We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

03-26-2023 Chaos and Drama
In this episode of We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez, Kris discusses why abusers tend to create, nay, need chaos and drama!

Have you ever noticed some people either create chaos and drama or chaos and drama seems to follow them where ever they go? Have you also noticed that as much as they claim not to like chaos and drama, they still seem to be at the center of said chaos and drama? Red flag alert! You are dealing with someone who is disordered.

You may ask yourself, “Why? Why does this person blow up every relationship? Why does this person seem to enjoy the chaos and the drama? Why and who would want that in their lives?” Rest assured, the chaos and the drama are absolutely intentional on the part of an abuser. It serves many purposes, such as distraction so people are not focused on their wrongdoings and excitement, as many dark triads need adrenaline the way the rest of us need oxygen!

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Current events, holy cow, all right, so Phoenix has a really nasty issue with wrong-way drivers. Sometimes the drivers are impaired like they’re on drugs or alcohol. And sometimes, the drivers are doing intentional…. They’re trying to commit suicide by having somebody else kill them. So just recently, John and I were just talking about this, there was this driver that wanted to commit suicide and left a suicide note in the car, intentionally drove the wrong way on the 101, and intentionally hit another car. She has minor injuries; the other guy is in the hospital in critical condition. So, the selfishness of that act, the selfishness of being impaired, knowing you’re drunk, knowing you’re on drugs, getting into a car, and then intentionally getting onto a public road and running into somebody. That’s inexcusable. I’m sorry. And this happens all the time. I don’t know if this happens in other major cities, but in Phoenix, there is not a month that goes by that we do not have somebody getting onto the wrong way. Wrong road, wrong-way drivers, and either intentionally or unintentionally hitting and killing other people.

It’s just so I looked up wrong-way drivers because we’re kind of on this topic of drama and chaos. And I asked the question. It’s like, are narcissists generally, aggressive drivers are problems driving, and it says are Narcissists as good at driving as they think they are. The answer is no! Narcissists lack empathy, are entitled, and believe that they are not bound by the normal rules. So that’s a little bit of antisocial. Narcissists also don’t believe they are bound by rules, but antisocial really does. So those are dark triads. So, Out of my way! Narcissism is linked to aggressive and reckless driving. So that’s my psychology today. So, I thought that was interesting because narcissists, and here we go, going into our topic here.

Narcissists love to create drama, and they love to create chaos. And it’s interesting because my dad and I write about this in the book. What’s wrong with your dad? He used to play chicken with us in the car and terrorize us, and you want to talk drama, you want to talk chaos, you want to talk screaming, so he would get into the car. And he’s been, you know, he would be, you know, deciding that he was going to, you know, drag race, or he was going to go into the other lane and play chicken with an oncoming car, and then he would enjoy the terror that he saw in our faces. In our eyes. He was a sadist, you know? And that’s generally what dark triads are, is that they’re narcissistic psychopathic Machiavellian. They are control freaks. And they’re sadistic. They enjoy watching the pain and suffering on their target of abuse of face. So, does that mean Phoenix has more narcissists? Well, if you’ve ever been to Scottsdale, you know what I’m saying? So, you know, it’s a possibility, I don’t know. But generally, it’s an absolute lack of concern, lack of empathy for the other person. You know, there was absolutely in that woman’s mind there was absolutely not a care in the world for the fact that she was going to take somebody else out in order to kill herself. There was not another thought of another person at all that that man’s family that that man, nothing, you know, and that to me is the ultimate in antisocial and narcissistic behavior because it’s like the Wow. So um, anyway, Psychology Today it’s all about how narcissists drive recklessly and create drama and chaos doing that.

So, what is up with that? Why do abusers, specifically narcissists, now but realize all of the cluster B’s do the drama and chaos thing. All of them do. So, I wanted to go through the different Cluster B things. So antisocial is a Cluster B, okay, so antisocial’s way of creating chaos is a little bit different than the narcissist way of creating chaos or the borderline’s way of creating chaos for the histrionic’s way. Okay, creating chaos. And realize when I’m talking about this, I’m talking about when they have slid from traits all the way down to completely malignant, okay, I’m not just talking traits of Gosh, it’s something that can be worked on. No, I’m talking, like, all the way down.

So um, antisocial personality disorder creates chaos by causing problems for the family based on their inability to recognize and conform to social norms. In other words, they get off on stealing, lying, cheating, all of this sort of fun stuff, getting in trouble with the law, pushing things, pushing the envelope, getting in trouble at school, that I mean trouble, like, real serious trouble, like violating other people’s privacy, rights, you know, etc., etc. Because the rules don’t apply to them in their minds. So um, so their way of creating chaos is more it affects the people around them. It’s, it’s disturbing to family members that see an antisocial child doing all of these things, arson, etc., etc., etc. If they’re good family members, if they’re not good family members, they don’t care, which is another topic for another day. Oh, God. Anyway, so.

So, the question, okay, so then all of these personality disorders, all of the cluster Bs tend to do chaos and drama, each in their own way. And each for different reasons. So, with the antisocial, it’s not so much to distract. They don’t. They’re not really thinking about the family, other family members, or how this is affecting them. For them. It’s about the adrenaline. It’s about the you know, I you know, I want, I see I take kind of thing. And so, they create legal drama and chaos for the family and for themselves, but it’s not so much with an objective or a goal in mind. However, with the other personality disorders, there is an objective and a goal in mind. So, let me just kind of go through these, um.

So histrionic personality disorder. So, they tend to be very, very, very dramatic, I mean, to the nth degree, so like, literally mountains out of molehills and, you know, a small thing is suddenly a screaming, MiMi. Oh, my God, there’s Oh, this is very dramatic, and they tend to be very shallow effect. And they have a lot of opinions, but they don’t have a lot of actual facts to back up those opinions. They also tend to be chameleons because they want to be liked. So, they are very dramatic, very chameleon-like, they have to be the center of attention. Honestly, I’m thinking that histrionic is probably going to get rolled over into other kinds of combined with other personality disorders. They have to be the center of attention. They tend to dress very provocatively. Now, this is kind of the thing that separates them from narcissists and separates them from borderline personality disorder. And I want to be very, very clear. Again, I in talking at the extreme end of the spectrum, I’m not talking about people have been diagnosed that still have an opportunity to work on themselves. I’m talking about the ones that have said no to therapy and have gone all the way over okay. histrionic personality disorder, they tend to be inappropriate in how they relate to other people, they dress provocatively. So, like, for example, you go to, you know, a meeting, and instead of being dressed in business casual, they look like they’re heading out to the nightclub, you know, that kind of thing. They tend to relate to people in a very sexual way, and it’s always sexual, and it’s always, you know, they’re very somatic. It’s very much about appearances. It’s very much about how they look, and they have to always be the center of attention, and everything is like DEF CON one, as far as drama is concerned. So, like, if they forget,

Kris Godinez  09:57

I don’t know their wallet at home instead. have, oh, I forgot my wallet at home, I need to turn around and go back. It’s this huge, generally Broadway production, you know, and it’s lots of crying and lots of screening and lots of upset and lots of blaming. So, personality disorders are very similar, but they’re distinct. So, they have a lot of overlap. Dealing with somebody who has histrionic personality disorder generally is difficult, and it’s difficult to get them into therapy. Because they again, do the whole, there’s nothing wrong with me, there’s nothing wrong with what I’m doing, you know, and the only time they generally go get therapy is when they are depressed. And generally, it has to do with if a relationship has failed. If a relationship’s failed, then they’ll go into therapy, and then they’ll get some help. But then, as soon as they start feeling better, they leave. That tends to be the way that one goes, you know, they’ll immediately get involved with another person to distract themselves from their issue. And there they go. So histrionic personality disorder tends to create a lot of drama, but it’s more, it’s more about them, you know, literally, like when somebody walks into a room and says, it’s all about me, oh, yeah, they’re not lying. Yeah, they’re not lying. And so, they will create a production, and all eyes must be on them. So, there is that so, um, histrionic personality disorder, self-centeredness, feeling uncomfortable when not the center of attention. And this is on Psychology Today, constantly seeking reassurance or approval, inappropriate. And here’s the here’s the distinction from the other one’s inappropriate, seductive appearance or behavior, rapidly shifting emotional states that appear shallow to others. So, they can literally go from sobbing to perfectly fine and laughing in, like, two seconds. I mean, there’s it. They shift gears like amazing, and then they can be angry, and then there’ll be back to perfectly fine and then, but it’s all really shallow. There’s no depth to it. It’s like it’s performative. It’s like it’s a show. It’s like they’re, you know, showing you their emotions as opposed to having their emotions, if that makes any sort of sense. All right, opinions are easily influenced by other people but difficult to back up with details. overly concerned with physical appearance, using physical appearance to draw attention to themselves, excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotion. So, like Broadway show, they’re playing to the balcony, tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are. Very clingy. And they will, you know, immediately they get into an office situation, and suddenly they’re best friends with everybody you know, and that’s kind of a red flag, highly suggestible, easily influenced by others. They lack self-awareness and have low emotional intelligence, so they can’t, they don’t even know who they are, let alone what other people are feeling. So, and causes again, genetics nurture nature, both? Is it related to narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, and histrionic personality disorder can sometimes overlap. These two disorders are within the Cluster B group of personality disorders. People in this group suffer thinking and behavior patterns that are unpredictable or erratic. They are also engulfed in high drama that is centered on the self. Okay. So, the histrionic way of doing drama, like I said, is generally more performative. It’s more like they lost their purse, they lost this that, you know, something, they broke up, something happened, and it’s the world is ending kind of thing. And it’s, you know, like I said, you know, going through all the emotions but not really feeling them, and it’s very performative. So, they create drama, that way. Okay, so that is histrionic.

So, borderline personality disorder, intense fear of abandonment, going to extreme measures to avoid real or imagined separation or rejection, a pattern of unstable intense personal relationships such as idealizing someone one moment and then suddenly believing that person doesn’t care enough, or is cruel the next. Rapid changes in self-identity and self-image that includes shifting goals and values and seeing yourself as all bad or that you don’t exist at all. periods of stress-related paranoia and loss of contact with reality lasting from a few minutes to a few hours, impulsive and risky behaviors such as gambling, reckless driving, unsafe sex spending sprees, binge eating and drug abuse, or sabotaging success by suddenly quitting a good job or ending a positive relationship. Suicidal gestures or behaviors or threats of self-injury, often in response to fear of separation or rejection. So that creates a lot of drama. Wide moods, wide mood swings lasting from a few hours to a few days, which can be happiness, irritability, shame or anxiety, ongoing feelings of emptiness, or sometimes described as boredom. So, they’re bored. Which is really not really. So as soon as, as soon as the client says they’re bored, I’m like, No, you’re not what’s really going on, because they’re either masking an uncomfortable feeling, or they just don’t know what they’re feeling. And so, they need help kind of figuring it out.

So, borderlines have a tendency to rage. And they have a tendency to go completely off the deep end. And they take things intensely personally, their form of drama is different than the narcissist different than the histrionic. So, it’s like. It’s a lot of miscommunication. And their fear is what drives the raging and the drama, and you don’t love me, and you know, the back and forth, and this and that. So, it’s, again, it’s a lot of drama, and it’s not stable there. The big difference with borderline personality disorder is it’s unstable, unstable personal relationships. It’s lots of enemies, they make lots of enemies, they have a tendency to come unglued over things that are not personal, but they’ll take them personally. So, if somebody sighs, just sighing because humans sigh. You know, if a dog yawns, probably, I’m going to yawn, you know, we sigh, we do things like that, but they’ll assume that it’s about them. Everything has to be about them. And it’s about them. And so, they have to go on the attack. And it’s a personal attack that you sighed because their thinking is disordered.

You have to understand they don’t think the way that healthy people think. They’ve got a very twisted way of thinking. And for them. It’s like if somebody sighs, “Oh, they’re going to abandon me, oh, they’re going to do this to me, Oh, they’re going to do that, to me, well, I need to go on the attack.” And it’s really it has nothing to do with the person who has borderline personality disorder. But they take things so intensely personally, and it’s not. And that’s drama because your… God, you’re walking on eggshells, Randy Krieger good book, get it, you’re walking on eggshells because the person with borderline personality disorder is going to take everything you do as a sign of abandonment, a sign of disrespect, a sign of your going to leave a sign of, you know like them. And it’s all in their head. It is all in their head and the only personality disorder therapy that works with borderline personality, I mean, really well. CBT does, okay. DBT does the best. So, if somebody’s got borderline personality disorder, and they want help go to a program that is specifically for dialectic behavioral therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder because they generally will do group sessions and individual and that’s the only thing that seems to work on that because you’ve really got to undo all of the maladaptive self-protective way of thinking that causes all this drama. Does that make sense? So, it and borderline if it’s caught in the earlier stages can be worked on because a lot of it is drama, trauma. Does that make sense? It’s trauma from the original family, if they get the drama from the original family that trauma happened with the family of origin. And so, these are all maladaptive behaviors that they’ve made to make themselves safe, and it doesn’t work, obviously. So um, so they’re very dramatic, they’re very intensely take things intensely personal, this is a personal attack on going to get you raging, etc.

So, the best thing to do with that is don’t play if somebody starts raging, you walk away, it’s like, you know, you can say, hey, my yawn, my sigh has nothing to do with you. And if they continue to rage, you simply walk out. You do not participate because they need an audience. So again, it’s this weird kind of validation attention that they’re getting, and we’re going to talk more about that because that then goes into narcissism. So, hold on, did I get everything, ongoing feelings of emptiness or boredom? Inappropriate, intense anger? Yeah, we talked about that.

Okay. So, narcissists, narcissists have to be the center of attention. We all know that narcissists literally say things like love me or hate me, just don’t ignore me.

Kris Godinez  19:37

Like literally, they…I’ve had classmates like that, you know, I mean, they will say and do things like that. They do things with an agenda. So, the difference between the narcissist and the borderline and the histrionic is that the narcissist lacks empathy completely, completely lacks empathy, probably with the anti-social as well. But with the narcissist, there’s no empathy there. They cannot put themselves in another person’s shoes. And the things that they do to create drama are intentional because they’re trying to control the narrative.

So, five terrifying ways that narcissists and this is on Psych central the ways narcissists and psychopaths manufacture chaos and drama to provoke you. They integrate, instigating crazy making arguments, logic loops, they bait you, they do things like that, it’s to get you wound up so that you’re the bad guy. That’s really what their goal is. They want you to think that you’re the one that’s the problem. So, they’ll sit there and poke the bear, poke the bear, poke the bear, poke the bear. Crazy arguments doesn’t make sense. Logic loop going in circles, word salad, that’s one of the things that they do. And of course, you know, a person that doesn’t understand this is trying to make sense of what they’re saying and try to respond to what everything that they’re saying. And you can’t because half the time, it doesn’t make sense because they’re just doing word salad. They’re just like, well, um, you know, will you do this and other than that, and it’s all of a sudden, you’re talking about a car, I mean it. They don’t make sense. And they’re trying to confuse you. And they’re trying to make you, they’re trying to gaslight you, and they’re trying to do all sorts of things to make you think that you’re the problem. That is their goal with those instigating arguments that make no sense doing the logic loops, doing the word salad to make you doubt yourself, and to drop the original issue that you wanted to bring up to them. Like, say, for example, they’re spending the money hand over fist that is coming into the household, right? Well, you bring it up to them, and what do they do? They flip the script. If you know, they know they’ve been caught red-handed. So now they’re going to do a logic loop, they’re going to flip it, and somehow, it’s now all your fault, or it doesn’t even make sense how they’re defending. They’re spending all of the money. Does that make sense? So, this is what they do, there’s an agenda, there’s an agenda for the way that they behave.

Okay, hold on back to the five terrifying ways ruining holidays, special occasions are sabotaging you before big events. So, narcissists absolutely have to be the center of attention. 110%. And if they’re not, it drives them crazy. They cannot stand it if somebody is doing something fun or enjoying themselves or whatever. So, this is why you will have at Thanksgiving, Christmas, you know, major holiday events where the family is together; everything is going great. And all of a sudden, the narcissist in the room says or does something that starts an argument or ruins the dinner, right? Or they do or say something, and somebody doesn’t want to misbehave. And so they get angry and storm out, and they fully expect the rest of the dinner to be ruined. They do this because it makes them feel powerful. It is all about power and control. It is it’s about them being right in their sick and twisted little minds. So, families of origin. I mean, I can’t tell you the number of holidays that were ruined by my dad because he would say or do something completely inappropriate. Or he would just, you know, I would say or do something he didn’t like, and he just turned around back hand me at the dinner table on me at the dinner table. You know? And then, of course, I would be like, Oh, hell no, you know, and it would be ruined, it would be ruined. So um, they do this because it makes them feel powerful. And if you’ll notice, they tend to pick on the family members that they don’t think are going to fight back or the family members that will fight back in such a way that will make them be like, oh, well, they’re crazy. Oh, well, that member is crazy. Oh, well done. You know, so the drama is intentional. They can’t stand happiness. Let me just be very clear. narcissists cannot stand happiness. They cannot. They don’t like it when other people are feeling emotions that they can’t feel it makes them angry because you have something that they don’t. And because they are operating on the level of less than a two-year-old. How dare you have something that they don’t, so they’re going to ruin it. They’re going to ruin it. Okay, so ruining holiday special events or sabotaging you before important events.

So, I had a roommate once back in the day when I was living in LA. I had an audition coming up, and he decided that he was going to suddenly have some sort of breakdown, right, and I can’t see; I’m blind I’m blind. I’m like, Okay, well there’s nothing that physically happened to you. There’s, you know, you need to go to a psych hospital. So, I ended up driving them to a psych hospital. And then, as soon as my audition was over, he was perfectly fine. And, of course, it didn’t get the job. So, you know, it just Things like that. It’s like they do those things on purpose. They create drama right before something important to sabotage you so that you don’t get the job, so that you don’t go on the vacation so that you don’t whatever because it makes them feel powerful to do that. So that instance would be called malingering. So, when somebody pretends to be ill, and they’re not, and it’s to control and manipulate, it’s called malingering. So, pretending to have a mental illness or physical illness in order to get the attention. That’s malingering. So anyway, um, okay.

It’s common, it’s not uncommon for narcissists to begin crazy, making arguments right before the day of a big event or interview to make you cry on your birthday or to purposely forget to give you a gift on your anniversary or Christmas or birthday or whatever. They may even ruin celebrations by actively provoking you behind closed doors before attending family events to make you look like the crazy one. Number three provoking jealousy and using love triangles to make you compete. Common with narcissists sleep deprivation. Yeah, stonewalling and silent treatment.

Okay, now let’s go over to the Drama Triangle. Are you stuck in a narcissist Drama Triangle? Three potential rules and how you can get out. So, narcissists love triangles of any kind. So, communication triangles, they love that they love to be the operator. So that’s another way to create drama. Well, so and so said such and such about you. Okay, so that’s them creating drama that way. And that’s also them turning you against another person that probably didn’t say what they’re saying that you said. They said, you said, Does that make sense? So, in a game of operator, the best way to stop that triangle is if the narcissist comes to you and says, so and so said such and such about you. Great. Get them on the phone. Get them on the phone. Let’s clear this up right now. That’s the best way to stop it. And usually, they backpedal. As soon as you do that, they’re like, oh, no, no, no, you know, so but the other triangle is the Drama Triangle. So, the Drama Triangle is the persecutor, which is usually the role the narcissist takes the victim, scapegoat, and the rescuer. So, they love to set up this Drama Triangle. The persecutor is a role that’s particularly suits the narcissist they dominate; they know best and ignore other people’s opinions. When things go wrong. It’s because if somebody else is useless, and it’s always somebody else’s fault, they may bully others and become aggressive if you don’t give them their way. They may use passive aggression as a means to be nasty to people by persecuting others, the narcissist’s fragile sense of identity is shored up, and their need to exert power over others is met. And they can switch between these roles. So, this is a game again that narcissists play to keep you off-centered. So, then they can flip from being the persecutor to the victim. Well, that’s over covert kind of victims view of the world as being against them. Like the persecutor. when anything goes wrong in their life, it isn’t their fault. They project a helpless image to those around them and manipulate others into helping them. I call them ask holes. They are exhausting to be around vulnerable narcissists in particular are often playing the victim so covert. So basically, it’s the Help me, Help me, Help me, to help them two seconds later, help me help. They’re assholes, and they want you to spend all of your energy fixing them. Don’t do it. If they are a black hole seriously, you cannot fix them because you did not break them. So, then the other part of the Drama Triangle is the rescuer rest narcissists can also be the rescuer.

Kris Godinez  29:21

They may surround themselves with people who they view as weaker than they. This also meets their need to be surrounded by people who feel too threatened to offer a challenge. Rescuing people can meet their need for attention, and they look like the good guy to everyone else. Being the rescuer can also mean that they can control the person that they’ve rescued. This is why I say be very careful when you are working with helping professions because my profession is filled with narcissists literally like I’ve seen some psychiatrists that I wanted to throat punch you know nurses, doctors, you’ve got to be careful if some if it walks like a narcissist and quacks like a narcissist and takes a dump like a narcissist, it’s a frickin narcissist, I don’t care if they have a PhD in front of their name, or behind their name or whatever. So be aware of that. So, the Drama Triangle, and they switch between all of these different roles depending on what suits them.

Now here’s the other thing I wanted to bring up. 11 reasons why narcissists create drama and chaos and 11 reasons why narcissists love drama, and this is on inner toxic relief. They crave attention of any kind. No attention is bad attention. They need to stay in the spotlight so that they can get their narcissistic needs met their cocaine. They get the adoration; they need to feel good. But even if it’s not admiration they’re after, even if they’re the bad guy, at least people are talking about them. And that makes them feel powerful. In their mind, others will see their superiority because they’re cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Narcissists want to control everyone. So, if they’re the ones that literally set off the bomb in the middle of the room, they will then sit back and enjoy it. You know, and feel like they are the ones in control that oh, look at what I did. Look at this disaster that I have brought, oh, look at this wonderful arguing going on, you know, and to them in their heads. They’re controlling the whole board. They have grandiose ideas of omnipotence, Narcissists cannot take responsibility when they have done something wrong; you can bet your sweet bippy they are going to do something to distract you from what they have done. So, because they cannot take personal responsibility, they’re going to blow something up, they’re going to create an argument, they’re going to do something and take your mind off of what they’ve done. And you have to go running around putting out all these little fires.

That’s another reason that narcissists create chaos and drama is to distract it so that you’re not paying attention. Hey, they did this, Hey, they’re the ones that set off the emotional bomb in the middle of the living room. Hey, they’re the ones that are, you know, cheating, lying, stealing, etc., etc., etc. Narcissists believe that being complicated equals being intelligent or equals being interesting. So many narcissists, particularly grandiose narcissists value intelligence as a sign of superiority. They also believe that a sign of intelligence is someone who is complicated or who thinks and acts in a complicated manner. So, if there’s an easy answer or a complicated answer, they’re always going to go for the convoluted, complicated answer because they think it makes them sound more intelligent. You know, or if they’re if they’re, you know, mysterious, you know, they a lot of the Guru’s a lot of the commute, communal narcissist, do the whole Oh, I’m so mysterious. I’m so complex on so, you know, this, that, and the other thing, so. Yeah. And so, it’s, again, it’s power and control, and they want to be perceived in a certain way. So, they try on these different roles.

Okay, narcissists want to keep you off balance. The main reason they cause drama and chaos is because they don’t want to give you too much time to think about what they are saying or doing. They fear often, rightly so, that you will figure out and the truth and be able to see through their manipulation. If that happens, one of their sources of narcissistic supply is in danger. And you might expose the ugly truth about their true nature, so they keep you off balance. That’s why they do the drama. If you’re constantly, you know, if you’re constantly trying to stay out of trouble and try not to get hit by dad or try not to be screened out by mom, you’re not going to have time to sit down and go wait a minute, you know what, none of this is normal. What, what, what? Do you see where I’m going with that.

So that’s why they do that’s why the parents do that. So really quickly, and we will get to questions. What ends up happening is hold on narcissist. Don’t care about your plans, especially if you made them, they would intentionally blow them up. narcissists always have a hidden agenda to manipulate to control to be in power to make you feel less than they absolutely will not go with the flow. If you’ve created something or you want to go do something, they’ll throw a monkey wrench into the plan every time because it makes them feel superior to upset plans at the last minute, and they don’t care about the drama and upset that it creates. narcissists get bored, and so it pleases them they’re sadistic to watch people be unhappy. They switch roles in the Drama Triangle, and they have to win.

So unfortunately, when we are raised in a family of origin where there is just drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, we come out of that. And to us, that was normalized, so drama and chaos feel normal to us. And peace and serenity feel Scary. So that is a side effect of coming out of a family of origin. That was drama, and chaos is that we come out of it, and it’s peaceful and quiet, and we go, oh, how can I screw this up? How can I get some excitement? How can I? Oh, this is boring. You know, we tell ourselves now because they told us that, so you know, oh, this is boring peace and quiet as boring or, ooh, this feels scary. I don’t like it. I don’t feel safe. Well, it’s because we were used to the drama and the chaos that was going on in the family of origin, which then sets us up for if we do not go get help and do not read all of the books, sets us up for dating, or marrying an abuser because it feels familiar. The Chaos feels familiar. The drama. Oh, does he love me? Does he hate me? Does she love me? Does she hate me? Oh my gosh, the intermittent positive rewards, all of that is drama. And that sets us up because it feels familiar. And we’re attracted to that because it feels familiar.

That’s why it’s so vital to get with a damn good trauma therapist. I don’t care where you get them from. Just get one and start working on C-PTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker. The Disease to Please which works on codependency The Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker because you want to break that trauma Drama Triangle. Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, so you want to get to the point where you know yourself inside and out, and nobody can tell you who you are, you know who you are. Because remember, narcissists love to tell you who you are and what you like. So, start working those books, get with a good trauma therapist, work on yourself, and work on gee, this feels really familiar. Hmm, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Do you see where I’m going with that? Because we tend to go Oh, it feels familiar. It must be good. Okay, if you were raised in a healthy family, yeah, that would be okay. But being raised by a narcissist or borderline, histrionic, and there’s lots of drama, lots of chaos, lots of crying, lots of anger, lots of this, lots of that. Lots of distraction. That familiarity is not necessarily a good thing. You really want to take a look at what you’re attracted to, if it’s based on ooh, this feels familiar. So that’s why it’s really important. Get with a good trauma therapist start working on this stuff.

Okay, I think we’re going to dive into the questions now. So, to wrap it up in a nice little bow. So basically, the cluster bees are really adept at creating chaos and drama, and there’s a reason for it. And each one of the reasoning is a little different. Antisocial, they break all the rules break their families, hearts etc., etc., etc. Histrionic. It’s a lot of superficial feelings, lots of performative kind of thing look at me. Look at me inappropriate coming on to people and appropriate dressing etc. Borderline Personality Disorder, the fear of being abandoned, taking things intensely personally, deciding that that’s the reason, and then they just come unglued. Narcissist, though it’s to distract. They want you to not figure out that they are the problem. And it’s enjoyment for them. Because if they’re dark triad, antisocial psychopath, narcissist, they, you know, they enjoy it. And they’re sadistic, and they enjoy watching the target of abuse be confused. And they enjoy watching us run around in circles because and be in pain because they’re sadistic. And they don’t want us to figure out that they’re the problem. So. All right, let’s go to the questions, shall we?

Okay. ostracizing narc family that had no contact with me for more than 10 years. Came back after my cancer diagnosis. Why? Well on a guess, and of course, I don’t have them in front of me. So, I’m just I’m, what’s the word I’m looking for?

Kris Godinez  39:12

I’m extrapolating. No, that’s not the word. I’m sorry. My brain just went, Oh, it’s based on an educated guess. Okay. A medical diagnosis. That’s cancer is drama. It is. It’s a way for them to, you know, play the Drama Triangle, the persecutor, the victim, and the rescuer. So, in this case, if they’re narcissistic, and they’ve ostracized you, and you had nothing to do with them for 10 years, and they find out you have cancer. Now, all of a sudden, they want to get back in touch with you. Okay, that feels, and I could be wrong because I don’t have them in front of me, but it feels like speculating. Thank you. That’s the word I was looking for. Um, It feels like this is the socially correct thing to do. Oh, I haven’t had contact with this family member in 10 years, and now they’ve got cancer. I should go, you know, so I don’t look like the bad guy. Does that make sense? So, my whole thing of it is, it’s like if somebody has not had contact with you in 10 years, and their first contact with you is after they find out from somebody else that you have cancer, stay no, stay, no, stay no contact. You know, it’s they’re doing it for whatever reasons they have, you know, and if you’ve been happier without them, stay no contact. You know, I would be very cautious about getting back into touch with them. And usually, it’s, again, narcissists, psychopaths, whatever they dark triads. They love to give the appearance of being this, you know, loving, communal narcissist. They love to do this. Oh, I’m such a, I’m such a loving, kind family member. Oh, look, I’m caring for this family member that has a medical issue. Look at me, look at me, Look at me is basically what it is. So yeah, I would be very, very cautious. So usually, you know, if somebody really is a narcissist, if they are abusive, there is nothing that they do that does not have some sort of agenda for them. What how is this going to benefit them? That would be the question to ask yourself, how is that going to benefit them? Because it’s certainly not going to benefit you if you’ve been, you know, away from them for 10 years and perfectly happy. And they’re suddenly like, oh, no, I need to be in your life because now you’ve got cancer. How’s this going to benefit them? That’s the question you need to ask yourself. So, it’s always an agenda. It’s always with some reason. There’s some reason they’re doing it. And it’s usually to benefit themselves somehow.

Do narcissists think in a chaotic way? They seem to tell stories in a very disjointed way. Like they’re filling in the gaps with things they made up themselves and insist the truth. Oh, boy, okay. So, narcissists do not feel the way we do, okay? They do not have the empathy that we have. So, when we’re telling a story, you know, we’re telling a story with, like, full gusto, right? narcissists tend to lie for the sake of lying, especially if they are dark triads because they enjoy it because they want to see what they can get away with seriously, like, seriously, like, if they’ve got that antisocial psychopathic thing going on. They want to see what they can get away with. And I think I talked a few weeks ago about pathological lying. It’s not in the DSM five. It should be. But it’s when they lie, and they know they’re lying, but they will swear on the Bible that it’s God’s truth, what they’re saying. And they convinced themselves that what they’re saying is the truth. So. Ah, yeah. So yeah, they can tell well-rehearsed stories, but they tend to like lying because it gives them that rush, it gives them that adrenaline rush, can I get away with saying it? Can I get away with this story? That’s not true, and have them believe it? Because then that makes them feel powerful? Again? So yeah, that’s, yeah, they do they think in a chaotic way. Okay. So, here’s, here’s, here’s something to think about. You can have comorbidity between all of the diagnoses, like, you could be narcissistic and have major depression, you can be narcissistic, and have borderline, you can be narcissistic and have whatever fill in the blank. Um, so can they have chaotic thinking? Yeah, if they’re, if it’s comorbid, with Borderline freak, yeah, yeah, absolutely, they can have that. Um, it’s really interesting to watch somebody that has the two personality disorders. Because it’s like, you can almost see, when one takes over the other, and they tend to start doing this, the further down the line they get. So, all of the personality disorders start overlapping as you get more and more malignant. You know, so, again, its psychology is fascinating to me. It’s just the different ways that they do things, and psychopaths in particular, love to do pathological lying. And it’s almost like it’s almost like there’s a part of them. It’s like, can I get away with it? Can I fool this person, you know, but The problem of it is, is that they’re not very good at it.

So that that might be part of what you’re seeing. So, it’s like, so I was watching signs of a psychopath, right? And in almost every single one of the episodes, the person who did the crime would try to pull a fast one on the investigators. And yet, their stories, you know, trying to come up with on the fly. Their stories were disjointed like you said, and they would say things that would eventually get them caught, almost as if they wanted to be found out. So, it’s really a weird thing that narcissists do. They will point blank tell you I’m a narcissist, right? And a lot of times, and when somebody does that, that’s when I’m like, shields up. Red alert, you know? No, we’re not going there. Thank you. So, they give things away in what they say. It’s really, It’s interesting. Um, are they filling in the gaps is they made okay and insistence the truth. So, a pathological liar does that they will fill in the gaps was stuff they don’t really know.

And try to make it sound plausible. It’s just like they did on signs of a psychopath. Really good show, if you ever want to watch it. And yeah, and then they lie. And they insist that it’s the truth. And this one that I was watching and Signs of a Psychopath, the newest season. This kid was just insisting and insisting and insisting and insisting, thank God, the sheriff’s deputy or whoever was interviewing was just like, you know, that’s not the truth. I know that’s not the truth. And he just calm gray rock kept hammering at him. And finally, the kid finally broke down and told the truth, finally, you know, but he was going to go to the end, just continuing to lie. So yeah, they do that. Absolutely.

Um, is histrionic personality disorder caused by trauma like BPD? I think so. I do. Because it’s weird. It’s like histrionic; they need to be the center of attention. But their affect is very shallow. And it’s a lot of sexual stuff. It’s a lot of dressing provocatively and being overly dramatic. I mean, like, you know, seriously, like a Broadway show, but they’re playing to the, to the top pier of the, you know, the balcony, you know, that kind of thing. I think it is. I do. I do think it is it, in part is caused by trauma. So again, it’s like nature, nurture. Is there a predisposition to this? Yeah, I think there is. I think there is a predisposition to personality disorders, nurture than either pushes you over the cliff or holds you back from the cliff. So yeah, I do think it is caused by trauma. And I do think that getting with a good DBT therapist can help. I really do if they’re willing to go to therapy, that’s part of the problem. So again, there’s this little bit of narcissism also kind of in there, where they’re like, oh, there’s nothing wrong with me. So that’s why I’m saying I’m not so sure that histrionic is going to forever be its own diagnosis because it’s very overlapped with narcissism. It really is. There’s a lot of narcissistic traits in histrionic. So yeah, there that is, okay.

Could you explain withholding physical or mentally I mean, withholding of financial support, intimacy, physical, intellectual, emotional, social, spiritual. emotional abandonment happens when I’m upset or excited. They shut me down, as they aren’t capable of sitting without being the center of attention. Okay, so I’m assuming you’re talking about parents.

Kris Godinez  49:12

And this is true for parents or for romantic partners. Abusive parents, abusive, romantic partners do not feel the way that we feel they don’t. They don’t process emotions. When we feel, we feel it. You know, we’re empathic. We can put ourselves in somebody else’s shoes. When we’re joyful. We’re joyful. When we’re sad. We are truly sad. When we’re angry. Oh, boy, we’re angry. You know, they don’t feel those emotions the same way we do. So, when somebody is having an emotion, happy, sad, angry, whatever, they will shut them down. They will shut them down. I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve talked to adult children of narcissists and borderlines, etc. That would tell me that when they were growing up and would have an emotion, the parents would either oddly be, like, angry at them for having an emotion or just not care. So, like something happened, that was good. And the kid is excited about it, and the mom is like, Yeah, whatever. What? No, did you want to talk to that kid and be like, hey, good for you. That’s great. Tell me more, right? But a narcissistic parent, a borderline parent, if they’re malignant, they’re going to be like, I don’t care kid, whatever, go away kid, you bother me kind of thing. Or they’ll be angry at the child for being so happy. I’ve seen that that was their excuse for punishing them for abusing them. There’ll be angry at them for being angry; I’ll give you something to be angry, Oh, you think you’re angry? I’ll give you something to be angry. Or the kid is crying, oh, I’ll give you something to cry because they can’t feel they don’t have empathy.

So, a normal parent, when a child’s having an emotion. You engage with them. Oh, honey, I’m sorry. You’re sad? What’s happening? What are you sad about? How can I help? You know that kind of thing? Or you’re angry? I hear that you’re angry. What happened? Tell me more. You know, it’s like you engage with them. You don’t shut them down. You don’t shut them off. You don’t shove them to the side. You don’t, you know, but personality-disordered parents don’t understand the emotion. They can’t feel it themselves. They can’t understand why you’re feeling it. And that pisses them off. So, they’re going to shut you do because it makes them uncomfortable. Or, yeah, you’re the center of attention, you’re having this emotion of boy howdy, they’re going to shut you down because they need to be the center of attention. That’s what they do, because they’re disordered. That is not a normal parent. That is not a normal romantic partner, normal romantic partner, again, will engage and ask questions, and you know, do you mean anything? Can I do anything? You know that kind of thing. So. So there is that? Okay, let me see if I answered this question.

So withholding is also called stonewalling. So stonewalling is where the abuser just won’t talk to you. I’m not going to talk to you. You don’t exist. And then they ignore you for literally sometimes months until they finally deign to talk to you again, and then you’re expected to be, Oh, so grateful because they’re showering you with attention. So stonewalling is a way to inflict hurt. And they’ve shown in multiple studies that when somebody is shunned, it lights up the same pain centers in the brain as physical pain. It is physically painful to be shunned, to be stonewalled. So, they do this to manipulate to control, and to put you back in your place. So, if they want to make sure that you’re toeing the line, they’ll do the stonewalling. They’ll do the shunning so that you’re feeling pain and you’re begging for their attention. And, of course, they’re not going to give it to you until they feel like they are ready. And then they’ll give it to you, and then you’re expected to be extremely grateful for that. So, it’s a manipulation; it’s a control. It’s a punishment. It’s a way to make you compliant, basically, because then you live in fear of being shunned again. So, you know, what can I do? What can I do to keep from being shunned? You know that kind of thing. So yeah, I hope that answered the question.

Are narcissists addicted to negativity? They can be Yeah, absolutely. They keep creating all these bad events, drama and seem to revel in them. Yes. And that’s partly because of the Drama Triangle. So, the victim all these bad things are happening. Oh, it’s happening, and I had nothing to do with it. Why does this always happen to me bla bla bla bla bla, that is what they tend to do. So, they revel in the negative stuff because they can’t feel the good stuff. So, for example, there are I’ve heard multiple stories from multiple adult children of narcissists. And people who are married to children, adult children of narcissists, that the mother-in-law is just negative, negative negative negative negative and if something good happens she gets loosey-goosey like can’t stand it like ants the pants no can’t have happy you know that kind of thing and will set about to ruin it. Or if something happy happens they’ll immediately try to start bringing up negative stuff because that’s comfortable to them and they get to play the victim. So, everything has to be native Debbie Downer, you know, Danny Downer whatever, because they enjoy it fits their narrative, especially if they’re the victims all the time, if they’re the covert narcissist and they’re always, you know, this is always happening to me, Why does this always happen to me? You know, that kind of thing, looking for sympathy. So, into them again, it’s this weird, disordered thinking where it’s exciting to them, so they can’t muster excitement for happy things. But to them gossip and negativity, and that feels like intrigue. That feels like they’re important if they if they’ve got the end on something bad happening, that they’re somehow important and that they are very much attracted to that. So, you’re not wrong. So yeah, they do they are they love negativity like nobody’s business.

All right, kids, here is my thoughts on this. If you know somebody who is just a drama king, or a drama queen, constantly causing chaos. And this means this goes for every aspect of your life, whether this is at work, whether this is at home, whether this is with your family of origin, whether this is whatever, these people are dedicated to you not living your best life, and all of this smoke and mirrors that they’re doing is to keep you from figuring out that you’d be so much happier without them, basically. So, when you are confronted with somebody who is chaos, chaos, chaos, drama, drama, drama, and they’re a narcissist, get the hell out, get the hell out. You cannot fix them, because you did not break them. If they are histrionic. You know what, I’m not participating in this. This is not going to get you what you want. You need therapy. Here’s a DBT therapist go to town. Same thing with borderline, I’m not playing in this. I’m not going to engage in this. This is not personal. Get a DBT therapist, but don’t engage guys. Don’t play their game.

Don’t do any of the triangles don’t do the Drama Triangle rescuer, persecutor victim, and don’t do the communication triangle. Operator and then the two innocents over here that don’t know that this person is putting words in somebody else’s mouth. So basically, the big thing is don’t play, don’t play. It’s a game. It is a game. It is a game for each one of the cluster B’s there’s a different reason they’re doing it and there’s a different way it presents, but the end effect is that it drives the people around them. absolutely to distraction. It keeps people from living their best life. It creates anxiety and depression. And this person is not going to change if they’re willing to get if the if the histrionic and the borderline are willing to go get help hazzah! That’s great narcissists don’t. They’ll say they’ll go get help. They’ll say they’re going to change. They’ll go three times and then they’ll stop and declare the therapist incompetent. So, narcissists do this to take the pressure off of them. They don’t want us to figure out that they are the problem.

All right, my love’s there that is I have no idea what I’m talking about next week. But you guys so have a drama free week, a chaos free week. Go drink plenty of water, enjoy the sunshine, and hopefully everything goes well. And I will talk to you next week.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

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