Kris Godinez 00:02

Hello and welcome to  We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA, or any other therapist for that matter.

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Okay, guys. So today, I wanted to talk about kids as pawns. And I don’t necessarily mean when they are, when you’re in the middle of a divorce, and they’re using the kids to, you know, hurt the other person or whatever we already know about all of that. So I wanted to talk a little deeper how narcissists, especially how abusive parents, abusers, malignant, borderlines, etc, how they already have a job for the kid before the kid is even born. And that’s really damaging. So I wanted to talk about why do they do adoption? If they’re just going to ignore the kid or they’re just going to abuse a kid? Why do they do in vitro? Why do they so desperately want to have children when they really don’t want to have children? So alright, so this is what we’re going to talk about.

All right, so here’s the deal. Abusers never do anything without an agenda. They just don’t, it’s just, that is their nature. So it’s always what is going to benefit them, okay, they never, you know, a healthy person, when you’re looking at having children, you go, Oh, my gosh, this is a calling for me, I want to have children because I love kids. And I would like to raise a little one. And I would like to be a mom or a dad or whatever. And you have that maternal or paternal instinct to help the next generation and raise that child and want them to be them. Now with somebody who is disordered, that is simply not there that not going to happen. So for them, there is a reason they want those kids and it has nothing to do with that child. It’s not like they’ve wanted to be a parent their entire lives. It’s not like they like children. It’s not because they don’t like anybody remember, they don’t feel they don’t have the same feelings we do. So they don’t have that maternal or paternal instinct to raise and love that child.

So when they are looking to get into a relationship, they’re looking to trap the partner basically, is what’s going on. And this happens with both men and women. So I want to be perfectly clear here. It’s not just female abusers, that trap people, it’s male abusers do the same thing. And they use pregnancy to keep that partner with them. So here’s what happens. So if you’ve got a male abuser, okay, and you’re thinking of leaving, they will start sabotaging the birth control. I have seen them put holes in the condoms. Yes, they do do that. And they will, you know, oh, you know, it has a hole in it, oops, you know, that kind of thing. Or they take the condom off in the middle of the sexual act. Or, you know, if you’re dealing with a female narcissist or a female abuser, they’ll do the same thing and claim that they’re on birth control when they’re not.

The other thing I’ve seen them do is female abusers will fake a pregnancy. Now, here’s something that just blew my mind. I don’t know why it did. It shouldn’t. Nothing should shock me anymore, but it still does. When I was researching this, how abusers use kids as pawns in order to keep a relationship going, and you’re probably sitting there thinking to yourself, Why in the world would they want that? Well, with an abuser, they have to have narcissistic supply. So that kid is seen as a means to an end male and female. So usually the male and female reason for abusers to have children is to keep that partner stuck with them for the next 18 plus years. This goes for adoption. This goes for in vitro This goes for whoops pregnancies, this goes for all of it. So what I have seen abusers do in adoption situations. They will convince the partner that yes, they are maternal or paternal and that they want to raise these children and they will adopt a bunch of kids or they will adopt children with high needs. And then they think that that’s going to keep that partner stuck with them. Now, if the partner is healthy, they’re going to say, No, I’m not staying in an abusive relationship, and they’ll you know, get out with the kids, it just makes it a lot harder if you’ve got a special needs child. But that is the reasoning. That’s what these abusers do plus the fact in several instances, not just one, I’ve had cases where the abuser intentionally adopted children in order to abuse them, because the children were nonverbal, or the children were disabled to the point where they couldn’t express what was going on. And then they would abuse them. So that is a common occurrence as well.

So I was looking up all of these articles. Oh, and this is, this is the thing that just blew my mind when I was researching this is what I was going to tell you is that female abusers will fake a pregnancy, female abusers and I had this happen with one of my clients, it was insane. So the client was able to get away from the female abuser. And the female abuser supposedly showed a positive pregnancy test, and then started showing this growing belly. Well, the pregnancy test and the growing belly belong to a girlfriend of hers, never showed her face, never showed, you know what I’m saying? It’s, it’s like, never showed anything, you know, below or above, you know. And so finally, I said, um, you may want to be getting some pictures of the whole person, because this is really suspicious that you’re only getting shots of the pregnant belly and not of the whole person. So let’s, you know, demand a pregnancy test, demand a paternity test. Let’s see what’s going on. And as soon as it was exposed, the first thing that the abuser did was, oh, I miscarried. And then finally, the whole story came out that, you know, no, I just wanted you back. And I was bla bla bla bla bla.

So apparently, abusers are able to go on to online and buy positive pregnancy tests, which I think should be illegal, I really, truly do because it is trapping a person into an abusive relationship, anybody that has to do that? Dear Lord. But you’ve got to remember abusers don’t think of it as what’s the word I’m looking for it, they don’t think of it as the moral implication, because they don’t have a moral compass, the rest of us would be shocked and horrified and mortified and whatever, that oh, my gosh, you have to do this in order to keep a partner really. But for them, it’s a means to an end. And so they will do things like that they will fake pregnancies, they will get the positive pregnancy test, as proof that they’re pregnant. And then, of course, there was another instance where the, the partner kept wanting to go to the doctor’s visits. And of course, the person wasn’t really pregnant. And so they kept coming up with reasons why they couldn’t go. And then finally, it all blew up and the whole thing, but yeah, they do this guys, they’re male and female, it’s not just one or the other, I want to be perfectly clear, both male and female abusers pull this using a child as a means to keep the relationship going or continuing, or get back to them or whatever.

And they have a job for the kid. So let’s be perfectly clear, when an abuser is looking to have children, they’ve already got a job for that kid, that job is for that kid to be the mini-me usually. So the kid is supposed to be there, their inheritance, their mini-me, they’re there, you know, continuing on of their line, or whatever. So I’m an in vitro, oh, Lord, what I have seen them do is that they will get together with somebody not get pregnant, and then demand that they spend, you know, 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of dollars on in vitro in order to get pregnant and then once the children are born, they abdicate and they don’t raise them and they turn them over to nannies or they turn them over to the other parent, and they have nothing more to do with them and they hit the bars. And it’s because the children were a means to an end the children were a way to keep that person connected to them.

So I wanted to hit a couple of articles that I thought no more than a couple there’s like four. So um, the first one is red flags that the pregnancy is a trap. So this is about women trapping men, and we’re going to talk about men trapping women next so trap number one, the pregnancy pulled you back from the brink so in other words, okay, you guys we’re about to break up. Things are getting a little rocky and you’re like that’s it I’m done. I’m tired of the abuse. I’m tired of the cycle it I’m leaving, and then suddenly, oh, pregnancy. So usually what ends up happening is most partners will, unfortunately, do the quote-unquote, right thing and stay in the relationship. That is the worst thing to do. So, and unfortunately, I’ve seen this multiple times where the woman gets pregnant, or she says she’s pregnant, and then they decide to come back, work things out, etc. And then what ends up happening is they go on to divorce anyway. And now the abuser, the female abuser is using that kid as a pawn with the other parent, you know, male or female, because remember, this can happen in same-sex marriages, this could happen in heterosexual marriages, it can happen in any marriage, so and they would use that kid as a means to get money, and they would use the kid as what’s the word I’m looking for? extortion, I think is a good way to put it. So you know, it’s like, you need to give me more, you need to give me more you need to give me more. So there was that?

Okay. Um, all right, you made it clear that you did not want kids. So you’ve had the talk. And this is what healthy normal people do is they have the talk. They have the talk, they decide whether or not they want children, because this is kind of a huge topic. And this is something that needs to be talked about, prior to committing to somebody because let’s say that you’re you know, you’re with an abuser, and oh, yeah, of course, I want kids Oh, yeah. Did it up, but then you get into the relationship. And then they’re like, No, I don’t want a kid. And you’re like, but I do. And then of course, by that time, they’ve been doing the cycle of abuse, they’ve been doing the intermittent positive rewards, they brainwash you into thinking you don’t want to quit. And then you finally get out of that relationship. And you regret not having a child or conversely, oh, yeah, you know, I don’t want children. No, no, no, you’re no, I don’t want kids at all. No, no, no. And then you get into the relationship, and then they start pressuring you to have a kid. That’s a huge red flag because this should have been talked about prior to committing. Now, that’s not to say that people cannot change their minds. But if you’re going into a relationship, and you clearly don’t want children, and this person starts trying to pressure you into having kids and you’re like, No, I don’t want kids, then you guys need to go your separate ways. Nope. I don’t, you know, I don’t want motherhood or I don’t want fatherhood or whatever. You need to find somebody else. Is it heartbreaking? Yeah. But if you’re with somebody who’s trying to convince you to have a child when you don’t, or who suddenly shows up pregnant when you’ve said you don’t want children, that’s a huge, huge red flag.

Now, that’s not to say that birth control doesn’t occasionally fail. It does. So but it’s a very different conversation. Because if you’ve got two healthy people, you’re going to be discussing options you’re going to be talking about to keep the child do we give it up for adoption? Do we do an abortion? do we what do we do? You know, what’s the what’s the plan, it’s not forcing something on somebody else, you know what I’m saying? So the difference though, with an abuser is it’s their way or the highway, they’ve already made the decision, they’ve already fixed all this stuff in their head.

Conversely, I’ve also seen narcissists use abortion as a form of manipulation. In order to get the spouse to stay, they threatened to abort, so they do that as well. They’re heinous. They’re just they’re no moral compass. They don’t, they don’t care about another living soul literally, other than themselves, and the children and the spouses are used as pawns. And that really pisses me off.

Okay? Um, okay, you made it clear, you didn’t want kids, um, there’s a really not logical reason for going off of birth control. So they don’t even bother to try to find an alternate means of birth control. So a lot of women do not tolerate the pills. Well, I was one of them. I couldn’t stand it. So John, and I switched to other forms of birth control. And finally, John got a vasectomy, because we were like, you know, we just don’t want kids. So let’s just finish it, you know? So, um, you know, there’s no, there’s no talking about other forms of birth control. It’s always excuses. It’s always like, Oh, I can’t get pregnant. That’s something I’ve heard them use before as well. I can’t get pregnant. Oh, it’s the wrong time of the month.

Let’s be clear, you can get pregnant anytime during your cycle, anytime, even on your period. So let’s be clear about that. So yeah, you can get, you can get pregnant at any point in time. So if somebody lies to you and says, Oh, I can’t get pregnant. Oh, it’s the wrong time of the month. Oh, Baba, Baba. Y’all should be looking that stuff up. Instead of just letting thinking with another part of your body. You need to be thinking with this part of your body. Do you see where I’m going with that to make sure that they’re not lying to you.

So there is that okay. Um, so oftentimes when an abuser is wanting to To create a child in order to trap somebody they go for the over the top seduction they go for the over the top love bombing they go for the over the top everything and, and then they come up with excuses why they don’t wear a condom or whatever. Now here’s another thing I’ve seen them do, they will try to inseminate themselves using sperm leftover and the condom and try to get pregnant that way that’s also been documented. So you know, they’re just they’re devious like nobody’s business.

Um. Okay, Red flag number six. I can’t get pregnant today. That’s that’s another lie. Red flag number seven. Not really pregnant, not really pregnant. So if somebody says they’re pregnant, and then they’re like, Oh, I was just kidding. No, they weren’t. Um, conveniently timed miscarriage. I talked about that. So that’s how women do that.

Um, let’s see, where’s the male now here’s this one. Examples of sabotage for male abusers include hiding withholding or destroying the partner’s oral contraceptives, breaking or poking holes in the condoms on purpose, which I’ve seen happen, or have been reported to happen. Even removing the condom during sex… stealthing. That’s what that’s called in cut article, and I can’t even say this word. obstetrics resident found that 16% of women who received routine OBGYN care at the hospital in which she worked have received unwelcome pressure to get pregnant, their boyfriends or partners made it hard for them to use birth control poking holes in the condom or hiding their pills or threatening to leave or harm them if they didn’t get pregnant. So yeah, abusers are not above doing threats. They’re not above threatening to withhold the relationship. They’re not above, threatening to harm the person if they don’t get pregnant. There’s all sorts of stuff that abusers do.

And basically what they’re doing is they’re using those kids as a way to keep connected to the partner. So this kind of goes hand in hand with what is the situation around that a lot of times, you will find that these partners that do that are terrified of being abandoned, or they’re gold diggers, and they’re doing this so that they have money influx coming in from this wealthy partner. So yeah, it’s really and this is, this happens. And then let’s talk about adoption. So this is by Lynn Grubb. And this is a blog, a blog about the adoption experience. And it’s called narcissism and adoption, very likely bedfellows. And she talks about how abusers use the adoption system, especially in the past when adoption was closed. And I don’t even know if it’s still closed to this day. But there are closed adoptions where that you can’t find out any information about the birth parents, I think that’s wrong, especially given all of the genetic diseases that can be passed down, you need to have that medical history, you need to know if there is say, for example, schizophrenia in the family before you can make an informed choice of deciding to have a child. And honestly, that’s part of the reason why John and I chose not to is because my uncle on my mom’s side was a paranoid schizophrenic. And I told John, I said, it runs in the family, I really, and I’ve got eight generations of alcoholics on the other side. So you know, not a really good combination. So we discussed, you know, the pros and the cons. And we decided ultimately, that we did not want children. So but these are, these are things that need to be out in the light. And in the past, there were closed adoptions, where the birth mother was shamed, for this is the 60s, 50s, and 60s, shamed for getting pregnant or, you know, shamed for giving the child up. And then, you know, the adoption happens. And let’s say that the person that adopts is a narcissist, they let that kid know, in no uncertain terms, that they’re not theirs. I have seen that happen as well. And then if they go on to have a birth child of their own, they will make it clear to the adopted child that they favor the birth child over the adopted child, and I’m just, I just, I can’t even because to me, it’s like if you choose to adopt that child is yours, period, you know, and you treat them as yours. You don’t treat them differently and you don’t keep pointing it out to them but abusive parents will keep pointing it out to them and this is something that Lynn talks about Lynn talks about in her article.

She also talks about how it’s easier, like I talked about for abusers to abuse, especially if the child is developmentally disabled. And she also talks about Joan Crawford is In her article, and I think that was a brilliant point, Joan Crawford adopted her kids, not because she wanted children and was, you know, Mother of the year, obviously Mommy dearest. But she adopted them so that she could fit this Hollywood image that she needed to portray of this mother of the year. And then Christina, her daughter, her adopted daughter wrote this tell-all book, basically saying, No, this was not good. She used to beat us, if we had wire hangers, she would beat us if we didn’t, you know, do things exact, you know, we had to be perfect. And this, that and the other thing, and we were there for photo ops, and then we got put away, you know, so yeah, a lot of times abusers will go the adoptive route because it suits their need for the false narrative. For the look how, look how noble I am, look how wonderful I am. Look how, you know, I’m putting myself out until adopting and this that in the meanwhile, they’re abusing the heck out of the kids. And this happens a lot, there’s been a lot of stories coming out. In the adoption community about abusers that do this, it was more likely to happen in the 60s in the 50s. But it still happens today.

So this is something to think about when you are dealing with a partner and you’re thinking that they may have narcissism, or they may be an abuser, or whatever, you don’t want that. Um, so anyway, Lynes article is really, really good. It’s a blog, and it’s really long, so I’m not going to read the whole thing. But basically, she goes into everything that I’ve been talking about, she’s, you know, there’s a lack of accountability. There’s a lack of transparency, there’s very few places that children can turn to, when an abuser starts abusing, you know, especially if they’re developmentally disabled, you know, it’s really, it’s frightening. It bothers me, because there’s been several articles on CNN recently about child abuse. One of the most recent ones was a guy in New Jersey, who separated the grandmother and the the spouse, the wife, were constantly making calls to the Department of Children Services, concerned about the child, etc, etc, etc. The abusive dad kept telling the kid that he was fat, put them onto a treadmill ran to death hit him, obviously did internal damage and the child died. So it bothers me that the Department of Children Services across the country are completely incompetent. I’m sorry, let’s just call it what it is. They wait until the child dies. They wait until there is harm before they step in.

And if you look at the family courts, I posted one on my we need to talk page, if you look at the family courts, you get these judges who are refusing because they are narcissists themselves to separate the child from the abuser and they’re like, Oh, we’re here to reunite the family. That is an outdated mode of thinking now, are there abusive parents that do parental alienation? Absolutely. And in that case, the child needs to be with the healthier parent. However, there’s also cases where the abuser is there and they just want the kid to use as a pawn to harm to hurt to whatever to manipulate. And honest to God, our system is so screwed up. We need social workers in on the family court system and we need judges to be forced to recuse themselves if they keep making these stupid judgments that are harming the kids. You know, it’s like getting a family back together should not be the main focus. Making sure the child is safe should be the main focus and it’s not so I’m sorry, I just went off on a tangent anyway. There is that Okay, one more article.

And this is on psychology today. Narcissistic women may use pregnancy as powers as a power play.

Kris Godinez 24:09

So um, so again, they, they plan them to break to keep the breakup or divorce from happening, they plan them to get more money. They may lie about their birth control. They use the children or the pregnancy to their advantage to hurt their partner or to trap them in a relationship and this was narcissistic women may use pregnancy as power by Dr. Christie Lee Hockenburger So that’s a really, really good article as well. narcissism and the surprise pregnancy as part of this article, you know, faking the pregnancy um yeah, it’s a really, really good article. I really liked it anyway, so there is that

So children are used as pawns by a narcissist before the poor kid is even born. Like seriously. So and something else that I’ve seen narcissists do is they will tell their child that they conceived through in vitro, which is extremely expensive we all know that they will. They will tell the child Oh, you’re my $10,000 baby, but not like your my $10,000 baby is in I am so thrilled I spent this money to have you. It’s your my $10,000 baby, and you should feel guilty about it because look at how much money I spent to get you. And then they ignore the kid, they shove them into a room, they have nannies watch them. Or they don’t have nannies wash them, they just shove them into a room and somehow expect them to raise themselves. And that’s not how parenting works. And they will accept the child as long as the child is their mini-me is the golden child acts just like them thinks just like them does everything just like them. They’re perfectly okay with that until the child starts making up their own minds and decisions and things like that.

So a child in a narcissistic parental unit is never there because the child is wanted or loved. Or you know that the child is there to prove something or to get something or to make the abuser look good. You know, with my dad, we, all of us, all five of us were always like, Why in the hell did he have kids? Well, because back in the day, you had to prove you were virile. And he was a Marine. So he had to prove he was virile and a marine and he just kept pushing him out around and kids. He never wanted any of us. He never liked any of us. He never bothered playing with any of us. But for appearances, you know, he was an attorney. He was a community pillar. So he had to show that he was virile and that he was you know, a good dad and this that the other thing and oh my dear God, it’s always appearances. It’s not because they really want children. Somebody who really wants children spends time with them, teaches them loves them, cares for them, makes sure that they are not abandoned to make sure that they’re not just shoved in a room and ignored.

Every single child of abuse I’ve ever dealt with as an adult is a ninja. They are able to sneak into a room and you never hear them. Why? Because the abuser trained them to be silent, to not be heard, to not be seen to not be real, you know. So this is what abusive parents do. It’s like the kid has got a job before they’re even conceived.

So with an abuser, if they’re using a pregnancy to keep somebody with them, that kid’s job is to keep that marriage together or to keep that person with them. Or if they’re gold diggers on top of that, to get the money that comes with that. So yeah, they all do all of that they absolutely do. And if they’re super abusive, they’ll use the adoption as an opportunity to abuse and especially if they adopt special needs children that can’t say anything. So it’s you know, know who’s gonna believe the kids who’s gonna even think to ask the kids, especially if you’ve got one of those communal narcissists. That’s like, Oh, look at how noble I am. Look at this. Look at that. They won’t even think to ask the kids, nobody thought to ask Joan Crawford’s kids, you know, until they were adults and start writing books. You know, so yeah, there it is. Don’t even get me started. Oh.

Kris Godinez 28:22

Okay, so to recap, children are always used as pawns always, from the second they are conceived or before abusers will fake pregnancies, abusers will sabotage birth control, abusers will then use those kids as a financial gain. Or they’ll use those kids as an emotional manipulation, emotional leverage against the other partner to keep them together or to get money. Mmm, yeah. And they will change their tune.

So this is, this is why I’m always mortified. When I have clients that come in and go, Oh, I met someone and we’re getting married. And I’ve known them for three months. And I’m like, Oh, my God, no, no, no, you got some talking to do. You got some things to layout and make sure you guys are on the same page. So because Yeah, they’ll do that. They’ll mirror what they think you want. And then as soon as they gotcha, like a gotcha. Then they’ll change their tune. And no, no, I want kids, you know, that kind of thing. So anyway, there that is okay. Let’s dive into the questions. Okay. Do I need my glasses? I can’t see this, right. It’s too small and my eyes are too old. Okay. Okay.

Do narcissists have children they don’t want? Yes. And then tell the child they were never wanted? Yes. And that they are worthless to create a trauma bond with this child? Oh, sweet baby Jesus. Yes, absolutely. They do. So abusers enjoy harming, hurting. Putting down. That was another article that I didn’t put up and it was Talking about children as pawns and how the abuser in this was more into the divorce side of it, that they were talking about how the abuser will do that, to create a trauma bond to Harm, other parents. So remember, when you’re in the middle of a divorce battle with one of these monsters, they’ll do anything say anything to hurt you. They don’t care. Because, honestly, children to them have no more meaning than this pen. We have no more meaning to them than this pen. We don’t. So partners have no more meaning to them than this pen. Children have no more meaning to them to this pen. To them. It’s okay, I’m using you. I’m using, I’m using Oh, look, the ink is out. Oh, well. Okay, you’re not important anymore. You can’t? What can you do for me? That’s seriously how they do that. So when they are in the middle of a horrible divorce, and sometimes not even in the middle of a horrible divorce, they will harm they will hurt, they will lie to the child, they will say the most horrible things to that child to hurt them. Why? Because they’re sick mother Cluckers. And they get off on the sadism so you’re dealing with somebody that would say that to a child. First of all, needs to go sideways with an unlubricated baseball bat. You know what I’m saying?

So they’re dark triads. They’re sadists, they’re psychopaths. They’re nurses, and they’re control freaks. And they in joy, inflicting the pain. They will say the most heinous things my dad used to say horrible things to me. He would Oh my God. You know, if you want to know what he said, you can read what’s wrong with your dad available on Amazon. So no, seriously, they will say the most horrible things. They will tell the child intentionally, intentionally I never wanted you. You’re a burden. You’re this You’re that blah, blah. And basically, guys, if their lips are moving, they’re lying. And if their lips are moving, they’re projecting. So guess who they really hate? And really, who is a burden? It’s not you guys. It’s them. Okay, so because this is, this is the thing that my dad used to do to me, it’s all your fault that I can’t retire. And he said that to me from the time I can remember. So I’m sitting here going as a six-year-old, kind of like, did I have a choice and coming down or Well, I guess originally, I would have but you know, it’s like, Look, dude, I’m not the one that didn’t wear a condom. And I actually said that to him one time and he hit me. Big surprise. I’m not when I was six when I was older.

But um, yeah, they will blame the kid for their life. This is why they want children. I’m so glad you asked this question. This is why they want children either to connect them to a partner or so that they have somebody to blame that and have narcissistic supply because they’re sadists and they enjoy inflicting the pain and they love the tears. Your tears are delicious to them. And yes, they are creating a trauma bond absofreakinglutely they enjoy it. And they love the fact that they’re keeping you connected to them with this crazy trauma bond. I love you. I hate you. I love you. I hate you. I love you. He what? You know, it’s very confusing to a kid. So yeah, they will tell the kid these things like you’re not wanted. I don’t like you bla bla bla bla. And then on the flip side, they’re like, well, we love you. Oh, you’re just you know, or something similar. Maybe not. I love you. But, you know, because my dad would do that my dad would like on the one hand, I can’t retire because of you. And then if I made him look good. Oh, this is my daughter. Oh, my daughter. I taught her everything. You know, I’m sitting there looking at him going like hell you did! You know what I’m saying? So um, yeah. So yeah, they absolutely do that. It’s, it’s disgusting. And yes, they. They tell the child they were never wanted. They do tell them they’re worthless to create a trauma bond. And they do it because they enjoy, They enjoy the drama. They enjoy the pain. They enjoy the hurts. They enjoy the look on your face. They enjoy the tears. They’re sick, they’re sick. They’re sick.

So the best antidote to that is getting with a good trauma therapist seriously and that’s what Bessel Van De Kolk was talking about it and Kim Saeed I love her. She’s been talking about how the DSM is just completely corrupt and it is because they’re refusing to put in anything that would help abuse survivors deal with all of this the, they are trying to get rid of the narcissism the personality disorders. And yeah, there’s, there’s a lot of nurses in the psychiatric community, unfortunately, and they’re in positions of power. Gee, what a surprise.

So um, anyway, what was I saying? Okay, the antidote to that is self-esteem and get with a good trauma therapist start unpacking this stuff, start recognizing the intermittent positive rewards, the trauma bonding, start recognizing that your parent was completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, healthy normal parents don’t say that to a kid. Ever, ever, ever, you know, it’s like my dad also made a point of telling me that I was an oops baby and I’m just like, Thanks, Dad. You know, it’s like, why would you do that? You know? So self-esteem workbook Glenn Schiraldi, read it CPTSD from surviving to thriving Pete Walker, inner child work with Katherine Taylor or any inner child workbook. I don’t care if these particular books don’t mesh with you. Go find something similar that does it doesn’t have to be those books. I just happen to like those books. So start working on that right and burn a letter to that parent, dear, abusive parent, who in all holy cluck says that to a kid. Nobody’s sane, that’s for sure. Thanks for playing go pound sand, you’re crazy.

Kris Godinez 36:02

Bleep Bleep Bleep Bleep Bleep Bleep. Get out of my head. You don’t get to live up here. rent free. One more second. Bleep the bleep bleep bleep out of bleeding BLEEP you buh bye and then trot it out to the barbecue. Read it out loud once. Burn it. Let it go. Let the words go to heaven or hell, likely hell. But you know what I’m saying? Wherever that person is let the words just get put the wind to carry the words to where they need to go. There you go. Let it go. Bye. Bye. Now go pound sand. Go play in traffic. Buh bye. Bye, bye. See where I’m going with that? So yeah, it’s not fair. And it’s stupid. And it’s abusive. And any parent that says that Oh, my God, you know, and it’s just like, when parents tell the kid they’re stupid. You know, that’s abuse. That is abuse. That is abuse. Who is really stupid, that parent because you tell a child often enough that they’re stupid or they’re bad or they’re not wanted or whatever it wears on them. And that is intentional on their part. Absolutely. So the antidote self-esteem, trauma therapy, breaking the trauma bond, reading the books doing the work, writing, and burning. Yes. So there it is. Okay. And I feel Yeah because I’ve been there done that. Okay. Why didn’t classes? Mo

All right, Why do children of narcissistic parents procrastinate. Avoid health checkups? And even when they have a seriously debating debilitating condition? What purpose does that this avoidance serve is the only thing we have control over guys. It’s the only thing we have control over is being able to not do something. So procrastinate. So show me a procrastinator, and I will show you somebody who had an over-controlling parent. Seriously. So seriously, it’s like, it’s kind of like we dig our heels in the sand and we go, Oh, I’m not gonna do that. I do what I want And I do it when I want. Oh, you know, we do because it’s the only thing we had control over is whether we did or did not do something. So procrastinating is a sign of trauma. It is a trauma response. Hell, yes. So it’s funny because as I was growing up, I had to overcome that. And now I kind of got the attitude if I’m not done earlier if I’m not someplace 15 minutes early on late, which is also a kind of trauma response. But I would rather be early than late.

So it’s equating doing things for yourself. This is self-care, especially if we’re procrastinating on health things. That’s self-care, guys, self care is not all candles and Epsom salts in the bath self-care is making sure you’re going to your yearly physical, making sure that you’re getting things taken care of getting your teeth cleaned, making sure that you’re going to a dermatologist and checking for moles. That’s self-care. You know, all of these little things are self-care. Health is self-care. So when we especially when we had a parent that was controlling and manipulative part of that is trauma response and going screw you I’m not doing it. Nope, no, do what I want. Yeah, it’s kind of like a taking-back power kind of thing in a very kind of maladaptive way. But it’s a common occurrence with survivors of abuse. The other thing of it is, is it self-esteem. If we constantly had an abuser that was like you’re not good enough. You know, you’re you’re stupid, you’re this You’re that bla bla bla bla, thank you for your input. Shut the bleep up. Why? Because I say so. I am good enough. I do deserve to take care of myself and I am going to make that appointment right now. Do you see where I’m going with that? So it’s, it’s a self-esteem issue. People who love themselves, take good care of themselves, drink plenty of water, get their physicals done, make sure that they’re up on their, their health appointments, you know, that kind of thing.

There’s that sort of looking for basic assumption that the abusive parent of origin gave us which was we’re not worth it. We’re not worth it. No, no, you know, we’re, you know, now So it’s working on the self-esteem it’s getting with a good trauma therapist. It is unpacking all of that. Writing and burning, writing and burning, writing and burning. You know, letting that parent know you know what, I just made the appointment Screw you. I’m gonna go take care of myself. This is self-care. I love myself. I love myself enough to do self-care, mirror work. Hi, good to see you have a great day. You know what, it’s okay to get things done. It’s okay to do self-care. It’s okay to make those medical appointments. You are worth it. Why? Cuz I say so. And then you walk out. Absolutely. Absofreakinglutely, but they’re the ones that taught us how not to love ourselves. All right, so I hope that answers that question.

Also, it’s a bit of people-pleasing. So um, think about it. If the abuser kept saying, Don’t you dare Don’t you dare Don’t you dare. Then we quickly go well, what’s gonna make them happy? Oh, they want me to be sick. Oh, and some abusers. Okay, never talked about Munchausen by proxy, some of the abusers want the kids to be sick, or to be harmed, or to be whatever so that they can be the long-suffering, martyr, etc, etc, etc. And there’s a bit of people-pleasing going on with that. So you want to kind of unpack all of them figure out what who, what, when, where, how, why. Write it out, challenge it. And then action. So the action is okay, you need to make these appointments. You’re going to make these appointments, set the alarm, go do it. And then notice how this pops up and tries to sabotage you and then you just

keep smacking down, keep doing the mirror work. Get with a good trauma therapist. Okay, so there’s that hope that answered that question. Okay.

Kris Godinez 41:48

Why would a narc force his wife to do an abortion? If they want another supply? Surely they would welcome the pregnancy or is it to get better control over the wife it’s to get better control over the wife. So basically, what they will do is they will insist on abortion and then they will twist it. So it wasn’t their idea. It was the wife’s idea. And then they guilt guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, you know, I mean, they’re sick, they’re just sick. It’s a way to gain control. And it’s a way to, in a sick way. It’s their way of going see I have absolute control of your body. I can make you pregnant and I can make you get rid of the baby. Denis Leary had a song I cannot sing it because it’s swearing but it’s like because they’re in a hole Leo, Leo Leo. You know, they were they are. That’s what they do. They that’s its power and control, power and control plus the fact think about it hang on.

Oftentimes, what will happen is the narcissist will insist on having a child, the spouse gets pregnant has the baby. And then the narcissist comes unglued. Because the spouse is spending all of their time on the newborn. How many of us have seen that? Oh, boy, I’ve seen that a lot in clients. Oh my god. Yeah. So they’ll have the, the wife get pregnant. And male-female doesn’t matter. Same-sex heterosexual doesn’t matter. So the wife gets pregnant has the baby starts spending the normal amount of time you would with a newborn because newborns are intensive Hello. And then they get pissed and jealous that this child is getting all of this attention and they’ll start trying to make the spouse feel bad and wrong. For spending all this time with this newborn. Yeah, because they’re crazy. So it’s all about power and control. It’s all about power and control. That’s all it is for them. It’s not about this little beautiful being’s life. It’s about power and control for them because they’re jerks. Okay, hope that answer. I keep forgetting I have glasses on. Hope that answered the question. Yeah, you would think that it would be like oh another supply but no, it’s, it’s really to gain control over the spouse is what that’s all about to enflicked guilt. Yup.

Okay. Um, is it common for narc parents to give up the child? I have known a narc who had a baby who had baby after baby. But they gave up the child each time. Um, yeah, it can be it depends on how, what the circumstances are.

Kris Godinez 44:42

You know it narcissists are so strange. So it’s like, yeah, they can do that. They absolutely can. And a lot of times you want to look at what is the motivation? What is the payoff? And so actually, not a lot of times all of the times what’s the payoff? What are they getting out of it? Or you know, are they getting, you know, poor Are they getting the poor? You are? You’re a victim of this. And the other thing that would be covert narcissism? Are they overt narcissists? Are they you know, what are they? What’s the payoff you always want to look at What is the payoff? There’s a payoff of this kind of behavior there is. So, yeah, so yeah, they can do that as well.

Um, do narc parents use their children to make each other jealous? Yes. How on earth? Can a child grasp what’s going on? They can’t. Please, if you could talk about that. Thank you. Okay. So yeah, narcissistic parents will become incredibly jealous of the child. And so, you know, they’ll, they’ll be resent the fact that one partner is paying attention to that, or as the child grows, they’ll use the child as a pawn. Mini-Me, you know, oh, you know, this, they’ll try to alienate while the relationship is still going. Let’s be clear here, guys. parental alienation doesn’t just happen when the divorce happens. parental alienation starts from conception, seriously, because they’ve got an agenda. So they will use the child as a mini-me and they’ll excuse me, they’ll like, try to groom them to be exactly like them, while the relationship is still going. So normal parents, you know, you play with the kid, you’re equal, you’re, you’re happy that they’re spending time with both with an abusive parent with a narcissistic parent, they get jealous if the child obviously prefers spending time with the other parent. And my dad would do that my dad was insanely jealous of my mom because all of us preferred spending time with her than him because he was the crazier of the two not saying much, but yeah, he was. So you know what I’m saying? So it’s like, he would vocalize Well, you know, how come they never want to be with me? Well, maybe it’s because you’re hitting us all the time you jerk. You know, I mean, so yeah, they, they get these weird screwy ideas, and they don’t.

They… jealousy is and especially a child, the child can understand that cognitively. This is what I’ve seen abusers do is that they have children and they expect these little ones like, you know, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 to behave like little adults, cognitively, they cannot. They don’t have the cognitive ability to process things, the way emotions events for the way an adult does. And yet, they expect them to be able to sit for hours and act like a little adult. I mean, it’s just insane. You know, so yeah, they’ve got these weird expectations that are unreasonable, that the child can’t possibly fulfill, and so then they punish them for not being able to sit for hours.  I’m 57 I still can’t sit for hours dear war, you know, but they expect these little 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 year olds to sit for hours and be quiet. And it’s like, that’s not what kids do. Sorry, hate to break it to you.

You know, and they use the kid as a pawn between them and the other parent, they use them as a shield, they use them as protection. So um, what I’ve seen in really dysfunctional families, and my family did this is that, you know, Mom would use us to protect her from dad. So something that I want to point out is that you know, the pawns in a chess game, they’re all there to protect the king and queen, king and queen are not there to protect the ponds. And that’s what children of narcissists end up doing and end up being used as is that we are there to enhance or protect the king and the queen, the narcissist, either male or female, and they’re not there to protect us. It’s kind of like we’re on our own, you know. So it’s, it’s very much it is a game of chess for them. It is and they do use the kids as either their own personal shields or they use the child to inflict pain or jealousy onto the other parent or they use the child to become a mini-me. Or they… you know, there’s not it’s because here’s the thing, kids. Kids are not mini me’s, kids have their own rich inner life, and their own wants, and their own needs. And the second those children reach the point where they’re able to express those things clearly. The abuser comes on glued and starts punishing them for not continuing to be that perfect little mini me.

Kris Godinez 49:38

And these are the these are the parents that are the helicopter parents that insist that the kid plays a sport that the kid doesn’t want to play, but that’s what the parent was good at, or they’ll become the coach for that particular game. So the kid can never get away from them ever get away from them ever. It’s like that parent is right there trying to mold them. You’re going to be me. Damn it, you’re going to be me. Damn it. You’re We’re going to be me damn it, crazy, crazy. And kids cannot process that guys. Kids don’t understand what’s going on. It’s really hard. Being in a dysfunctional family, you come out of that, and you’re just like, What the? What? Just how did? Oh my god, you know, it’s not fun. It’s not fun for the kids. It’s not fun for the other parent. You know, it’s just not and it’s not fair. It’s not fair. And yeah, they do use kids to inflict jealousy. They use kids for everything. So there that is, how are we doing on time? Okay, we’re doing good. All right. glasses. Hang on. Okay. Oh.

So how do you help the child with that? That’s, that’s a good question. I want to answer that before I go to the next question. So with, First of all, you get the hell away from the abuser. That is the best thing to do. And, and of course, then there’s the whole question of okay. 50/50 custody, there’ll be within 50% of the time, they’re going to do parental alienation. What do I do? You know, that whole thing? Well, we’ve talked about that in other videos, you make sure that you get the kids into therapy, play therapy, if they’re little, and they don’t have the cognitive ability to do talk therapy. You get them into play therapy, you get you into trauma therapy, and you start making sure to work on self-esteem for those kids that they have a right to be their own person, they have a right to think their own thoughts. Remember, abusers cannot stand differing opinions, they will punish the child. So for example, I have seen abusers where the kid will say something like, oh, no, thank you. I don’t like bread pudding. I like chocolate pudding. And because the abuser likes bread pudding. Well, why don’t you like bread pudding? You need to like bread pudding? What is wrong with bread pudding? What is wrong with you? You know, and they make it this whole personal attack as to why the kid doesn’t like bread pudding, which they will I know that sounds that sounds crazy. And it is. But it’s real, they do that they, they will attack the child personally for not liking something that the abuser likes. So the way to help the child through all of this is self-esteem and boundaries, self-esteem and boundaries. And then you point out, it’s okay for you to have your own opinions. Whatever mommy or daddy says it’s okay for you to have your own opinion. You can like chocolate pudding if you want to. And you don’t need to like bread pudding. It’s okay. You know, you keep reinforcing that they’re not wrong because what abusers do is they do that personal attack. You’re wrong, you’re bad, you’re stupid. You’re this You’re that if you don’t think exactly like how I think. So the best way to help children through all of this craziness. You get them into a damn good trauma therapist, you make sure that’s written in your divorce decree, you make sure they’re working on self-esteem boundaries. And you make sure that positive affirmations every day, every day, every day, and don’t ignore the kid.

It drives me crazy when adults. You know, when you’re in a group setting and the kids starts to talk, and everybody starts talking over, I will shut everybody down and go I’m sorry. Go ahead. Unlisted. I gotcha. I got you. Oh, okay. Cool. And it’s really thank you for sharing that. That’s awesome. You know you don’t ever shut a kid down. You don’t treat a kid like they’re not a person. They are a person. There’s so little personal, but they’re not mini me. And they don’t have the cognitive ability to process stuff. But they do know when they’re being slighted. They do know when they’re being shut down. They do know when they’re being ignored. They don’t get me started. Okay. So there is that. So self-esteem really is the key to all of this. Okay. All right.

How do you take your power back? How do you get over seeing yourself as a pawn, a resource for parents to brag about someone who needs to succeed? All the time? Excellent question. Thank you for asking that. Okay. So what abusers will do is they will use the kid as a form of aggrandizing themselves. So we get the message very quickly. You have to be perfect. You have to be perfect. You have to make me look good. Oh my god, they do that. So basically, Perfection isn’t possible. We’re not perfect we’re going to make mistakes and in fact, how do we learn by making mistakes that’s the only way to learn is to you know, something didn’t work out well crap that didn’t work out. What could I do differently next time and you do something different? Does that make sense? But with an abuser, they inflict and inject this need for perfection and it stops us I think I’ve talked about this in other videos recently. Where we get this analysis paralysis because we’re like oh my god, I’m not perfect. Oh my god. I needed to be perfect. Oh my God, I need to do this. Oh my God, I need to do that should have, Coulda, Woulda, perfection. It’s all mental mind shenanigans. Okay, so get with A really, really, really good trauma therapist and work on getting rid of the perfectionism. Now, my dad did very similar things, you know, if I made him look good, or I was his if I didn’t make him look good, oh, the abuse was nonstop. So again, it’s CPTSD from surviving to thriving Pete Walker, putting it back onto the abuser, you know, it took me years, but I finally got where I was like, hmm, this has nothing to do with me, everything to do with him. Interesting. Okay, you know, and you don’t allow them to own you, you get out of that mindset of being a pawn by stepping out of the circle, stepping out of the Drama Triangle.

So remember, the Drama Triangle is the villain, the victim, and the hero. So you step out of it, you just don’t play. You just don’t play and you acknowledge yourself for your own abilities and your own successes. And you own those. Write, write yourself a love letter. What do you love about you? What is awesome about you? What is unique about you? And you own that, you know, hey, guess what abuser none of this stuff I just wrote down is about you. It’s about me. So go pound sand. Have a nice life and what I mean by have a nice life. I mean, go pound sand. You know what I’m saying? So you start owning your own successes. It’s like the imposter syndrome, right? Because they keep coming in and taking it away from us. Oh, it’s me. Oh, I made them that way. Oh, I did this for them. Oh, I, I. You know what I’m saying. So you start owning your own successes, and you probably are going to if they’re still in your life, you’re probably going to go low, to no contact, and stop allowing them to step in and take success from you. It’s, they can say whatever they want. And they’re going to, you know, you can’t stop them from doing that. But you know, the truth. And that’s really at the end of the day. That’s what matters. So, anyway, let’s see what else we got. Or if that was the last one.

Yes. So basically, it is working on self-esteem, it is working on boundaries is taking your power back, it is putting it back onto the abuser. And if you know somebody who is being victimized, harmed by one of these people, and they’re putting pressure on them to have kids or whatever, have a talk with them seriously. It’s like do you really want children with this person? You know, do you really they may punch you out of their life? They might? But you know, it’s you at least you will have tried so, um, okay, so I hope that answered the question. They use us as pawns before we’re even conceived we have a job to do before we are even on the scene. So all right guys, go have a great week and I will talk to you next time.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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