We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

01-29-2023 The Hoover (Why we get pulled back in)
In this episode of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez, Kris talks about how we get pulled back into an abusive relationship, what a hoover is, and how not to fall for one!

Have you ever wondered why a person who dumped you so brutally would ever try to contact you again? Or what type of abuser would try to pull you back into an abusive relationship? This episode explains what a Hoover is, who is likely to hoover and what you can do to make yourself bulletproof to said hoover.

The second half of this and every episode is answering your questions. Questions on abuse, how to stay safe and anything you are curious about regarding narcissistic intimate partner violence. Questions range from the seemingly personal to what ends up being universally asked questions.

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, ah, announcements and I need this to be in the podcast because I’d like people to attend my meet-and-greets. So, the meet and greets will be in Santa Barbara on February 18. I’ll be in Santa Barbara. Um, the next one after that will be in Vancouver. That will be May 19, no 20th May 20. The next one after that is going to be in Portland, Oregon. And I do not know the dates yet. It will be in July. Um, and then we are doing Florida in the Tampa area in December, December, like the early part of December, go to Krisgodinez.com. And you can find all the meet and greets.

So, um basically the police, police, the police, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there needs to be oversight. There needs to be like a citizen oversight on these incidences and not just kicked back to the police department just like there needs to be oversight in the family court system and not just kicked back to the bar because it’s like, okay, prime example. I’m sorry. So, in dealing with a client that’s going through a domestic violence situation, I’m speaking to the general practitioner could not get it through their head, that the judge wouldn’t understand the situation. So, for example, a lot of clients are afraid to go get antidepressants or anti-anxiety meds because they’re afraid of it coming out in the divorce hearing or in the custody hearing or in whatever. And the general practitioner the doctor couldn’t understand that a judge wouldn’t understand that issue. Because the GP was like, Oh, well, you should go see a psychiatrist. And you know, the client was like, I’m not going to go see a psychiatrist. I don’t want this getting out and they do they even though the HIPAA laws protect it, you’d be amazed at how sneaky and nasty these divorce cases can get and how invasive so or maybe you wouldn’t be. I shouldn’t be shocked. But sometimes I still am.

Anyway, um, so there’s a lack of understanding of the judicial system. So, in the police department where this brutality happened, five cops beat to death Mr. Nichols while he was crying for his mother, which just breaks my heart. And here’s what I pulled up. I was wondering what is the recommendation for police officers? Like what is the bare minimum you have to have, and this is from the Phoenix Police Department. minimum requirement, you have to be 20 and a half years old and 21 years of age prior to completion of the academy. You have to be United States citizens you have to be in sound physical and mental health now but here’s the thing. Are they testing for that? I’m sorry. How? How many psychopaths have we seen in our lives? How many antisocial have we seen in our lives that lie about their mental health condition? Oh, honey, oh, I’d have to take off my shoes and start counting. You know what I’m saying? There’s tons of them. They don’t tell the truth. That’s part of being antisocial. They’re pathological liars. So, are they going on Oh, you’re just telling me that you’re of sound mind? Do you see where I’m going? There’s no psych eval in here at all. Okay, must successfully complete a medical exam. Okay, that’s great. That’s physical, though that’s not mental have not been dishonorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces, and within the last 36 months have fewer than eight driving violation points have no more than one chargeable. One chargeable accident have no convictions for DUI, no more than one in a lifetime. I’m sorry, but I think police officers should be held to a higher standard. I’m sorry. I do. Possess a valid driver’s license that has not been canceled refuse suspended or revoked must meet Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training and drug testing. No Commission or conviction of a felony misdemeanor arrests are discretionary.

There are a lot of police officers at least in the in the local area that have had domestic violence calls on them. Oh, yeah, don’t get me started. Must have good moral character and personal integrity. How do you how… do you interview for that? Again, psychopaths can fake. Antisocial can fake narcissists can fake Hello, you know it’s like what’s your what’s your gold standard here? What are you how are you? How are you judging that they’ve got personal integrity? Somebody who’s going to beat somebody to death doesn’t sound to me like they’ve got personal integrity sounds to me like they’ve got mob mentality is know what that sounds like to me. Most have a high school diploma or GED, or home school diploma or equivalency must have. Yeah, that’s it. That’s it.

There’s no training in psychological there’s no training in not engaging in the mob mentality. There is no training in domestic violence there is. Huh? It is unacceptable because these are public servants. We are their bosses. And I think we as a nation forget that. We are their bosses; we pay their salary through our taxes. It is unacceptable that three people a month every month since 2020, have died in police instances like this. The whole system needs to be overhauled; I’m not kidding you. And the only way that’s going to happen is if we the people speak up and go, Hey, we are survivors of abuse. This is unacceptable. The judges not knowing there A hole from a hole in the ground is unacceptable. They’re not understanding the way a narcissist or an abuser is going to use the judicial system as an abuse by proxy. Unacceptable. This needs to be changed. And we have got to speak up. And the only way it’s going to change is if we all rise up. And we start going hey, look at this. Look at how this is broken. Look at how this is not serving the children. Hello, how many how many divorce cases where the kids are sacrificed at the altar of the judge’s ego? If I could start throwing little fingers right now I would! Tons of times, it makes me angry. And you take that further out to the police department. They’re killing people, three people a month every month since 2020. That’s unacceptable. They work for us. That’s not okay. If I’m the boss, they get fired. They go to jail. And training is implemented to prevent this from ever freaking happening again unacceptable get angry guys. We are their bosses. And they act like they’re our bosses, ah, ah, our taxes pay for them. So, get angry, get vocal, get involved. Don’t just go oh, well, more violence. Now. The only way it’s going to stop is if we demand that it stops. And the only way that the judicial system is going to get its head pulled out of its hind end is if we demand that this changes. So, there’s my soapbox for this morning so or this afternoon. Anyway, that’s my current event. I think there needs to be more training. I do. I’m sorry. I don’t I don’t think you can go on. Just somebody saying, Oh, I’m a good person. Okay. Well, I’m sorry, during the love bombing phase. Did they all say they were good people? Yeah, they did. So, I think there needs to be psychedelics, I think there needs to be accountability. I think there needs to be taxpayer oversight. I do. Because this is our money. And every time one of these evil people kill somebody, there’s going to be a lawsuit, and then there’s going to be a huge payout. Where does that money come from our taxes. This has got to stop. This has got to stop. It’s evil. It’s wrong. There needs to be oversight. Get a hold of your Senator, get a hold of your representative. Get a hold of your city council, get a hold of your chief of police. Let them know. Let them know. We have power in our voice. So do that. And believe me when I tell you I’m pretty sure I’m on a whole bunch of watch lists. Because whenever anything like this happens, I start sending out letters to everybody. I do, and that’s our power. So, in numbers, we can change it. So, there it is. All right. That’s my rant. I’m sorry, I’m done.

Okay, so today I wanted to talk about why we get sucked back in what the heck? What is going on?

Kris Godinez  10:01

So, the Hoover basically so basically from Halloween through February through Valentine’s Day, it’s Hoover season. Hoover season. So, the Hoover is when an abuser success back like a vacuum cleaner, like the Hoover, you know, so they suck us back into the relationship. And so many times, targets of abuse are so hard on themselves because they fell for the Hoover. So, here’s what’s going on.

So, people have asked, Why did I fall for it? When I kind of sort of knew better, but here’s the deal. There’s so many things going on that causes us to go back. So don’t beat yourselves up. On average, and this is just average, it takes seven times leaving before it finally sticks. Why? Okay, we are dealing with flying monkeys. Okay, how many of us had family and friends who were like, Oh, you just need to work it out. Oh, you just need to go to couples counseling, oh, you just need to… either not understanding the level of abuse or they liked the drama, and they like hearing about the drama. Okay, so you got that. You’ve got the cognitive dissonance. So, the cognitive dissonance is where they’ve sold us a bill of goods, we believe everything that they’ve said because we love them, and we want to believe it. So, in the love bombing phase, love bomb, love bomb, love bomb I’m your soulmate on the best thing that’s ever happened to you. Nobody else is going to love you the way I do. Oh my God, I hope not. You know what I’m saying? It’s so they do this whole, you know, I’m the best thing ever. And I’ll never lie to you. And you’ve done it out of that. But then they start to devalue in the discard. And our brains is like, seriously, it’s like somebody stuck a mixer in there an egg beater and just, you know, turned on the mixer. And we get this cognitive dissonance. So, on the one hand, we can see the abuse because we feel it. We feel it. On the other hand, they’re telling us Oh, I love you. I cannot tell you the number of times, I have dealt with child abuse cases where the abuser would be beating the child and at the same time denying that they were doing it so gaslighting while they were beating the child, Oh, I love you. I’m doing this because I love you. This is not me doing this. This is somebody else this is. So, you know. So, there’s this cognitive dissonance where the incoming information does not match what we know to be true. And that causes the fog. So, we’ve got fear, we’ve got obligation, and we’ve got guilt going on. Now, you couple that with if we had a family of origin that was dysfunctional, abusive, neglectful, you know, the whole thing, drug addicts, alcoholics, you know, and we’ve got codependency going on, okay, that need to The Disease to Please by Harriet Brakier, great book. So, we’ve got all of that going on.

So, they have gone through the love bombing phase. Then they’re in the devalue in the discard. And then we decide to leave, right? Because we’ve had enough, we were like, this is this is not good for me, I need to leave. So, we start to leave. And what ends up happening is, is they start doing the love bombing, again, like big time, and what happens is, is that inner child, that little kid inside of us that so desperately wants to be loved, and accepted and cherished and taken care of, and etc., etc., etc. That little kid inside of us, that’s why I keep saying the Inner Child Workbook is invaluable. You will need it. Okay, so that little kid inside of us goes, Oh, they love me again. Oh, it’s going to be okay. No, it’s going to be different this time. So, we kind of like gaslight ourselves in a way. And we want to believe we want to believe it’s like Scully and Mulder, I want to believe you know, I want to believe that they are going to change I want to believe that the person I fell in love with is the real person. So, we’ve got all of that going on. So little kid goes, oh my god, they love me. They love me. Oh, this is good. Oh, yay. And the next thing you know, they’re right back to the devalue in the discard.

The love bombing gets shorter and shorter and shorter, and the devalue in the discard gets more and more intense. And really, especially if you’re dealing with a dark triad. They are pushing the envelope. How much physical abuse will you take? How much verbal abuse will you take? How many cheating incidences will you take? I’ve seen them do things like, at first, they would hint they were cheating. And the person you know left them and then they love bombed them, and they took them back. And then the next time it was like, Oh no, I am absolutely cheating. Right, and then they left them, and they were love bombing them and then went back. And then the next time they actually brought the other woman over. This is how, what’s the word I’m looking for? Absolutely egregious. That’s a good word. I like the word egregious, egregious and, and arrogant. And they literally think that there will be no consequences like, oh, I can do whatever I want. And unfortunately, if the target of abuse hasn’t got no self-esteem, no support system, they might just allow that in the misguided hope that if they let them do that, and get it out of their system, trust me, they’ll never get it out of their system, this is who they are, this is their system, this is who they are, that somehow, they’ll let the other person go and come back to them. And that’s the codependency.

So, these are the various reasons why we get sucked back in it really is like the mafia. You know, I tried to leave, and they just keep pulling me back. And that’s what they do. And they play on our emotions. And that is, what is such a mind. Mess for us, is because they really don’t have emotions. They don’t. But yet, they’re able to read our emotions and know exactly what to say, and which buttons to push to get us to come back, or to get us to engage in a dialogue with them. Okay. And it’s a game to them. I cannot express this enough. We mean nothing more to them. Where did all my pens go? Good, Lord, they’re all gone. All right, well, I’ve got a white out here. So, we mean nothing more to them than this whiteout cartridge. And as soon as our usefulness is done, they toss us we’re done, that we’re objects to them. We don’t mean anything. To them. They do not love. They say they do. Oh, I miss you, baby. It’ll be different this time. I promise I’m going to change. No, they don’t hold. They do not change. And so, we fall for it, though, because that inner child so desperately wants to believe that they’re going to change. Because, let’s face it, most of us are optimists. And we look for the good in people. And that’s a great way to live unless you’re dealing with an abuser. And unfortunately, we give them the benefit of the doubt we do. And we are like, oh, you know, they’re going to change. They’re telling you they’re going to change.

So, we’re very trusting, and we’re very like a child look how trusting children can be, you know, very trusting, very wanting to believe the best, wanting to believe that they’re going to change. It’s kind of like, I don’t know if you guys have ever watched Gone With the Wind. I hate that movie. I hate that movie so much. I cannot even begin to tell you. Somebody needs to just slap starlet seriously. But I’m Melanie. Melanie is a person a character in that movie. It sees the good in everyone. And so, here’s Scarlett, a total Narcissus. Thank you very much going after her husband, Ashley and, and it’s like Melanie’s completely blind to it. She just won’t see it because she wants to see the good in everybody. And that’s dangerous. There’s a fine line. It’s like, yes, you want to see the good and everybody. No, you don’t want to be like totally paranoid, but you got to have that balance of prove to me that you’re trustworthy. Show me through actions. You’re trustworthy. That’s really. Actions speak louder than words. And remember, narcissists can say the prettiest things, and they know that, and especially and remember, they’ve been observing us and watching us like a shark. That’s the best way I can put it. They are antisocial, like nobody’s business a lot of times.

Kris Godinez  19:06

And they watch us, and they look to see what is our weakness, what is our kryptonite? And mostly for a lot of us our kryptonite is love. We want to be loved. We want to be accepted. We want to be appreciated. We want to be seen; we want to be heard. And so, they play on that, oh, oh, they want to be loved. Okay, I can play that. And so, they’ll play it, and they put that mask on. And they do it just long enough to get us back, and I can guarantee you they will punish the crap out of you for having the audacity to leave them. And that’s really what this is all about. It’s a game. It’s a game, and they get off. I’m not kidding you. They get off on. Can I get them back? Can I be smooth enough and charming enough and sexy enough and this enough and that enough to get them back? And that’s it’s the game. And then when you come back, they go, I got them back, okay. And then they start their BS all over again. It’s like the clock, you know, it’s like here at 12 o’clock is the love bombing. And the love bombing goes until about three, but then the devalue and discard starts. And then the really horrible stuff starts at six, and then we book out. And then they’re in the remorseful quote, unquote, phase. And then the love bombing starts up again. But then it’s shorter, and it goes instead of to three goes to two, and then the devalue and discard goes to five, from two to five, and then boom, and then you know, it just keeps going. And they suck us in because they play on our good nature. They play on our desire to be loved, they play on our desire to be appreciated, and wanted and heard and everything and trust me, they are listening to every single story, you tell them about your family of origin, and they are going to use that to abuse you, they’re going to use that to pull you back in. They’re going to you know, the whole thing. What they will often do, and this has happened over and over and over and over again, is they play on the time of year. And this is why I wanted to make sure to do this particular episode on the Hoover. So, Valentine’s Day, Valentine’s Day is a Hallmark holiday. I personally don’t like it. John doesn’t like it. We don’t celebrate it. We wear black. That’s because it’s like this is a stupid holiday. Well, it is really when you think about it, it puts too much pressure on couples, and it puts too much pressure on singles. I don’t like it. So, it’s like if you’re going to celebrate your love, how much do it all the time? There you go.

They’re just an idea. I don’t know, you know, and it makes me angry because I see restaurants and flower people, florists, and everybody else Jack their prices up, and I’m just like, Ah, I’m not participating in this.

But Narcissists? Oh, boy, they know it’s the romantic day. They know it’s the romance season. And they will start doing hoovers like nobody’s business right around this time period. So, they do it a lot during the holidays, a little bit of a break in, in January. And then, boy, howdy, they start up again. And it’s cyclical, guys. I mean, this traditionally is the most time for Hoovers, but they can happen who was going to happen at any time. And they can happen decades later. Like literally 20 years later, I had one where the client was like, You are not going to believe who just left me a voicemail. And I’m like, don’t tell me it was your first husband. Yeah. It was her first husband, literally 30 years later. What the, you know, wanting to get together for coffee. And she’s like, nope, and I’m like, good girl. It’s like they don’t change, guys. And you’ve got to help that inner child understand. They’re not going to change. So, they play on the emotions they play on the season. Absolutely. So, whether it’s Christmas or whether it’s Valentine’s Day, they’re going to play on that. Oh, you know, I just, I was taking a trip down memory lane, and I was thinking about all the cool things we did and….. And usually, though the funny thing of it is, is usually most narcissists are terrible at gift-giving terrible, like they don’t know how to give gifts, and they don’t know how to be romantic. Because romance, real romance, not just sex. Now, here’s the thing. narcissists do sex just great. They do. They can.

So, sex is fine, because there’s no intimacy; there’s no emotional investment in that. It’s physical. So, they can do that. But with real romance, honest to God, real romance, it’s the whole package. It’s physical intimacy, its emotional intimacy, its intellectual intimacy. It is the whole thing. And so, it’s really hard for them to really truly give you romance like the whole package. That’s the thing that so many survivors tell me when they get out of those relationships. Man, the sex was great. It was great that yet they were cheating on me, or they were unable to remember our anniversary or our, you know, birthdays or whatever. They’re not good with intimacy. They’re not. So, they play on it. And they play on that hope that we have that they’re going to wake up and that they’re going to change and they’re going to figure it out. And they’re going to do the V8 slap and go, oh my god, I’ve been an idiot, I need to go back, I need to fix this, and you know, they don’t, they don’t. And if they’re doing that, you got to, you got to trust your gut and work all of these books that I talked about. So, the C PTSD From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, The Self-Esteem Workbook, all of these books are going to make you bulletproof to these Hoover’s, okay. And it’s also going to help in The Inner Child Workbook by either Lucia Cappacchione or by Catherine Taylor. All of these are going to help you be bulletproof because you’ll be working on the inner child who so desperately wants to be loved, Harry Braiker  The Disease to Please. The codependency, the acceptance, oh my God, I want to be accepted. I want to be loved. The self-esteem, it’s like, Hmm, you know what, you treated me like crap. I’m not putting up with that have a nice life. Go pound sand. You know that, that certainty that you don’t deserve to be treated poorly. So, these books will all help you to cement that in get with a good trauma therapist because they’ve done the trauma bonding. It’s that Stockholm Syndrome. It is it’s that. Oh, but you know, I need to be with him because we’ve shared so much we’ve gone through. Ah, no, don’t fall for the time-invested fallacy. And with parents, we do that too. Okay. And they’ve been abusing you forever.

So, what are you doing? You know, we’re so sorry. You’re telling me you want this, but you’re doing this? What can you see the incongruency it’s working on a cognitive dissonance with a therapist. It’s working on a post-traumatic stress syndrome that we have because of their intermittent positive rewards. I love you. I love you. I love you. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I love you. I hate you. I love you. I hate you. I hate, hate hate you love, love, love you. And we start living for those days when they love us. And they’ve trained us like Pavlov’s dog, that as soon as they shine their lovely love light on us that we go. Oh, they love me again. Oh, thank god, okay, okay, I can. I’m safe. Now I can go back. Nope, that is when you are in the most dangerous when they have done the devalue in the discard, and you’ve recognized the abuse, and you’ve left them, and they come back trying to get you back into their realm or their, their sphere of influence their control, that is when you are in the most danger because they are going to punish you. They do. And the punishment is a harder devalue and discard. And probably some physical stuff going on, too, right? I’ve yet to see one that didn’t escalate. So may take some time. But they do they do escalate.

So Okay. All right. So that is that, um, and I just wanted to be clear it, it takes seven times. So, there’s stuff going on inside of us that is contributing to that going back. Now, do not beat yourself up. Like I said, it takes seven times, you’ve got to work on this stuff, you have got to work on this stuff. It’s like, you’re not going to get it through osmosis. So, it’s great that you go out and buy the books y’all got to start working ‘em, like seriously, because it’s not going to do any good. If it’s just sitting on your nightstand and you’re not reading it, it’s not going to do you any good if you’re just shoving it into a drawer and you’re not reading it. So, this is why therapists can help. So, a lot of times, change is scary to us as survivors of abuse. So, what I will do is when I see somebody struggling with the books, I’m like, Okay, let’s pick the self-esteem workbook. Let’s work through it together. And that is what helps is to have a therapist work through the book with you to help calm that inner child because, that’s usually what’s going on is the inner child is just freaking outgoing. But I don’t want to because well what’s going to happen if I change? Good stuff, trust me, good stuff is going to happen.

Kris Godinez  28:41

But things do change, and the way that abusers deal with you also changes. So, in other words, once you get your self-esteem going, and once you understand your value and your worth and you don’t put up with shenanigans anymore, those people tend to go goodbye because you’re no longer an easy target. They look for easy targets. They look for people who have got families of origin that have harmed us that have hurt us that have neglected us that have abused us, etc. So, I want to be very clear. This is not victim shaming. This is not like oh, look at you. You’re so bad for going back. No, sorry. How many of us went back, raise your hand a lot of right there with you. It’s the inner child. It’s the self-esteem. It’s the thing you need to work on to make ourselves absolutely bulletproof. So that when one of these jack wagons comes up, we can go Uh huh, yeah, I could smell you a mile away. You just you hit the road Jack, you just keep on going. No. Do you see where I’m going with that? So gentle with you. Gentle with you. Work the workbooks. Get with a good trauma therapist. I’m not kidding you. It can really help. A good trauma therapist will help keep pushing you forwards. In other words, so say, for example, when I get a client that is like really stuck just like well, why should I do this, and you in it and they start sounding like they’re about four, I’ll be like, Okay, take a deep breath. How old are you right now? How old? Do you feel? Four. Okay, what is your four-year-old afraid of, and then we’ll walk through it. And generally, what it was, and what it is, is it anytime we’ve ever stood up to abusive family, we got punished. So, in a way, us standing up for ourselves is standing up to abusive family. And so that inner child is going to be like, freaking out, you got to calm the inner child down, and love them and hug them and call them George, and help them understand their safe and then keep moving forward. And that’s what a good therapist will do for you. So, you know, it’s like, you don’t just stop, you always help move forward, and you comfort that’s the big thing. Comforting that inner child, comforting that fear, giving encouragement, you can do this. You can get away from them. You absolutely can. I don’t care how many times you’ve gone back. You will eventually, at some point, make the decision that this is it. And really seek out support. Seek out safe family; if there is any safe friends, a support group, a therapist, get support. Get out. You’re worth it. You’re worth it is a lot of work. Yep. Are you worth it? Absolutely. there that is alright.

Let’s hit the questions. How can we break the trauma bond? When that’s the bond, we broke with our abusive parent unit? Why is it so hard to boot the rest of the abusive people? Because it’s familiar. So again, we’ve got the inner child going. But this time it will be different or, but I’ve known them forever, or but it’s the inner child. So, it’s familiar. And that is, that is a huge clue. It’s like if you’re starting dating or whatever, you’re noticing some really familiar behavior. Those should be red flags, like if they remind you of your abusive family, that should be a red flag. I can’t tell you the number of times I had done interviews, like at different agencies, when I was you know, interning and things like that. And they would interview me, and I’m just like, oh, the dynamic here is dysfunctional. No. Because it was really familiar. So that’s kind of what stops us is and there’s the fear. So, when we leave an abusive relationship, whether it’s a parental relationship, or a romantic relationship, we’re terrified of being alone, we’re terrified that we’re never going to find friends, we’re terrified that we’re not going to find support. And when we start clearing out the toxic people from our lives, it can feel very lonely. But think of it this way. It’s like a spring cleaning, you’re getting rid of appliances of the don’t work, you’re getting rid of clothes that no longer fit you, you’re getting rid of people who are harmful to you, because you don’t deserve to be harmed. So, think of it that way you have value. You have worth. And as such as a child of the universe, you do not deserve to be harmed ever by anyone, and I don’t care who the bleep they think they are. Does that make sense? So yeah, it’s because it’s familiar. And breaking the trauma bond with the other abusers in our life is our task. It really is. Until we recognize you know, well for the rest of our lives. But when we start recognizing our value and our worth, it gets a lot easier. So, there’s that.

Okay, um, is there an opposite of Hoover, my late narc mom never saw contact, just sat waiting, if anyone would contact her and tell other family members that no one ever calls or visits? Oh my god, that is so common. Okay. So, to be clear, narcissists tend to do one of two things. They either do the Hoover and this is usually in romantic relationships. It can be in parental relationships as well. You know, they do the whole guilt thing, you know, you never write, you never call, you know, that whole thing. But they also can do the whole I’m going to sit here and wait for you to call me. Because I’m too important to pick up the phone. They do that. I can’t. We have a family member that does that. Yeah. And then they tell everyone how nobody pays attention to them, and nobody kowtows to them. And nobody up above.

So yeah, so here’s the deal. When narcissists get called out, okay? And they know that you’re not going to put up with it. They go, they go by the end, but then they will play the victim. So, their covert narcissists are the ones who do that. So, they’re usually older family members, and they’re the ones like, like you said, your NARC, your late narc mom. So older family members will do the whole. They never call, they never write Poor me. I’m a victim. Look, you should feel sorry for me, etc., etc., etc. So yeah, they absolutely do that because they seriously don’t believe that they why should they pick up the phone even though it’s so easy you pick up the phone yet a button you’re connected, but they don’t want that it’s a power trip. Remember, it’s a power trip, and they would rather be alone and a victim than actually have a real relationship because they know you’re not going to put up with the BS. That’s why if you were still cow telling them, then they would be fine with contacting you, but they know they’re not going to win. So, remember, it’s all about the win for them, and double bonus they get to be the victim, and triple bonus, they get to smear you. That’s their goal. That’s their game. So yeah, there is there are two polar opposite ways of acting. There’s either the Hoover or there’s the I’m going to play the victim. I’m going to pretend that nobody loves me or maybe really people don’t want them, you know, and I’m going to smear them and live in my own petard, you know what I’m saying? So yeah, there that is. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, hope that answered the question.

My cousin changed her story. She wanted to stay with my ex narc. And even sided with him against me. Now he’s gone. She is gossiping, calling me naive for staying. Oh, why the behavior change because you’re dealing with a disordered person. So, let’s be clear, disordered people generally have a personality disorder, either narcissism or borderline personality disorder, history histrionic, something like that. And they need chaos and drama. Like the rest of us need oxygen. So, they will flip-flop. You know, there’ll be a mugwump, a mug on one side, and there womp on the other. They’re sitting on a fence, right? So, there’ll be a mug lump. And they’ll play both sides against the middle and they’ll try to stir up the pot. And it for them it’s drama. It’s look at me Look at me, look at me. I’ve got information. You know, I don’t understand why they didn’t leave blah, blah blah. So, they will stir the pot create drama, smear you, want to act like they’re in the know. Somehow. They’ve shown you who they are. And the second somebody disrespects you oh my god, you be done. Like where’s the wash pan on the  wash my hands goodbye y’all go pound sand that you’ve they’ve shown you who they are. And they flip flop their story so that they get attention. It’s all about them. So minor narcissists, possibly, I don’t know. So, but that’s something that somebody who is disordered does, so they will tell stories they’ll side with the abuser Okay, who side with the abuser or one or two types they are either just fracking ignorant, don’t understand abuse don’t understand domestic violence don’t understand narcissistic abuse don’t get how these people behave and or they are minor narcissists themselves and they’re enjoying the attention so there you go, and they like to be associated with a major narcissist.

Kris Godinez  38:19

So that’s why they side with the narcissist so yeah, they’ve shown you she or he has shown you who they really are. And in that case, you wash your hands you have nothing more to do with them and you block them you don’t talk to them you don’t include them. You’d be done, you be done you need to guard your well-being like nobody’s business like for example. Your peace of mind, your peace, your calm, your safe haven needs to be guarded as jealously as any country guards their borders. You know what I’m saying? It’s like you are an island of peace and calm, and nobody got the right to violate that. So don’t allow them back in once somebody has shown you who they really are. Kick them to the curb seriously because the intention is to create drama. The intention is to create drama, and the intention is to create chaos and to get attention, so don’t give it to them. Cut them off. Cut off the supply. Yep, absolutely.

Okay, um, do minor narcissists in a family try to be top dog? Once the main narc becomes old and weak. The minor narc tries to take over yes, that absolutely can’t happen. So, in a disordered family and dysfunctional family, they will eat their young for bread. First, they will eat their old for breakfast. They will harm whoever they can in order to be powerful. You betcha. So once the major narc is incapacitated, has dementia, whatever. Generally, it’s the golden child, not always, but generally, it’s the golden child who suddenly becomes the next narcissist, or it’s one of the other narcissists in the family that suddenly becomes the major narcissist. It is a power and control game. It really is. It’s all about power; it’s all about control. The only way to win is to not play, I swear to God, and all the totally, the only way to win is to not play because they will drag you in, drag you through the mud, get you to pick sides, which is never a good idea. You know, lie, all sorts of stuff. You don’t need it. Life’s too short. Absolutely.

Okay. Um, narcissists, only Hoover; if they are assured of winning if there’s any chance that they’re not going to win, they’re not going to Hoover. And again, the Hoover can take 20 years. So, what ends up happening is the relationship breaks up. You are pretty strong and saying no, we’re done. It’s, you know, absolutely, you have not contacted them. So, they’re not assured of winning. So, they’re going to go through and go find other sources. And once they run out of all the new supply, I can guarantee you you’re probably 20 or 30 years from now going to get a text or an email or a phone call, or whatever IM or whatever, you know, hey, just thinking about you. It doesn’t mean anything about you that they’re not hoovering. It means about them that they don’t think they can win. So, congratulations, you were strong enough to make this person think that they couldn’t win. That’s the way to look at it. And in a weird kind of way of thinking. It’s almost like we take it as an insult if they don’t Hoover us like wasn’t good enough, you know, why aren’t they it has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with them and about their wants, their needs, their desires, etc., etc. etc. So, the really, how do I explain this? The very antisocial ones tend to be the ones that do the hoovering. Okay? The ones who are not quite as antisocial. If there’s any chance of them not winning, they’re not going to Hoover. They’re not because you know it’s a rejection, and they can’t handle rejection. So do not take it personally. It is not you it is them.

If you think you made a mistake, I want you to go back through and think about why you broke up with them. If there was any disrespect, let’s talk about the deal breakers. Disrespect what is disrespect look like okay, lying, cheating, gaslighting, rewriting history. Stealing, stealing money, putting you down, name calling. Okay, those are all disrespects. You know what caused the breakup, write it out, you know, if there was any deal breaker in there, then that’s good enough. So, your list of deal breakers needs to be what behaviors you absolutely will not put up with. from anybody, like literally anybody. So, no lying, no cheating, no stealing, no disrespect, no gaslighting, no rewriting history. No putting you down. No, using your past against you. No making you do things that you’re not comfortable with. That’s a deal breaker. How many times have abusers convinced their target of abuse to engage in some sort of sexual act they didn’t want to engage in, especially if they’re sadistic, you know, or engage in a sexual act that’s going to be filmed or engage in some behavior that’s either illegal or dangerous, doing drugs, you know, stealing, etc., etc., etc. So, if there were any of these things going on in that relationship, and you left them because they were disrespectful, they lied. They cheated. They stole they gaslight. They rewrote history. They tried to get you to do things you were not comfortable with it did not value or appreciate your boundaries. They did not take no for an answer. They kept pushing and pushing and pushing. Those are all deal-breakers, guys. Those are all deal breakers. So go back through write it out. Why did you break up with them? There’s a reason we leave, and it’s not because they were great people. Okay, let’s be clear about that. Disrespect is disrespect. And when somebody shows me who they are, Ooh, boy, they’re gone. I don’t put up with that. I do not put up with those kinds of shenanigans. I really don’t. So, I’m And neither should you. So there that is, and if you’re confused, get to a therapist. Do not contact them. Do not contact them. Get to a therapist, work it get through, and talk out your list of deal breakers. How many deal breakers did they break to make you break up? So that’s going to help you.

How to deal with well-meaning clueless responses? Oh, my God. Okay. Well, all right. Now this person is either ignorant and does not understand abuse, or they’re minor narcissists themselves. Here’s what I believe in doing, I like to give some chances, not a great deal, but some chances. So, I would educate that friend. I would send them to watch these videos and help them understand why you went no contact. And if they say anything like that, again, that’s your clue. That’s a red flag. Does that make sense? So, once you’ve tried to educate somebody, and they continue to advocate for the abuser, you’re dealing with a flying monkey. So that’s the best way to kind of figure that out is that they’re advocating for the abuser. It’s like no healthy, normal people don’t do that. People are occluded. So, this is why I’m saying we need education. If we had more education, if this was taught in schools, like if this was taught in high schools, you know about what to watch out for when you’re dating, if this was taught in the psychology classes, which when I was going through school, they would not touch personality disorders with a 20-foot pole, because they were like, oh, that’s going to get gotten rid of No, it’s not. And it shouldn’t because that’s a disservice to the targets of abuse. So, it needs to be taught, this needs to be shared, this needs to be everyone on the face of this frickin planet needs to be able to recognize an abuser when they see one and not fall thrall to their BS, because they’re smooth. The’re con artists. They are con artists, they will say whatever they need to in order to get that narcissistic supply, but then their behavior does not match what they are saying. Hmm, does that make sense? So um, yeah. So, there is there is that

Okay when we are healing from abuse from a narcissist, who is basically put in a box and turn it on? It takes a long time, on average, and remember, we are now dealing with complicated grief. So complex, PTSD, thanks, abuser, and complicated grief, meaning we love them, but they abused us. So, there’s this conflicting diametrically opposed feeling going on of Wait a minute. I fell in love with them. I love them. But then they abused us, oh, my God, what the heck, how can I ever trust again, etc., etc., etc.

Kris Godinez  48:00

So, we’re dealing with complicated grief. So really, it’s important to grieve, it’s important to work through all of this stuff, CPTSD from surviving to thriving P. Walker, a grieving workbook is going to help you on average, and this is average, three years, on average, because the first year think about it, they do the devalue and discard. And it’s been brutal, brutal. They lied, they said horrible things. And we believed them for a little bit, you know, we finally got away from them. It’s done. But then we have to go through that first year. And this is with any grief. This was with any loss, you have to go through that first year. Oh, we used to do this. Oh, this is the anniversary of this. And this is their birthday. And this is when we did this. And this is when and you’re grieving the loss of somebody who is still alive. That is the hardest grief you are ever going to go through. And it is complicated. So, you’re going to need to work through the grief. You’re going to grieve the loss of the illusion that you fell in love with. And that’s the hard part because it’s like the beautiful illusion of everything we wanted, holy cow, the whole package, right? And then it turned out none of it was real. They were pretending they were play-acting. They had a mask on. So, we have to grieve the loss of what we thought we had. Then we allow ourselves to get angry at what was really there. And that’s another part of grief. Anger is a part of the grieving process. Okay, and we get angry that they put us through all of this, right? So, the second year is like, oh, okay, all right. This is kind of the new normal. All right, I’ve gone through it yet. Here are all these anniversaries not quite as bad. Okay. The third year is when we kind of start hitting our stride and start trusting again, but it takes about on average, which means 50% above 50% below on average, three years, and working on trust means working on trusting yourself. So that means working on Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, The Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker, and The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor or Lucia Cappacchione. CPTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, knowing you better than ever, you know what I’m saying? Because I love to lie to us and say, Oh, I know you better than you know yourself. Well, by the time they’re done with us, yeah, because they’ve literally put an eggbeater in our head. But here’s the truth, you know you better than anybody else, and you need to be rock solid in that certainty of who you are. Which means good self-esteem, no codependency, and no inner child issues. Do you see where I’m going with that? And you want to nail down any of the family of origin nails that are still sticking up. Because trust me, a narcissist will come along with a hammer and Wacom. So, you want to work on yourself. Knowing yourself is going to help you trusting yourself is going to help you to be able to trust other people and also to be able to read other people and also be able to see BS when you see a comment. So yeah, it does take time. It does take time, gentle with you, gentle with you work, the workbooks get with a good trauma therapist. Seriously, that’s going to help you.

All right, let’s see what we got; anything else that Okay, second part of this? I just feel weird about my body since being exploited or controlled. Oh, boy. Okay, so abusers make us feel shame about our body and our sexuality, like, you know, they will praise us for that. But then when they do the devalue in the discard, oh, you’re a whore, you’re this, you’re that it’s awful. So, here’s the thing you have got nothing to be ashamed of. They’re the ones that should be hanging their head, but they’re not going to cuz they’re not feeling they don’t have the empathy that we do. You’ve got nothing to feel ashamed of. Absolutely not. Your body is beautiful. Your sexuality is beautiful. And these asshats take advantage of that and make us feel shamed for our bodies, for our sexuality, for etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Give us a good trauma therapist; you got nothing to be ashamed of. Your body is beautiful. This is something that you can do in the mirror work. So, naked mirror work? I know, you know, people are like, Ah, no, yes, they can mirror work seriously. So, for example, let me give you a great example. My father was real, and I was completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. He belonged to every hardcore, fundamentalist Bible-thumping religion you could think of, and they were all body shaming all of them. Every single last one of them is that women were evil. The bodies were evil. And it was all women’s fault that men had lust thoughts because women were too pretty with a friend. Don’t get me started. So, I grew up with a lot of shame about my body, a lot of shame. It’s like I couldn’t wear a bikini until I was in my 30s. Because I was so like, oh my god, I can’t show my body. You know, screw that noise. So, what I started doing was Mirror work, obviously. But then I started doing naked mirror work. And I started loving every part of my body. It’s like. This body is beautiful. This body has a right to be naked. This body has a right to be loved. This body has a right to be loving this, but you know, and I just kept working on that until I got comfortable with my own body. And of course, you know, realize my dad was also sexually molesting me at this time. So, you know, it’s like all of the weird, weird stuff. So, what you do is you and do all of the messages that you got and you confirm Body Positive by doing the mirror work. And what you want to notice is okay. As soon as you start looking at yourself, does that inner critic suddenly go off on a tangent and start? Oh, you can’t let us know you look. We’re going to look at that little pouch. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, thank you for your input. Shut the bleep up. Why? Because I say so. You say so? I say so. I get to love my body, pooch, and everything. And if y’all don’t like it, y’all can go pound sand!  Go pound sand, but Bye now. See where I’m going with that. And you just keep working on it until you can look at yourself in the mirror and have nice thoughts. Seriously, we always; it’s just like I talked about how we never say anything nice to ourselves. Like we never tell ourselves what we did right. Which is why when doing mirror work, I recommended night. You do three things you did right. Hey, hi. Good to see you. Again. Here are three things you did right today. Same thing with our bodies. Look at your body. And notice what’s beautiful. All about it. Your body is beautiful. It is this wonderful meat skeleton that basically gets us through life. It’s amazing. The muscles are amazing. The fat is amazing. The body is amazing, and it’s beautiful, and it’s perfect. In its imperfection. It is perfect. But what they want to make us feel like is shame. And they want to make us feel like, oh, I can’t, I can’t wear a bikini or I can’t do this or I can’t screw that noise. No, you love you. You love you. You love your sexuality. It is okay for you to be sexual. It is okay for you to enjoy sex, it is okay for you to enjoy your body it is and anyone who tries to make you shame for that fear, obligation guilt. So, you tell them you write a letter, dear abuser, with your BS. I am no longer going to be held captive to your body shaming. Go bleep yourself sideways with an unlubricated baseball bat. Thank you very much. And when you’re done with that go pound sand. You see where we’re going without take your power back? Absolutely.

Okay, I think that is it. Yes. Okay. That is, it. So, next week, I’m going to have Marcia Diane on she has written a book. She is a fellow therapist. She is a wonderful, very calm, she’s so calm. Oh my god compared to me. She is so calm. Well, most people compared to me are so cool. She’s like, seriously, so calm. So anyway, so we’re going to be talking to Marcia Diane. And that’s it so you guys go have a great week. Take good care of yourselves. positive affirmations do the mirror work gentle with you; you have a right to exist. And I think that’s the big thing is that narcissists don’t want us to exist so we have a right to exist so they can go pound sand. All right, go have a great week guys, and I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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