We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

02-27-2022 Munchausen by Proxy
In this episode of We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez, Kris discusses how abusers use fake medical conditions to gain attention and sympathy by forcing their kids through unnecessary surgery and medications.

Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, let’s get down to the topic, shall we? Okay, so Munchausen by proxy. Munchausen by proxy, which is a factitious disorder. So, let’s, let’s read the factitious disorder from the Mayo Clinic. A factitious disorder is a serious mental disorder in which someone who deceives others by appearing sick, so Munchausen by proxy is where they make other people sick. Factitious disorders this one is where they make themselves sick. So these, these are, the ones that fake cancer you know, and get all the sympathy for having cancer, but they don’t really have cancer, those ones and then they you know, you hear in the news later on that they’ve ripped people off of 1000s of dollars and you know, make a wish and all sorts of stuff well make wishes for kids but that’s happened too.

So factitious disorder Okay, so they purposely getting, by getting sick purposely or by self-injury, factitious disorder can also happen when family members or caregivers falsely present others such as children, as being ill injured or impaired. factitious disorder symptoms can range from mild slight exaggeration of symptoms to severe previously called Munchausen syndrome. So there’s Munchausen syndrome when they’re doing it to themselves. It’s Munchausen by proxy when they’re doing it to somebody else. The person may make up symptoms or even tamper with medical tests to convince others that treatment such as high-risk surgery is needed. Factitious disorder is not the same as admitting medical problems for practical benefits, such as getting out of work or winning a lawsuit. Well, that’s kind of up there too. Although people with factitious disorder know they’re causing their symptoms or illness, they may not understand the reasons for their behaviors or recognize themselves as having a problem. And in fact, oftentimes when people with Munchausen by proxy are caught, they don’t get it, like they don’t see a problem… sound familiar? With their own behavior, which is what narcissists tend to do is that they don’t see a problem with their own behavior. So, there is that!

The factitious disorder is challenging to identify and hard to treat, I would say next to impossible. medical and psychiatric help are critical for preventing serious injury and death caused by the self-harm of this disorder. Factitious symptoms involve mimicking or producing illness or injury or exaggerating symptoms or impairment to deceive others. People are with the disorder go to great lengths to hide their deception. So, it may be difficult to realize that their symptoms are actually part of a serious mental health disorder. They continue with the deception, even without receiving any sort of visible benefit. So, the ones with Munchausen syndrome, and Munchausen by proxy. It’s like they’re not getting any financial benefit from it, but they’re getting something out of it. What’s… What are you getting out of it? That’s always the question. It’s like, what are they getting out of it? So, they’re getting sympathy they’re getting somebody they’re getting attention, they’re getting to Oh, poor you. Oh, you poor thing. Oh, you know, oh, your child is always sick. Oh, you did it and we’re gonna get into that by proxy in just a minute. So hang on. Okay, a bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, where are we…. continue with okay without receiving any visible benefit or reward when faced with objective evidence that doesn’t support their claim.

Factitious disorder signs and symptoms may include clever and convincing medical or psychological problems, extensive knowledge of medical terms and diseases. This is something that narcissists do as well. So, in these two disorders, with, with narcissists, they go online and they start reading up on psychological terms so that they can… remember I did a whole thing on flipping the terms using the terms, using psychological terms and they’re not a therapist. If you’re not a therapist or a counselor or anything like that. You’re not going to know all of these terms off the top of your head, and I’ll tell you what, narcissists do and Munchausen syndrome, they do medical terms. So, they know all of the medical conditions like more than a normal person would. It’s like you asked me medical terms, and I’m gonna be like, Oh, don’t ask me. Psychological I know. But I don’t know medical terms, almost like a look them up, right, but they’re able to just whip them out like that. So that’s kind of one of your clues, vague or inconsistent symptoms conditions that get worse for no apparent reason. conditions don’t respond as expected to standard therapies, seeking treatments from many different doctors or hospitals, and may include using a fake name, reluctance to allow doctors to talk to family or friends or to other health care professionals. So in other words, they will refuse to sign a release of information. That’s a huge red flag. So for all you new counselors out there, this is something you need to keep an eye on because this happens in abusive families. So they do the Munchausen by proxy. Right now we’re talking about Munchausen syndrome for the person themselves. But believe me, they’re out there, you’re going to have them as clients, it’s going to happen. So um, not willing not being willing to sign a release of information. That’s a huge red flag. That’s a huge red flag. Um, frequent stays in the hospital eagerness to have frequent testing or risky operations, many surgical scars or evidence of numerous procedures having few visitors when hospitalized people are tired of it. They’re tired of it, and they argue with the doctors and the staff.

Okay, now, this is what we’re talking about today. But I just wanted to I wanted to cover the factitious disorder for a person themselves because that too, will happen but they’re harming mostly themselves, they’re not harming kids. This next one, factitious disorder imposed on another that is Munchausen by proxy. So if you ever watched 6th sense, I don’t want to give too much of it away, because it’s got a surprise ending but and most people have seen it but it’s an older movie and it had a Munchausen by proxy storyline in it. And you should watch it because that is a great example of Munchausen by proxy. So Munchausen by proxy, they harm someone else to get the goodies. So in other words, they will they will get their child or insist that their child is sick or what I’ve also seen them do is insist their child is mentally ill or what I’ve also seen them do is insist that their child is grieving and desperately needs to have a grief counselor thing. So let me Okay, so Munchausen by proxy, they pathologize the child. And the reason they are doing that is because they want the attention they want the attention now was narcissists, not just Munchausen by proxy. Now, remember you can have both it can be co-morbid. You can have narcissism and factitious disorder. Yay, bad combination. So with a narcissist, they will pathologize their child. Why? Because it’s not just the attention that they’re getting. But for them, it’s because they need to blame the child for the child having behavioral issues.

Kris Godinez  08:26

Let me say that again. They know they’re screwing up their kid. They do. They don’t care. But they don’t want to be blamed for it. So they will say that the child has got some mental health issue. They’ll say, oh, it’s add? Oh, it’s because they have a DD or they’re just depressed, or they have this or they have that. They’re throwing out these diagnoses. Gnosis, you know what I’m saying? They’re throwing out all of these labels without ever having the child really taken in for an evaluation. Or they do take the child in for an evaluation and they bully, the primary care physician into giving a label. This happens all the time. It’s just like when, when patients go in and they have a common cold and they demand an antibacterial and it’s like, no, you don’t need antibiotics. This is a virus you need. You don’t need antibiotics, that’s not going to stop the cold, you know, so the doctors just doesn’t want to be bothered so they just prescribe it. So this is also happening. This is another reason why I’m so angry with the medical profession. This is also happening mental health-wise because remember, doctors get less than six weeks training in mental health issues that unless you go into psychiatry, so when somebody presents like that, and you’ve got a crazy narcissist, mother or crazy narcissist, Father, this tends to be more females that do Munchausen by proxy that males can do it too. So don’t just think that it’s automatically the mom. You also want to take a look at the dad and see what’s going on there. So don’t because you could be missing something if you’re not taking a holistic look at the whole family.

So what the Munchausen by proxy person will do is come into the Um, the doctor’s office and push and push and push and push and push and push and push in, the doctor will give in and give a diagnosis and start prescribing meds. I’ve seen kids as young as six, get prescribed ADHD meds, and I’m like, they’re six. SIX! Don’t get me started. It messes with their brains, it really does. You don’t want your kids on speed, if you don’t need to have them on speed, you know what I’m saying? So yeah, and then they start pointing to that as the reason why the child is getting in trouble in school, having behavioral issues, not doing well, etc, etc. because God forbid, the narcissist could ever look at themselves and go, Oh, geez, this is me. I’m causing all of this. You know, it’s just like, when my sister started having a lot of, you know, PTSD symptoms. Instead of going, Oh, she’s having PTSD symptoms, let’s go get her help. My dad was like, oh, it’s because of this, that and the other thing, it’s school. It’s this, it’s society. It’s, you know, never once took responsibility for the fact that he was the abuser, obviously, and, you know, was driving her crazy, like my poor sister would be up at night pacing back and forth, back and forth, because he used the communal narcissist the religion and would, you know, basically tell her she was going to hell unless she did everything that he said and was a perfect little, you know, religious girl and etc, etc, etc. And of course, nobody can live up to the narcissist standard, so she was convinced that satan was gonna pop up out of the floor and drag her into hell. So yeah, that would scare me too.

Kris Godinez  11:40

I never….for some reason, that one never got me. I think it was more along the lines, because I was just kind of like, well, I would basically throw holy water at it and tell him to go to hell, back to hell. So my sister wasn’t like that. So um, anyway. So they use the, the religious stuff to torment the child. And instead of going, Yes, this child has got anxiety. Yes, this child has got PTSD. They go, Oh, she’s, she’s mentally ill, or they’re mentally ill or he’s mentally ill or, you know, so this is why they do this crap. Okay, where was I?

Okay, factitious disorder imposed on another previously called Munchausen syndrome by proxy is when someone falsely claims that another person has got physical or psychological signs or symptoms of illness or causes injury or disease in another person with the intention of deceiving others. narcissist do this, they do this all the time. So why do they pathologize their children because they’re trying to cover their tracks? They’re trying to be like, Oh, it’s not me. Oh, you know, it’s not, it’s not because of me, this kid is screwed up because of their they’re sick. They’re this they’re you, you, you, you, you guns, six of them pointing back at them, two of them pointing out at the kid.

So this is something that mental health professionals absolutely and society in general needs to be aware of, if you have a child that is having all of these issues, but you’re talking to the kid and the kid seems pretty normal, that they’re saying, you know, the parents are going oh, well, this kid is you know, this that the other thing you got to start taking a look at that, that’s a red flag. So hold on, let me continue with this. People with this disorder present another person as sick, injured, or having problems functioning, claiming that medical attention is needed or they need to be on drugs, that’s usually what they do is they drug the kid out of their minds. Usually, this involves a parent harming a child, this form of abuse can put a child in serious danger or injury, or unnecessary medical care how those with factitious disorder fake illnesses, okay, because people with factitious disorder become experts at faking symptoms and diseases or inflicting real injuries upon themselves or others, it may be hard for health care professionals and loved ones to know that illnesses are real or not.

People with factitious disorder and factitious disorder by proxy, make up symptoms or cause illnesses in several ways such as exaggerating existing symptoms. When an actual medical or psychological condition exists, they may exaggerate the symptoms to make the person appear sicker, or more impaired than they are or themselves more impaired than they are, making up histories they may give loved ones, healthcare professionals, or support groups false medical history such as claiming to have had cancer or AIDS where they made false, falsified medical records to indicate an illness and this goes for the kids as well guys, faking symptoms, they fake symptoms such as stomach pains, passing out that’s not so much for the by proxy. They cause self-harm they make themselves or others sick, injecting themselves with bacteria, milk, gasoline, or feces. Oh, whoa. They may injure cut or burn themselves. They may take medications such as blood thinners or drugs for diabetes to mimic diseases. And they’ll do that to the kids. too they may also interfere with wound healing, such as reopening or reinfecting or infecting cuts and they do that with kids. Tampering they may manipulate medical instruments to skew results such as heating up thermometers, or they may tamper with test lab tests such as contaminating their urine with samples of blood or other substances. So okay that is that now let me go to the University of Michigan Health now this is specifically for factitious disorder by proxy.

So this is for Munchausen syndrome by proxy. All right, hang on a second. Let me get back over here. Okay. So Munchausen syndrome. Let me get rid of this one by proxy. All right. Okay. And what I love about the Michigan Health University of Michigan Health is they’re basically saying, if you think you’re being abused by proxy, you know, you might want to hide this website or erase your browser because this is what abusers do is they abuse their kids. And, you know, when the kids start catching on, they also start going through their phones and their computers and try to keep tabs on what they’re, you know, looking at and things like that.

Kris Godinez  16:14

So okay, Munchausen syndrome by proxy is a mental health problem in which a caregiver makes up or causes illness or injury in a person under his or her care such as a child, an elderly adult, or person who has a disability. Because vulnerable people are the victims. MSBP is a form of…Munchausen syndrome by proxy is a form of child abuse or elder abuse. Yes, they do this not just with children, they do it with the elderly. So if they’re, you know, trying to get something out of that elderly parents, they’ll make them sick. Yeah. Because remember, narcissists, want us dead. I cannot say that often enough. Narcissists want us dead and they want anybody they can use dead because there’s something that that person has that they want to own and especially if it’s an elderly person, they may hasten their death. Let’s just put, let’s just put it out there. Let’s be clear. So if you’re the caregiver to an elderly person, and the elderly person starts getting sick suddenly when they’ve been perfectly healthy before the caregiver came in, or if the caregiver goes away, and they start getting healthy again, same thing with kids. Then you’re dealing with Munchausen by proxy, you’ve got to watch for how the kids do when the caregiver, death giver is away. Does that make sense? Okay, hang on. Hang on. I see we’re getting lots of questions. I will get there in about 10 minutes. Okay, um, okay, it is child abuse.

Okay, so most cases are between a caregiver usually a mother not always, and a child. The rest of this topic we’ll deal with that relationship. But it is important to remember that Munchausen by proxy can involve any vulnerable person who has a caregiver. So the caregiver will lie about the child’s symptoms, they will change test results to make the child appear ill they’ll physically harm the child to produce symptoms. Victims are often small children, small children because they know this Mom, why? Because they know the child will not speak up. Okay. So they go for the most vulnerable the little ones and that just kills me. So or they’ll go for somebody who’s disabled or they’ll go for somebody who’s elderly again, it’s somebody who’s unlikely to make waves unlikely to cause a ruckus unlikely to you know, flag the doctor and be like, help me you know, I’m being abused this this woman is or this man is you know, causing me to be sick, you know, and they’re counting on the kids not having education on this which is why the Michigan University Health place warned about you might want to hide this because nine times out of 10 The parents are making sure that the kids don’t know anything so or that the elderly don’t know anything or whatever. Okay, um, who victims are most often small children they get painful medical tests they don’t need and the frickin narcissist Munchausen by proxy person loves it because their sadists, they enjoy it they enjoy the suffering. They may even become seriously ill or injured or may die because of the actions of the caregiver.

Children who are victims of MSBP can have lifelong physical and emotional problems, and may have Munchausen syndrome themselves as adults. This is a disorder in which a person causes or falsely reports his or her own symptoms. Munchausen what causes Munchausen by proxy? Doctors aren’t sure what causes it that it may be linked to problems during the abuser’s childhood. Abusers often feel like their lives are out of control. They often have poor self-esteem and cannot deal with stress or anxiety and the attention that the caregivers get from having a sick child may encourage their behavior. No. No may about it. It does encourage the behavior. Caregivers may get attention Not only from doctors and nurses but also from others in their community or social stress. For example, neighbors may try to help the family in many ways such as doing chores, bringing meals giving money.

Kris Godinez  20:12

So how does someone with Munchausen syndrome by proxy act, they will have on natural medical skills or experience seem devoted to the child looks for sympathy and attention. So here’s the thing. I’ve known plenty of parents that had kids that really did have cancer, or really did have a terminal illness or some disease or something they never once looked for sympathy ever. They were too busy surviving, and they were too busy making sure that that child had the best life they could possibly have. So when somebody is looking for sympathy poor me, tell me, you know, tell me how, how sad my life is, tell me, you know, whatever. So yeah, they’re looking for sympathy. Not normal. That’s not what parents who have sick children do, um, tries too hard to become close and friendly with the medical staff needs to feel powerful and in control does not see their behavior as harmful.

Okay, so what are the clues that a person may have Munchausen syndrome by proxy? Checking a child’s medical records for past tests, treatment, and hospital stays will help doctors and nurses find out if the health problem is real. And if like I said, if they refuse to sign a release of information, that’s a red flag, that’s a red flag, because they’re trying to hide stuff that’s a huge red flag. A child has repeated or unusual illness with no reason to be found. The child does not get better even with treatments that should help. Symptoms only occur when the caregiver is with or has recently been with the child. But symptoms go away or get better when the caregiver is not there or is being closely monitored. The other parent usually the father, but not always is not involved in the child’s treatment, even though the child’s condition may be serious. In other words, the person with Munchausen by proxy doesn’t want the other parent involved because the other parent, if they’re there all the time. The Munchausen by proxy parent who may also be a narcissist This is entirely possible is not going to get the chance to poison hurt, harm. reinfect inject whatever, because they’re being watched because the other parent is there. So they’ll they’ll be like, no, no, I’ve got it martyr. No, no, I’ve got it. I’ll take care of them and they’re within 24/7 But the other parent is not. That’s another huge red flag. Okay, um, okay. Doo doo doo doo doo.

A caregiver suddenly changes doctors and lies about prior testing and treatment, they will have doctor shopping, doctor shopping, doctor shopping, they’ll go from one doctor to another as soon as one doctor figures them out, they’ll go to another. You know, as soon as one figures them out, they’ll go to another and usually, it’s like if they run out of doctors wherever they are, they move. And then they start doctor shopping doctor shopping, doctor shopping. So yeah, that’s totally common with that. Mmm hmm.

Normal tests don’t reassure the caregiver. You know. So normally, you take your kid and you’re worried about something with your kid, your kid gets a test comes back normal Usually the parent is like, Thank You, Jesus, seriously, like thank god. Okay, we can relax. Everything’s good. With somebody with Munchausen by proxy, they don’t want normal tests, they’re pissed off by normal tests. It doesn’t reassure them. They start demanding more tests and different tests. And why don’t, why don’t you do this? Why don’t you do that? We know you’ve got to…no this can’t be right. So they do, they do that. Because a normal parent would be reassured… they may be upset, or they may be strangely calm or happy when the child’s condition is getting worse. So that’s, that’s a huge clue. So if one of my babies you know, one of my great-nieces, great-nephews, their condition was getting worse. I would be beside myself, I would absolutely be a wreck. With Munchausen by proxy, it’s like this. It’s kind of like that narcissistic smile that that kind of like, Ooh, good, you know, like, Oh, good. They’re sick. You know, that kind of crazy, that kind of thing. So they’re happy when the child is getting worse. So because they’re they’re cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Okay. Um, all right. They’re strangely calm or happy when the child’s condition is getting worse. The caregiver is seen or videotaped, or recorded, harming the child or causing symptoms which does happen. Watch Sixth Sense that this will make sense when you watch this movie. Another child in the family has had an unexplained illness or death so they don’t just suddenly do it to one they usually do it to all of them. So they’re usually there’s another child that is either died because they’ve miscalculated and they’ve killed them or…. Some of them get off on the kids dying because then they get sympathy for the child dying. So don’t get me started don’t get these okay,

How is it treated? Okay Child Protective Services law enforcement and doctors are all involved in the treatment for Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Caregivers who have this condition need long-term therapy. They may resist treatment, you think? because they don’t think anything’s wrong. They may resist treatment or deny that there is a problem medicines are used only when the caregiver has another health problem such as anxiety disorder, along with Munchausen by proxy. So in other words, there isn’t medicine that’s going to fix this. This is a behavioral issue. This is, this is a behavioral issue. This is not a the brain isn’t producing enough serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, this is a behavioral and they’re getting they’re getting ego stroked, sympathy, attention here. That’s their narcissistic supply if you will. So that’s their Munchausen by proxy supply. It’s the same thing. They’re getting sympathy so they’re enjoying the behavior. They’re enjoying the, you know, the child being ill, their status, they’re enjoying the fact that the doctors and nurses and the family and the society is all you know, oh, you poor thing. Let’s make you breakfast and you know, we’ll bring over this, we’ll bring over that. It’s a behavior issue. Okay. Um, okay.

Even after treatment, caregivers may repeat their behavior. Yes, that is statistically true. So doctors, counselors and family members need to closely watch how the caregiver interacts with his or her children.

For victims, the first step to protect the child is by moving them into safe custody. The doctor will monitor the child for symptoms most of the time the child’s symptoms stop after the child is away from the caregiver. Some children will need counseling or other help. And most children what to do if you think someone has Munchausen syndrome by proxy, it is child abuse people. If you suspect that a child is a victim, don’t confront the suspected caregiver that will make the problem worse. Instead, think about these options. This is why I love the University of Michigan Health. This is perfect. Keep a journal of the child’s symptoms and other related events. Talk to your doctor about your concerns because they are state-mandated reporters guys, don’t get me started! Report your concerns to the local child welfare agency you can make a report without using your name, it can just be an FYI, I just want you to know, here’s my concern, that kind of thing. So yeah, so Child Protective Services, Department of Child Protective Services, whatever it’s called in your state, that’s what you want to do. Because if you confront the person directly, it’s just like confronting a narcissist. They’re not going to, they’re not going to get it they’re not going to stop and in fact, they may move suddenly they may you know, harm the child more so the child can’t talk. You know, you don’t, don’t ever want to confront them directly. You want to go through your doctor, you want to go through DCS, you want to get other eyes on it. You know that kind of thing.

So, Anyway, this is a common thing with abuse it is and narcissists will do it because again, it gives them narcissistic supply. If they’re getting kudos for being the long-suffering especially think about it. Covert narcissist, what a covert narcissistic. They are the martyrs. So it’s always like, Oh, I’m always having to take care of this poor child and I can’t have a career and I’m sacrificing so much to take care of this poor child. And they’re looking for that, you know, oh, you, you, you poor thing. You’re so, you’re so noble. You’re so this. You’re so that. seriously gag me with a spoon. Seriously. It’s like, they’re doing that whole thing. So it’s narcissistic supply for them. You know, tell me, tell me how noble I am. Tell me how long-suffering I am. Give me the attention. Give me the attention. So it is very much closely related to narcissism. It really is when you think about it. So okay.

Kris Godinez  29:33

So that’s that. So it’s basically and let me, let me just give you an example that I’ve had to deal with in my practice. I don’t think I mentioned this in the book. But when I was working at the new song Center, here in town, it’s a children’s grief clinic. We had this one person that kept coming in and kept insisting that the children were grieving. And so she would go into the adult groups, the kids would go into the in the teen groups and whatever, and the kids started finally reporting to the, to the volunteers, they’re like, we’re not grieving. This was a person we didn’t even know. So basically what it was, is the mother was getting attention by going into these grief groups and insisting that the children were grieving. And she was grieving when it was really not. And so, you know, if you ever sat in on the groups, it was very histrionic, you know, I’m suffering this that the other thing giving the attention and the attention and I finally told them, I said, Nah, she’s not coming back. We interview the kids first. If the kids say there’s nothing going on, she’s not coming back. There are other children that need these spots. So because I was the coordinator at that time, so yeah, they do that they so you look for anything like that, where the parent is going, Oh, the children are doing this or the, you know, the pointing the finger at the kid? What are they getting out of it? So you want to take a look at that, you really truly do. If there is if you suspect if you’re a therapist, and you suspect the child is having, is having this happen, you’ve got to report it. You there’s no choice about that people. You’ve got to report it, and then it’s out of your hands. You know, unfortunately, it’s like once it gets into DCS hands. That’s huge. Pray to God that they do the right thing. Now, for my experience with DCS, they don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground. But you know, there that is so anyway, um, there is that. Okay, let’s start diving into the questions.

Okay. My ex faked having schizophrenia and gone on meth because it calmed his episodes. That’s BS. He never had an episode unless someone brought it up. Is that a form of Munchausen? Yes, that is absolutely. So here’s the thing. Schizophrenia is not helped by enough. In fact, you can have meth-induced schizophrenia. So that’s kind of a ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, Red Alert, that kind of thing. So you can have meth-induced schizophrenia. Absolutely. So yes, that is a form of Munchausen that is a form of Munchausen if they’re claiming that they have this disease, and that they have to take meth to make it better wrong. That does not happen. In fact, meth makes it worse. So because remember in schizophrenia, little, little brief, you know, education on schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a malfunctioning genome on the 23rd genome. For some reason, it gets toggled by a retrovirus. And when the person starts turning teenage years up to about 30 The hormones for some reason and the retrovirus, toggle it and then the brain is unable to filter out stimuli, and it gets misinterpreted. And so the brain will take in information and we’ll hear it as voices you can have auditory hallucinations, you can have visual hallucinations. And, and oftentimes, they’re not good oftentimes, it’s usually along the lines of angel on one side, devil on the other and they’re screaming at each other, or visual hallucinations. Usually, things like you look at an alarm clock and it’ll say die now, you know, that can be really scary. Or you look at somebody’s face, and it looks like they’re melting, you know, it’s like that kind of thing. So I mean, that’s really bad. Schizophrenia. I mean, you can have milder forms of it. You can have schizotypal and schizoaffective, which are kind of symptoms of schizophrenia, but not full-blown. So So yeah, meth is not going to help that that’s what that’s right. I’m calling it I’m calling it it’s just no, that’s not gonna help that so yes, that would be a form of looking for sympathy for having a mental health issue when in fact, they probably don’t.

Okay, can a person have both Munchausen and chosen by proxy? Yes, absofreakinglutely! Anything in the DSM five can be co-morbid. Let’s just… Let’s just be clear about that. So yeah, they could be harming themselves and they could be turned around and harming again. Because again, sympathy, narcissistic supply. They’re getting that ego supply. They’re getting that stroke. So yeah, they’re getting the attention that they want. Absolutely. They can be both at the same time.

My narc mom always pretended I was ill and needed meds or doctors and later on. She pretended to be ill, but she never saw a doctor. Yeah, absolutely.

Kris Godinez  34:35

Um, okay. My mom threatened to put me in a psych ward a lot as a kid trying to scare me into not having panic attacks. Oh, yeah, that’s gonna help. I’m going to put you in a psych ward don’t have a panic attack. That didn’t. Oh, yeah. Oh, that just huh? Okay. Um, but with others, she would trigger me so she could calm down. Yes. Is that a form? Yes, that is a form. So they say and do things that are going to trigger the kid into whatever, usually a panic attack. So they, either it’s interesting that your mom did the one extreme or the other. So it’s like, either they’re comforting like they’re, they’re triggering it so they can comfort you and they can be the hero, which is what Munchausen by proxy is all about, oh, I saved my child, oh, I comforted my child, you know, that’s, that’s another they’ll poison them or harm them or hurt them and then save them. That’s the really scary thing. And these kids get damaged physically, like nobody’s business. So they’ll trigger something, and then save them, or the opposite, you know, get annoyed that you’re having a panic attack and make all these threats that only make it worse. You know, if somebody’s trying to put me in a psych ward, I’d have a panic attack. Are you kidding me? Those are not nice places. Let’s be clear. And I talk about that in my book. So you want to be a therapist, because people have this strange idea that psych wards are this calm, peaceful, serene setting with nice men and clean white coats? And I’m like, no, no, it literally literally, is bedlam. It is not a good place. It is filled with people that are violent, and psychotic, and dangerous, and screaming at all hours of the day at night. And you don’t want to do that. You really don’t if you can avoid it, avoid it. So, but yeah, so they make these threats. And then it causes it to get worse. And then they get pissed, even though they’re the ones that are causing it. Again. There’s something aint right up there. Some may right up there. Does that make sense? Yeah, they do want to one of the other extremes that either, you know, causes it so that they can comfort it. Or they get angry because it’s not convenient for them. And so they make it worse. And then there’s some little part of them that’s enjoying this, trust me on that one because healthy normal people don’t enjoy seeing their kids have a panic attack because it scares them. So don’t get me started.

Um, does Munchausen by proxy lead to actual illness in the child? It can? Because you figure these people are doing things like injecting feces and other poisons into the kid’s body? Yeah, yeah, it could do serious permanent harm you betcha! So yeah, it can cause stuff, you know, they’re constantly messing with, you know, other medicines. So I’ve seen them.

Kris Godinez  37:33

Like I said, in that article, they’ll inject medicines into the kid that the kid doesn’t need, like diabetes medicines, or, you know, other medicines. And you know, that will mimic because they’ve done enough research, other diseases, and that’s how they get their narcissistic supply. And then the kid ends up with physical, real, physical issues afterwards, because the parent has effed with they’re, you know, trying to say, their chemistry, their body chemistry, that you know, they’ve done damage to organs, they’ve done damage to their central nervous system, they’ve done damage to you name it, I mean, these, these people truly need to be locked up seriously and never be around children ever. Okay? Yes, it can lead to an actual illness in the child because they mess with their, their symptom. Or their, their, their body chemistry.

Okay, question if they don’t help their sick kid and tell everyone that the child is mentally ill, and prevent them from getting mental, medical or physical, physical or psychological? Sorry, let me try that again. If they don’t help they’re sick child and tell everyone the child’s mentally ill and prevent them from getting medical or psychological help is that Munchausen by proxy? Outcome 75% physical disability that would be neglect. I don’t know if that’s if they’re telling everyone that the kid is ill. If they’re getting kudos for it, if they’re getting sympathy for it. Yeah, that would be kind of a form. But that’s neglect that is neglected child has an obvious issue. And they need medical intervention, whether that is psychological medical intervention or physical medical, medical intervention, then that’s neglect. That’s abuse. Absolutely. But if they’re telling everybody Oh, they’re mentally ill and other than that, but they’re not getting them the help. Yes, that would be considered a form of Munchausen by proxy as well. Absolutely. Because they’re getting sympathy for it. That’s the main thing that you’re looking for. Okay.

What happens to narcs as they get older in their 70s and 80s I heard my mom is more and more openly abusive at 88 years old. Okay. Yes. Absofreakinglutely. Narcs don’t get better guys. They don’t and Munchausen by proxy. They don’t get better either. Even with intervention, you remember what I said? Even with intervention, they often re-offend they often go back and do it again. So, with you Narcissists, as they age the little off topic but I’m gonna go there anyway with the narcissist as they age they collapse so it’s a collapsed narcissist. So when a narcissist is in their prime they can use status their looks, money, etc to keep supply coming in once a narcissist gets old and people are like done with them they’re getting less and less supply and once they are you know they don’t have their money they don’t have their looks they don’t have status they don’t have you know the things that they can use as leverage to get supply there now a collapsed narcissist so like I said, again, in the old age homes are filled with them, filled with them. They’re filled with these collapsed narcissists that still act like they’re, you know, the greatest thing since sliced bread and treat people like dirt and expect to be treated well. In the staffing nurse staffing people were just like, oh, my god, please go away, you know. So yeah, it’s filled with them, they do get worse. They absolutely. And they get angry. Oh, they get so angry when they get older. So they’re terrified. They’re terrified of dying. And we’re going to that’s going to be a topic in a few weeks, I want to talk about more about dealing with aging narcissists, wills, inheritance, all of that. But that’s going to be in a few weeks, because I got some other stuff I wanted to talk about first. So um, yes, they get worse as they get older. And they get angrier as they get older and they get more abusive. As they get on. They just don’t care. They just don’t care. They’re angry that they’re not getting their attention. They’re angry that people aren’t, you know, responding with how high do you want me to jump when they say jump, basically, is what’s happening. Control is being taken away from them as they age. They’re 88, 90 years old, they’re in a home. You know, they can’t just snap their fingers and quarter people around like they did their family because nobody’s gonna put up with that. So yeah, they do get worse as they get older. Absolutely. And they’re terrified of dying. And so they do crazy things to try to stop the aging process, which I’m always just like, Oh, dear God. Anyway, we’ll talk about that in a few weeks. But yes, they do get worse as they get older absolutely.

Okay, is staying with an extremely abusive partner for sympathy. A form of Munchausen is letting the kids be abused, but never leaving only crying to others. Yeah. Yeah. My mom fed off the drama. Daily. Yes, that would be Yeah. Because what are they doing? They’re staying in an abusive relationship. The kids are getting hurt. Because remember, kids are sponges, okay. And they learn from watching what’s going on. So by staying in an abusive relationship, you’re teaching the kids how to, you know, what’s, what’s an acceptable level of disrespect. So that’s why when people are thinking about leaving, they’ve got kids, I’m like, Get out if not for you then for the sake of the kids, because the longer you stay, you’re showing them how much disrespect you will put up with and that’s going to teach them how much disrespect to put up with so don’t stay. Don’t Don’t do it. Don’t do it. Frenchie. It’s not going to end well. So you know what I’m saying? So, yeah, you wanna you want to get out because otherwise Yes, I There are people Oh, god, yes, there are people that come and sit on my couch. And all they want to do is bitch and piss and whine and moan and get a you know, poor you. And I never do that. Because that’s not how I operate. And they just want to keep getting stuck in their story. And because they’re getting something out of it. What’s the payoff? That’s what I always tell people. It’s like, you’re stuck in your story. What’s the payoff? What are you getting out of this? Because I’m not going to give it to you. You know, either you’re moving forward or you’re getting out period because I… ain’t nobody got time for that. I got other people that want help that really want help. So I don’t have time to waste on you. If you’re going to be sitting there going poor me Poor me. Poor me. Poor me. Get out of your story. So yeah, so that’s yeah, that is that is a form of Munchausen by proxy. If they’re staying stuck in it, they know it’s abusive. They’re complaining to everybody and their dog, but they’re not making a single step forward to get their kids or themselves out of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because they’re getting sympathy. So that’s what you got to watch for. Absolutely. Now, in the beginning, yes, I will listen to them tell their story because they have to get it out. But if we’re doing this two-three months into it, and they’re still just stuck in that story about I’m a victim, I’m a victim. I’m a victim. I’m a no-no, you’re not you got options. Why aren’t you taking any of the options? Here’s an exit. Here’s an exit. Here’s an exit. Let me give you all the tools. Okay, you got all the tools? What are you doing?

Kris Godinez  44:40

You know, so if they’re doing that, and they’re staying stuck in their story? Yeah, they’re getting something out of being a victim. Absolutely. So those are the ones that it’s like, either you move and do the work. Or I will refer you out because I have other people that need help. So yeah, and I know that sounds cruel, and I know that sounds mean, but trust me If you’re dealing with somebody who is Munchausen by proxy who is getting off on the poor me sympathy, etc, they’re never going to change, ever. And they’re going to stay stuck in that story for the rest of their lives because that’s their identity. And that’s how they’re getting their ego strokes. And it’s not helping them. And it’s not helping the kids. So, yeah, there it is. Okay. All right. Um, all right.

Do they feed off the drama? Yes, they do. They absolutely feed off of the drama. So instead of, you know, working on the books, instead of working on, you know, going to the Fresh Start Women’s Resource Center or going and speaking to an attorney, or finding a free legal clinic, or whatever, they get stuck in, you know, the drama of it all. Oh, well, my, my spouse did this, that the other thing and terrible person. Yeah, they’re an abuser, we’ve gone over that, why do you think they’re ever going to act differently? That’s they’re never going to behave differently. And it’s not like, how do I explain with somebody who is looking to get out of an abusive relationship, they start doing the work, okay. And they start recognizing the intermittent positive rewards they do. And they’re able to go….. So, you know, my brain started going into this thing where I think they’re okay, and everything’s fine. And then they did this. And, boy, am I seeing it clearly now. So they’re working on it. Does that make sense? With somebody who’s stuck in Munchausen, how’s it, they don’t ever work on it, they don’t do the books, they don’t do the work. They don’t do the mirror work, they don’t really dive into how dysfunctional this relationship really is. You know, they come up with a bunch of stories about how aware and how awake they are. And they’re not, you know, and it’s, it’s interesting, it’s really, it’s almost like they’re, they’re lying about their situation. And they know they’re lying about the situation. And they’re just doing it to see if you’re going to call them on it. And I do every single time, because ain’t nobody got time for that. So, anyway, there that is okay.

Um, okay, say that this is caught early. Is there a recommended therapy to deal with somebody who has this? I would say DBT. Honestly, I would, I would treat it like a personality disorder, because I think it is a personality and a form of a personality disorder. It’s a behavioral thing. So I would say DBT, dialectic behavioral therapy, dialectic, behavioral therapy, which is basically westernized mindfulness. So what are you thinking? Why are you thinking? What are you getting out of this? Where did this come from? Who taught you this? Where did you learn this? Where did you learn this? Where did you first realize that if you hurt yourself or you hurt somebody else, that you got attention? Where did this come from? You know, mindfulness. So dialectic behavioral therapy, D. B. T. that is the only known modality that works the best CBT can work but DBT is better for personality disorders. So I would say that one so for sure. Okay. How are we doing on time? We’re good.

Okay, um, do parents with Munchausen by proxy claim or use learning disabilities? Yes, such as ADHD or autism? Yes, as a way to get sympathy and attention or to look like the hero absofreakinglutely. And I talked about that in the, in the lecture, the lecture, whatever I’m talking about, you know what I’m saying? So yes, they do that they will claim that the child has autism when they don’t, or the child has a mild form of autism, and they exaggerate it. Or they’ll claim that the kid has got ADHD/ADD something like that when they don’t, or the child has a mild form of it, and they exaggerate absofreakinglutely! They pathologize the children so that they can point to the child and go, the child’s the problem. The child is the problem. I’m not to blame for their behavioral issues, and then they start dumping drugs on them when they’re itty bitty. And that’s wrong. Because the brain doesn’t finish forming until you’re like late 20s like 25 to 28 The brain is still forming synapses, synapse size synapses, those things that go together. They’re they’re forming right and so you don’t want to be dumping a bunch of psychotropic drugs onto that and mess with those formations. So but these narcissistic parents drug ‘em, drug them, I don’t, I want them, I want them submissive drug em, you know put them on something that’s going to calm them down drug a  six-year-olds are six-year-olds guys, they bounce all over the place. That’s what six-year-olds do. ADHD really doesn’t isn’t really able to be diagnosed properly until the children are having to be in a situation where they have to sit for a long period of time. Now that’s not talking first grade, second grade, we’re talking more like, you know, third, fourth, you know, after they Been in the school for a while and know what’s expected of them. They’re still like getting up and walking around this time. The other thing, okay, yeah, there’s probably a problem. But to diagnose a six-year-old, a five-year-old with ADHD is unethical if you want my personal opinion. So, there it is. All right, um, how are we doing? Okay, we’re doing good. Okay, um, yes, they do use learning disabilities, they do use autism. They use it to get sympathy they use it to Yeah, absolutely. Or to look like the hero absofreakinglutely. Because, you know, here’s the thing. Again, people that have got children that have learning disabilities, and I’ve got children that have had autistic or have autism. They don’t… look at me. Look at me. Look at me, right? Does that does that? Does that sound narcissistic? Yet? Sure does to me. I don’t know about you. But it sure as heck sounds narcissistic to me. If you’ve got a child you’re not worried about Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. You’re worried about that kid getting the best education the best preparation for life that you possibly can. Here’s the tools. Here’s the tools. Here’s the tools. Okay, let’s practice them. Okay, we got a good job. You know, that’s what you’re doing for that child. You’re not going, Oh, poor me. My child has got you know, ADHD or autism or ADD or some other mental health, I don’t know, you’re focused on getting that kid as best prepared to go on through life without you as possible. That is what a good parent does a good parent hands, the kids all the tools teaches them how to use it. And then if the parent gets struck by a bus, God forbid, the kid has got enough tools to be able to go through life and deal, okay. But with narcissistic parents, they don’t teach us Jack diddly squat, we have to kind of come out into adulthood and go oh, because we don’t because they didn’t bother teaching us a damn thing. So then we have to figure out all those life skills, you know how to balance a checkbook, how to, how to, you know, do social things, how to, you know, they don’t teach us, they don’t teach us. And so we have to teach ourselves. So a good parent’s job is to teach the kid all of these skills so you can as many as you possibly can. So that if something happens to the parent, the kid has got enough skills, enough tools, and enough savvy to be able to go through life without you. I know. It’s kind of a fatalistic way of looking at things. But that’s really what being a parent is, it’s to make sure that they’re going to be okay without you. Whereas a narcissist, they could give two flying rat’s asses. All they want to do is have their ego stroked, and that’s it and they don’t bother teaching the kids Jack diddly squat. And then we come out of those kinds of relationships, those familial, familial relationships going out and got not clue one, and then we have to figure it out on our own. So, yeah, there it is. So anyway, there’s that. Okay. Um, okay.

Um, my mom is a covert narcissist. Brother acted out. When she divorced his dad. He acted out and was diagnosed with ADHD. I think therapy would help him. But he has grown distant with me. Advice? Okay, so it’s hard, dealing with siblings that are, you know, distant. You know, I’m sure that’s being encouraged by the abuser because that’s usually what abusers do is divide and conquer. It’s like, make sure that you’re not able to speak to siblings and all that stuff. So try to reestablish content, encourage him to work on self-esteem. You know, the self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi that’s a great one. You are a badass by Jensen, Sincero. That’s another great one. You want to work on self-esteem because the number one thing that these Jack wagons do to us is they rip our self-esteem away from us. They label us with diseases that we may or may not have. And they take away our sense of self. So it’s really important to start working on self-esteem. Absolutely.

Okay, um, is it common for Munchausen by proxy parents to put drugs in their kid’s food absofreakinglutely. What better way to poison your child than to put it into food? Where nobody’s watching and nobody would think about it. Don’t get me started. Yes, they will put they will put psych meds in there. You know downers whatever to make them go to sleep. They’ll they’ll put whatever drugs that will make the kid mimic whatever disease they say the kid has. Yeah, they’ll absolutely put in their food. Yes, absolutely. They’ll inject it. They’ll put it in their food. They’ll you know, however they can make the child feel they will and their depravity knows no bounds. Okay. I think that is all the questions for today. Go have a wonderful, wonderful week. All right, my love’s talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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