We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

05-1-2022 When Friends and Family Show You Who They Are
In this episode of We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez, Kris discusses flying monkeys (people who side with the abuser) and how to handle them.

Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  01:00

Okay, let us dive into the topic. So, today’s topic I titled when family and friends show you who they are, basically, what I’m talking about is flying monkeys. So, when we go through abuse, the initial abuse is from the abuser, you know, the the family, the you know, family of origin, or the romantic partner or the boss or whatever whoever the main abuser is, that’s the initial main abuse. I think what is devastating and shocking to people coming out of abusive relationships, is we leave the abusive relationship. And suddenly there’s this secondary abuse from all the flying monkeys that we’re like totally blindsided by it like we’re not, we’re not prepared for it. So let me break this down.

Flying Monkeys, what are flying monkeys? Well, the term Flying Monkeys comes from obviously, the Wizard of Oz. So, the Wicked Witch of the West. Yeah, Wicked Witch of the West, Wicked Witch of the East, which Wicked Witch of the West, um, makes the flying monkeys and they do her bidding. So that’s why people who do the bidding of the abuser are called Flying Monkeys, because, you know, the abuser says, jump, and then the flying monkeys go, how high and then they go do whatever the abuser wants them to do. So when we leave an abusive relationship, the smear campaign will start, okay, let’s just let’s just be real about that!

The smear campaign will start no matter how amicably you think you’ve left, or how kind you’ve tried to be or whatever, the abuser will make sure that everyone picks sides, because remember, in an abusers crazy mind, it’s a win lose situation, it is never a let’s split amicably, you know, let’s just, you know, be nice, let’s be kind, they don’t have any concept of nice or kind, they don’t. And to them, it’s a win lose situation, and they have to win, and you have to lose. And so what they will do is they will go on a smear campaign. So as soon as they smell that you’re done, you know, that you’re leaving, the smear campaign will have started months before, guarantee it. And that’s why when you’re thinking of leaving or whatever, you’re going to notice some friends (in bunny ears), you know, backing off or siding with the abuser or trying to encourage you to stay with the abuser or you know, one of those weird things. And we don’t recognize what’s going on. We don’t realize in the moment that that is what’s happening is that the flying monkeys are now choosing sides, basically.

So flying monkeys are people who side with the abuser. And what’s really dangerous is they report back to the abuser, and they love the drama. And so, this can be family members, this can be friends, this can be coworkers, this can be you know, anybody. So basically, anytime somebody sides with an abuser, y’all are dealing with a spy and monkey you really are. They’re, they’re just they’re doing the bidding of the abuser. And the abuser uses the flying monkeys to inflict pain, to report back to them to spy on the person who left to you know, fill in the blanks.

So, this is what I tell people when they’re shocked by the flying monkey thing. If the family is dysfunctional, if there are personality disorders going on, if there is any sort of, you know, funky Dunky mental health issues going on in the family, there are going to be flying monkeys and it shouldn’t shock you that if the parents are abusive and you leave that the siblings are probably not going to be healthy and they’re probably going to pick sides. And this devastates people so when family members side with the abuser, even though they know what’s going on, even when you’ve told them point blank, you know, hey mom, dad, Aunt Bertha, grandma, whatever, did X, Y and Z, they’ll pick sides. And they generally if they’re not together if they haven’t worked on themselves, if they haven’t worked on the inner child, they will side with the abuser.

Now, I’ve had several people ask me, how in the heck can this happen? A couple of ways, okay. One is they have not worked on their childhood issues; they have not decided that they are powerful without the abuser. Okay, so the inner child is the one that goes, Oh, my gosh, danger, my sibling, left the family and look what’s happening. And I need to side with the abuser. So, remember, like I said, when you’re dealing with a divorce case, and there’s little kids involved, the kids will automatically and naturally side with the abuser to try to stay safe, they know they’re safe with the other parent, but they’re terrified of that other person. They may not understand it logically, because remember, cognitively little kids can’t quite put all the pieces together. And so little kids will side with the abuser in an effort to stay safe. If there is no therapy going on. This is why I keep saying, if you’re gonna divorce one of these Jack wagons, you have got to get the kids in therapy absofreakinglutely and a therapist that understands parental alienation, and a therapist that understands inner child stuff and trauma.

So the adult kids are starting to act like little kids and siding with the abuser and then they become the flying monkeys. For the parents. Okay, in a romantic situation, kind of similar. You know, it’s like people who haven’t worked on their inner child start siding with the abuser or you’ve got people that just don’t understand You seriously have people that are just like non compos mentis just don’t get it don’t understand abuse, don’t acknowledge abuse. don’t realize how, what’s the word I’m looking for damaging and horrible and abuser can be and don’t understand the power games that they play. They don’t understand that the abuser is literally wooing the monkeys to come to their side so that they can win that’s in their minds. That’s what they think is going to happen. So, they just don’t get it they just they’re just clueless but here’s the thing if after you have explained to family members and friends, hey, this abuse was going on this is what was happening this is what’s you know, this is this is the reason why I’m leaving. If they then still side with the abuser, you’ve explained it to them, be done. Be done not your problem. It is devastating though guys I will tell you this, it’s like when you leave an abusive relationship and suddenly these people you thought were your friends or good family members or whatever and they start siding with the abuser it is devastating it is another betrayal. It’s another betrayal so this is like the secondary abuse or the secondary trauma.

Now the other kinds of flying monkeys are minor narcissists themselves Okay, so minor narcissists themselves seek to align themselves with the more powerful, seemingly, narcissist okay and they think that that’s where they’re gonna get their goodies from, okay, the narcissist has got something that they want, okay, because that’s how narcissists all work. So, these guys are minor narcissists, they’re abusers too, and generally the minor narcissists, enjoy the drama, love the drama, love the whole triangulation of communication. This is why I’m saying narcissists will gather flying monkeys to them, and use the flying monkeys to spy on the person who’s left. And you know, the person who’s left still thinks that these people are their friends and don’t, doesn’t realize that they’re flying monkeys, and everything that they’re saying is going right back to the abuser. So, if you have left one of these abusive Jack wagons, and you’re carrying on about your life, and you’ve got people that were, you know, friends with both or whatever. And if you say something, and suddenly your abuser is slamming you for it, in email or text or whatever, you can bet your sweet bippy it was one of the flying monkeys that took it back to them. So, this is why you’ve got to be very careful if somebody is still in line or what’s the word I’m looking for, supporting the abuser, they’re not your friend. Let’s be very clear, even if it’s family members, even if it’s family members, even if it’s friends, if they are supporting and and what’s the word I’m looking for, doing the bidding of the abuser, they’re not your friend, let them go.

So, what can you do? this is something that I get asked a lot. It’s like, okay, I’ve left the abusive situation. And now I realize, you know that information is getting back to the abuser. I think it’s coming from, you know, other family members, brothers, sisters, whatever, or it’s coming from people who are friends with both of us, what do I do? So, the best thing to do is you just be honest. It’s like, look, this person is abusive. I’ve told you they’re abusive, I do not want anything discussed here going back to them. And if I find out that they somehow know what we’ve talked about here, you and I are done. Period. Period. You know, it’s basically saying, you know, you need to figure out who’s, whose side you’re on it is, it is. But if they’re going to be running back to the abuser and telling them everything you’re doing, or making stuff up, which is another thing that flying monkeys do.

So remember I talked about, they love the drama, they love the drama, they need drama, the way the rest of us need air, seriously. So flying monkeys, really what they love to do is stir the pot, stir the pot, stir the pot, stir the pot, and then they sit back with the popcorn and go Hmm, how entertaining, this is wonderful. Oh, look at all look at all the drama, look at all the upset, look at all the tears, look at all the anger look at all. And they love that it makes them feel powerful. So, remember, they’re minor narcissists. So they enjoy the drama. So what they will often do is triangulation of communication well so and so said such and such about you. Right? So you’ve got this triangulation going. So they’re the operator. And they’re the ones that’s delivering messages back and forth between you and your ex, or you and a friend or you and whatever. And you don’t want that if somebody is delivering messages, the best way to stop that crap immediately. Great. Let’s get them on the phone right now and clear this up.

Kris Godinez  11:57

Seriously, like if they come to you and they say, Well, your ex said baba, baba, baba, bah, bah, bah, about you. Great. Let’s call him up. Let’s get it done. Let’s do it, you know, you can’t be afraid of confronting. And that is, the next problem is that when we come out of an abusive relationship, we’re terrified of confrontation. But the truth of the matter is confronting is a boundary and we don’t realize that we look at confronting as, Oh, my God, this is awful. This is terrible, that’s going to be a fight, it’s going to be horrible. Well, it may be if you’re dealing with an abuser, it may be if you’re dealing with a flying monkey, but this is a boundary issue. This needs to get handled.

So, when you’re dealing with a flying monkey, and they’re still in contact with the ex, or the abuser, or whoever that is, you’re gonna have to draw incredibly strong boundaries, and you’re gonna have to confront them. It’s like if they run back, and they tell them your business, and they’re the only ones that you’ve told you can then be sure that they’re the ones running back and doing that, then what you’re going to do is you’re gonna say, Okay, we’re done. Why? Because you ran back and told them everything. And no, I’m not giving you a second chance goodbye. And you let them go. And that’s hard for us to do. It is, it’s hard for us to do, because we’ve already gone through so much loss, we’ve already gone through so much betrayal, and we’ve got the codependency going on, we have a tendency to overshare we do. And we have a tendency to give too many chances. And you can’t do that when you’re leaving one of these people you cannot have you cannot afford especially if you’re in a court battle, to have a flying monkey running back and telling them or making stuff up. Even worse, that’s also been the case is where, you know, they want the drama. So they’ll run back to the abuser and tell them bold face lies, and then stir up the pot and then sit back and enjoy the show basically. So the best thing to do is to not be afraid to cut them off.

Seriously, they are not your friend, let me say this again, clearly, if they are doing the bidding of the abuser, they are not and they never have been your friend ever, ever. Okay, like if they’re running back and telling the abuser, everything you’re doing. No, that’s not being your friend. That’s, you know, if they’re, you know, sharing stuff that they shouldn’t, that’s not being your friend, if they’re making stuff up and causing more problems for you and the kids. That’s not being your friend, let them go cut them off, block them block, them, you know, and they may have a fit, they you know, especially if the abuser is like, well, you know, what are they saying and how come you’re not talking to them and blah, blah, blah, you know, but you know, you’ve shown me who you are. You’re looking at behaviors, you’re looking at a pattern of behaviors. So it’s really hard to see when we’re in the middle of an abusive relationship, but if you start looking at how these people have behaved throughout the entire time you’ve known them, there will be red flags that you will see, you know, that they didn’t honor your boundaries that they didn’t honor. No. And I mean it, that they didn’t keep things a secret that they didn’t, you know, do things that they that a normal friend would. Does that make sense that there was no give and take that you always had to do things on their terms? You know, that’s the sign of another minor narcissist.

So we feel incredibly betrayed when this happens. And well, we should, because these were people that were, you know, mutual friends, (bunny ears) supposedly, that, you know, were friends of the couple, and now they’re choosing sides or now they’re being Flying Monkeys for the abuser. And it’s really clear that they’re not our friends. And sometimes when it’s family, that’s super painful to because, you know, family, we’re always told, Oh, my gosh, you know, you got to gotta be able to depend on your family. Well, that’s great if the family is healthy and normal, if they’re disordered in any way, shape, or form. No, you cannot depend upon them, because they’re cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. You know what I’m saying? So it’s a betrayal. And so you’re going to be dealing with the inner child a lot, a lot. And you’re going to be dealing with that sense of, how do I explain this? It’s the ripping away of trust. And that’s what abusers do. And that’s another reason why abusers love to get the flying monkeys because they want their target of abuse, to feel like there’s no safety. They do. They want the target of abuse to feel like they’re alone. And there’s no protection and there’s no safety and they can’t trust anybody. So abusers are what’s the word I’m looking for diabolical? I think is a good way to put it. Yes.

Kris Godinez  16:54

They want you to feel like you cannot trust anybody. So this is a really, who hard time in the target of abuse is life because you’ve left the abuse. And now, okay, you’re not dealing with the abuser directly. But now you’re dealing with all the drama that the flying monkeys are bringing into your life and you’re realizing, holy crap, I cannot trust these people. Holy crap, these people do not have my best interest at heart, oh my gosh, my own brother, my own sister, my own mother, my own father, my own, you know, whatever, I cannot trust. And that is devastating to the inner child. Think about it. When you’re little, you’re itty bitty, right? You want and you need, unfortunately, to trust the adults around you to take care of you because you are literally helpless. Because you’re you know, itty bitty. And so it really brings us back to that moment in our childhood when we go, oh, gosh, I’m on my own. Nobody has got my back. What the actual. So it’s really, really important guys get with a good trauma therapist, I am not kidding you. Because you’re going to be dealing with not only the betrayal of the relationship, whether that’s mom, dad, grandparents, aunt, Bertha, whatever, or the romantic partner or the boss or the co worker, but you’re also going to be dealing with the betrayal from the flying monkeys that you thought were people you could count on.

And it’s how do I explain this? It’s like, when you realize that not everybody is a friend, or that not everybody has got your best interest at heart. It is like a punch to the gut. Like really, it’ll it’ll knock your breath out it really well. It’s like and this is another reason there’s another reason why I recommend this book when you’re divorcing because yeah, they will absolutely demand loyalty from the family and friends and they’ll they’ll threaten them they’ll not like you know, hey, don’t take stuff back or we’re done. They’ll threaten them in some way shape or form. I’ll share the secret all you know all embarrassed you I’ll do whatever you know because that’s how they do it. They’re like you know intimidation, things are there things so um, and like I said, the minor minor narcissists flock to them. And so people you thought that you had a good relationship with? You don’t? You don’t and it’s it’s heartbreaking and it’s devastating. And that’s when we start losing trust in damn near everything, like seriously, damn near everything. It’s like you will be having an existential crisis at that point. Seriously, like, I can’t tell you the number of times that I’ve had clients that have gone through severe abuse and realized this person wasn’t my friend, this person wasn’t my friend, this family member didn’t have my back. This family member didn’t have my back, the universe doesn’t have my back, you know, and they lose faith, I guess, or they lose safety or they lose. It’s like having an existential crisis. Well, who can I trust? So the good news, bad news is the only person you can trust initially coming out of an abusive relationship is yourself. And we don’t. So that’s why it’s really important to start working on self-esteem, start working on boundaries, and get with a good trauma therapist that’s recommended that has good reviews that knows what they’re doing that can help you start learning how to trust your gut. And out of that, learning how to, okay, can I trust this person? Or do I not trust this person? And really, learning how to trust has to do with listening to our gut, because what happens when we’re in an abusive relationship is that the abuser would no matter who that is, whether it’s a boss, romantic partner, a family member, whatever, whoever the abuser is, basically tells us Oh, no, you don’t see that. No you don’t see the pink elephant taking a crap in the corner of the living room, you don’t see that you don’t know that’s not happening. You can’t trust yourself; you can’t know that’s not real. So, we learned very quickly not to trust our gut. Because if we point out the pink elephant taking a crap in the corner of the living room, what is the abuser? Do they punish us? Especially in the family of origin, it’s like if the abuser was a family of origin member, mom, dad, grandparents, whatever, we get punished for seeing the dysfunction. So we very quickly learned to put on the blinders.

Kris Godinez  21:38

And then of course, that leads us to going and getting into a romantic relationship with an abuser. And then when we finally go, No, this is not what I want. And the blinders come off, it is incredibly painful. It is it is because we’re seeing things that we should have been seeing the whole time. But we didn’t see the whole time because we kept getting told no, you don’t see it. No, you don’t see it. No, you don’t see it. And we convinced ourselves, we didn’t see it. So now when we start seeing it, it’s painful. And it’s a betrayal.

So one of the ways to deal with that is you write things out right things out, is this person doing the bidding of the ex, if they’re doing the bidding of the acts, or they’re doing the bidding of the abusive parent, or the abusive coworker or the abusive boss, they are not your friend, they’re not your friend, write it out pro con pro con, you know what I’m saying? What are the pros are having this person in my life? What are the cons of having this person in my life? Is this healthy or not, and you start writing it out, because sometimes will not sometimes all the time, when you can write stuff out and see it in black and white, it makes it real number one. And number two, it helps you put things into perspective. So if you’re doing a pro and con list, and the cons of having this person will weigh the pros of having this person in your life, then you got to go with that, you know, trust that that’s like your instinct, basically. So when you do a pro and a con list with the friends, the (bunny ears) friends, you do a pro on one piece of paper one day, don’t count it, don’t number it, don’t do any of that crap, you just, you know, write down all the pros of having this person in your life, you set it aside, then a couple of days later, you grab another piece of paper, you do the con list. And then when you’re done reading those two out, you compare and see which one’s longer. And that generally will give you a good guidance of whether this person needs to be in your life or not. Now what I see people do is skew that by doing it on the same piece of paper and they already know the answer. It’s like here’s the thing, guys, we already generally know the answer. We just don’t like it. So, our guts know the answer our instincts know the answer. And that’s why doing a pro and a con list on two pieces of paper when you not numbering it and you’re just writing things down and seven aside not counting it, you know, none of that and then come back and do it on the negative one the con one on a different day, and then compare them, the answer is going to become pretty darn clear.

If you do it on the same piece of paper, you’re going to skew it because you already know the answer and you don’t like it. And that’s the little kid. Think about it. That’s like the inner child. That’s what the little kid does is skew the results. If they don’t like the results, I’m going to skew them because I don’t like it. So that’s one way to do it. The other thing to do is you realize this is going to be a grieving process. I know like we didn’t have enough grief in our life to begin with. So, we’re having to let go of the abuser. All of the illusions, grieving the loss of the illusion grieving the loss of the relationship we thought we had now. We’re having to grieve the loss of the relationships that we thought were friendships, and we’re having to let those go. So that’s when writing and burning if you can, is really helpful.

Now I’ve had several people tell me you know, mom, dad, whoever read my journals I don’t feel safe writing, okay, if writing is too terrifying, do it in the car. In other words, talk it out, get someplace where you can just scream it out, talk it out, whatever, you know, and just, you know, this person did this, this person did that, you know, dada, dada, dada, goodbye, get out of my head, I’m not interested in having you in my life anymore. I’m sick and tired of you running back to my ex. So, this is like the goodbye letter to the the flying monkeys that were you thought were friends, could be goodbye letter to the flying monkeys that were family members. You know, I’m sorry, but a real sister or real brother doesn’t betray the other sibling when they get out of a dysfunctional relationship. Thank you, bye, bye, you know, and then let it go wish them well send them on their way, they don’t get to live up here rent free one more moment, you know, that kind of thing. So however, you can do the goodbye letter, whether it’s going out in your car and screaming it out. Or whether it’s screaming in the shower, or, you know, getting on a punching bag and punching it out. Whatever you need to do, do that if writing is too scary, because for some people writing is too scary if your journals got read, because then the journals were used against you as a kid, which just and they do that on purpose, guys. The abusers do that on purpose. Because intrinsically they know, the journaling helps, they know that writing things out helps. And that’s why they ruin it for us, because they’re doing it on purpose. And they’re nosy buggers, you know what I’m saying? And they want information to use against you later. So, like if you’re writing in your journal, and you said, Oh my God, when mom does this, or dad does that, and then later they go, well, then nananana and then punish you for having private journal. And then of course, you grow up as an adult, and you’re like, Nope, I don’t want to write in a journal, which totally I understand. So if writing is too much, talk it out, go into the shower, go into the car, do whatever you need to do talk it out.

So that’s kind of like the Gestalt, empty chair thing. So in Gestalt, you basically have an empty chair in front of you, and you talk to the chair as if it were the person that you’re having the problem with.

Kris Godinez  27:04

It works, I’ve done it, it works. So, you can do that. So, you just imagine them sitting there in the seat next to you, if you’re in your car, and you just let them have it. Let them have it as if you were having a conversation with them. Except it’s one sided, and you get to tell them exactly what to do with it. So do you see where I’m going with that. So, it’s the empty chair thing. And this is why having a therapist is really helpful because if you’re doing the empty chair thing, sometimes we get stuck. And the therapist, if they’re listening really closely, we’ll be able to go go back to this, tell them you know, tell them really what this is going on. And you know, that kind of thing. It’s really, I like Gestalt. I love it! I love all the modalities I just think they’re infinitely fascinating. Anyway, the point being is do something, don’t let it just sit up here. Like, I don’t know if you guys ever had oysters, I hate oysters. They’re really gross. But it’s like, if you’re a little kid and you try to eat oysters, you try to chew them. No, you should just swallow them, right? But if you’re a little kid, you chew it. What happens to an oyster, if you chew it, it just gets bigger and slimy ane nastier. And that’s what goes on in our heads. If we don’t get this stuff out, if we don’t process it if we don’t deal with it, if we don’t help the inner child processes and understand it’s not their fault. Do you see where I’m going with that?

So okay, to recap really quickly, because I know we’ve got a bunch of questions. Flying Monkeys are one of two things either it’s somebody who just doesn’t get it, who has maybe inner child issues that they have not worked on. And they are subconsciously going with the abuser because that’s what little kids do. And they just don’t get how bad the abuse is. Or they are minor narcissists themselves. Does that make sense? So, and they’re attracted to the power, and they love the drama, and they’re stirring the pot, because they want you to be the greatest show in town. And so that’s what they do. So anyway, so the best thing to do with flying monkeys is, like I said, You tell them, I don’t want my business getting back to the abuser. And if your business gets back to the abuser, you just cut them off. You don’t even tell him anything. We don’t owe anybody an explanation and we don’t owe anybody an apology when we do what’s best for us. We really don’t. So, and that is actually something I will be talking about in a few weeks and stop apologizing.

But um, so yeah, so with the flying monkeys, it’s a grieving process as well. Maybe not as well. In some cases, it can be as as difficult as grieving for the abuser, because we’re grieving for the loss of what we thought was support and you have a right to be angry. You have a right to be sad you have a right to feel betrayed and you want to work with that inner child on that because the inner child is the one that’s going but but but you were supposed to be my friend but but but you were supposed to have my back. So that’s what you need to work on is the anger, the sadness, the betrayal. Write it out, get it out of your head, get it onto paper, or if you need to do the gestalt thing, talk it out, you know, and work through it that way, because you are, you’re grieving the secondary illusion, the secondary abuse, I know this, it sucks. It just, it sucks. It sucks, and you didn’t deserve it. So, but this is what we have to go through. What you know, in order to have healthier life is to get rid of all of these flying monkeys that are minor narcissists that are running back to the abuser that are causing drama, blah, blah, blah, because you’re making room for basically healthy people. So that’s what we’re doing. We’re cleaning out the closet, we’re getting rid of clothes that don’t fit, that have holes in them, that aren’t stylish, that whatever, you’re just getting rid of the people that no longer support you, basically. And if they’re supporting the abuser, they’re not supporting you. So there that is.

Okay, let’s dive into the questions. Okay. Um, okay, can a flying monkey turn on the abuser and in turn, use others as their flying monkeys as well? Yeah, let’s be clear. So, it depends on how disordered they are. But generally, I have found that major narcissists tend to be attracted to each other initially, initially, and then there’s the power struggle, and then they turn on each other. Yeah, they’re just there. It’s just they’re just yeah, no honor among thieves, basically. So yes, they can absolutely turn on the other narcissist. So it’s kind of like, how do I explain this? It’s kind of like in some, in some instances, when the abuser leaves, they immediately go get with either somebody who has borderline personality disorder because they eat that person for breakfast, which is horrible. Or they get with another narcissist, and if it’s a minor narcissist, it might last for a little bit longer. But if it’s another major narcissist, which does happen, it does. Eventually one of them will turn on the other one, and then it will be a complete cluster cluck thing. Yeah, I know. I’m smiling. Because it’s like, oh, karma?  What a biotch, you know what I’m saying? So yeah, it absolutely that can happen.

Um, I received a message from one of my cousins last week, they are both aware that I have gone no contact with my parents. And they send that oops, they over send me a few messages winding me up about my parents are why are they doing that? Okay. So

Kris Godinez  32:49

in our society, we’ve got this weird Judeo Christian thing about honor thy mother and father, right? But what everybody seems to ignores the very next line is parents. Don’t bring your children to anger. Not a good idea. You know, so it’s like, if you go no contact with a parent, I’ve talked about this in other videos, but if you go, no contact with a parent, you get that they’re guilting. You so let’s be clear. Anybody who uses fear, obligation, because that’s obligation or guilt is a toxic relationship. So any relationship that is bringing up fear, obligation or guilt, which is the fog, okay, the abuse fog. So why are they doing that? Well, clearly, they like the drama, you know, because if, okay, if somebody came to a healthy person and said, Hey, I’ve gone no contact with my family. Here’s what happens. And this is why I don’t want anything from them. The person would be like, Okay, I understand. That’s your prerogative, not my problem. But with somebody who is dedicated to chaos, and dedicated to drama, they’re going to be bringing stuff up, bringing stuff up, bringing stuff up, you know what I’m saying? So, so, yeah, they’re gonna be bringing stuff up, bringing stuff up, bringing stuff up, bringing stuff up, in an effort to stir the pot because they want you upset. They get off on that. So people who are drama queens, drama kings, enjoy watching you suffer. They enjoy watching you get upset, so because narcissists are not able to process emotions, the way that healthy people process emotions, they get off on if they can make a negative emotion in you. Does that make sense? So yeah, it’s just more drama. So basically, hold on, let me go read that question again. Okay, they both aware that I’ve gone no contact and they over send me a few messages winding me up about my parents. Yeah, because they’re looking for your reaction. So what you’re going to do is you’re going to gray rock them You’re going to, you’re not going to respond. So let’s say that they send you more stuff about your parents. You’re just not going to respond. You know, or you can be really pointed and say hey, how about them Dodgers? Meaning you’re not going to play… you are under no obligation. Let us be clear about this. You are under no obligation to engage in a conversation about an abuser with anybody, unless you want to. And in this case, if it’s family members riling you up, you just don’t respond you gray rock you know like let’s say they will What about this that the other thing Ba ba ba ba ba? Hey, how about them Dodgers? And that’s your response every single time. Hey, how about them Dodgers? Hey, how about them Dodgers? What do you mean Hey, how ‘bout them Dodgers bababababa, this conversation is over bye and you stop. You may lose that relationship. And honestly, if they’re dedicated to riling you up and getting you upset, then you’re not missing anything. I know. It’s weird. I know. I know. It sucks. It does. So yeah, be careful about that and do gray rock if they keep doing it.

How do you win against a narcissist and monkeys? You don’t play. That’s the best way to win guys, is to not play. So, what narcissists and monkeys live for is the drama they live for stirring the pot roiling the pot. You know overflowing the pot. And they live for you being upset. They want you upset. They want you angry. They want you sad. They want you confused. They want you… you know running around. They want you talking about them all the time. The best revenge… Listen to me now. Believe me later. The best revenge is to let them go, don’t play. Don’t even engage. Don’t play. Once you figure out that they’re flying monkeys, you block them on all social media. You block them on email, you block them on text. You have nothing more to do with them. You give them nothing. You do not feed the bear. Okay. You don’t give them anything if you run into them gray rock. How about them Dodgers? Yeah, interesting. How about them Dodgers?

Kris Godinez  37:13

Will it piss them off? You bet. Who cares? You know what I’m saying? So you basically you gray rock, you don’t play, you step out of the circle. So, it’s a Drama Triangle. It’s a Drama Triangle. So there’s the villain, the victim and the hero. And in the narcissists mind, they’re always the hero or the villain or the victim sorry, not the villain. They’re the either the hero or the victim that depending on where they’re getting their narcissistic supply from, either from the sympathy from being the victim, or from I’m the hero in this, you know, scenario. So, what you do is villain, victim, hero, you’re always going to be the villain, you cannot win with these people. Ever. This is the thing that’s crazy. I mean, this is like truly holy cow, Alice Through the Looking Glass. cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. You know what I’m saying? Even when you catch them red handed with the evidence that they have done something wrong, like cheated on you, stolen or whatever, they will flip the script, and somehow you made them. So, you can’t win with these Jack wagons. You can’t they are dedicated to misunderstanding you. And they’re dedicated to being either the victim or the hero in the story. They can’t be the villain ever. Because they do not take personal responsibility for a gosh darn thing. They don’t, they just don’t. And they won’t. They will not take responsibility for a damn thing. So you can’t win with them. The best way to win is to not play seriously. And I know a lot of people get this. What’s the word? I’m looking for this need for revenge? Which I totally get. I mean, it would be in a perfect world. You know, the the narcissist would get hit by a bus but that’s not the world we live in. You know, sometimes the bus takes a couple of lifetimes before it hits them. So, depending on your religious beliefs, but you know, or philosophical beliefs, um, but anyway, the point being sorry, went off on a tangent. The point being is, is that you cannot win with them. They won’t allow it and there’s nothing you can do. And honestly, the more contact you have with them, the more narcissistic supply you’re giving them. They honestly don’t care love them or hate them. Just don’t ignore them. They have said that. love them or hate them. Just don’t ignore them. And that’s their hue and cry that seriously love me or hate me. Just don’t ignore me. I’ve heard them say that. So, what you want to do is you want to cut them off at their knees meaning you like a revenge. You let go of it. It’s a fool’s game. It is I know people argue with me on this all the time. But no, it’s a fool’s game. Because all you’re doing with revenge is handing them more narcissistic supply. Well goody goody goody a game revenge. Ooh, let’s see how I can mess them up now. Yeah, that’s what they live for that. If you give them literally crickets, they got nothing. They got nothing. And they might ramp it up for a little bit. You know, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke poke looking for the reactive abuse, looking for the reactive abuse? And then if none happens, they get bored. And they’ll go find supply somewhere else. So, does that make sense?  So yeah, so there is there is that you step out, you don’t play you step out of the Drama Triangle, stop being the villain. Step out of the Drama Triangle, go live your life, cut them off. gray rock block, just low to no contact or no contact if you can, and don’t give them any supply. Otherwise, you’re giving them supply. You’re giving them supply, negative or positive, they don’t care. As long as they get something if you give them nothing. They got nothing. They get bored. They go away, which is what we want. Aside from getting hit from a bus but you know, it’s a thing.

Kris Godinez  41:02

Okay, um, can you explain the difference between defending yourself and talking about yourself? Okay, here’s the deal. You don’t need to defend yourself. I know weird concept because we’re so used to think about it. In our families of origin especially, and sometimes with a romantic partner to well, not sometimes all the time with a romantic partner if they’re abusive. We get into this really incredibly, what’s the word? I’m looking for self-harming habit. There we go. self-harming habit of defending ourselves. Well, but but but but I did this because because we’re trying to make them stop abusing. Right? So, what the narcissist wants and who was I describing this to, I was describing it Oh, it was the it was in Salt Lake, I was describing this in Salt Lake. When we start defending ourselves, it’s the equivalent of a boxer getting on the ropes. You don’t want to be on the ropes. So, if you’re in boxing, you don’t because you got nowhere to go. So, if they get you on the ropes with defending they Gotcha. Because no matter what you say, You’re wrong. Please see the previous conversation that we just had about you cannot win with a narcissist, you can’t it’s not possible. They won’t allow it. Like a normal person is not interested or winning and losing they’re interested in understanding. It’s like where are you coming from? Where am I coming from? You get where I’m coming from, I get where you’re coming from? Okay, good. Let’s find a mutually agreeable solution. Narcissists could care less about a mutually agreeable solution. They want mutually assured destruction. Let me say that again. narcissists could care less about a mutually agreeable solution. They want mutually assured destruction. Because that’s their ego. Where was I’m I was talking about let me look at the question again. Oh, defending yourself. So, you don’t owe anybody an explanation. Let’s be clear, you do not owe anybody an explanation. So, when we start over explaining when we start defending ourselves, well, but but but how old are you? How old are you? How old is that little kid trying to make mom dad, grandparents, teachers, whoever was abusive. Understand. How old are you get the inner child workbook either by Katherine Taylor or the one by Luccia Cappchiano, and I think it’s how she pronounces it. So, it’s it’s a, it’s like a coloring book or a workbook. But it’s like you do the child with your non dominant hand and you do the adult with your dominant hand. Lots of my clients have really liked it. So, but get any of the inner child workbooks, literally any of the inner child workbooks and start working on that inner child. Okay, because that’s the one that’s trying to explain. You also want to start working on your boundaries. So, any good boundary books so the disease to please I love it, the disease to please by Harriet breaker, read it, work it, put those boundaries in place, you don’t owe anybody an explanation. It’s like, for example, if if an abuser comes up to me, and goes, you know, well, why did you blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank, I will just look at them and be like, I don’t owe you an explanation. And I’ll walk off. That’s also because I’ve been working on my self-esteem. And that’s also because I know I don’t owe anybody an explanation. You know what I’m saying? And you don’t you don’t the only people you own an explanation to is somebody who’s willing to hear you. These people, these abusers Okay, are dedicated to misunderstanding you. You could be the most eloquent, amazing person and really good at, you know, putting across your point and they will find a way to flip the script and you’re wrong. Do you see where I’m going with that? You cannot win with these people. You do not owe them an explanation. You don’t. Now if you’re talking to somebody who is asking, you know will how did the relationship end? Why did you the end of the relationship? Facts. they were abusive, I chose not to put up with it, we ended it. I ended up, you know, whatever. Um, that’s not, that’s not defending yourself. Now if they come back and go, Well, that was stupid and dadadadada and you feel this need to defend yourself. That’s when you got to put the brakes on and be like, how old? Do I feel right now with this person? Is this person somebody I need to be talking to? Because you don’t need to defend yourself with friends. Let me say that again. You never need to defend yourself with true friends.

Kris Godinez  45:34

Because they have your back because they are dedicated to understanding you because they are dedicated to mutually agreeable solutions. Does that make sense? Put that in your pipe and smoke it. So there we go. All right, that should answer the question. You don’t owe an explanation to anybody. You don’t need to defend yourself. If you’re finding yourself having to defend yourself. How old are you? Inner Child workbook, any of them. I don’t care. Go get an inner child workbook. Start working at self-esteem workbook. Glen Schiraldi.  You are a badass by Jen Sincero. Those are all great. The disease to please by Harriet breaker, you don’t owe anybody an explanation. You don’t have to defend yourself with friends. And if somebody is putting you on the defensive, that’s when you gotta be like, how do I feel? Where’s this coming from? And what is this person’s objective? What do they want? Oh, they want to be right. Okay, well, they can be right and alone. Gotta go, look at the time bye and you’ll leave. When respect is no longer being served, get up from the table walk out. Absolutely. Okay. So where are we?

How do you stop feeling guilty for wanting to stop feeling guilty? My friends for three years and one of six that I was ruining their mood, and was toxic, and it was all my fault? Well, if it was all your fault, and they’re saying that and they’re not taking any responsibility for anything, then don’t be around them. Don’t be around them. Oh, thank you, Rob, thank you, um, don’t be around them. If somebody you know, comes up to you and says you’re toxic, you’re this or that? Okay, well take into consideration are they really your friends? Number one. Number two, if they’re being honest and helpful, then they would say something like, here’s this behavior I’m seeing it concerns me, you know, maybe seeing a therapist would help, you know, so if, you know, you got to kind of take into consideration how much of this is really you? And how much is projection on their part. And that’s kind of hard to tell. Seriously, if you’re with somebody who is abusive. It’s really hard to tell if you’re in the middle of it, you know, is this them? Or is this me? And so, this is again, where a really good trauma therapist would come in handy to help you tease out is this them? Or am I really toxic? Am I really having some behaviors that are not very helpful? You know, and so you don’t want to just take their word for it. You don’t want to just suddenly, you know, Mia culpa, Mia culpa, mea maxima culpa and whip yourself into a bloody mess, but you want to decide with a therapist, you know, it’s like, okay, they’ve said this, I’m concerned, I, you know, I want to make sure I’m not toxic. And is this is this them? You know, and then work through with your therapist, that would be the best way to do it, you know, and trust your gut. What is your gut telling you? You know, that’s always a good way to go with it. But sometimes, like I said, it’s hard for us to know what our gut is saying and what our head and our heart are saying. So really important. The gut will never lie to us. The gut is a simple yes or no answer to a yes or no question. The head and the heart will do stories. You will Yes, but this that the other thing and no, but this, that and the other thing, story, story, story, story and a lot of panic. So, these two guys lie. The gut never does. So, if you ask your gut a yes or no question, you get really quiet and you go with the first answer. That’s your gut instinct. So again, you start with something you already know. Okay, so trusting our gut, so for me, I don’t like peanut butter. I don’t know what it is. I don’t like that. I think It’s the texture. It’s because it’s not just peanut butter. It’s any any nut butter. I don’t like the texture. It’s gross. So, but if I asked my gut, okay, good. Do you like peanut butter? I can feel the response. It’s literally like, Oh, God, no, you know, but I do like Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups. So if I go okay, good. I know you don’t like peanut butter. Do you like Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups? Yeah, it’s just Yep. And there’s no story. There’s no story. But with the head and the heart. If you ask the head or the heart, there’d be like, Well, yeah, it’s the texture and this that and the other thing about Ba ba ba ba ba No, stop. Yes or no, you know, yes or no question. Answer the yes or no question. So, yeah, that’s what I would do. I would get with a therapist and see if it’s really you or if it’s them, or if it’s combination, and what are the behaviors and is this stuff you want to work on? So that’s what I would do. Okay. How long how are we doing on time?

Okay, how long should I expect to be in grieving? It’s been over a year and I Hate. I hate crying randomly for nothing littlest things can sometimes bring me to tears. Grief is weird. Let’s be clear here. So, in a in a healthy grieving situation, the most intense grieving is the first year. Think about it, because that first year we’re having to go through all of the firsts. Okay?

Kris Godinez  50:33

We’re going through the first what are we coming up on here now Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, October, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year’s anniversary of the breakup, you know, whatever, any anniversaries at all birthdays, etc. So, we’re going through all of the firsts. This goes for grieving the loss of the illusion of the narcissist. This also goes for grieving a death. So, we have to go through all the first and it sucks. It sucks. Really bad. It does. And it is bad enough when it’s a healthy relationship. Okay. We’re lucky Yes, not only do we get complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, we get complicated grief. All the things That’s fabulous. Yeah, no. So, we get complicated grief and the complicated grief comes from the fact that we have got an abuser that gaslights, lies to us, rewrites history, confuses us, fog, obligation, fear, obligation, guilt, you know, all these conflicting feelings. I love them, I hate them because Dear Lord, they’re doing this. But then in the beginning, they were this way and I don’t understand and, you know, all of the all of the conflicting emotions, it’s complicated grief. So, in a normal grieving situation, we grieve intensely that first year. And it’s a lot of random crying, and just how Oh, my gosh, what just happened? I just got hit by a Mack truck, you know, that whole thing. The second year, we move that person into a different space, in our heart, in our mind kind of thing. And we’re still grieving, but it’s not quite as intense in a healthy normal grieving situation, okay? With complicated grief. With complicated grief, it can last up to three years.

Kris Godinez  52:31

And the reason being is because we’re grieving the loss of this person that is still alive. Does that make sense? It’s the weirdest damn thing ever on the face of the planet to be grieving like hard core grieving. For two years solid, somebody who is not dead, they’re still alive. They’re still walking around. They’re living with their new supply, they’re doing whatever, but we are grieving their loss still. And we’re grieving that loss because it’s super hard for our brains to wrap itself around that the person they were in the beginning of the relationship love bomb, love bomb, love bomb, love bomb, love bomb, love bomb, one bomb was not real. The real them was when the masks slipped. And they were devaluing, discarding, disrespecting, lying, gaslighting, stealing, cheating, you name it, that’s the real them. And couple that if they’re throwing Hoover’s in there, it is so not fair. And it is very difficult. Not impossible. But it is very difficult because it’s, it’s like I explained this. For the first little bit of grieving your brain keeps going back to the love bombing, like, but but but I just want them back. I want the real them back. Well, that wasn’t the real them. That’s the sucky part of this whole thing. There is no there. It’s all ego. there’s no, there’s no there, there. So, we grieve the loss of that illusion. And it will hit us from out of the blue we’ll hear a song we’ll smell something, and we’ll go to a restaurant, we’ll you know, here’s something we’ll watch TV show. And we’ll be flooded with the memories of that relationship when it was good, okay, because that’s what our brains tend to do. So, this is why writing down every rotten thing they ever did to you is really important, so that you don’t get hooked by the inevitable Hoover, which there usually is not always but there usually is. So, they’ll try to suck you back in. And if you’re in one of those time periods where you’re like walking down the primrose path to hell, remembering all the good stuff, that’s when you’re more likely to fall for the Hoover don’t fall for the Hoover! When they Hoover and they get you back into their clutches the abuse becomes worse. The love bombing phase gets shorter, and the abuse phase gets nastier. They they push the envelope seeing what they can do now, so that’s dangerous. So yeah, we get complicated. grief and I know you’re tired of crying I know you are and it’s okay. Crying is cathartic it really is think of it as your friend you’re clearing out the system you are you’re you’re letting stuff go it’s okay write it out… dear so and so the good here’s the here’s where you love bombing the bad here’s where you started the devalue in the discard the ugly, the horrific, the unforgivable. And at the very, very end, you take your power back, guess what, Mother clucker, I’m not going to do this forever. I will allow myself to grieve when it hits. But eventually you will be just a memory. Goodbye. Bye now, buh bye, go pound sand, trot it out to the barbecue, read it out loud once burn it, let it go. And just realize that every single survivor of abuse is going through exactly what you’re going through. We do… we grieve. You know, I I grieved my dad when he died, I really did it probably not as hard as my middle sister did, because she still had some unresolved issues with him. But you know, you do you do the whole if only What if if only you know, if they’d only been different if they could have gotten help if they would have been introspective if they you know, all of this stuff, you know, and so you grieve. You grieve. I mean, not always not everybody grieves abusers, the same, you know, some people just are like, Oh, screw it, I’m done. We’re no grief, you know. But those of us who do grieve, we all do the exact same thing. And it does take about two to three years, it does. Because like I said, we’re having to work through all of those contradictions, all of that I love you, I hate you stuff, all of that. Love bombing stuff. All of the hoovering all of the fill in the blank, you know? So, love yourself, be gentle with yourself, drink a ton of water journal, get it out of your head, get it onto paper, if you can, if not get a punching bag and punch it out, you know? And, yeah, so hope that answers the question. Do we have time? Oh, my gosh, we’re at one o’clock. Ah, really quickly. This is the last one.

Kris Godinez  57:04

How do I build emotional resilience? Sometimes it doesn’t take much knock me down. And I’m not sure how to remedy that. Self-esteem, self-esteem and boundaries, self-esteem and boundaries. I think one of the things that we get hit with, especially if we come from a family of origin, where there was abuse, is that we think everything is our fault or that everything is personal, right? So, we take everything personally because our abusers love to go you, you, you guns, you, you, you, you, you guns you did this, you did that I can’t retire because of you bla bla bla bla bla. So we start taking things very personally. And so, when things go wrong, we have a tendency to take it personally. And it knocks us down if somebody criticizes because harsh criticism. Oh my gosh, that’s all we got. Growing up. It was harsh criticism. So, you’ve got to understand not everything is personal. And not all criticism is real. Something that I might want to talk about in a future date, so I’ll put that down. All right, guys. You guys have a wonderful wonderful week. Drink plenty of water. Please take really good care of yourselves. Be gentle with you. This is hard work guys. Get all of the books I recommend they’re over on Facebook. I had it pinned to the top all of the books that I recommend. Um, and that’s it. Talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

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