We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

05-22-2022 An Eye For An Eye Not A Good Idea
In this episode of We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez, Kris talks about the futility of revengw and how it won’t get you what you think you want.


Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

All right, so today, we’re going to be talking about an eye for an eye. Not a good idea. Why? Okay, well, alright, so hmm, where to start. So, people have a natural sense of wanting justice, we just we want things to be fair, we do. The problem of it is, is that when you’re dealing with an abuser, when you’re dealing with a malignant narcissist, a malignant, borderline, antisocial, you know, somebody like that, they do not have the same emotions that we do. They do not feel they don’t, they don’t feel the same way we do. You know, there’s no moral compass for them, especially if they’re antisocial, or if they’re dark triad. Or if they’ve slid down the spectrum. And they’re like, all of the, all of the personality disorders are now overlapping. So, they don’t feel the same way we do. Narcissists and abusers in general, tend to emotionally be on the level of maybe a two-year-old on a good day, if the wind is blowing in the right direction on a Tuesday. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, they’re not emotionally intelligent. I think that’s the best way to put it. So, the abusers tend to be very childish. And they are very prone to narcissistic injury. So, ego injury, in other words, and basically abusers look for anything that even smells like somebody is coming after them, getting them, insulting them, criticizing them, etc, etc, etc. And they are on the lookout for that all the time. So if you inflict narcissistic injury onto a narcissist, even though it may feel good in the moment, this makes them very dangerous. Because if you think you’ve got a need for revenge, you have no idea the depth of depravity that these mother Cluckers will go to, to get theirs. So you’re not dealing with somebody who is going to suddenly have an epiphany and be like, Oh, my, my God, I’ve been a jackwagon. How could I have treated you that way? I’m so sorry. You’re right, I totally deserve whatever it is you did to me. That’s not going to happen, guys, that is not going to happen. And I cannot emphasize that enough.

So when I encourage people to write and burn letters, sometimes not very often, because I make it extremely clear when I’m dealing with my clients, that sometimes the client will be like, well, I sent it to them. And I’ll be like, Oh, my God, why? Why? Why? Why did you send it to them? Well, I just wanted them, but but I just wanted them to know what they did. At that point, I go, okay. And what happened? And usually the response is, the abuser came back, you know, fangs bared, claws out, you know, smear campaign, you know, using it as evidence that they’re crazy, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And I was just like, okay, that’s the reason why I told you not to send it. That’s the reason why I said, burn it. It’s not for them. They’re not gonna get it. Listen to me now, believe me later. Seriously, guys, listen to me now, believe me later. They are never going to get it! Not on this planet, not on any other planet. Seriously, they’re not going to get it. They do not have the empathy cog that the rest of us have, that you know, that sense of right and wrong that you find out when I’ve hurt somebody, you know, when you’ve hurt somebody, they don’t care seriously. They literally do not care. There is no moral compass there is no sense of decorum. There is no sense of Uh oh, what’s the word I’m looking for here? No

Kris Godinez  05:03

You know, there’s no sense of right and wrong. There’s no emotional intelligence. There’s no there there. There is no there, there. There is no, there, there. And when somebody sends that letter and I asked them, Okay, how old are you? How old? Are you when you’re telling me you sent that letter? How old were you? In that moment? When you pressed send? How old were you? I was 27? No, you weren’t take a deep breath. Emotionally? How old? Are you? When you are wanting revenge? How old are you? And then usually, they break down into tears. And it’s like, Oh, crap, I’m two. I’m four. I’m six. I’m young. I’m little itty bitty, itty bitty. And so that is where the sense of revenge comes through. Now, in doing the research, the need for revenge is particularly strong in those of us who have been harmed that’s… where do I get paid to do the Captain Obvious studies seriously. So you know, it does people with PTSD, people with CPTSD, if they have not worked on the original wound, will have this incredible need for revenge. However, all of the literature points to the fact that yes, even though we say we want it, it does not alleviate the sense of betrayal, the anger, the whatever. And here’s what it does do, it hands, your abuser every piece of ammunition they need for the next 40 years. I’m not kidding you. So every single time you try to get revenge on your abuser, what they will do is they will just use that as more evidence that you’re crazy. And they’re the victim. Oh, poor them. You’re just so mean to them. Why are you so mean to them, and then they will attack and do the social smearing campaign on social media, they will stalk they will whatever. You got to understand you’re not dealing with somebody who’s normal here, obviously, because healthy normal people do not seek to hurt other people. Number one, number two, if somebody has made it clear, they want nothing to do with you healthy, normal people go Okay, we’re done. Have a nice life. Buh bye. And they walk away, right? Abusers don’t do that.

So obsessive exes. Those are the ones that stalk. Dark triads, they’re cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, technical term. So they will take whatever narcissistic injury you give them. So let me run through. There was one article that I really, really enjoyed. Okay, the worst thing you can do to a narcissist and this is on fairy tale shadows. And basically she was saying, Look, I know you want to hurt the narcissist I know you want to get back at them and here’s the reason why you don’t want to be doing that. So okay, so All right, let’s see if I can get to.

Okay, so expose their misdeeds.

Kris Godinez  08:16

You know, this seems like the first and most obvious way to hurt them is to expose their misdeeds however this is why you don’t want to do that let me grab my glasses hang on all right, um, you may make the narcissist angry and put yourself in danger no one is likely to believe you and even if they do the narcissist will soon smooth everything over remember they have a posse of flying monkeys and the flying monkeys are gonna sign with them no matter what evidence you bring, that’s the thing and that is what is so frustrating to survivors of abuse is that we’re sitting here going this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this and the flying monkeys are like what abuse? I don’t see any abuse Do you? Do you see any abuse? I don’t see anything. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, they will smooth it over and they will make you look like the crazy one and that will justify them treating you poorly and to continue… the narcissist would rather have a messed up, contentious, nasty connection to you than no connection at all. Why? Because they need narcissistic supply like the rest of us need air. Now this may sound crazy to you. But narcissists thrive on negativity. I don’t know if you’ve noticed this or not, but they are… they love it. They love negativity what they can’t stand is the happiness the positiveness and joy and things like that. So, if you’re throwing anger at them if you’re throwing accusations at them and gee? What does this sound like? That’s currently going on in the court systems Y’all know what I’m talking about? So um, you know, if you’re throwing anger and nastiness Hold on, drop the glasses. Oh, and all of that at them. That is their delicious supply. And they’re sitting there going, Hmm, delicious. Keep throwing it. Yeah. And I’m gonna use this back at you, huh? Yeah. So this is what they do. So again what what narcissists will do is love me or hate me, just don’t ignore me. Now there’s your clue of what you need to be doing. Ignore them. Yes. And we’ll get to why in just a minute. So they eat up the negative stuff, they don’t ever take responsibility, you have got to get this through your head. They are not normal. They are dealing the level of about maybe a two year old emotionally, if that on a good day, and the winds were in the right direction. And it’s a Tuesday, do you see where I’m going with that? They’re not normal. They don’t have the empathy cog. They will never have that V-8 moment where they go, Oh, my God, I’ve been a jackwagon. Holy cow, I hurt you. I’m sorry. That’s never going to happen. Guys. They do not take responsibility. What they will do is gather everything you’ve said, twist it, and then make it all about you. And this is their deliciousness. You know what they’re thinking as soon as you write that letter, and you send it to them, they’re like, Oh, I’m under their skin. Great. I can control them still. Oh, fabulous. Seriously, this is their cocaine, this. You’re doing that you’re sending them Coke is what you’re doing. You send them that letter, you’re sending them Coke, and they love it. Your tears, your anger, your angst is delicious to them. They are sick, Mother Cluckers. And they will never change and you’re never listen to me now, believe me later. You are never going to get the sense of justice, or whatever from them. Okay, let’s continue on with the article because I thought this was a really good article. Okay.

Criticize them intentionally to antagonize them. So, here’s something that my charming father and his ex wife did my entire life. They were divorced for 45 years by the time he died, okay. He had remarried, my mom had kids the whole thing, his ex and him sent vitriolic letters back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth on a weekly basis, literally, on a weekly basis. And every single time she responded, I’ll give you three guesses what my dad did. That woman she’s evil. She’s this she’s that…. rage, rage, rage, response, nasty, whatever. I remember I remember my mom sent. And of course, because unfortunately his first wife was also disordered, she would write right back. And they did this for 45 years. Like the last letter that got sent to him was the ex recriminated him for not buying my sister a pony? Yeah, crazy. Crazy. cray cray, like totally cray cray.

Kris Godinez  12:58

So they don’t get me started. So then who gets stuck in the middle of all this, but the kids you know it just… so what they will do is they take that nastiness and that it is delicious to them. They want to know you’re angry, they want to know your hurt. They want to know your sad, they want and they want to know how they hurt you. It’s literally porn for them. They get off on it, they do their sadists. Did I mention that? They’re sadists and they get off on knowing how they hurt you, because then they’re filing it away for future reference for their next target. Guarantee it! Don’t give them any ammo. All right, let’s continue on Hang on. Okay, criticizing them intentionally to antagonize them. That’s what my my dad and his ex always did. Why you don’t want to do that. You may have lashed out in anger at the narcissist in the past, however, you’re sinking to their level intentionally. And giving a reaction that they’re they’re letting you know you’ve been provoked. And that’s going to make them do it more because it’s all about power, and control, power and control. They are. power and control is the reason they do everything they want to know they have power over you. They want to know they have control over you. They want to know that they can hurt you, they enjoy it. So this is why you don’t want to do that. Furthermore, they may take things you do as criticism, and again, they’ll never acknowledge it. And if they do, they will turn it around, flip it around, play the victim again to their audience who is whoever will listen to them,

Mock or laugh at them. Why you don’t want to do this. It doesn’t matter if you do it subtly. They are notorious for invoking double standards and will invariably use the teasing as an opportunity to turn themselves into the victim especially if you’re dealing with a covert narcissist. In addition, humiliating them is also likely to invoke hostility and unpredictable acts of rage and vengeance from them. So Here’s the point, when you seek to enact vengeance on someone, make two graves, one for them and one for you. Because the reality of it is they won’t stop there like the Terminator once they’ve been wounded. If they’re cuckoo enough, if they’re like a dark triad, they won’t stop. And please, how many of us in this audience had had stalkers, myself included? Hello, you know, so they don’t stop until it’s clear that they’re going to lose. And the the odd the, the needing the losing has to be big enough that they’ll stop. If they’re somewhat sane if they’re not sane they’ll just keep going. Does that make sense? So they’re dangerous guys. It’s like everybody’s like, Oh, a little bit. Um, they just need to be loved to know that though. Not by you. Maybe God, maybe Buddha, but not by you. So get away from them. They are dangerous, they will continue the revenge game and then you’ll continue the revenge game. And then it’s back and forth endlessly. There’s another Buddhist saying, that is, you know, it revenge is like picking up two hot coals intending to throw them at somebody else, but who’s the only one getting burned? You are and we’re gonna go into why that’s a waste of energy and what the best thing is to do.

Treat them how they treated you when they devalued you why you don’t want to do this. They are manipulators, Master manipulators. And you are not you have a conscience is so it’s probably a fantasy that you can keep this up for long enough to make much of a difference. However, what you’re not taking into consideration is they have been perfecting, manipulation, lying, cheating, stealing gaslighting, rewriting history, all their lives, you haven’t. And this is not something you want to waste your time on, they are not worth it.

Kris Godinez  17:00

You, however, are worthy of your own time, and your own love, and your own growth and your own happiness. And if you’re spending all of your energy focusing in on revenge, and I’m going to make them understand and I’m going to get theirs in the I’m going to show them. And guess what you’re not doing living your best life. The best revenge swear to God, hand on heart, hello, is to live your best life. They hate that. Because they have no control. They have no control. They can’t mess with you. They can’t make you miserable. They can’t harm you. They can’t hurt you. They can’t control what you say do, think go have fun, whatever, they can’t control it. And that drives them crazy. So that is literally the best revenge.

Now, here’s the thing, there is a difference between standing up for yourself and seeking revenge. I want to make this very clear, because I’ve had some people try to argue with me on this. And I’m like, stop. Standing up for yourself is when you are saying no to abuse, and you’re getting away from it. That’s not revenge. That’s self-preservation. If the abuser is a stalker, and if they are continuing to harass you, after you have sent a written notice saying please stop contacting me otherwise I will consider this harassment and then they do it again. Okay, great. Now legally, you are within your right to go get an order of protection because you’ve given them a written notice. And they’ve continued to do it. That’s not revenge. That’s protection. Now, orders of protection are incredibly difficult to get. And they are not… listen to me now believe me later. They are not to be used as a revenge thing I’ve seen disordered people do that as well. It’s like, well, I’ll show them I’ll get an order of protection and that’ll fix their wagon and done it at it at it at no orders of protection are there so that you have a paper trail so that you can show the police, Yes, they continue to to stalk me on social media. Yes, I blocked them. Yes, they are getting fake accounts. Yes. They are getting burner phones. Yes. They are texting me. Yes. They are calling me. Yes, they are doing it. Does it take a while? Yeah, because again, our justice system is so FUBAR. It’s not even funny, but you’ve got a call every single time that they violate the order protection and once you get an order of protection, you cannot go in contact them because then they are well within their rights to go back and say hey, they contacted me um, you know, obviously I’m not that scary and you’ll get a squash and then getting another one is going to be next to impossible. So this is a way that I see targets of abuse, absolutely sabotaging themselves, you cannot contact them. Once you have gotten an order of protection. What you are going to do is document every single time they violate it, and you call the police, are they going to get sick of you? Are they going to be pissy and everything else like that yet? Probably because they’re jerks half the time. Not all police but a lot. So you know what I’m saying? And so you just keep you Just keep documenting, you just keep calling you just keep and if you need to get an attorney. Absolutely. And you may have a lawsuit against that police department if they don’t do what they’re supposed to. Don’t get me started. Okay, um, all right, so doo doo doo doo.

Okay, blatantly challenging what they say you’re gonna have to say no to them. Now this one says, you know, say no or blatantly challenge them, you’re gonna have to say no to them. This is where the difference between Revenge and standing up for yourself if they’re, you know being unreasonable which they are and nasty Yeah, you’re gonna want to stand up and say no and mean it and walk away though you’re not going to stay and argue with them this is the thing, once we have established a boundary, the first thing the Narcissist does is try to mow right over it. So you’re not you know, once you’ve said no, you turn around and walk out. You don’t stay for the ensuing argument. Because you’re not required to stay at every argument you’re invited to. You’re not! You have the power. And this is what I keep telling people, you’ve got the power walk the bleep away. Just you know, you state your case, and you’ll leave and that’s gonna piss them off for sure. But healthy, normal relationships piss them off. So, you know, you’re gonna have to say no to them occasionally, but don’t intentionally provoke them. Because they’re crazy. They’re like a loose cannon. Do you know where the term loose cannon came from? It came from the naval ships. And when the cannons were not secured, and the ship would roll or would fire the cannon would go flying across the deck and take out people innocent people you know what I’m saying is like people that were just standing around not having anything to do with the cannon so. So a loose cannon, you don’t know which way they’re gonna go. You don’t know if they’re gonna come flying across the deck, you don’t know what they’re gonna do. They are crazy, guys. I’m not kidding you. And then a lot of them are dangerous.

Kris Godinez  21:55

So, alright, um, so this one is saying don’t do gray rock. I disagree. gray rock is the best way to handle it. But then you walk away. And that is what you want to do is if they start stuff, and they’re being unreasonable, you give them nothing. And you know, and then you turn around, leave. Now, gray rocking does not work if you sit there and stay and have them scream at you. And you stay because eventually you’re gonna lose your cool. I mean, it takes a really well disciplined person to not lose their cool in the face of somebody you know, getting right up in your face and screaming at you or even possibly getting physical. So as soon as you’ve said no and you’ve gray rock, get the hell out, get the hell out. Okay? Be prepared for blowback, they are not going to like that, that you took your power back. Remember, they’re all about power and control. Alright, so that was that article. The best way is to walk away and live your best life. Yes, because that pisses them off, because they have no control over you or what you do or where you go. Or whatever.

Seven reasons why seeking revenge is a bad idea. It won’t make you feel better. They’ve done study after study, after study, after study, after study. And the anticipation of the revenge gives you that high because you’re having these fantasies of oh, I’m gonna get them and they’re gonna do this and they’re gonna, whoo, it’s really going to pick them up. But then the revenge happens and that doesn’t occur. It doesn’t give you the relief you’re looking for. And in fact, it keeps the boil festering, it keeps the pus there. It keeps it going. What you want to do is you want to drain that infection. You do you want to drain it. You want to get it out of your head, get it onto paper trotted out to the barbecue, read it out loud once burn it, do not send it do not do not Don’t. Don’t you do it? Don’t you do it, it’s not going to turn out. Well trust me on that one. So there is that, in fact, it might make you feel worse, it could backfire. They could then use what you have done to them as evidence in court, etc, etc, etc. You are wasting precious time, because they’re not worth any more of your time. They do not deserve one more second of your precious life energy. They don’t. And they will try to keep sucking it out. My dad and his ex, you know, they had they went on they remarried. Dad had another family. Could he enjoy that family? No, he couldn’t. He was miserable. You know, could she No, she couldn’t. She was miserable. You know what I’m saying? So it’s like, they just want to sit there and just suck the joy out of everything. And because they’re miserable. So again, they’re suffering they want everybody else to suffer. So there is that. Two wrongs don’t make a right. It will never make it right. And you could get caught in an endless loop of revenge. And that’s what I was talking about. And this is called ditch the label. And this is seven reasons why seeking revenge is a bad idea.

Okay, and then this one is talking about revenge. fantasies those are normal. People who are prone to revenge fantasies usually have PTSD or CPTSD, they were usually harmed themselves, especially in childhood. And yes, we all occasionally have thoughts of revenge we do, you know, but acting on them completely different story, it will not give you the relief that you are thinking it’s going to give you and it’s actually going to harm you. So this is why you want to work on you. This is why sometimes survivors of abuse when they come to see me get so angry, because I’m unwilling to continue to focus on the abuser. We need to focus on you. How’s your self-esteem? How’s your boundaries? What are your deal breakers? What do you want out of life? What makes you happy? What do you want to be doing? And they’re like, but But and then I’ll be like, Stop, how old are you? How old are you when you’re wanting to continue to focus on this person that reminds you of your family of origin. So remember, if we do not deal with that inner child that got screwed up by the family of origin, that little kid is the one that’s in charge of the picker.

Kris Godinez  26:09

And what they will do is they will go okay, well, if I can find somebody out here that loves me, I will prove these people wrong half of a doodoo, sandwich, half of a doodoo. Sandwich. Total doodoo sandwich, it never works. It never works. Stop focusing on the abuser start focusing in on yourself. When you write and burn the angry letters, this is for you and your inner child to express the anger, the sadness, the hurt the betrayal, the mourning, mourning the loss of what you thought you had, because they sell us a bill of goods, and we fall in love with an illusion. And we think that illusion is real until of course, it comes crashing down around our ears. And it’s clear that they’re a complete monster. And that that’s not who we fell in love with at all. And that’s devastating. And so writing and burning is the best way to get the, to put the closure on it.

Now, you’re not going to get closure, everybody keeps going, oh, I want closure, I want closure, you’re never gonna get closure from these mother Cluckers, you’re not, they don’t have the emotional ability to have a real conversation filled with emotion to give you the closure you’re looking for, you are going to have to close it yourself. Which means dear abuser, the good, whatever was good about it, here’s here’s the fantasy that you sold me the bad how they started changing once they realized they got their hooks into you and they had you the ugly when it really started getting bad and then the horrific and the unforgivable when they did the devalue in the discard. And then at the very end, you basically say, I’m taking my power back, you don’t own me, I refuse to let you live one more second in my head. I refuse, I have power over you a hole, you don’t get to live in my head. One more second, I am raising the rent, get out and then trot it out to the barbecue after you tell them whatever else you need to tell them. And usually for me, it would be a bunch of four letter words. But you trot it out to the barbecue, you read it out loud once and then you burn it and see how you feel. And if they take several letters, this is not a one and done. Guys, this is this is not this is going to be several of the angry letters but sending it to your abuser all you’re doing is handing in the ammunition they need to keep the feud going and to continue to have a messed up connection to you rather than no connection at all. Okay, how are we doing on time? All right, let’s see. I just want to hit this other letters that you Okay, so it’s basically work on self-acceptance and self-forgiveness and self-compassion, self-esteem. It’s going to be about you. It’s not going to be about them. Stop making it all about them. Okay.

Then this study is from Karen H. Hall or Karen Hall, PhD, and revenge. Will it make you feel better study after study shows that it will not so in case you were wondering, and in case you didn’t get this, the revenge will make you feel worse. Oh, Kay. All right.

So to recap, revenge is different than standing up for yourself. Standing up for yourself is making sure that this person doesn’t continue to harass you harm you hurt you hurt the kids harm the kids. Whatever. That’s not revenge. That’s self-protection. Okay, standing up to a corrupt government agency. You know, that’s refusing to enforce noise ordinances. Hello, Gilbert. Um, that’s standing up for yourself. Okay. That’s not revenge. That’s like nope, here’s the law. Here’s what needs to be happening Thank you. So but the remember the abuser will take whatever you do as a personal affront. And it is narcissistic injury to them to see you stand up for yourself. So you know, you’re on the right track when they’re pissed off that you’re standing up for yourself. So, so So standing up for yourself is different from revenge with revenge, the intent is to harm to hurt to make them understand. No. That’s not going to happen. There is no there there with them. There isn’t. So self-preservation using the law to protect you. That’s different. So, hope that is clear to everybody. Okay, let’s see, um, let’s go to the questions. And wait, wait, wait, I just want to recap this. So really what it is get it out of your head, get it onto paper, trot it out to the barbecue, read it out loud once burn it. Work with your therapist, your trauma therapist, okay? How old are you? When you’re wanting revenge? How old are you? And no, it’s not the age you are now How old is the inner child? How old is that little kid inside that just wants them to understand and hear you.

Kris Godinez  30:50

I just want to be heard. I just want to be understood. I just want. Of course you do sweetheart, but they’re incapable of it. Nothing on the face of this planet short of a literal biblical miracle would make them wake up to hear it. They don’t want to hear it and they’re not going to. So revenge is a dish best served cold. And the best way to get revenge is for you to live your best life, let it go, they’re not going to change, they’re not going to get it they’re not going to get the apology that you’re looking for. You’re going to have to learn to live with the apology that you never got. And you know you’re write and burn, write and burn. And eventually that need for revenge goes away. When you start loving yourself and working on self-esteem and working on boundaries and deal-breakers and you start figuring out what is my best life? What do I want? Where do I want to go? What What makes me happy? And you start doing that? Okay, now let’s focus in on the questions. Okay. Oh my god, I’m gonna need my glasses. Okay.

Ah, what is the difference between narcissistic traits and building self-esteem? I keep really freaking myself out thinking I’m practicing the wrong traits in therapy. Is that normal? Yes, it is totally normal. And here’s the reason why. Because there’s a bunch of really bad therapists. Let me just say this loud. Some people in the back in hear. Really bad therapist that go, oh, well, everybody’s narcissistic. No, they’re not. There is a difference between self-esteem and narcissism. Narcissists scream to the world. Tell me I’m great. Tell me I’m great. Tell me I’m great. I’m great. I’m great. I’m great. Tell me how great I am. I’m the best at everything. And to do that, and it’s to get other esteem. That’s what narcissism is all about. Hello, bad therapist. Did you not figure that one out? So do you see where I’m going with that? Yeah, and I make no apologies because I want those people out of my profession. So they don’t look for self-esteem. They’re always focused on other esteem, other people, giving them the goodies other people telling them how great they are. That’s why they’re always screaming to the world how great they are. A lion does not need to announce that they’re a lion. You just know it! Walks onto the Serengeti. You’re like, oh, look, a lion. You know, but narcissists need to walk into a room and announce how great they are. Oh, look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. I’m great. I’m this I’m that I’m good at it. I don’t know. That’s narcissism because it’s looking for and depending on other esteem, self-esteem, is just that quiet little voice in your head. That goes, You know what? I like you. You’re okay. That’s good. Thank you. Yeah, good job. Keep going. Oops, you screwed up. Okay. Forgive yourself. Make amends. Okay, good. You did alright, forgive yourself. Alright, great. Move on. Good job. You know, that’s it. That’s self-esteem, because you’re just relying on you. You’re not looking outside and going, tell me how great I am. Tell me how great I am. I’m so great. Tell me how great I am. You know, reassure me that I’m great. That’s what narcissists do. So self-esteem is just us, telling us little inner child, that we love them, and they’re good, and we like them. And we enjoy being around them. And let’s go have fun. And yeah, you know, self-esteem is just that quiet little voice is just encouraging. It’s like your own cheerleader. So narcissists have to have other esteem, self-esteem is just us with our inner child loving ourselves. Quiet Little Voice not asking for constant reassurance, not asking, and it’s okay to ask for reassurance every once in a while. But if you’ll ever if you’ve ever really been around a narcissist, they need constant, like never ending reassurance that they are the best of the best of the best of the best and that they’re the greatest and that they’re this and that. And that’s not healthy, normal people healthy, normal people don’t need that. They don’t, they really don’t. Once you love yourself, you are a self-sufficient unit. Really. It’s nice to have other people around. I’m not saying that you’re going to be alone on a mountaintop, you know, meditating or anything. But it’s nice to have other people around but you’re not needing them. Okay? narcissists need an audience need, like, need an audience, they need somebody to tell them they’re okay. They need somebody to tell them. They’re great. healthy, normal people don’t. So I hope that answered that question glasses. Okay. So really, when you’re doing self-esteem, what I like to do is mirror work and what you want to do and it feels weird to us.

Kris Godinez  35:26

So let me be very clear. When we first start working on self-esteem, it feels weird. So when we’re doing the whole looking in the mirror, hi, good to see you. Have a great day, I give you permission to say nice things about yourself and then walk out. It’s gonna feel really weird. And that inner critic is going to pop up remember Pete Walker, hello, CPTSD from surviving to thriving Pete Walker, get it. Read it, do it. So this thing will pop up and be like, oh, you can’t say that. You can’t do that. Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, especially if we had parental units that made us wrong. Put us down. We’re in competition with us. How dare you like yourself? How dare you say nice things to you, etc, etc, etc. So you’re gonna have to pay attention to what the inner critic is saying. And then you put it down. Thank you for your input. Inner Critic. Shut the bleep up. Why? Because I say so. I get to like myself, I get to be my own cheerleader. Why? Because I say so. And you’re going to have to do that. And that’s going to have to become the habit instead of the negative inner critic. So there is that? Okay, um, alright. But it is normal to have it feel weird. It really is. And we do freak out about being narcissist. But here’s another another way that you’ll know that you’re not narcissists never question themselves, ever. They don’t they do not sit there and go, Hmm, am I a narcissist? Is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? They don’t do that. In fact, if you tell a narcissist, they’re a narcissist, what they’ll do is throw their nose up in the air and go, Oh, of course. Of course, I’m a narcissist. greatest thing ever. They don’t understand the narcissism is not a compliment, right? And they never questioned themselves. And they never, they never have introspection, they don’t ever contemplate their part in the universe. You know, they just don’t, whereas healthy normal people do. You know, did I hurt somebody? Did I harm somebody? Can I make amends? What is my part in this? How am I doing? This? Is my ego in charge? You know, that’s another question to always ask. And I was talking to Paula my hairdresser when we were cutting my hair. And she’s like, you know, a lot of people would be too afraid to do a haircut like that. And I’m like, Well, I don’t have much of an ego. And I really don’t care about other people’s opinions. Unless they are people I love and are close to me. You know, it’s like the egos not involved. And it looks bad. It looks bad. No, that looks good. It looks good. And you know, there’s none of that ego stuff there. But narcissists are all ego all the time. There is nothing but ego. They will never be anything other than ego. It’s always about other people’s opinions, other people’s thoughts, other people’s approval other people, other people, other people. You know, my dad’s hue and cry is, well, what will they think and when I tried to nail him down on who is they? He couldn’t give me an answer. But it terrified him about what they thought and I’m like, well, who’s they? Who’s, who’s this nebulous they? And that’s what narcissists live in is what they think. And it’s not even people even know. They’re worried about appearance. They’re worried about their ego. They’re worried about you. Do you see where I’m going with that? So there is that? Okay, let’s see. How are we doing on time? Oh, plenty of time. Okay.

Kris Godinez  38:54

Is a narc always looking for its victims to retaliate? So he or she can even be more abusive? Yes. It seems that a narc is always picking fights with their victims. Yes, absolutely. So remember, narcissists. Look at the world the way….. they think of other people the way they are. So if they would be petty and mean and nasty and vindictive, and this that and the other thing, they automatically assume everybody else around them is going to be mean and nasty and petty and vindictive, because that’s how they would do it. So, remember, the narcissist cannot put themselves into another person’s shoes. They don’t feel the way we do. They don’t have the moral compass. They don’t have the sense of introspection. They don’t, they’re not able to go, what must that feel like for that person? You know, they can’t do it. It’s just not there. And so, the way they view the world is well, they’re going to do what I would do. And I don’t even know if that’s necessarily a conscious thought it’s just, well, they’re gonna exact act exactly the way I do. Because to them, everybody is a mirror of them, which is why they hate anybody that is not them. Right? They they’re not nice people to people who are not them. So that’s why they hate people that love. That’s why they hate people that feel that’s why they hate the opposite sex. That’s why they hate the same sex. That’s why they because they hate they just, they frickin hate. So they don’t like anything that is not them. And so they can’t put themselves in somebody else’s shoes. They immediately assume which makes an ass out of you and me that everyone is going to respond to react the way they do, because that’s what they would do. Well, I would do this so they’re going to do that. Well, actually no. healthy normal people would recognize the dysfunction and go buh bye now by and walk away. Whereas they would engage in an ongoing argument and vindiction and vindiction. Is that even a word? Good God, vindictiveness, you know, and whatever. So yeah, that’s, that’s why they do the things they do and they do absolutely look for fights. They absolutely look for fights because remember, anger is delicious to them. Your tears are delicious to them. They are sadists, they enjoy it. Anger jacks up the endorphins, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin is the whole thing. It’s it makes you feel good. So that’s why if you ever go to an AAA meeting, and there’s a bunch of dry drunks, they’re the old dry drunks that are maybe not using, but they’re not happy about it, right? They’re angry as hell. And the reason they’re doing that is because they’re jacking up their endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine is trying to get high. Narcissists do the same thing. At some point, I’m going to be talking about the addictions that narcissists have and one of them is anger. You betcha. So yeah, they do. They look for fights. And remember, they would rather have a messed up connection to somebody, than no connection at all. And so one of the ways they do that is to try to engage you in arguments, you are not obligated to attend every argument you’re invited to. In fact, don’t! Say no, walk away, gray rock, buh bye! Have nothing to do with it. But yeah, they will they do they look for reasons to abuse. They do. They’re They’re horrible human beings. And they look for reasons to have an argument so they can jack up their endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, etc, etc, etc. So yeah, they absolutely do. Yeah, you’re not wrong. That’s a good observation.

Okay, um, why would a narcissist keep going on about old stuff? I think they seem to hold on to bad stuff to use it against a healthy person. So annoying. and hard work. Okay, so narcissists cannot stand it… Like if the world were perfect, I’m pretty convinced that all of them would drop down. Wouldn’t that be nice. So they cannot stand it when there’s nothing new for them to nitpick. So what they will do is they will grab the past and pull it into the present, and start beating their target about the head and shoulders with it, even though it was something that happened 20/30 years ago, they will do that, because they’re constantly ruminating, they’re constantly looking for a way to jack up their endorphins are constantly looking for ways to harm that other person. And if there’s nothing currently going on, they’ll bring stuff up from the past. Absolutely. And basically, when you recognize somebody is doing that, that’s when you cut them off, that’s when you go no contact, because they’re living in the past, they’re, you know, trying to hurt you with things that maybe you did in your past. And they’re never going to change, they’re never going to grow, they’re never going to acknowledge what they’re doing. And this is just a dysfunction that you need to get away from.

Kris Godinez  43:48

So if this is what they’re doing, thank them for the lesson and really get away from them as quickly as possible. Okay, let’s see where we go in here. Um, well, and you know, here’s the other thing, when somebody does do that, and they bring up the past, you have the right to say, I’m not talking about that. Now, they’re not gonna like it. And that’s again, that’s your cue to leave. So that that’s part of the gray rocking, and that’s part of the boundary. And I think that should be a deal breaker. If somebody’s continually bringing up the past that needs to be a deal breaker, you know, especially if it’s something that they can harm you with, hurt you with embarrass you with etc, etc, etc. If they’re constantly bringing that up. You’ve got to be like, No, thank you. I am unwilling to discuss that. Well, but why we are done bye and then you leave. So yeah, absolutely. You are not obligated to attend every argument you’re invited to. Okay.

My friend just moved out of her narc mothers. She doesn’t want to cut her off out of fear of her mother’s breakdown. Is this a gray rock situation or a hard cut off situation? Well, honey, I don’t know. I don’t know what the situation is. I don’t have enough info. But let me tell you something that I do know. Abusers will use the mental breakdown as an excuse to terrorize their children. So, what I have seen narcissists do although they usually don’t act out on it, they will do the suicidal gestures or the suicidal ideation. And they do this to terrorize the kids, especially if it’s directed, you know, well, you left me so I was so depressed, I killed myself or I tried to kill myself or you know, my life is your fault. And I have nothing to live for bla bla bla bla bla. So they do that they absolutely… malignant borderlines and the malignant narcissist, absolutely, if they feel they can control and manipulate by making you terrorized that they’re going to hurt themselves, they will pull that. Absolutely. So here’s the deal, you cannot be held hostage to their threat to harm themselves. If they say they’re going to harm themselves, you call 911. And you request a welfare check, or you call the crisis line in your county and you request a welfare check. So you do not allow yourself to be held hostage to the threat of I’m going to have a breakdown, I’m going to kill myself, I’m going to hurt myself. You know, they do that you get onto the phone as soon as they’re off the phone and you call 911 Ask for a welfare check. Tell them what’s going on. Call crisis as for welfare check, tell them what’s going on called both whatever, you know what I’m saying you do not we do not negotiate with terrorists. And this is just a way to terrorize people, you know, threatening to kill yourself with the intent of controlling and manipulating Okay, now this is different if somebody is in an altered state, and they are you know, depressed and you know, dealing with stuff and they don’t see another way out. With a narcissist. This is done with intent, to control to manipulate to terrorize to make that person come back to make that person fall in line, etc, etc. And that’s totally different. So, yeah, you call crisis or you call 911 and request a welfare check and you do not put up with it, because they will use that threat of mental breakdown or suicidal gesture suicidal ideations to keep that child trapped and don’t fall for it, because that’s one of their big ways of doing it. Okay, um, all right. To to do where to go. And as far as going no contact or, or gray rock, you know, that’s entirely up to the person. And I don’t know about enough about the situation to advise. So I would say get with a good trauma therapist, get that person to a good trauma therapist, and have them start working on boundaries and deal breakers and how to deal with the guilt. Because that’s what the abuser is doing is doing that threat to make you feel guilty so that you’ll come back into line. So yeah, get with a good trauma therapist start working on the guilt.

Okay, if you ignore a narc Oh, go or go, no contact with them. Do they see this as abuse being done to themselves? Absolutely. Hmm, good lord. They do not take responsibility for a damn thing.

Kris Godinez  48:09

They these, these are the ones that are like, huge red flags. So, you know, none of their kids are talking to them. None of their kids want anything to do with them. And yet they’re playing the martyr. You know, poor me. Nobody wants to talk to me. My family’s not telling me they’re so mean to me And I’m like, Okay, well, if all of your kids are not speaking to you and other family members are not speaking to you. The common denomination is you. So yeah, that. Yeah, so they will absolutely they don’t ever take personal responsibility, they will absolutely play the victim.

One of my narcs Flying Monkeys harassed me for a while after I went no contact and blamed me. Okay, here’s the deal. As soon as a flying monkey interjects themselves into your family situation, you know, they’re a flying monkey because it’s none of their damn business. Okay? It’s not. So when a flying monkey goes, Oh, well, they’re your they’re your parent. You can’t go no contact. Yeah, can watch me. And here’s the deal breaker. If you bring this up again, you and I will no longer be talking because you are now a flying monkey. Because you are working on behalf of the abuser. You know, the abuse I went through and yet you’re telling me that I cannot go no contact with somebody who abused me. How about you sit down and shut the bleep up? No, and I mean it. You’re gonna have to be brave. And I talked about this a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago, maybe two months ago? I can’t remember. But I did one on No. And I mean it and you’re gonna have to get forceful with these flying monkeys and if they bring it up again, you cut them off. Absolutely. Think of it as cleaning out your closet. You are getting rid of clothing that doesn’t fit, has got holes in it doesn’t make you look good. whatever, you’re doing the same thing with the people around you, you’re getting rid of people that are flying monkeys that are abusive, that are disordered, that are harmful, that are hurtful that are mean that are nasty. They’re lying. They’re cheating. They’re stealing. They’re rewriting history. They’re gaslighting. Do you see where I’m going with that? So you have the right to determine who you have in your life. And if somebody is acting on behalf of the abuser, they’re doing abuse by proxy, basically, because they’re trying to inflict guilt. How dare you! How dare you go? No contact? How dare you tell me I can’t go no contact, get out. And then cut them off. I know it feels weird. Sounds weird. But this is part of drawing boundaries. This is self-esteem. This is self-preservation. This is not revenge. This is self-preservation. Does that make sense? So yeah, that’s what you want to be doing? Okay. Let’s see. Huh?

Okay, what other personality disorders or mental illnesses tend to be comorbid with narcissism any and all. So here’s the thing, narcissists any any mental health issue can be comorbid with anything like seriously, like the entire DSM can be comorbid with the entire DSM. So, narcissists can be comorbid with depression, they can be comorbid. With bipolar, they can be comorbid. With borderline, they can be comorbid with OCD, they can be comorbid, you know, you name it, it can be comorbid. So there’s a whole bunch, you know, so it’s, they can have more than one. And here’s the thing as they slide down the spectrum as they go from traits of, to strong traits of two down to the dark side. And they’re dark triads, all of antisocial can be comorbid. That’s a common one. And they all start overlapping, all of the personality disorders start over lapping, and they start expressing traits of all of them. It’s just what happens. So um, yeah, so that’s kind of what they do. All right. Okay. Are there any other questions? Let me double check. Make sure. Um, wait a minute. Oh, there is a question.

What do I do with my glasses? They’re there. Okay. Ah, all right. What do I do if my abuser is completely covert? My mom asked me to give her money for cigarettes and tells me it’s for me too. And she tells me it’s my choice. But it really isn’t. Because when I don’t give her the money, she makes me wrong for it. How should I react? Don’t give her the money. And she can make you wrong all day long. The problem of it is you’re making it mean something about yourself you’re feeling guilty would be my guess. So when somebody is a user, an abuser, they when they don’t get their way. narcissists act about like a two year old.

Kris Godinez  52:57

They have a temper tantrum, they make you wrong. They do whatever they need to to try to force you to do what they want. That’s what that’s what they do. So if the anger doesn’t work, suddenly the waterworks will start if the waterworks don’t start, then the guilt will start if the guilt doesn’t start, then they’ll do something else that suicidal gesture and suicidal behavior and suicidal thoughts blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So whatever works is what they’ll try. What you have got to do is make yourself bulletproof to her manipulations, get with a good trauma therapist start working CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. The self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi the disease to please by Harriet breaker. The inner child workbook either by Katherine Taylor or Lucia Capachione. You are badass by Jen Sincero all of those books are really useful in helping to build yourself up you know, so um, yeah, that’s that’s what I would suggest you got to make yourself bulletproof. Okay, let me check make sure there’s no other questions. Okay, that is it.

Alright, so to recap narcissists will never get the revenge they don’t they never make it about them. They don’t. They will use it as an excuse to continue the nastiness and keep the dysfunctional connection you don’t want that. You want to go live your best life you want to be absolutely free of them. Absolutely free of them. You don’t want them taking up residence up here, boot them out, evict them write and burn write and burn do not send, do not send, write and burn sounds like a rap song. Write and burn. Do not send okay? Because you’re just giving them ammunition. So go live your best life work on you. self-acceptance, self-esteem, boundaries, deal breakers. You know, what do you want? What do you want really mere work? Hello, good to see you have a great day I give you permission to like yourself and then walk out. Work on you. You are worthy of your own time. Your own love and your own attention. Do not allow them to take up even a millisecond of your life. Punt them out again. Their worst fear is that you don’t ever think of them. So let that be reality. You know what I’m saying? All right, my love’s go be awesome. Have a great week. Drink plenty of water and I will talk to you soon. Bye

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. Ph.D. level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

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