Kris Godinez 00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA APA, or other therapist for that matter.

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Nature/nurture, so these are these are signs I do not want you to ignore these are not these are behaviors I do not want you to ignore. And I know this is going to be repeating for some of you because everybody’s on a different path on their journey. You know, some people are brand new to this, some people but out some people are just, you know, popping back in every once in a while. But I think it’s a really important thing to make sure that everybody understands what the diagnostic behaviors look like so that when somebody shows you who they are, you don’t do what some of my clients do and go oh, no, no, no, they wouldn’t do that. That’s not who they are. Bla. Bla. Bla. Bla. Bla. Bla.

You see where I’m going with that? It’s like no, no, this is who they are. This is how they act. So I want to start going through the cluster B’s. So cluster B’s are where you’re going to find your abusers. Cluster A’s is schizotypal schizoaffective. They don’t generally abuse. That’s more like a how to explain this is like schizophrenia, but not full-blown schizophrenia. It has aspects of schizophrenia, but it is not full-blown schizophrenia. So those are cluster A’s cluster C’s are like obsessive-compulsive; those two are generally not going to be abusive. If it’s just that… now, if it’s comorbid with a Cluster B, then yes.

Cluster B is going to be your anti-social, narcissistic, histrionic, borderline, and missing one. Good. Those, those, those, that is where you find your abusers. Okay, so we’re going to go through the behaviors. And I’m going to describe how those present so that you guys are looking for that when you’re out dating, or when you’re dealing with a co worker, or when you’re dealing with, you know, whatever.

So okay, let us start with anti-social personality disorder. Of course, I’m using the DSM five. So this is in the DSM five; this is page 659. anti-social personality disorder, a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others. So what does that mean? They have absolutely no empathy. They have no empathy; they don’t care about harming other people; they just disregard it. It’s like if somebody gets hurt in the process, oh, well, collateral damage, I had fun. That’s really how they think. So um, violation of rights of the others, robbing somebody, you know, lying to somebody in order to get financial gain, um, you know, doing something to harm somebody else so that it benefits them. Okay, so pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three only need three or more of the following. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest, kleptomania, arson, you know, physical fights, assaults,

Kris Godinez 04:09

that type of thing. So like, the rules do not apply to them, the law does not apply to them. So it’s kind of…how do I explain this. You know, in Phoenix for a while, we were having a really nasty rash of… And this was before COVID and everything. I don’t know if this is still going on. But we had a real nasty rash of street racers, and there were multiple accidents where innocent pedestrians, other cars, other drivers were getting killed in these crashes because of street racers, a blatant disregard for society. So it’s like societal rules do not apply to people with anti-social personality disorder. So um, it’s really important to pay attention. Is this person you’re dealing with… Are they doing things like that, or are they stealing? Are they getting into constant assaults? You know, are they constantly in trouble with the law are they constantly you know, white-collar crime, you know, that kind of thing that, that counts too so you know, failure to conform to social norms with respectful with respect to lawful behavior, so they’re always breaking the law, trespassing, you know, that kind of thing, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest, so be aware of that.

Deceitfulness, lying if their lips are moving, they are lying. Deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying. Use of aliases. Oh, boy, I cannot tell you how many clients I’ve had lo these 16 years of doing this, that got involved with somebody, especially from a dating site. I just… I hate those things. And they were using a fake name. They had a whole family, they, you know, they would come out on business, but they had a whole family wherever they were from, I mean, just crazy. Repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure. So that’s what that would be. So somebody who uses a fake name, somebody who lies all the time, conning other people, you know, calling people up… sob story, I need money, but then they do it again, like you know, a month or two later, you know, that kind of thing.

Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead. And this, you’re gonna find that in a lot of the cluster B’s, they are very, very impulsive. So and I don’t mean impulsive, like fun, impulsive, like, Hey, let’s go to Sedona this weekend. No, I mean, like impulsive. Like, they don’t think about the consequences. So when they do something, there’s not if A then B, that logic like, flew out the freakin window. So most people, not everybody, because common sense, not so common. Most people have some sense of common sense. If A then B, or let’s look at the consequences if I do that. If I do go to Sedona, do I have enough money to pay for it? Or am I going to be in credit card debt? You know what I’m saying? It’s like you think of the consequences? Like is this a good idea? Yes or no. Pro and con list. Right? Which you kind of do in your head. People with anti-social personality disorder don’t have that Put the brakes on, let’s stop and think about this. It’s want, do, want, do, want, do and that’s that’s no bueno. So, yeah, so, there’s an impulsivity. There’s a not a thinking of the consequences of what they’re saying. Or the consequences of what they’re doing. Or the consequences of committing this, you know, felonious act or whatever. So, yeah, so there is, there is that! You want to look at how impulsive are they. Do they think of the consequences? Do they measure their words?

Do they think before they speak now, if you’ll notice, and all of us have been there with cluster B’s, they rage. And when they rage, they tend to say the most horrible things with the intention to hurt, harm, damage, etc. When? Okay, that’s not thinking of the consequences. How is this going to affect the relationship? How is this going to affect my credibility? How is this going to affect… fill in the blank. So yeah, so yeah, there is that.

Irritability and aggressiveness as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults. Remember, I talked about that. So angry all the time, irritated all the time, but like 24/7, like short fuse,

Kris Godinez 08:48

easy to make angry, you know, it’s… you just need to look at them wrong. And that will cause them to go off on a, you know, tangent, and it’s their excuse to rage, is their excuse to get angry. So somebody who’s angry all the time, or who is really easy to anger. That’s a huge red flag, guys. Huge, ginormous because most people have got a pretty long fuse. Usually, you know, most people have got a pretty long fuse, and they’re able to kind of go okay, is this really something I need to be angry about? Okay, if I’m angry, what’s the fear that’s driving it? I’m, I’m afraid of getting hurt. Oh, well, there it is. You know, I mean, there’s like a, if A then B, right? But with somebody who is impulsive, there is no stopping to think about the emotion. They just go straight to the anger and act on it. So that is something to really take a look at.

Okay. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others. Now, my dad used to play chicken with us in the car. He was cray-cray. Let’s just be clear about that. He did. Cray-cray! Cray-cray! So he would play chicken with us in the car. He didn’t care if we got into a crash; in fact, in his head, if we died so much the better because he wouldn’t die alone because he was terrified of it. And B, we would go to heaven and be with God, and so wouldn’t, shouldn’t I be happy that he’s playing chicken? He was crazy. Did I mention that? Did I mention that my dad was completely nuts? So yeah, so it’s like this blatant disregard for self or others and it’s just like the people that were doing the drag racing, they didn’t care, they didn’t care if some innocent pedestrian innocent other driver got harmed, or hurt, or whatever, blatant disregard, you know, placing, placing the children in situations of danger, doing things that are dangerous without, you know, thinking of the consequences. Those are all huge red flags ginormous, and my dad used to do that on a daily frickin basis.

Okay, um, consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work or to honor financial obligations, which kind of goes hand in hand with the conning people. So anti-social personality disorder will rack up insane bills and then not want to pay for them. How many times have we heard of people, especially in Hollywood, you know, racking up huge hotel bills and then being like, Oh, I’m famous! I don’t need to pay for it. And I’m like, Are you smoking the ganja? What? You know, seriously, welcome to the real world; you have a bill honor it. Honor it. But no honor among thieves. So um, so they don’t, because they don’t think they need to pay it because they are above the rules. They’re, I’m above this rule. I don’t need to pay for my own stuff, blah, blah, blah. Or they refuse to hold down a job, come up with reasons why they can’t have a job ever. You know, and I’m not talking about real reasons. Like if you’ve got a disability, okay, yeah, that’s a real reason. Or if you’ve got, you know, other things going on that you literally cannot hold down a job. There’s, there’s reasons why people cannot. But if somebody is just playing the game, and not wanting to work and not wanting to, you know, honor their financial obligations, and you’re dealing with somebody who is, Oh, my God, anti-social. So the Oh, my God came from thinking of this absolute, a hole of a father who sent, I think it was 82,000 pennies to pay off the child support. And I’m just like, What a douche. What an absolute, you know, because he finally got caught, and he had to pay it. And so, instead of just doing the honorable thing and taking care of his own child, he decided to make it as difficult as possible for the spouse. Because in their minds, they think that money is going to the spouse, they don’t understand it’s going to support the child that you helped make. Don’t get me started because it’s not going to be pretty, and I’ll want to start swearing, and I can’t because I have a sponsor. So anyway, sorry. Okay, back to this. All right. So, so yeah, so that that would include not taking care of your kid not paying child support, not making sure that they have clothes, not making sure that they have an education, not making sure that they’re safe, not making sure that they have insurance, not making sure those are all anti-social. That’s crazy. You take care of your own period. Don’t even Oh my freaking god. Deep breath, deep breath, breathe, breathe.

Okay, so lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing, having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. So they shame, blame, rationalize and excuse. Hmm, what does that sound like? Interesting how all of the personality disorders start overlapping once you get further down the line, the spectrum, so yeah, they have no remorse. They…. Oh, well, I had to pay them and pennies because I had to be right. I had to get the last word I had to you made me right you know, I, I beat you because you made me how many times have we heard that? Yeah, it was my dad’s favorite things. It’s like well, you made me angry so I had to. If I could do the middle finger right now, I would! Yeah. Yeah. No excuse, there is no excuse. Harming hurting lying to conning cheating. No excuse, none. But these people, man, they don’t think they have to because they don’t have a conscience. There’s not that Jiminy Cricket on their shoulder going you know this is probably not a good idea. They don’t have that they cray-cray. Okay. So you want to watch for people that have absolutely no remorse or laugh at somebody having a hard day.

Kris Godinez 14:54

I never understood the type of person that enjoyed watching somebody else get hurt. I can’t do it. I can’t you know it’s like, I love Jackie Chan, but I could never watch his stuff at the end of the reel because it was always showing him getting hurt. And I’m like, I can’t watch this. I can’t. It’s too much. You know, but, you know, I’ve seen people watch other people get hurt, and they laugh. Like, it’s funny. And I’m just like, What the Bleep is wrong with you? Seriously, there is something seriously wrong with somebody that enjoys watching somebody else suffer. So that’s where you get into the sadism. So that’s part of it.

Okay, the individual is at least 18 years of age. There’s evidence of conduct disorder with onset before the age of 15. The occurrence of anti-social behavior is not exclusive during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar. So, you can have those when you have Bipolar, unmedicated or schizophrenia, unmedicated because remember, with schizophrenia, they’ve got an angel on one shoulder devil on the other, the two of them are yelling at each other, and the person is trying to make their way through life. And sometimes they have command hallucinations that also can occur with bipolar. So it would be, it’s bipolar with psychotic features. So just trying to differentiate, but anyway, we’re on a cluster B. So how am I… gonna go over, sorry. So that’s anti-social.

Borderline personality disorder a pervasive pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships, meaning they can’t seem to maintain friendships or relationships with family, it is constant drama, they are always at odds with someone. They are constantly fighting with someone. There’s no stability, though relationships are not stable. They’re not calm. They’re not; now I’m not talking lower end of it. I’m not talking traits of. I’m talking when you get, oh, to the Witch and the Queen. This is where you’re going to get the unstable relationships. Unstable sense of self and affix and marked impulsivity. So again, impulsivity. Isn’t that interesting, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five or more of the following frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. So

Kris Godinez 17:09

with somebody who’s got borderline personality disorder, you could say good morning to them one time; it would be perfectly fine. You could say good morning to them in exactly the same way. And they will come unglued and demand to know what you meant by that. Like seriously, because in their head, Alright, hold on. So in borderline, it has traits of all the major personality disorders, all of them, and it borders on psychotic thinking. So that’s the psychotic thinking. So in their head, they hear something completely different from Good morning in their head, they’re looking for danger all the time, it’s like the up Periscope is stuck, and it never comes down. So they will, in their head, create this whole story that isn’t even true. Ramped themselves up into a screaming Mimi, and take it out on the other person, you know, yelling at them, screaming at them, angry at them, and it’s all in their head. It’s not even real. So that’s, and that’s usually when you get to the Witch and the Queen, usually.

Okay, so frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. So they’ll, you know, they’ll make stuff up in their head. Or if they’re, if they are being abandoned, they will, you know, literally throw themselves on top of cars to stop people from leaving, you know, that extreme, extreme extreme, very extreme, a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating extremes, alternating extremes of idealization and devaluation. I love you, I hate you, I love you, I hate you. So and that’s not normal, that is not normal. That is not normal. It’s not. Relationships are steady; they’re stable. They may go up and down a little bit, but they’re not like this huge roller coaster of I love you, I love you, I love you. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. Ah, that’s a huge red flag.

Identity disturbance markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self, they don’t know who they are. And so they try on different personas, they try on things that they think are going to make them like themselves. So you know, for example, or so you’ll get a client, or you’ll get a person that doesn’t know who they are that has borderline that is on the more nasty end of the spectrum. And they will try to imitate people that they think will make other people like them just doesn’t make sense. So they don’t have a sense of who they are. They don’t have this, you know, sense of looking in the mirror and going, Hey, I like you. Hey, I know who I am. Hey, I’m gonna be me because they don’t know who me is. They don’t. So there’s a sense of always trying on different personas.

Impulsivity, and at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging. So spending, gambling, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating. Isn’t that interesting, reckless driving. Wow, impulsivity, Hmm, interesting. So these all start overlapping when you get further down the spectrum.

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats, or self-mutilating behavior. Okay. So down on the lower end of the spectrum, I do find that the quiet ones, the waif ones, do tend to do cutting because they’re trying to feel they’re trying to figure out what that emotion is. And they internalize, they internalize, it gets internalized, and so cutting in their minds, helps them to regulate and helps them to feel and helps them to figure out what they’re feeling. It’s not a good idea; I don’t recommend it. I recommend getting emotional regulation DBT Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. So as the person slides further and further down the line, the suicidal gestures and suicidal ideation becomes a form of manipulation. And so they use it to intimidate, terrorize, frighten, obligate whoever their target of abuse is. Does that make sense? So, yeah, when it gets down to the more dark triad end of it, or the more you know, Witch/ Queen end of it, it is used to terrorize, inflict fear and inflict obligation inflict, you know, you know, that kind of thing.

Kris Godinez 21:26

Okay. Oh, affective instability due to marked reactivity of mood, for example, intense episodes of dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety, usually lasting a few hours and rarely more than a few days. So, anger, anxious, sad, the whole thing they’re like, emotionally not able to regulate, like literally like, so if something had to explain this, something that a healthy person would be able to cope with somebody with Borderline would not be able to cope with it because of the thoughts that would cause them to start circling the drain, the thoughts are incredibly nasty, incredibly nasty. And it’s, yeah, it can cause that’s why they go into the rages. That’s why they go into the psychotic thinking; that’s why they go into it’s because of the thoughts.

And I want to point out Borderline is based in trauma. So the best way to treat borderline is DBT Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. And it’s important to get dialectic behavioral therapy because it teaches how to emotionally regulate so you’re not doing up here, down there, up here, down there, up here. And this is why this gets confused oftentimes with bipolar, and it’s not.

So Okay, chronic feelings of emptiness. They don’t think that they are loved even though they are. And that’s the sad thing. It’s like they don’t feel loved. They don’t feel understood. They don’t feel worthy, they don’t feel, and again, this is because the trauma is self-esteem issues, you know.

So inappropriate, intense anger, or difficulty controlling anger, frequent displays of temper, constant anger, or recurrent physical fights. That sounds a lot like anti-social. So yes, I’m going to go over a little bit. So they are always angry, always, always, always, always, always, always, always. And they look for reasons to be angry. It’s a way for them to get their anger out. I had a professor once. I think I told you about this, it’s in my book, and I wrote about it in the next one, too; that would literally come into class and say, I can’t wait to find somebody to nail so I can get my anger out. You have no business teaching, sir! So yeah, there’s that!

Transient stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. So sometimes, they can be incredibly paranoid. You’re all out to get me you’re trying to poison me you’re not you know, that whole thing or dissociative, lights are on engines running person has completely checked out.

Now, when they get down to the Witch and the Queen, they’re focused outwards; they’re not focused inwards, so the waif and the hermit tend to be a little bit more focused inwards. The Witch and the Queen are focused, or the Queen and the Witch are focused outwards, and they want to inflict harm or hurt, pain, whatever control it’s all about power and control power and control power and control. When they get down to the end, it is very unlikely that they are going to get help or that the help is going to help because they just don’t want to, they are enjoying the sadism they are enjoying inflicting harm inflicting pain. So again, you want to watch for people that have no empathy. Watch out for that! That’s no bueno.

Okay. Histrionic personality disorder, pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention-seeking beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts as indicated by five or more of the following is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention. And that sounds like narcissism. So yeah, they can’t stand not being the center of attention. I have seen disordered people ruin weddings, funerals, birthdays, births. Yeah. So somebody who constantly has to be the center of attention, that is a huge red flag. Because in a healthy normal thing, it’s like, oh, I’m at somebody’s wedding. It’s not about me, hello, I’m at somebody’s funeral. It’s not about me. But I have seen disordered people show up to funerals and act as if they were the chief mourner when they barely knew the person who dropped dead. That’s what these types do, okay.

Interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexual, seductive or provocative behavior. So again, they will be inappropriately, flirting, inappropriately dressed, you know, trying to get the attention sexually, you know, that type of thing.

Kris Godinez 26:01

Just really inappropriate. Like, you know, normal flirting, there’s normal flirting, and then there is histrionic personality disordered, flirting, and it is over the top. So, and that is something that I see in narcissists. And remember, all of the personality disorders start overlapping when you get further and further down the line. And I have seen narcissists do that when they are attempting to secure another line of supply. So something to take into account.

Displays, rapid shifting, and shallow expressions of emotions. So they’re not, they don’t, they don’t really feel what they’re feeling, they don’t feel the feels, you know, unless it’s an act, in which case, they’re doing the chief mourner, the, you know, the life of the party, pay attention to me kind of thing, but it’s not real. It’s not real. It’s like, you know, when somebody is being real, you know, when somebody is in the depth of an emotion, and they tend not to be constantly using physical appearance to draw attention to something, okay, yeah.

Has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail. So these are the ones that get stuck in a story. So this is, especially for you guys out on the dating sites. I don’t recommend it. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t like the dating sites. So what they do is they create this dramatic thing that’s going on, and they want you on their side, and they’re telling you the story, but there’s no details to it. What was their part in this? You know, why are they not speaking to this person? What is going on, you know, that kind of thing. So it’s, it’s very expressionistic and lacking in detail.

Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, or exaggerated expression of emotions over the top, over the top, over the top, Chief mourner, that kind of thing.

Is suggestible, easily influenced by others, or circumstances, so they don’t really have much of a moral compass. So if everybody’s doing it, you know, it’s like, you know, what your mom or dad used to say, well, if everybody was jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you? You know, you know, that kind of thing. And they would, because everybody’s doing it, you know. So again, it’s wanting to be part of that in crowds, very suggestible, very easily led.

Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are. So this is funny because this is what you will see with narcissists, so they will hook up with a supply and get them, and within a week or two, or maybe at the end of the month, they’re calling the person, their boyfriend or girlfriend. And you guys just met, you know, and so they’re making things more intimate than they really are. That’s histrionic.

I’m going to go over narcissistic. Okay, so this is what you guys need to watch for a pervasive pattern of grandiosity. So now remember, there’s different types of narcissists. There’s the overt ones which are me, me, me, me, me…look at me, look at me, look at me. Covert ones, which are akin to the borderline hermit. So those are the martyrs. So you know, I do all this for you; you don’t do anything for me. Look at what I’ve done for you. Oh, my, I have the vapors, you know, that kind of thing. So um, and then there is communal, which are the Jim Jones’s the cults kind of thing cult of personality, you know, using religion hiding behind the religion to manipulate and control and then you’ve got the somatic ones that are all about appearance. Okay, so there’s different types.

Pervasive pattern of grandiosity and fantasy or behavior need for admiration and lack of empathy. What does that sound like? That sounds like anti-social, beginning in early adulthood and present in a varity of context is indicated by five or more of the following has a grandiose sense of self-importance, exaggerates achievements and talents expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements.

So these are the ones that claim to have graduated from Yale, and they didn’t or claim that they have training in the seals, and they didn’t, or claim that they have some sort of military thing, and they don’t. So you know, when somebody tells you these things, you may want to verify them, especially if they sound too good to be true. So that’s what they do.

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. So everything has to be perfect. Their career has to be perfect. Their power has to be all-encompassing. They have to be acknowledged as the most brilliant person in the room, they have to be acknowledged as the most handsome or the most beautiful in the room, they have to have the perfect, you know, trophy wife or trophy husband, that’s what they look for.

Believes that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by or should associate with other high-status people or institutions. So they look down at people. They do they

Kris Godinez 30:57

they seriously are like, Oh, well, you’re not good enough for me, because I need to be associating with you know, I don’t know, the Rockefellers or some BS.

Requires excessive admiration. You’re constantly having to fluff them up. Constantly having to fluff them up. Yes, you are great. Yes, you are this. Yes. You are that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it’s never enough because they are a black hole. With a healthy, normal person. Hey, listen, everybody has days where you kind of go I don’t know about this. I need some reassurance. Okay, everybody does that. But it’s not an hourly minutely thing. With a narcissist, it is an hourly, minutely thing. There is never enough validation, reassurance, etc. Because they have got this absolute black hole where their soul should be, that is never going to get filled, ever, because there is not enough other esteem to fill it… ever. Because the voices in their heads are always going to be going, I need more, more, more, more, more, more. You know? So there’s that.

Okay, sense of entitlement. What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine. Let me say that again. Sense of entitlement. What’s mine is mine. And what’s yours is mine. Seriously. And they’re the type that will, you know, a good, good example. They’ll show up to a hotel or a restaurant, you know, made a reservation, they show up an hour and a half late, and they expect to be seated. They really do. I have seen narcissists show up and start screaming at the poor maitre d because maitre d can’t seat them because the reservation was given away because they didn’t bother showing up in time. And they will sit there and scream at the maitre d because of course, the maitre d is beneath them, and it doesn’t matter how they treat the maitre d, you know, and so they’re very sense of entitlement. Well, of course, you should give me the best seat in the house because I’m me, you know, and of course, you’re gonna seat me because I’m me, even though I’m an hour and a half late for my reservation, which sense of entitlement unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with their expectation. So these are the ones who tell you to jump and, if you don’t say how high, they will rage at you. These are the ones that will tell you to do something, and if you don’t do it, that second, they will rage at you. How dare you! How dare you not do what I want you to do when I want you to do it. Bla Bla bla, okay.

Lack of empathy seems to be an overarching thing, and all of the personality disorders, unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others, nobody else has needs except them. Literally. That is how they think nobody else has needs except me. That’s, that’s really that’s honest to God. That we have… Where’s my pen? Where’s my pen? I have no idea! My pen is gone. Okay, we mean nothing more to them than this cup, which is available on eBay. Shameless plug. We are an object to be used. That is it. We are objects to be used; we have no more meaning to them than something that can be used. And once we outlive our usefulness to them, they discard us. That’s when they start the devalue and discard. So these are behaviors guys I need you to pay attention to okay.

Is often envious of others or believe that others are envious of him or her. So they literally are always jealous; it’s competition. They are always jealous of somebody else that has something else. So let’s say the narcissist just bought a brand new car, right? But then somebody else shows up with a newer car or a different car or whatever, and they will be jealous like nobody’s business, and then they’ll start devaluing the car or the person or whatever. Everything is a competition to them. It is constantly a jealousy thing or an envious thing, and they think that other people are looking at them going, oh, you know, they, they’re jealous of me because I have so much because I’m so fabulous.

Kris Godinez 35:10

You know what I’m saying? So they’re constantly in this weird competition thing, and they think that other people are in competition with them because they are in competition with everybody. So that is something to look out for.

Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors, or attitudes, such as, you know, my doodoo doesn’t stink, that kind of thing. Um, arrogant, haughty, doesn’t bother to say hello to people, sticks their nose up in the air, you know, thinks they’re better than everybody else. Those are the behaviors to look out for.

Okay, I think yeah, that was, those are the cluster B’s, all of those behaviors you guys got to watch out for because as they get closer to the dark triad, narcissistic, psychopathic, control freak, Machiavellian, all of the personality disorders, as you just saw, start over laughing. Okay, and they will express all of those. And yes, you can have multiple personality disorders. You can be narcissistic and borderline. You can be histrionic and narcissistic. You can be it’s called comorbidity. So yes, you can have multiple personality disorders. And you can have cluster A’s along with a Cluster B, or cluster C, along with a Cluster B, or whatever. So yeah, it can all. Yep, it overlaps. So anyway…

In conclusion, to summarize, there’s too much to summarize. Okay, so basically, what I’m saying is to pay attention to the behaviors. Behaviors always speak louder than words. Seriously, how do they act? How do they treat people? You know, seriously, it’s like, are they arrogant, nasty, and treating the waitstaff horribly, or are they you know, putting on a show, but then behind closed doors, they’re horrible people, those are all things to pay attention to. So all of the things I just talked about, keep those in mind. Please do not ignore these behaviors. These are the diagnostic signs of somebody with cluster B’s. And these are the ones the cluster B’s are the ones that are the abusers. So please keep your eyes open and don’t fall for their pretty words because they can say the pretty words, but their behavior is heinous. So okay, let’s get to the questions since I have really gone way over time. Okay, where are we?

How do I find a trauma-informed therapist in a small town? You’re not going to. Let me be clear on that. The smaller the town, the harder it is to find a therapist that is trauma-informed because you have less to pick from, number one. And number two, honest to God, how many trauma-informed therapists are there out there that have been there done that know what to look for know how to help the client? Do you see where I’m going with that? So what you can do is you can go online, you can go to better help. You could look up Psychology Today, and what you’re looking for is somebody who is well-versed in trauma. So what are the recommendations? What who did they train under? There’s Bessel Van de Kolk. Okay, all you students out there. Bessel Van de Kolk is doing a training right now. I think it’s through PESI, on trauma, and how to help your clients with trauma. So, go get trained seriously. So if you’re looking for a trauma therapist, first of all, you’re going to, you’re going to ask them a bunch of questions. So you should be interviewing the therapist as much as the therapist is interviewing you. So when I talk to clients, you know, I kind of, tell me a little bit about what’s going on. And then I asked them, Do you have any questions? Let me tell you, you know what I know to help you feel comfortable choosing me as a therapist, you know, here’s my training. Here’s how many books I’ve written on trauma. Here’s, here’s my training on trauma. Here’s, you know, it’s like that kind of thing. So you should be asking them these questions. What is your training on trauma? What do you know about narcissistic abuse? Have you written any books? Do you know what you’re talking about? You know, that kind of thing. And I don’t get offended when you know, potential clients ask me that. It is so funny because I’ve heard some therapists, probably narcissists, come unglued when somebody wants to know their credentials, and I’m like, That is a client’s right to know what the therapist knows. Because you know it.

Kris Godinez 39:48

Don’t get me started. Anyway. The point being is you want to interview the therapists. Do they understand trauma and listen to me now, believe me later, if you get with a therapist and the therapist doesn’t know they’re a hole from a hole in the ground, fire them, fire them, go find another therapist. Absolutely, you’re probably going to have to go online; that’s going to be my guess. Because like, again, unless you luck out and you happen to have a really good trauma therapist that happens to live in a small town, it could happen. Gerard Butler might land in my lap; who knows? It could happen. But it’s not likely. But it could happen. So you find out, you ask. And if you don’t like what they’re telling you, then you go find one online that you can work with. And that’s in your state, and you can go anywhere in your state. That’s the thing. If they’re doing online, so, yeah. So there’s that. Okay, hope that answered that question.

Can a borderline personality disordered person also be narcissistic? Yes, absolutely. So again, it’s comorbidity they can have borderline and narcissism, narcissism and, you know, histrionic, you know, they can have all of them. Yeah, and it’s comorbid. So, if you’re recognizing, it’s like, damn, they’ve got this, and they’ve got that, and they’ve got this, and they’ve got that again, as they slide down the spectrum. Okay, as they get closer and closer to that dark triad. All of the personality disorders start overlapping and start expressing themselves. Yay. So run, do not walk to the nearest exit. It’s absolutely. Okay.

Do narcs have Munchausen by proxy? They can. It seems they’re always ill or near death and often use their childhood to seek medical attention. Okay, you’re talking two different things here, guys. Maybe I need to do another one on Munchausen. So what you’re talking about is hypochondria, so hypochondria is when somebody is always sick gets the latest disease gets you know, is always running to the doctor is always convinced they’re dying is always… that’s hypochondria, okay. So they’re always thinking that they’re ill, and yes, narcissists do, do that absofreakinglutely because they’re looking for the attention they’re looking for the narcissistic supply. Poor me. I’m sick. I’m going to the doctor bla bla bla bla bla, pay attention. You pay attention to me, pay attention to me. And by the way, let me talk about my bowels 24/7. I don’t know what it is with narcissists and their bowels. That’s all they ever want to talk about, especially when they’re older. So um, yes, that is hypochondria.

Now Munchausen, by proxy, is where they harm somebody else in order to get the attention. So I’m dating myself here. I don’t know if you guys remember the sixth sense with Bruce Willis. And one of the, one of the storylines in that was a little girl whose mother was poisoning her in order to get the attention of her having this mystery illness. And of course, the mother went too far and killed her. And that’s Munchausen by proxy that’s Munchausen by proxy. So they harm the kid, and they get the attention from the kid being in the hospital all the time or having a mystery illness or whatever. And yeah, do, do narcissists do that. You betcha. .

Kris Godinez 43:12

Oh hypochondria also is something that narcissists do because it’s narcissistic supply; it’s how they get the attention. Okay. Hold on. Um, I hope that answered the question.

Do narcs pretend to have a higher IQ? Ha, sorry, I laughed. Do narcs pretend to have a higher IQ than they really have? I have seen a narc who was cunning but not very intelligent, has never achieved anything but praised herself on how smart she was. Yes, absolutely. So narcissists think that they are literally smarter than, like, you know, Albert Einstein, they really do. They think that they are smarter than everybody, and they think that they are so cunning and so smart. Nobody has them figured out. The thing about narcissists is they can be smart. You know, my dad was an attorney, for sure. And he knew the law, but emotionally speaking, he was an idiot. God loved him. So they think that they’re smart in all areas of life and they are not, and they are usually the ones who sit there and go, I’m smart. I’m smart. I’m smart. I’m smart. I’m sorry. A lion does not need to announce that it’s a lion. Let me just say that again. A lion does not be to announce that it is a lion. You know, it’s a lion. Okay? But narcissists have to keep going. I’m smart. I’m smart. I’m smart. I’m smart because they’re waiting for people to be like, Oh, yes, of course, you are. You know what I’m saying? So yeah, they’re usually the ones who are constantly saying that they’re smart. Now, this is different. I want to make this very, very clear from somebody who has been abused in narcissistic families who were constantly told they were stupid, and now they are finally discovering that they’re smart. That’s a different thing when they kind of go, oh my god, I’m smart, but they’re not sitting there like yelling it to the world. Tell me how smart I am. They’re kind of like this realization that my family lied to me. I am smart, and that’s a beautiful thing. But a narcissist. Yes, a narcissist will tell total strangers how smart they are. They will insist on being acknowledged as being this brilliant person when they’re not, and they do overestimate their own cunning, they do overestimate their own smarts, etc. Narcissists are so arrogant and so stupid. This is, this is why thank God, most criminals are anti-social personality disorder, narcissistic, etc. And that’s what trips them up. They basically brag about what they’ve done, the anti-social ones, or they will, the narcissist who were the like stalkers and stuff will tell you ahead of time exactly what they’re gonna do. They tell you! They’re so stupid. They don’t believe in like, you know, surprise tack or whatever. They tell you what they’re going to do. And then they’re shocked when you go and file an order protection against them when they do it. And you have the text saying exactly what they’re going to do. It’s like, they’re no, they’re not that bright. They think they are, but they’re not. And yes, they do. Do the whole, I’m smart. I’m smart. I’m smart. I’m smart. Again, a lion doesn’t need to announce that they’re a lion. So um, alright.

What does normal flirting look like versus what histrionic flirting does? Okay, so histrionic flirting is over the top, like, over the top. So, normal flirting is that kind of, you know, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more. That’s a Monty Python thing. If you’re old enough to have watched Monty Python, you’ll know what I’m talking about. So, you know, it’s just not gonna go anywhere, not wanting it to go anywhere. You’re just flirting. It’s, you know, human beings do that babies flirt

Kris Godinez 46:56

babies are so cute. Oh, my God. So yeah, they flirt. You know, it’s just kind of smiling and, you know, that kind of thing. So that’s normal because it’s not intended to go anywhere. Normal flirting is just, you know, fun flirting. It’s, you know, no expectations, nothing. With a histrionic person, it is over the top. It is like, how do I explain it? Very sexual, very wanting it to go somewhere, very inappropriate. I don’t know how to explain it. But in flirting, you have to know your audience. You have to know your person that you’re flirting with, you know, and if they clearly don’t want that attention, you stop. Right? Histrionics don’t, they just keep plowing forward, and they are inappropriate and over the top, overly sexual, overly sexual, not just kind of flirting kind of funny kind of thing. But like, Bow Chicka, wow, over the top overly sexual wanting something out of it. It’s like that’s, I think is the difference is that with normal flirting is just like, you know, how you’re doing? You know, and you just go on with your day with, um, with a histrionic; it’s like they want something there is some ulterior motive to that flirting. Does that make sense? If it doesn’t, please, IM me. You guys. If you got questions, and I didn’t answer them here clearly, or if you have another question. Or, if you have a show that you would like me to do, go on to Facebook. We need to talk with Kris Godinez. IM me and just send me the show suggestion or send me the question that you’re confused about. And I’d be happy to answer it in between my other clients. So. I so hope that answered the question. So what’s the intention? So like, a normal flirty is like you don’t expect anything, you’re just kind of like, Oh, I’m gonna flirt, you know, this is fine, you know, then you go on with your day. With histrionic, it’s like, it’s, there’s an intention there. It’s like, they want something more than just the flirting. It’s overly sexual. It’s inappropriate, it’s, you know, it makes the other person uncomfortable. You know, that kind of thing. You don’t ever want anybody to be uncomfortable. You know, when, when attention is not wanted, a healthy normal person goes, oh, sorry, didn’t mean to cross that line. Okay, you know, and they back off with somebody with histrionic they don’t. They just keep going. And it’s over the top, inappropriate, overly sexual; that kind of thing makes the person uncomfortable. So, I hope that answered the question. Okay. How are we doing on time? Okay.

How do I remove myself from someone’s nasty and toxic presence? Who keeps on labeling me and screaming instead of talking and has been ignoring my request to not behave this way? You go, no contact. You absolutely go, no contact, you are under no obligation to put up with BS from anybody. Seriously. So if you’re with somebody, and let’s say they start flipping out, let’s say they start deregulating. And let’s say they start, you know, raging and screaming, what you quietly do is I’m not putting up with this behavior. I am leaving, and then you walk away, and you leave. Now that’s going to cause them probably to flip out even more, let them. Or if you’re on the phone, I’m sorry, I refuse to be treated this way, click or button. You know what I’m saying? You hang up; you don’t put up with it. So I think the thing for us is that we’re so concerned about harming or hurting another person. But in reality, when you are dealing with a narcissist, or a borderline that is malignant, okay, they’ve reached the point where they do the screaming, mimi stuff, they’ve got the psychotic thinking, they like harming people, they keep doing the behavior, even after you’ve said, I’m not putting up with it. What they’re doing is they’re pushing the envelope; they want to see how far you’re gonna go. They want to see if they can get away with it. Don’t let them get away with it. You walk away. You hang up on them. You don’t put up with it. You absolutely don’t. You go no contact. Absolutely. And then you draw really strong boundaries. If you want to be in a relationship with me, family member, friend, whatever, you will go get DBT therapy. And if you don’t, have a nice life; I wish you well.

Kris Godinez 51:03

Like, literally. I wish you were well! Does that make sense? So yeah, you don’t put up with that. So you remove yourself by going no contact, and drawing extremely strong boundaries, and don’t fall for the whole. You, you, you, you, you, guns. You made me. You. You’re this. You’re that. You, you know, that’s, that’s another clear sign you’re dealing with somebody who’s disordered because a healthy normal person takes responsibility for their own behavior. If somebody starts raging and screaming, and they’re still sitting there screaming at you going you, you, that’s when you go, we’re done. I’m not putting up with this. Have a nice life, bye and leave, or you hang up one of the two, and then don’t have a relationship with them; you cannot fix them, guys, you cannot fix them because you did not break them. Let me be clear on that. They need to fix themselves. Now. The only ones that can are the ones that are at the lower end of the spectrum. Once they start reaching the malignant and enjoying the drama triangles and the chaos and the harming and the hurting and the sadistic. They’re… no, they’re not interested in fixing themselves. They’re not. And you can’t help them. It’s not your job. You can, you can say you need help. But if they don’t go get it, you don’t need to be calling them the therapist for them. They need to be calling the therapist. Do you see where I’m going with that? You can only help the willing, basically. All right, let’s see if we got any other questions. Yes, we do.

Is it common to lose every bit of empathy once you once had for the narc parent after years of abuse? Yes. So here’s the deal. When we have been abused, and we finally see the abuse for what it is, and we stopped making excuses for the abuser, that empathy was it real, or was it the excuse-making that we did? So with my dad, you know, let me be clear, he chose, he chose. He had multiple times to get healthy. He had multiple opportunities to go get help, and he refused. So at that point, I kind of went; you’re on your own, dude. I just have suggestions. I don’t have advice. I just have suggestions, you know, so and he wouldn’t take any of the suggestions he wouldn’t listen to me. He wouldn’t listen to my sisters, wouldn’t listen to my mom. He had plenty of opportunities. Gave him books… wouldn’t read it, wouldn’t look at it. Wouldn’t take a look in the mirror. Wouldn’t do it. So there comes a point in time when it’s like reality therapy. So what’s the reality of this situation? Well, the reality is they’ve created their own hell. And I want no part of it. You know, yeah, you do lose that. I guess you could call it empathy, but it’s really not. Because true empathy. So okay, compassion versus idiot compassion. Idiot compassion is when we make excuses for them. Oh, the poor them! They had this horrible childhood. Oh, the poor them that da, da, da, da, da. So that’s idiot, compassionate. I need to be in their life to fix them. That’s idiot compassion. Compassion is where you can take a look at an abuser and go, wow, sucks to be you, dude. I see how you got here. And I’m not going to be in your life because I’m not going to allow you to abuse me anymore. You’ve got all the tools you need. You’re just not using them. Compassion versus idiot compassion. So we lose the idiot compassion, and we gain true compassion, which is they are responsible for their own lives and their own mess-ups. They have the tools, you know, they’ve been offered therapy. They know they’re behaving like jackasses, or maybe they don’t know they’re behaving like jackasses, or they do know that they behave like Jackasses they say they don’t know that they’re being like jackasses that’s on them, and you let them go. That’s not being not empathic. Wow, that was a lot of negatives. That’s the difference between compassion and idiot compassion. So you can have compassion for them. But you don’t have to have the abuser in your life because you cannot fix them because you did not break them.

Okay, let’s see how we are doing on time. I think that was the last question. Yes, it was. I stopped caring eventually about the narc and didn’t feel sad when she died. That’s normal, guys. That is normal. Can I just validate that for you just really quickly, when my dad died? We were not sad. Where’s my book? This one. I talked about it in here. What’s wrong with your dad? When my dad died, The family was not sad. He was dead. We were actually relieved. It was more whew!

Kris Godinez 55:40

dodged that bullet. Okay, don’t have to deal with that crazy anymore. You know, that’s literally what we did. And when we did cry, it was more a mourning of the loss of what could have been. If only. If only you were sane. If only he’d gotten help. If only he hadn’t decided to drink and drug himself into a stupor. If only, if only so, we were mourning the loss of what could have been. Did we mourn the loss of the actual person? Hell no. Hello, my mom and I sat on the couch, and my mom felt so guilty. And she was like, I feel so guilty. And I said why? And she said, because I don’t feel sad. He’s dead. And I’m like, congratulations, mom. None of us do. So that’s a normal response to the death of an abuser. So there’s that. Okay, guys. So that was it for today. I hope everybody has a great week. Please do take very good care of yourselves to drink your water, exercise, go and get some sunshine. And you guys all be good to each other, and I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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