. Anyway, good haunting, not scary, haunting, little old lady that makes bread anyway, the point being is that people, you can’t help somebody that doesn’t want to change.

Narcissists don’t want to change, they don’t, they tell you they do. But the only time a narcissist ever goes to therapy is if they’ve been forced to by the courts, they are being forced to by family, or they are being forced to by the spouse and they won’t stick with it, they go for like, three times. And as soon as the therapist goes ah, what’s your part in this, they go screw you and they’re out of there. So Alright, hold on, we’re running out of time.

Ah, okay, um, okay, have a pattern of engaging and well intentioned, but ultimately unproductive, unhealthy, helping behaviors such as enabling, and what ends up happening. And this is the sad part is the person you’re trying to help ends up resenting the living crap out of you, you will lose them in the end, you will, because they didn’t really want to change in the first place, they didn’t really want to get help in the first place. They see that you see that they’re not healthy, functioning, whatever, they start getting really resentful, and you will lose them in the end.

So, one thing I said I wanted to talk about before we dive into the questions because we are going to get to the questions but I wanted to talk about this first. Um, one thing I wanted to talk about was when to codependents get together. So initially, when two codependents get together, it’s kind of like I don’t know if you remember the Jungle Book, the old one, the, the cartoon one. And the vultures are all sitting on the tree. What do you want to do? I dunno. What do you want to do? I don’t know, what do you want to do? It’s kind of back and forth forever because everybody’s afraid to make a decision because they don’t want to piss off the other people. So that kind of happens in the beginning, but as the relationship goes on, and one member of the codependent team starts making themselves small in order to make the other person happy and always giving up to their… well, where do you want to go to dinner? You know, and never being able to allowed to make where they’re going to go to dinner, what they’re going to do or whatever, the resentment starts building, the resentment starts building and eventually it starts bubbling and then that’s when people end up on my couch. So usually at a point when it’s too late, so and this is the thing that kills me it’s like codependents have this and we all do it because Hello recovering Hello, you know, um, we have this desire to people please which is why I’m saying Harriet Braiker The Disease To Please read it. Melanie Beatty Codependent No More. Sherry Thank you. Melanie Beatty Codependent No More, Beyond Codependent No More. PM Melody has a book on codependency. We want to people please we want to make them happy we want to you know we want everything to be smooth and great and wonderful and awesome.

Kris Godinez  33:12

But then they don’t return the favor or or it just becomes this like analysis paralysis. I don’t know! What do you want to do? I don’t know, what do you want to do? The resentment starts building if we start going oh no, that’s okay. Yeah, no, that’s fine. A German food is fine when really you wanted Indian food you know that’s the time to speak up. But those little things start building and building and building and building and that’s when the resentment starts and that’s what kills a relationship so two codependents together is no bueno as well so you know in the beginning it’s all let me please you, let me please you, let me please you, let me please you, I don’t know what do you want to do? What do you want to do? But then eventually it’s like oh, no, that’s okay. Oh no, that’s okay. Oh no, no, I really don’t want that Oh no, no, I really don’t want that either. Oh, no, da, da, da, da, da and you start giving up little aspects of yourself and then eventually you get really angry because the resentment has built up so much because you haven’t spoken up for yourself you haven’t said no, this is what I want. You know, we can do this one week and we can do this the other week or you know, whatever. So, boundaries, boundaries, Disease to Please Harriet Braiker, Self-Esteem Workbook, Glen Schiraldi. That is the cure for codependency because people who love themselves stand up for themselves. Dependent personality disorder. Those are the professional victims; they never make a decision. They can’t decide for themselves, they need an exorbitant amount of reassurance. So again, therapy and it’s probably because of trauma. Guarantee it probably came about because of trauma that caused them to second guess themselves to the point where they are now stuck. So there that is Alright, let’s dive into the questions.

Okay. Isn’t this kind of dependency and codependency connected to the lack of self-differentiation? Yes. So, when we are with an abuser Literally, by the time we’re done with that abusive relationship, whether it is a parenting relationship, or whether it is a romantic relationship, or even a boss relationship, we lose who we are, we no longer know who we are, and our boundaries become so blurred, that we don’t know where we begin and end and where that romantic relationship begins and ends, or where that familial relationship begins and ends. So that’s why it’s really, really important self-esteem, boundaries, deal breakers, these are all ways to differentiate yourself, to have a clear boundary from who you are versus who they are, you know, so that you know what your wants and needs are. So very often I have people sitting on my couch after the end of an abusive relationship. Where’s My Water? There it is. Thank you. Okay. Sorry, oh. And they will tell me, I don’t know who I am anymore. I don’t know what I want anymore. I don’t remember what makes me happy. Because they lived for so many. days, weeks, months, years, some cases decades, trying to make this person who will never be healthy, who will never be happy, who will never approve, to be healthy, happy to approve. And so, they’ve lost who they are. It’s like, I don’t know who I am. And I couldn’t even tell you what I like to eat. That literally happens. So yes, differentiation. It’s like beginnings and endings, where you begin and end, where they begin and end. Boundaries, boundaries, super important self-esteem, super important. Basically, everything literally boils down to self-esteem. Work on your self esteem work on the mirror, “Hi! Good to see you! Have a great day! You know what? I give you permission to say no!” And then listen to what the internal critic does. If the internal critic pops up and starts screaming at you, demeaning you, that’s what you need to work on. Thank you for your input. Shut the Bleep up. Why? Because I say so! I am the boss of this. This is not the boss of me. I get to say no. Why? Because I say so. I am the boss. And you reaffirm that and you do that as many times as you need to. So, boundary drawing, self-esteem is huge. Go back to finding out what you like to do. What did you used to like to do before you got involved with the abuser? Or when you were a kid and you were in the crazy family? What was it that you used to like to do? What did you used to enjoy doing that they didn’t touch that they couldn’t get ahold of, or maybe they did get a hold of it, but you used to like to do it before they got a hold of it. Go back to doing that. So, this is why I tell people it’s never too late to have a happy childhood. Go fly kites.

Kris Godinez  37:53

Oh my god, I love flying kites. When we lived in Oregon, we went to the beach, we went to Cannon Beach all the time. And I would fly kites there and it just made me so ridiculously happy. Because that’s what little kids like doing. So, get back to the things that make you happy. Get back to doing the things that bring you joy. Try coloring, coloring books, oh my gosh, one of my girlfriends had two little kids. And so there was a you know, cocktail party, etc, etc. I went off with the little kids and we sat there we drawed. Oh, good grammar Kris. We drew in the comic book or the coloring book. And it was so much fun. And it was so relaxing. There’s a reason why there’s a whole bunch of adult coloring books out because it’s relaxing. It’s fun. You know, so do that. Do things that bring you joy. Do you like miniature golf? Go do miniature golf. Do you like bowling, go do bowling. What are your favorite foods go explore what you want, what you enjoy. Experiment with going out to dinner by yourself. Tell this voice to shut the Bleep up and to go pound sand when it’s like oh my god, people are looking at me blah, blah, blah. No, they’re not. I’m gonna have the salmon, thank you, you know or whatever. So go and do things that challenge you that expand your boundaries that expand your you know, if you’ve made your world super small, go expand it back out again. Go try new things, go do new things. go explore. Figure out what you want. What is important to you, what makes you happy, what brings you joy.

Remember, narcissists do not feel the way we do. They don’t they don’t experience love or joy or happiness or anything else the way a healthy normal person does. And when they see somebody experiencing a healthy normal emotion, whether that’s crying or anger or joy or happiness or whatever. They come unglued because they can’t feel it. So, they try to take it away from us. They’ll take over hobbies, they’ll take over what we like to eat, they’ll take over cooking, they’ll take over whatever brings us joy. They’ll try to take it away from us so your job once you get out of an abusive relationship is to go remind yourself what you used to like to do and what you do like to do that you haven’t done in years because of the abuse. So, get back to that. I hope that answered the question.

Um, the behaviors under dependent personality disorder sound like they could have been induced by abusive treatment? Yes, absolutely. If so, isn’t it more like a set of learned behaviors that can be unlearned than a typically hard to treat disorder? Yes and no. So, think of it this way, if it was learned under abuse, and they were itty, bitty, little itty, bitty ones, okay, it’s the same thing with borderline they started being abused when they were itty bitty. And so those fears, fear is a very powerful motivator. It’s a very powerful deterrent. It’s a very powerful, it’s a powerful emotion. It is, um, you have to undo all of those fears. You have to undo all of those mistaken thoughts, you have to undo all of those mistaken beliefs. So, if you find yourself with dependent personality disorder, if you find yourself constantly being terrified of making a choice, or making a decision or whatever you’re going to want to get with a good trauma therapist absofreakinglutely. Yes, it is based in trauma. Most personality disorders are, not all of them. Not all. Narcissism is not based in trauma. Don’t let them BS you with that. They do. They try. They’re like, Oh, I had a traumatic trauma. No, you didn’t. So don’t get me started. So, but most of them like borderline, dependent, avoidant, OCD. Those are all based in trauma, all of them schizo affective, schizo schizotypal. Not, you know, but the borderline, the avoidant, the dependent, the OCD, yes, those are all based in trauma, if you have any of those, get with a good trauma therapist and start working on the trauma. And that’s going to actually help you resolve all of the behaviors that are learned that are coming up out of that. So yeah, that’s why when anybody says they have any of those, I’m like, okay, here’s what we need to work on. We need to work on the trauma, we need to work on this, we need to work on boundaries, we need to work on self-esteem, we need to work on inner child work, inner child work, because that’s where the trauma happens. So that would be The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor. Now, some people because the trauma was so great, they don’t remember their childhood. That’s okay. You don’t have to, it’s enough to know that you don’t remember your childhood, which is a huge red flag. Oh, my goodness, looking like the Communist Party seriously is like a red flag. The trauma happened, okay, something happened, you may not remember it, and that’s okay. You can still work with it. You know, I don’t remember from ages, I don’t know, zero to six. But

Kris Godinez  42:50

then after six, I remember stuff. Okay. Well, something happened. We don’t know what yet. But we’re going to start assuming that something happened. And we’re going to start working through the inner child workbook and working on the self-esteem of that little four-year-old. Do you see where I’m going with that you start building the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the self-esteem, build the boundaries, build the love for yourself, that’s what’s important. So yes, it is trauma informed, and it is still hard to treat because fear, like I said, is primal. It is part of the fight, flight, freeze or faun, motivator. And if these behaviors have kept us safe, while we were growing up in an abusive relationship and abusive home, it’s going to be hard to get rid of them, but not impossible. Not impossible. So, but it does take a good trauma therapist working on the inner child, working on the trauma, working on building self-esteem, working on building boundaries. deal breakers. Yep, absolutely.

Okay, let’s see, um, how to get over the shame of having made myself smaller when I was in a codependent relationship. I keep remembering how people thought about me back then. Okay. None of us are who we were. None of us. All of us have made mistakes. All of us, if we’re codependent. All of us have made ourselves small in order to try to please the partner. Forgive yourself, sweetie, forgive yourself. We’ve all been there. done that. Hello. Hi, my name is Kris Godinez, and I’m a recovering codependent. Seriously, if that’s what you have to do, because that’s how we were groomed. That’s how we were raised. There’s a reason we became codependent is because it’s usually from having been in a family of origin, where we had to care to take, care give all the time. And we had to take care of people and this and the other thing, and then we take that out into our other everyday life. So, forgive yourself, forgive yourself. You didn’t know what you didn’t know when you didn’t know it. Now you know better. Now you can do better. So, you forgive yourself and if other people oh here’s Hmm, here’s a big one. If other people try to bring up your past and make you wrong for how you were in the past and go, Oh, well, you know you did this when you were in high school, or you did this when you were in grade school, or you did this when you were a young adult. That’s when you really got to ask yourself, what’s the motivation? What’s what, what’s, what’s their agenda? Because who else does that? Hmm, that would be I don’t know, Narcissists dragging up the past trying to put shame into your head over something you did 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago. You always want to question the motivation of that person doing that. Why are they doing that? And when sometimes when people do that with me, like there’s a few people from my high school that when I have to go to high school reunions, they’ll try to do that, and I’ll look at them and go, Yeah, well, that’s not who I am anymore. Thanks for asking. And then I’ll buzz on off. It’s like I’m not playing your game. Thank you. So yeah, you just self-confidence is self-esteem. self-esteem is self-confidence. It really is. Boundaries is also self-esteem and self-confidence. So yeah, you want to ask yourself, what’s the motivation for dragging up the past and trying to embarrass you with it? Or if you’re the one dragging up your own past try to embarrass yourself for it. Who taught you the shame? Huh? Who taught us the shame? Abusers teach us the shame. Abuser shove their shame into our head and we think it’s ours. It is not! Hand the shame back to where it belongs CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. Chapter Three. I think it’s chapter three. I really need to go back and take a look at that book. Anyway. I think it’s chapter three. Putting the shame and the blame and the anger and everything else, the guilt back to where it belongs. It is not yours we do not pop out of the womb feeling guilty. We don’t! Yeah! Or shameful, we don’t, that’s taught that’s a taught behavior. So yeah, you want to forgive yourself. We all make ourselves smaller, every single one of us and we can heal and recover from being codependent. And how do we do that? We do the mirror work. We do the workbooks. We do the CPTSD From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker. We do the Self-Esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, we do The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor, we get with a good trauma therapist, we start working through our past, where did this come from? Why did I believe this, we get rid of the mistaken thoughts and the mistaken beliefs. And you do recover from it. You do! It takes work, though. And a lot of times, people will want to get help, but they’re not really wanting to do the work. And I have to explain to them it’s like, this is not osmosis, you’re not just going to have a session with me and suddenly, you know, you’re a healed you know, it

Kris Godinez  47:48

would be great if it worked that way. Wow. Wouldn’t that be cool that that would be cool. That would be cool. doesn’t work that way, though. The only, the last person did that got, got nailed to a tree. So, you know, you can’t, you can’t expect that. When you go into therapy, you’re gonna have to do the work. And that means having to confront and feel and work through the emotions and the feelings and the thoughts and the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs that happened when we were kids. And some people are just like, No, no, no, no, no, I don’t want to do I’m just, I’m just gonna ignore it well, when we ignore things we’re not dealing with, but they’re still running in the background, like a broken code. Okay, like a broken computer. There’s something there’s some malware running in the background. And it’ll come out sideways, if you’re not aware of it, if you haven’t worked on it. That’s why I’m saying you cannot allow the fear. Remember, fear is a powerful motivator not to do things because we’re afraid. You cannot allow the fear to stop you from processing the trauma. That’s what you got to do. You got to put it back on to the abuser you got to get clear that headspace out of all the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs, that the abusive family or the abusive boyfriend or the abusive boss or the abusive friends shoved into your head because they’re not yours. You’ve got to confront it, you got to work with it. And guess what, you can do it! You can do it. And then you have to ask yourself, okay, how old do I feel? Why am I terrified. A lot of times when I’m working with clients, I’m starting to lose my voice. I can hear it. Um, a lot of times when I’m working with clients, they will you know, express this I don’t want to feel it. I don’t want to think it. I don’t want to have to well, how old are you right now? And then right after they tell me to go pound sand. They’ll say I’m two. You know, I feel like I’m two. Okay. Well, that’s where the abuse happened. That’s why you’re terrified at your two-year-old is terrified. Let’s comfort them. Like why don’t you put your two-year-old on your lap and hold her or hold him and hug him and tell him how wonderful he is? Tell her how great she is. Tell her she’s safe. Tell him she said he’s safe. Tell them that they’ve got you’ve got their back there. Okay. Everything’s good. So that’s what you got to do. So, there is that okay. Hey um don’t don’t make yourself feel shame if you feel shame put it back on the abuser and remind yourself you know we do what we can we do the best we can with what we’ve got at the time. And then afterwards, you know, now that we know better now, we can do better. Forgive yourself, forgive yourself.

Okay. codependents and Narcissus can both have a savior complex, how do they approach being a savior differently? different motivations? So, remember, a narcissist is never really truly interested in another person. They look at it as to how they can aggrandize themselves so those are the ones who do the charitable acts, but then they make sure to tell everybody all of their charitable acts, okay people who are really interested in doing charitable acts, don’t feel the need to go on to Facebook or YouTube or I don’t know what other social media Twitter, Instagram what’s the other one Snapchat? You know all of these you know things and go look at me, look at me, look at me, look at all these charitable acts that I’m doing. No, they’re doing it for self-aggrandizement. So self-aggrandizement. So, with a codependent is their wellbeing depends on the other person being okay I need to make sure you’re okay. I need to make sure this is good I need to make sure the family is working remember that’s kind of the original motivation for the whole codependency so it’s all about the other person making sure they’re okay so they can be okay whereas with the narcissist it’s Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at what I’m doing. Look at all my good charitable acts bla, bla bla, so there’s that, okay. All right. Um, and of course, here’s the thing, a narcissist will never put themselves out. Ever, they will never put themselves out. One of the defining acts of codependency is, the codependent will put themselves out to the point where they keel over, in order to help, Narcissists will never go out of their way for a single living creature on this planet, if it puts them out of comfort, they’re not going to do it. So that’s the difference. All right, um, let me take some more water because my voice is really going oh my god.

Okay, um, how to deal with a friend who purposely trauma dumps? Is there something specific I should pay attention to? With this personality type? Well, okay, I’m assuming that you mean and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m assuming that you mean that the person you know, comes and tells you all of their problems, okay. So people do that, not realizing

Kris Godinez  52:46

how hard it is on the listener. So, if you got to tell him to get a therapist, you know, if they start trauma dumping on you, you’ve got to be like, Look, I love you. I want to be here for you. However, this is a boundary. This is what you do all the time. You need to go talk to a professional, I am not a therapist, I can’t help you. A trauma therapist can help you. Right now, all you’re doing is you’re just regurgitating everything that’s happened. You need steps to help you keep moving forward so that you don’t keep living in the past. And if they come unglued. They may be like, well, you’re not a real friend, blah, blah, blah. But I’m sorry, if a friend walked up to me and said you should probably go see a therapist, I would go Okay, and go see a therapist. So, you know somebody who trauma dumps all the time generally is not interested in change. So, people who are interested in change, ask questions, what can I do about this? Can I change this? Can I help this? You know, what, what do you think I should do? And then you know, you can give them your opinion. But if they’re just coming and going, you know, and just vomiting all of this trauma all over you but not doing anything not working a workbook not seeking therapy, not doing anything to better themselves, then you need to stop because now that’s enabling them because now they’re just victim, victim, victim, victim, victim, and you don’t want that and they may or may not stick around, you know, because again, if they’re covert Narcissus, and they’re the constant victim or if they’re the hermit borderline, and they’re the constant victim, there’s a payoff for their behavior and if you’re not giving them the payoff, then why should they stick around? So, you have to be prepared to lose that friend so you recommend that they go get trauma therapy, recommend the books and if they don’t do anything to better themselves, then you know that they’re not interested in change. They’re just interested in being a victim and just vomiting all over you so you don’t have to take that you absolutely don’t boundaries. Boundaries. Okay.

Okay, this is going to be our last question because I am losing my voice. Can some people become codependent because we wrongly internalize messages from our parents that they didn’t intend to give? Or is it always from hearing overt messages? No, we can internalize unsaid things too. I don’t believe in coincidences. I don’t. So, parents can also give nonverbal you need to take care of me clues and that’s never a mistake. So yes, it can be nonverbal it can be over it can be covert. Absolutely. They can be both so yeah and basically again get with a good trauma therapist undo the mistaken thoughts undo the mistaken beliefs You do not have to caretake everybody in order to be loved and that’s our big thing is that we think that if we care take them we’re going to be loved but really what ends up happening is we take over responsibility for them we kill ourselves doing it and then they get resentful. Yeah, no, it always backfires always so what you want to do is you want to work on self-esteem The Self-esteem Workbook Glen Schiraldi.  All the boundaries Harriet Braiker The Disease to Please awesome book. Inner Child work. Figure out how old you were when this all started The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor. Mirror work “Hi, good to see you! Have a great day! I give you permission to say no and mean it!” and then walk out. So yeah, alright guys, I am losing my voice quickly. Be good. Take care of yourselves. Drink plenty of water and I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

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