We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

03-07-2021 THE DRAMA AND COMMUNICATION TRIANGLE
In This episode of We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez, Kris discusses the dreaded drama triangle (Villain, Victim, Hero) and the dreaded triangulation of communication. She goes over how to step out of both sets of dysfunctional triangles and how to stay out!

Transcript

Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  00:27

Okay, here we go buckle in. Alright, so, what we are talking about today is triangulation of communication and the drama triangle so, abusers always need to have drama the way that the rest of us need oxygen seriously, so it’s always the hero, the victim and the villain and usually they play the hero so in their little heads in their little storyline, they are the hero you’re the villain and whoever their new supply is, is the victim This generally this starts early on and we don’t even recognize it so usually what ends up happening is so, in an abusive relationship we’re going to talk about triangulation and communication too because this all plays in, they are all interconnected they’re all one this all plays into each other so in an abusive relationship the love bombing starts right so love bomb, love bomb, love bomb. You’re the best thing ever. Oh my God my ex was crazy. Remember that whole story about oh the ex is crazy and all of this stuff. And then as the abuse clock ticks along its little merry way suddenly it starts sliding into devalue and discard and then abuse and then you know love bombing and then it starts all over again. Generally, what ends up happening is when they’re about to really abuse, really discard, really do their whole thing, they start bringing up the ghost of the ex they’ll start bringing up, you remind me exactly of my ex husband you remind me exactly of my ex wife you act just like them. What? No, because in the beginning, they were like, you’re perfect you’re wonderful you’re this you’re that, well if you look/act just like them why would they be having anything to do with you? So, this is part of their game and so what it does, is even if there is not a new supply involved which generally there is because remember they’re constantly on the lookout for new supply new supply new supply or extra supply extra supply extra supply remember they like to have harems of people you know male female doesn’t matter as long as somebody is stroking their ego or other things they want more, more more, more, more. Me, me, me, I my genitals basically that is how they think. So they will bring up the ghost of the ex. This is during the discard phase and they will say you act just like them, they’re doing the you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, guns. So, the second you hear anybody doing that you’re just like my ex you’re this you’re that, you, you, you, I’m sorry. They’re talking about themselves because remember two fingers pointed out six pointed right back at ‘em. So, they live for that triangle and so in this triangle, you’re the villain you know the ex is the villain but they’re the victim so it’s really, it’s really twisted and it’s a competition so they’re making you compete against the ghost of the ex and they will do that and they’ll do it in multiple ways so either it’s either it’s you’re just like the ex or oh you know my ex was so you know did this that the other almost like they flip the script and now they go from the ex is crazy to the ex was perfect. Cuckoo. And if you’re in cognitive dissonance, right, where incoming information doesn’t match reality and you’re constantly in the fog, fear, obligation guilt. This is going to, this is essentially like taking a blender to your brain, really. So, because it’s just like brrrrrr. What?

Kris Godinez  04:34

So, then the target of abuse twists themselves into a pretzel to try to please the abuser to try to please the person who’s like, well, you’re like my ex, or my ex was so perfect because now you’re in competition with the ghost to somebody who’s not even still around. And it’s crazy and it’s crazy making and it’s a way to control. It’s a way to manipulate, it’s a way to put down. So, remember in the love bombing phase, they’re gathering all of this information there. They’re mining, they’re mining for information in the love bombing phase to be used later in the triangulation phase so, let’s say that it’s not the ex that they’re making you compete against and that’s something that they do so, oh you know my ex dressed, you she was crazy, but they she dressed or he dressed to the nines, and how come you don’t do that you know that kind of thing? It’s competition. Because remember with Narcissists and this goes for family of origin Narcissists and romantic partners and narcissistic bosses you know and anybody disorder basically, they constantly put people into competition you know well this person was better than you. How come you’re not doing what this person is? How could this, is the line that always got me and my dad pulled this one it was like, “Why can’t you be more like your big sister?” ‘Cause I’m not my big sister. Thanks for playing but so they would do that they would set up these competitions that make no sense you know it’s like well why can’t you be like your big brother? Why can’t you be like your little sister? Why can’t you be like so and so? Why can you… bosses do that how come you know so and so stays until two o’clock in the morning Why don’t you you know cuz I want a life Thank you. So it’s a competition, competition so there’s always a third person that we are competing with or that we are striving to not be like because then they’ll say oh you’re just like my ex. Oh you’re just like so and so. Oh, you’re just the second you hear that? That should be warning bells should be like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! Going off in your head, seriously! Because that is a huge red flag that they are comparing you, that they are setting you up and that you’re never going to be good enough, seriously! And, and it’s, it’s intentional. It’s intentional and it’s on purpose and they think about it. They do! So, I love it when people are like, “Oh no they’re not that mean.” Yeah, they are! just shut, zip it! Read everything I’ve read then come back and tell me that! No, they know what they’re doing. They know what they’re doing. This is absolutely intentional. So, the drama triangle always involves a third, so, it could be a mother-in-law it could be their mom, their dad, their, you know maybe their sister, you know or whatever. There’s always somebody in there that you are having to prove yourself to or you’re having to defend yourself against or you’re having to whatever. So, it’s, it’s a drama triangle. There’s always a third person always, always, always! It’s not always romantic, it’s sometimes it’s familial, you know? So, they will drag a third person into it. So, when a narcissist is in meshed with their narcissistic family, they will drag the parents into the relationship so that too is a drama triangle because you know now, we’ve got the villain the victim and the hero he’s the hero they’re the victim you’re the villain you know so he or she’s the hero because remember women can be abusive too, so Um, so yeah, so the drama triangle always pulls in a third party into whatever is going on whether that’s family, a boss, friends, whatever. Now, this leads nicely into communication. But, hold on! Let me make sure that I got everything I want. Oh, competitions Yeah, I talked about that. Um, the ghost of somebody who’s not even there. Yeah, and they’ll even do that when they are thinking of leaving you so like maybe they haven’t supplied the gotten their supply completely

Kris Godinez  08:29

in their evil grasp kind of thing. But they will tell you Oh, well so and so does this for me and so and so does that for me. And, you know, why aren’t you doing this? Again, the ghost of somebody who’s not even there. So, they bring in third parties. And they use whatever they’ve mined earlier on to use against you. So, if for example, you are truthful, upstanding, you know, kind, gentle, whatever, and their ex wasn’t, or their ex, you know, really was and they were just projecting, they will tell you that you’re none of the things that you are. And this is why when people come out of these relationships, they are so lost. Like, seriously! Like, we come out of these relationships going, who am I? I don’t, I don’t even know? I’ve lost the person I was you know? I’ve lost my sense of humor. I’ve lost my certainty. I’ve lost my self-esteem. I’ve lost my self-respect. I’ve lost, you know, it’s like we lose all of this stuff. Because they’re over there snickering and going, haha, how can I make you doubt yourself? We come out of these relationships with a ginormous amount of self-doubt. That is their intention. Because we’re doubting ourselves constantly and we’re looking for confirmation or approval. And they’re gaslighting, rewriting history, lying, cheating, stealing, whatever they do. You know, we’re constantly on shaky ground. It’s like It’s like being on a liquified ground in the middle of an earthquake, you know, it liquefies, it goes blupblupblup and then you’re like, “Aaaahh!” and then you die. So, you know, it really is it’s, it’s like you’re never on solid ground with these people. And that is in tensional. And the competition, the triangle, the villain, the victim, the hero, that is intentional to because if they can create the drama, and I will get to the communication triangle, hold on, I got more to say about this. If they can create drama, okay, if they can be world class drama creators, if they can make all of this stuff go on, and you’re chasing your tail, trying to get them to love you, or to respect you or to treat you the way they did during the love bombing phase, then you’re not looking at what’s really going on. You’re so focused on this drama, because it’s like right there, right? That you’re not looking at the big picture going, wait a minute, people who love, don’t torture, the person they supposedly love. Let me just say that again. People who love do not torture, the person that they supposedly love, they do not say hurtful, horrible, absolutely false things about the person they love. So, in other words, when they start doing that, you’re just like my ex, oh, well, everyone lies you know, you’re a liar. And everyone lies dadada, that no everyone doesn’t lie. You know, and, and, and we’re going to get into the triangulation of communication. This is where all of their crazy thinking kind of plays into the triangulation of communication. So, okay, so they need drama, because it’s, it’s a smokescreen. Think of it that way. Anybody who creates drama, seriously, anybody who creates just this ridiculous amount of drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, starting fights over here starting fights over there constantly fighting, they cannot not. So, one of two things. So, either they’re super charming, and nobody can see their, their true selves, or they’re so disordered. And usually when they slide further down the line, they’re so disordered, that they cannot not get into arguments with damn near everybody. So, like, they’ll start fights with City Hall, they’ll start fights with, you know, colleges, they’ll start fights with people down the street, they’ll start fights with supposed friends, they’ll start you know, they’ll just do all this crazy stuff, because they can’t stand the quiet and they need the smokescreen so that they’re hoping that the target of abuse is not focusing in on this is crazy. This is not what normal people do. They’re hoping that the target of abuse is so wrapped up in oh my gosh, all this drama is going on. And if the target of abuse is codependent, they’re going to be wrapped up in saving the abuser from the drama. So, let’s say they start something with City Hall. Well, I have to defend my partner and I have to do that or let’s say the family sees the abuser for what they are. Well, I have to defend them and I have to dadadada, that and that sets up the Stockholm Syndrome Romeo and Juliet syndrome etc, etc, etc, which is then going to play into the triangulation of communication. Let us speak about that. Okay, so just to kind of wrap up Sorry, I know I keep saying I’m going to talk about it and I’m like wait a minute, I got to talk about this. So just to wrap up the drama triangle. They either play the victim or they play the hero one of the two, they’re never the villain ever in their own story, ever, never! These, these people do not ever contemplate the universe and go “What is my part in this” ever. Which is also why they never apologize and which is why they’re always looking for somebody to blame because they cannot take personal responsibility for jack diddly squat. So okay, so they need the drama to create a smokescreen to take the attention off of them put it onto somebody else either be the victim you know like “Oh, look at how horribly these people are talking about me blah blah blah” we’re just gonna play into communication triangulation of communication, or “Oh, this drama this drama I need to be saved” because that’s what covert Narcissists do and then the target of abuse codependent goes “Oh, let me save you let me fix this. Let me make this right. Let me show you that I love you Let me you know”, but then it goes right back into Okay, well that drama is over and who else can I create drama with? There are very few breaks in the drama that goes on. When they do get a new supply. They are the hero. Their new supply is the victim, you are the villain or they are the hero. The kids are the victim. You are the villain in every single case. You are the villain. So just realize this is just never going to go your way when you recognize a drama triangle. Step the hell out! Step the hell out! The best way to win, is to not play! Now, let’s talk about communication triangles. So, what abusers love to do is to play operator. You remember that old game of operator when somebody would say something at one end and then 20 Kids later it was completely different so somebody could say like I like strawberry ice cream and it would end up you know I’m going to the moon or you know something that doesn’t even sound like I like strawberry ice cream well that’s intentional on the part of the abusers this happens in offices. This happens in families this happens in romantic relationships. This happens in friendships that are toxic so all of the above are toxic, I just want to make that perfectly clear Hang on.

Kris Godinez  15:37

So, what the abuser does is they play a game of telephone. So, it too is a triangle. So up here is the operator and at the two other corners are the people that they are triangulating with. So, if they can get all communication to go through them, they are in charge of the situation they can control the narrative they can control what is said how it said who knows what etc and that’s intentional and this you often find in dysfunctional families. So, you’ll have a narcissistic or disordered parent of some sort, they will control the narrative they set up the division they set up the competition. Remember how I talked about competition and drama triangles? This goes with kids so think about it how many dysfunctional families how many of us came from dysfunctional families where the narcissist would set up divide and conquer set one kid against the other? Raise your hand Hello? Oh, yeah, they would and so they would tell a story to one kid not tell the same story to the other kid you know, kind of put dispersions on the other kid then the other kid starts you know, making assumptions about the other kid next thing you know, these two are not talking and that’s intentional. Because now the abuser has the control of the narrative. And the abuser has control of who says what to whom. So, what abusers love to do is they’ll okay let’s call this Okay, so here’s the abuser at the top this is the operator then we’ve got B and C okay these are the two people that they’re controlling. So, what will happen is, is that the abuser will go to B and say “Well C said such and such about you or C is doing this that the other thing” and then this person will get upset and go “Well you need to tell C bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla” and then the narcissist gets the recognition smile. Have you guys ever seen the recognition smile? So, when a narc is playing a game, okay, and they’re intentionally manipulating and they are intentionally controlling and they’re intentionally doing this messed up little agenda and you fall into their game, they get this little, little snarky smile at huh oh yeah. It is delicious. Yeah, they recognize because they realize that oh, they gotcha they did the cast line, reeled it back in and they got the fish. So as soon as B goes, “Well, you tell C bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla” and then they go back and say whatever they want and then C goes “Well you tell B bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla” and then they can go back and say whatever they want. So, and this happens in offices, this happens like I said, in family situations, this happens in romantic situations. So, when there is a triangulation of communication, that is your clue. I mean, this is like not just a red flag. This is like a red frickin banner being flown by a biplane, you know?

Kris Godinez  18:53

Warning, you know, so it’s, it’s like that is really your clue. Okay? This is not kosher. This is not normal. Normal people don’t do that. They don’t because first of all, y’all don’t have time for this. You don’t it takes too much time to do all the triangulation of communication. Normal people just go to the source. You know what I’m saying? It’s like, “Oh, well, you know, I’ve got a problem with this person. Let me go to this person.” But narcissists don’t, they’re cowards. So, what they do is if they have a problem with B, or C, they will take it to B or C and then use B or C as their messenger. “Well, you know, Mom said bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla”, and then this person goes to mom and goes, “Mom, how did you dadada” Drama, okay, and then this gives that person the right to then punish this person for telling that person, it’s so messed up. Can I tell you how messed up that is? That is so messed up. And narcissistic parents often, very often put their kids in the middle, create this competition, create this punishment thing going on, you know, want the kids to tell on each other or tell on the other parent or whatever it It’s messed up. It is just messed up. So, how do you step out of a drama triangle? And how do you step out of triangulation of communication? Okay, so the drama triangle is going to be a little harder to recognize when you’re in it. So, remember, it’s kind of like I mean, think about it, if we look back, you know, lo these many years, all of these teachings that I’ve given you, and you look back, and you’re able to go, Oh, my God, I see it now. Oh, my God, there it is. But when we’re in the middle of it, it is extremely difficult to see it, which is why I keep saying it is really hard to heal, if you’re in the middle of an abusive relationship. So, when we’re out of the abusive relationship, first of all, the fog, the fear, the obligation, the guilt starts clearing, the cognitive dissonance starts going away, because now you’re not being fed all of these lies all the time, you start seeing the truth, you start, you know, examining, wait, this person said that, and that person was doing this, what the heck, it’s almost like when you’re hiking, and you’re in the forest, right, and you lose the path. Sometimes you have to get up on a bluff to kind of look down and go, “Oh, there it is. Okay, all right. Well, I see it now.” You know, but when you’re in the middle of it, you know, it’s hard to see, because you’re constantly being fed misinformation, you’re constantly being fed stuff that creates the cognitive dissonance, you know, it’s like, but wait a minute, I thought I knew who this person was. But you’re telling me this now. And you know, it’s not good. So, when you’re in the middle of an abusive relationship, it’s harder to recognize the drama triangle. But part of what it is to is the cognitive dissonance is preventing you from seeing the drama triangle. So, you may recognize it, when you’re in it, you may not recognize it when you’re in it. But here’s a good clue that you’re in an abusive relationship. If it’s all drama, if it’s just one drama, after another after another after another if it’s a series of having to stamp out fires, if it’s a series of competitions, oh, well, you know, this person bla bla bla bla, why don’t you do that, you know, it’s or, you know, my ex, this, my ex that, oh, you act just like my ex, and then the discard starts, you know, those are all clues that that is not healthy, healthy, normal people do not torture people they love cannot say that often enough. So, stepping out of the drama triangle kind of means recognizing, hey, this isn’t normal behavior. This is not. I shouldn’t be having to rescue this person all the time, which is where the codependency stuff comes in. You know, and, and it’s, there was somebody Shahida did an article on that. And she was saying how some therapists use the term codependency as a shaming thing. And that should not be a shaming thing, what codependency means is we love the person, but we go way above call of duty to help them and it harms ourselves. So, if we are helping somebody to the harm of ourselves, that’s codependent. And because normally, it’s like you help somebody and you give them the tools, and then they’re able to pick it up and then help themselves. Not with a narcissist. It’s like, it’s constantly it’s like, help me, help me, help me, especially the covert ones. Help me Help me, help me, help me and you help them, you help them, you help them. And then two seconds later, different, but similar drama, Help me! Help me, help me, help me, help me, and you help them and then two seconds later, you know, and it’s just this constant chasing your tail trying to get them safe. And because you love them, you do it. But it comes at your own expense, which means that’s not healthy. So, you need to work on that. So yeah, I totally agree with Shahida on that. I just I, you know, my opinion on a lot of therapists out there. So, I’m okay, so stepping out of that drama thing, recognizing that’s not normal, that kind of drama is not normal. And what ends up happening too is when we come out of it, a lot of times clients will be like, almost like an addict, you know, like, addicts hate quiet when they’re first clean and sober. Because they were using basically to numb and to not hear and to not feel into whatever. So, it’s all so conditioned behavior if we came from a family that was just drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, you know, and then you come out of that, and it’s quiet. Well, now you’re having to deal with you, and your family of origin and your thoughts and your actions, and what are you doing and all of that good stuff. So, a lot of times, targets of abuse come out of the abusive relationship and they feel it’s unnatural for it to be so quiet. And the truth of the matter is, is that’s normal, quiet is good. Boring is okay, you know, and here’s the thing, if you’re really,

Kris Godinez  24:40

if you’re really working on yourself, you’re really not bored because there’s infinite things to work on. And there’s infinite things to discover and there’s infinite, infinite things to get involved in. So, it’s never really boring, but to an addict mind that’s been conditioned to have drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, total quiet What? Oh, this is awful. This is terrible. This is boring. No, no, this is good. This is where you want to be. And it can be a choice. You know, it’s like, you can   have excitement without drama. And I think that’s something that a lot of us that come out of families like that need to learn is that you can have excitement without drama. So, but getting out of the drama triangle requires recognizing that you’re in it and a lot of us don’t want to recognize it when we’re in it because we want to think no, no, no, this person is good, no, no. So, let’s get back to the triangulation of communication. So, the other thing that abusers will do is as soon as family members recognize that this person is abusive, this person, trust me every single narcissist out there is watching these shows and trying to outsmart the therapists and they will take whatever they learn and they will twist it guaranteed so what I’ve heard them do is uh, well your family is doing triangulation of communication because you’re talking about them without them there and blah, blah, blah. That’s not triangulation of communication. If you’re going to somebody who’s in an abusive relationship and going “Man, I’m worried about you. You’ve changed this person is not good for you, we see it we see the change.” That’s not triangulation of communication, triangulation of communication would be going to somebody and going “Well so and so said such and such.” That’s triangulation of communication, but abusers will twist that and go, they’re triangulating they’re, they’re the abuser. So, this is why I despise abusers. And again, they’re playing on the cognitive dissonance and they’re playing on the fog. And they’re playing on the fact that you desperately want them to be the good guy, and they’re not or the good girl and they’re not and that breaks our hearts. And that’s something when we start sliding into denial. So, when someone starts doing triangulation of communication like real triangulation of communication, so and so said such and such about this person, this person said such and such about you, you stop the conversation cold and you go “Hmm, interesting that you’re putting words in their mouth. How about we get him on the phone and clear this up right here right now?” And the second you do that, they’re gonna start backpedaling. “Oh, well, no, er, uh, you can’t do that” You just end the conversation, you just end the conversation. And every single time they try to triangulate you do that “Great, I’ve got him on the phone right now. In fact, they’re on speakerphone, let’s talk to him about this.” You know, and then they will up their abuse. And this especially happens to family and friends that recognize the abuser as the piece of doodoo that they are, and then the abuser will be like, you know, doubling upping the trying to isolate and all of that, you know, and all you can do is just do that. It’s like call it for what it is don’t play the game. Step out of it, you know, and that’s all you can do. Unfortunately, it’s really it’s like when somebody is deeply into the abuse, and they’re in denial, and they’re not willing to take a look at Yeah, they’re pickers broken. Yeah, they picked another abuser. Yeah, there, this person is not good for them. There’s really very little you can do. But what you can do is when they start doing that is you just get them on the phone. Hey, they’re on speakerphone, you want to say that again? out loud to them, you know. So there that is anyway, so triangulation of communication and drama triangles. Remember, the abuser needs drama, like everybody else needs oxygen. They are cowards. They’re never going to confront anybody directly. Unless they think they can get away with it. And as soon as you call them on it and go with it, let’s get the other person on the phone. They’re gonna they’re gonna they’re gonna either hang up on you or peace out or backpedal or do whatever. Um, so the triangulation is used for competition. It’s used to keep you one down. It’s used to keep you constantly questioning whether you’re good enough to be with them. Oh my gosh, they’re comparing me in a good way to the ex or they’re comparing me in a bad way to the axe, which is a way of keeping you down playing on your worst fears. You know, all of that stuff. So um, yeah, so really, no bueno. All right. Let’s dive into the questions and get to here. Okay, there we are. A question. My Golden Boy ex brother is an absolute failure in life doesn’t have a job, divorced can’t do anything, right? I’ve heard that narcs choose super achievers as golden child. Why then him? Well, they do one of two things because remember, they’re really weird. So that either infantilize the child, meaning the kid can’t do anything, right. He is the scapegoat, slash golden child that happens as well. So, they favor that person. But they’re never successful in life, but their favorite in the family. So, it’s kind of like an infantilization. So, like, they can’t hold a job, they can’t, you know, keep a marriage, they can’t, you know, etc, etc, etc. But yet they’re the golden child with family. And that’s kind of intentional we’ve talked about that, because if you can force a child to rely on you, you’re never alone. So dysfunctional, hang on.

Kris Godinez  30:12

So, they either pick the golden child to be the perfect one. So, the one that does succeed does this does that. And then they take credit for it. Or they infantilized the golden child. And oh, I have to take care of them. Oh, I have to do this with them. Oh, I have, you know, so it just depends on what the psychology is there. So do you think it’s okay for me to have love and merciful feelings toward my covert narc sister, who is my roommate, despite knowing that she will never feel love for me. So, here’s the deal. Here’s what sets us apart from abusers, we feel, we love you know, we just do, it’s who we are. And there’s nothing wrong with that. However, you have to have boundaries, really good boundaries, especially if this person is your roommate. And to recognize that if this person truly is diagnosed NPD they do not view us as people. And this is something that Shahida talked about in a post that I posted on Facebook earlier today that had to do with triangulation. They view us as an object, where’s my pen, we have no more meaning to them than this pen. We really don’t and to expect anything else is to lead to heartbreak. And that’s what I think is the downfall of us is because we keep hoping that we can love them into sanity. Or that they’ll see that we love them or that they’ll suddenly have this V-8 moment where they’ll be like, “Oh my god, you know, my sister, my boyfriend, my whatever, really, truly loves me.” No, it’s never gonna happen guys, they do not feel the way we do. They view us as objects to be used. That is it there, there is nothing else there. So, um, we are always going to love what we love, you know, but you have to also acknowledge the reality of it. And what is the danger of living with somebody who is like that? You know, because it’s never a good idea to live with somebody who is disordered. It’s just not it’s not safe. It’s not safe, because they cannot be trusted. So, um, you could love them. Absolutely. When we love We love! Normal people, when they when we love We love and even people that we’ve had falling outs with even people that we’ve recognized as being disordered, even people that we’ve recognized, as you know, too deep into denial to ever get out. You still love them. You know, that doesn’t mean that you’re going to just be like, yeah, I have no emotions for them. No, you can love them, but you can love them from afar. So, and that is probably the safest way to do it. So, I hope that answered your question. After realizing I had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and repetition, compulsion and trauma bonds. I was so shocked. I wondered whether I can feel attracted to anyone ever again. I’m scared. Is it?

Kris Godinez  33:07

Oh, dear, is it possible to really reset the picker? Yes, it is. But it takes not being involved with somebody else. It takes being single for a while and working on you. So, in other words, our pickers are broken because we tend to go if we look at the inner child, we tend to be attracted to the caregiver that was the most difficult to be around. So, the little kid inside of us looks outside and goes Oh, hey, that person kind of sort of reminds me of this difficult caregiver. I know I will make them love me. And if I can make them love me, I prove my caregivers wrong. Have a doodoo sandwich, half of a doodoo sandwich. Total doodoo sandwich. So, fixing the picker means self-esteem work. I’m not kidding when I say everything boils down really in truly to self-esteem. It really truly boils down to self-esteem. So, some books that you can get to work on that. The self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi the the You are a badass by Jen Sincero, there’s other self-esteem workbooks out there. Those are the two that I happen to like the most. So, you work on self-esteem then you work on boundaries. Why? Because people who have got rock solid self-esteem, do not put up with doodoo they don’t put up with doodoo sandwiches they don’t and they don’t put up with doodoo from anybody else. Then you got to work on boundaries. So, what is your list of deal breakers? What will you absofreakinglutely not ever on this or any other planet put up with that should include and not limited to no disrespect you do not put up with disrespect you do not put up with name calling you do not put up with rewriting history you do not put up with gaslighting you do not put up with lying. You do not put up with cheating. You don’t put up with raging if somebody rages at you bye bye now go pound sand ba bye bye now, do you see where I’m going with that? So, you need a list of deal breakers, what are you absolutely not going to put up with but then you have to stick to it. And oftentimes what happens is, is we come up with this list of deal breakers. And if we haven’t really done the self-esteem work, we fall in love. We love the person. They don’t love us back. But we love that person. And then they start the abusive stuff, right? And then we keep thinking, Oh, it was a mistake. Oh, well, they didn’t really mean to scream at me. Oh, well, they didn’t really mean to lie to me. Oh, well, they didn’t really Hello, denial. Oh, it’s deadly, its deadly. So, you’ve got to be willing to see reality, you’ve got to be willing to draw really strong boundaries, like rock solid cross over this line, and we are done. That kind of thing. And it’s scary, because then that little kid inside of us goes. But if I have rock solid boundaries, and they cross over and I kick them out, I’ll be alone.

Kris Godinez  36:02

And that’s when you got to work on the inner child. So, the inner child workbook by Katherine Taylor, great book, Love it. Write your inner child love letter. You know, who do, who do all these people remind you of? Who in your family do these people remind you of and then you’ve got to start working with your inner child Hey, little one. We don’t deserve to be treated like that. It’s okay for us to be treated well. Mirror work. “Hi, good to see you have a great day. You know what? It’s okay for you to pick Healthy People” walk out. So, it all has to do with self-esteem. Its self-esteem, rock solid self-esteem, Foundation, boundaries, mirror work, journaling, inner child work, it’s work. And the biggest mistake that I see is that people get out of an abusive relationship, the terror of the inner child starts running them. And the next thing they know they’re right back into another relationship. And a year or two later, I get a phone call from them. Oh my god, you were right. I should have stayed single. This is what happened. Can you please help me? Yeah, I can. But you got to do the work. You got to do the work. And that means doing the workbooks. That means going to therapy. And if you can’t afford therapy, doing the workbooks, doing the mirror work, working on the inner child writing yourself, love letters, journaling, figuring out who these people remind you of, what do they have in common? with family of origin? Where did this come from? Because we don’t just pop out of the womb going. I know, I’d really like to get involved with a series of abusers. We don’t do that. We come out of the womb, we get conditioned. And when we get conditioned, then the inner child starts picking for us if we are not cognizant of it, if we aren’t working on it, if we’re not working on our self-esteem, so stay single work on yourself. Yes, you can pick your Fix your picker, you can. You can, you absolutely can. But it’s going to take work and it’s going to take consciousness and it’s going to take mindfulness and it’s going to take working through the past. And this is where people often stop it’s like they’ll read the first chapter of C PTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker, another great book, go get it. C PTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. And they’re like, Oh, no, all these emotions, all these feelings, all these fears, all these and the little kid inside is freaking out going. No, no, no, no, no, no, I don’t want to do it again. I don’t want to do it again. Well, you’ve already lived through it. This is just memories. These memories cannot hurt you. Are they painful?  Hell,yes! Can they hurt you? No, no, they’re just memories. And this is good for you to work through it so that you master this stuff. You are the master of your thoughts, your feelings, your memories, etc. And you’re able to do thought stopping. Oh, that was a fascinating thought. Thank you for playing. I see you I hear you. You’re not true. I’m going to send you on down the road. Bye. Bye. Bye now go play in traffic. Bye bye. Do you see where I’m going with that you get to be the master of your life. It’s all about empowerment, and it’s taking your power back. So, write and burn letters to all of these people who were abusive. And then journal. What did they have in common? Who did they remind you of start working on the inner child workbook started working on C PTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker, do the self-esteem stuff, get your foundation solid? Write your list of deal breakers stick to it because you are worthy of being in a healthy relationship. There it is. Okay, hope that answered the question. Um, hi. I’m finally doing ancestry research. And I’ve uncovered lies. My parents told me Oh, and I just got started yesterday. Oooh. What advice do you have for dealing with the stress? Well, yikes. Mmm hmm. You can journal it. You can see the humor in it. I mean, it is kind of funny in a weird way. It’s kind of like, Huh, why would they lie about that? That’s interesting. Um, yeah, it’s, it’s amazing to me how I have heard parents talk about the child in the room, as if the kid was not there. You know, just having conversations that they should not be having in front of a child and I’ll have to stop them and be like, Hey, stop. Your child is sitting here listening, you know, what are you doing? You know, and they’re like, Oh, well, they’re too young. They don’t know they’re six and seven years old. They know exactly what you’re saying. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, parents, especially disordered parents, have this weird idea and Narcissists especially have this weird idea because remember, they got a sense of entitlement the size of North America, that you know, they can say and do whatever they want, and nobody’s ever gonna find out. They really, magic thinking to the nth degree. So yes, it’s stressful when you realize that your parents are lying. You could try to find the humor in it you could write it out you could journal it you could get the anger out I would imagine there’s probably if you’re feeling stressed about this, there’s some anger. So, write and burn a letter you know, Dear Mom and Dad, why are you lying to me about this stuff? You know, and then burn it and then you have to kind of decide okay, so they’ve lied to you? Are they trustworthy? Are they not trustworthy? Was it just misinformation? Are they really narcissist What’s going on? And is it worth it to even bring up if they are absolutely narcissistic if they are absolutely abusive? The best thing to do would be to like oh, okay, I’m just gonna give this to myself Thank you very much, because you’re not going to change that. And and when you try to shame a narcissist, all they do is come, you know, and attack. So, I’m just write it out. And if you need to get with a good therapist, get with a good therapist to work through. But I would suggest journaling and, you know, maybe this is bringing up other stuff, because it’s probably making you question What else that they lied about? That would be that would be kind of where my mind would go. It’s like, what else have they lied about? So um, yeah, that’s what I would do. I would journal, journal, journal, journal, right and burn, right and burn gate with a good therapist. That’s what I would suggest. And then like I said, you’re going to have to decide whether this is something you really want to bring up to them. But if they are disordered don’t, because it won’t do any good. So there that is, I hope that answered the question. Is there a therapy that helps one? I mean, like, Okay, hold on, before I go on to the next one. My family had so many stories about our origin, like, one story was that we came from Ireland, and one of the grandfather’s murdered somebody in the Civil War, like his own side, and I hope it was the North. Not that I hope you’ve murdered northern person, but I’m hoping that we didn’t go for the Confederates. But anyway, the point being, is this suppose that he murdered somebody, and then changed his name. And that’s how come we have different spellings of the name. And I’m, you know, after really talking to family members on that particular side of the family, there were so many, just blatant liars, it was like, You know what, I’m probably never gonna get the story straight. And they tend to tell the story that is the most dramatic. So, you know what I’m saying? It’s like, it happens in family. That’s why I started laughing because I was like, Wow, that sounds familiar. So, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to laugh. Like, you know, this is funny, but it was kind of funny for me, because it’s like, I came across the same thing with my family. So, in other words, you kind of have to read the room, read the room, it’s like, if they’re pathological liars, you’re never gonna get the truth from them. So, you might as well just let it go. So that’s kind of what I did with that side of the family. So sorry. Okay, moving on. All right. Is there a therapy that helps one develop one’s own narrative? with truth, of course, but one’s own relevant truth? Well, any of them would. So cognitive behavioral therapy DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, you know, any of them? Because really, the whole point of therapy is, what is your truth? How do you know what how do you want to live? You’re not not your mom, not your dad, not your grandparents, not your boss, not your friends? Not, you know? How do you want to live? Who are you really, and it’s really examining, kind of ties into the whole, you know, families lying about family history. It really is examining what is the truth? What is your truth? What is real for you? What what do you want? You know, not what, mom, dad, whoever wanted? What do you want? What is your own narrative? journal, journal, get it out of your head, get it onto paper. So, therapy is really about discovering who you are. And a good therapist will give you suggestions to kind of help you do that. And you read as much as you can, you know, educate yourself. It’s like, well, what is your truth? What are you working on? And it could be anything from existentialism, oh, oh existentialism, Mind blown. Viktor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning wonderful book, depressing as hell, wonderful book. So, because he wrote it because of the Holocaust, he had to find meaning in this horrific, you know, thing he was in. So, Viktor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning as a great existential book, it’s kind of like why are we here? You know, what’s the meaning of life literally, you know, if you Can you hear me? This keeps like me going 42? So, you know, it’s like, why are we here? What is the meaning of life? What brings meaning to our life? Who am I? Really? What is the reality that I want to have in my life? You know, it’s like, and that’s a really, I’m sorry, I just got all excited about this, because it’s a great question. So, it’s really, it’s about, it’s about discovering you. What are your wants? What are your needs? What do you like? What do you not like, you know, who are you? And what brings you joy? What brings you happiness? What brings you meaning, what brings you what gets you to wake up every morning? You know, what’s your gratitude, you know, that kind of thing. So, it’s really, it’s, it could be any of the modalities. I think existentialism would be really good for this. Um, CBT DBT dialectical behavioral existentialism. Yeah, just explore, go explore, go explore, go explore, have fun doing it. I think the thing of it is, is that a lot of people look at therapy as something scary. And it can be I mean, honestly, think about it. It’s like you’re walking into an office and you’re baring your soul to this total stranger and you’re praying to God and all that’s holy that you’re not in with a narcissist, which I totally understand, you know, but you get with the right therapist, and it can be fun. I mean, really, it’s like, holy crap, I didn’t know I had this within me to do this. Holy crap, I can do this holy crap. I can, you know, break out of this box that the narcissist put me in, you know, so I think, look at it as a joyful journey. Look at it as kind of Buddhism kind of coming into this. It is a joyful journey. It’s like it’s not the destination. It’s the journey. Have fun. Have fun, figure out who you are. That is, those are my favorite assignments that I give people. It’s like, what do you like? What do you want to do? What makes you happy? And that’s helping to get the person back from the fog. And from the cognitive dissonance. A lot of people will come in and be like, well, I used to be joyful and fearless and this and that. Now I’m terrified and I don’t have any joy and Okay, we need to get that back. How do we get that back? What did you used to like to do when you’re a kid? Do it? finger painting? Oh, I love finger painting, flying kites. Oh my god, it makes me giggle. I don’t know why it just does. You know. So, it’s like get back to that joie de v that we had when we were kids. If we had a lot of you when we were kids. If we didn’t, then give yourself permission to go play. Play is hugely important to discovering who we are. This is why little kids play all the time. Because they’re learning and kids learn best when they’re having fun. Why do you think I try to make this stuff as fun as possible? Because we learn best if we have those endorphins and dopamine flowing through. So yeah, go explore with joy. Go give yourself permission to play Hi, good to see you have a great day. You know what? I give you permission to have play time and go figure out who you are and have fun doing it. Because how many of us got the message? Don’t you dare have fun. I’m going to ruin it narcissists love to ruin playtime. Narcissus love to ruin fun. Narcissus love to ruin joy. You know they are the thief of joy. Oh, anyway, so you know you want to take it back. Take back your power and your power is enjoying. I know Isn’t that awesome? I love this part. So, it’s like your power your superpower to win over these jerks. Not win over them like not on winning them over but like win over like win like you buh bye. Okay, is joy and it’s fun and it’s playfulness and it’s childlike not childish, big difference. Childlike wonder. Just enjoy. Just go play. Go figure out what you like, and have fun with it. existentialism I think you’re gonna like so yeah, go check it out Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl so yeah, let’s have fun, have fun and set time aside every week or every day to go just do something that involves wonder. So, for me, like this weekend, we went hiking with our buddy Mike again and so it was just like, it was windy like nobody’s business. Oh my god, the pollen was so bad. But it was so beautiful because there was all of these Saguaros out there and it’s just like, miles of Saguaros and I’m just standing there going, Oh,

Kris Godinez  49:33

this is pretty I like this, you know, and just that childlike wonder that’s how like joy so do something that will evoke that and and make time for that. I think that’s really important because think of how many Narcissists bag on their kids and go You’re so childish. You’re. You need to grow up you need to do this. Hey, you know what I’m saying? So yeah, so absolutely. All right. So, I hope that answered the question. If it didn’t let me know but Man’s Search for Meaning. Viktor Frankl, go play, have fun. Take your joy back. Take your humor back, because they don’t want us to laugh. They don’t want us to have fun. So, and that’s the best way to learn. So go do something new, but have fun doing it. So yep. Oh, I love it. Let me know how that turns out. I’m excited to hear what happens. All right, um, my partner has a toxic uncle who triangulates. He is now blaming me for his problems, not unusual. Um, I have asked my partner not to answer if he phones when I’m out or talking on the other line to save drama. Am I right to do this? Yeah, absolutely. You know, especially if this person and this is not just with uncles or aunts, I’ve seen you know, mother in law’s father in law’s try to drive themselves into the relationship. So, I had somebody write me a few weeks ago. And they said that there was a sibling, it was a sibling that was doing it that was doing the triangulation of communication. And no, no, I’m sorry, it was the siblings partner. And so, if the family called out the partner on the behavior, the sibling would come to their defense creating Romeo, Juliet situation, etc, etc, etc. So, um, this is what they do. And I honestly think yeah, I think it’s best that you do not have that person talking to your partner, well, except, well, here’s the other thing though, if your partner is truly on your side, they will be able to say, Okay, you know what, Uncle Joe, you’re talking about my partner and my partner’s not here to defend themselves. So let me get them on the line or hold on a second, we’re not gonna go there, you know, so they need to be able to stand up for you. So, so it’s a kind of it’s a weird thing, because it’s like abusers do it. But then abusers accuse, you know, not abusers of doing it. So, um, hold on, must ponder for a moment,I think you have the right to ask that, because then that way, everybody’s there, you know, but, and I think honestly, if this is an issue in your relationship, get to a couple’s counselor, because why is your partner not standing up for you?

Kris Godinez  52:17

You know, so they should when an abuser tries to triangulate or start talking bad about you, they should be able to go You know what, mom? You know what, Dad, you know what, Uncle Joe, I’m not gonna go there. So, you want to talk about something else right now, because I’m not gonna play or I’m gonna hang up. So, this needs to be discussed, I would definitely discuss it, I would talk to a therapist, I would find out what’s going on. A lot of times, children of abusive families are reticent to stand up to an abuser or to stand up to somebody who triangulates because they’re afraid of making waves. But you know, what, if you’re in a relationship, and it’s a healthy relationship, and this person is trying to cause drama, if you say nothing, you are basically giving them permission to continue. So, this is something that’s going to need to be talked about. So, either get with a good therapist or talk it out, remember to use I statements, I feel disrespected when Uncle Joe is allowed to call and do his stuff, and I want you to stand up for me, you know, I need to know that you’ve got my back, I need to know you have my six. And this is a conversation you guys need to have. And then if it gets stuck there, and it turns into a weird, you know, totally off topic argument. That’s when you’re going to need a third party to kind of help you so there’s a great book on communication called fighting for your marriage. And it’s written I don’t know whose the guy’s first name is but it’s Markham Marham fighting for your marriage by Mark ham and they’ve got all sorts of really good communication skills, you know how to have a disagreement doing reflective listening, meaning, okay, you said this to me, this is what I heard. Is that really what you said? Because sometimes we don’t hear clearly, what’s being said, it gets filtered through a clogged filter, so we have to kind of reflect back and go okay, I heard you say that, is that really what you mean? Oh, no, that’s not what I meant. Let me try again. And then try again. Okay, this is what I heard. Is that correct? Yep, that’s correct. And then the conversation can move forward. So, look into fighting for your marriage by Markham, and then talk to them about it, him or her? Talk to them about it’s like what you know, what is your fear? What’s the fear? Why is it that you want to be there when this person talks? What are you afraid of? Are they standing up for you? You know, and if they’re not why not you know, it’s this is a heavy-duty conversation but it can be approached non accusatorily, I don’t even know if that’s a word. You know what I’m saying? So, it’s not like adversarial kind of thing you can be kind of like for me, help me understand you know, kind of thing so yeah, hope that answered the question. Um, okay. Why is it so delicious to abusers to hurt their child is it because they are, they themselves are babies? So, so this sadism. Sadism so when you’re dealing with a dark triad, okay so remember everything is on a spectrum, everything is on a spectrum So down here you have like traits of, down here you have full blown full goose bozo. Oh my god, dark triad. So down here is kind of like slightly arrogant you know big head talks about themselves and then they start sliding down the malignancy scale and when by the time they reach over here they are full blown dark triad so a dark triad is Machiavellian which is control freak, narcissist. okay, which we all know what a narcissist is, me, me, me, I, my genitals and then psychopath, you know. So generally, by the time they reach that there’s also sadism involved. And they it’s a power thing. Hurting children hurting anybody, is a power thing. It strokes their ego by the time they get down to this, there is no there, there. There, there really is no, there, there. It’s like when I tell people that it’s, It’s hard to wrap your head around unless you’ve seen it. But there’s no there there, there. It is, it is all ego. There is no empathy. There is no caring, there is no not even faking it. Sometimes. There’s no there, there, and they enjoy power and control. And so, who are the most powerless people on the face of the planet kids?

Kris Godinez  56:29

babies? You know, that’s where you get a lot of the sadistic abusers. So yeah, they do it because it’s a power and control thing. They enjoy it. They enjoy it. They like watching somebody suffer, that gets their rocks off, and they are the most heinous POS’s on the face the frickin planet if you want my personal opinion. So that has nothing to do with them being babies. It has to do with them wanting power and control. So, when they harm somebody, they’re really what they’re saying in their head is Oh, look what I did. Look, look how I made them feel. Oh, I can make them cry. Oh, I can make them scream. Oh, it’s just sick makes it gives me this upset stomach even saying that. So yeah. Do you see where I’m going with his little No, no, no. Anyway, that’s them. That’s what they enjoy. That is what they like that is what they do. They get their rocks off on it. They’re just heinous human beings and I use the term human beings loosely. So yeah, it’s not because they’re babies. It’s because they enjoy the power trip. They enjoy the, the suffering, they are sadist, they’re sadists. So, hope that answered the question. Um, okay, Can you forgive a cheating partner, if the partner is committed to healing the relationship and do better? Hmm. Okay. So, there are two types of Cheaters in the world. One is the kind that you can actually work with. So, if they have cheated, learned behavior, they watched mom and dad do it. And they are truly remorseful, truly, like really not just fake, not just I’m sorry, you or sorry, but I’m sorry, you made me blah, blah, blah, but willing to go, I did this, I own this. Let me work on this. I’m going to go to my own therapy, I’m gonna figure out what the frick, I was thinking. Let me fix this, you know, again, let me make amends. Right. And then they actually do it and they work on it, then you can have a good relationship afterwards. The other kind of cheater is the serial cheater, which is the narcissist which means I’m sorry, you I’m sorry. But I’m sorry, you made me I’m sorry, blah, blah, blah. Sure, sure I’ll go get therapy, crickets. They never change. They never work on themselves. Oh, baby, baby, it’ll get better, I promise. And it doesn’t. So those are the two types. So, there’s a great book called after the affair, and it’s on Amazon cannot think of who wrote it. But it’s good for both the cheated on and the cheater to help understand why they did what they did. So um, it would be a really good idea to get with a good therapist again, read that book and then look at past behavior and look at current behavior and don’t get stuck in the time invested fallacy. Oh, I’ve been with them for 25 years I’ve invested all this time. They’re abusive, go buh bye, get out, save yourself. Um, you know, so do investigate that it’s like if they are taking the appropriate action, if they are making the positive, the appropriate. Apologies if they are owning their stuff and not blaming you and not you know, playing games or any of that if they are working on themselves. And if they are taking the next right step and have made amends, then you’re good to go if they’re not. Bye bye now I get half. So, do you see where I’m going with that? Sorry, yeah. All right. Okay, kids. It is one o’clock. My voice is going on. Go be awesome. Have a great week and I will find my cursor we’re good to go. Okay, and I will talk to you soon. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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