We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

06-12-2022 Weird Thinking
In this episode of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez, Kris discusses ego defenses and magic thinking. The weird ways abusers think.

Kris Godinez  00:02

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez  podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, a licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA, or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. Ph.D. level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Alright, so I think today we need to dive in to the weird thinking that narcissists have because it’s, it’s breathtakingly bizarre. So, one of the things that I get asked a lot is how in the world can they say and do these horrible, awful, terrible things, and then literally believe that they never said or did any of these horrible, awful, terrible things. So, we’re going to be talking a lot about magic thinking, we’re going to be talking a lot about ego defense mechanisms. So, ego defense mechanisms. So alright, let’s dive into it. So, what is an ego defense mechanism? Now this is This is Anna Freud that came up with this stuff. So it is part of the Freudian psychoanalytical thing and a lot of Freud stuff. I’m just like, Dude, you’re so wrong, but with a lot of stuff with this stuff. It’s right on. So, you’re going to notice a lot of it. So, let’s look at the defense mechanisms 10 defense mechanisms. This is simple psychology. What are they and how they help us cope? Now. I want to be clear, we all at times will do ego defense mechanisms because it’s a way to protect ourselves. It’s a way to keep ourselves safe. Is it maladaptive? Well, it’s maladaptive if that’s your only go to so, in other words, narcissists are nothing but ego. There is no there, there… literally, it’s all ego. And so all they do all the time 24/7 is ego defense, ego, defense, ego  defense, ego defense, ego defense, ego defense. And that is why when they get narcissistic injury, they come unglued, because it’s really threatening to them.

So, let’s talk about the defenses. Okay, denial. Denial is a defense mechanism involves refusing to accept reality, thus blocking external events from awareness. So, if something doesn’t jibe with the abuser, they simply deny. I never said that. That never happened. I never did that. That was your you’re remembering it wrong. That’s one of their great lines that they love to give this. So um, and it creates cognitive dissonance in us, because we sit there and we go, Wait a minute, I know what happened. I know what you said, I know what you did. And you’re telling me and they will say it. Look you dead in the eye and deny it they lie. They’re pathological liars. We’re going to talk about that as well. And it makes us go, Whoa, I but I remember you said that. But, but and then we start second guessing ourselves. So it creates cognitive dissonance. Now when we get cognitive dissonance, we get confused. We go into that fog, fear, obligation, guilt, and we start going Oh, I must. I must be remembering it wrong. No, no, you’re not remembering it wrong. They’re lying. They’re doing the denial thing. So, so much. So when they deny and lie, we get confused and we fall into that it must be me. I must be remembering it wrong. You know, they must be right bla bla bla. And so we stop trusting our guts and we stop trusting what we know. Right? And that’s what they want. When they get cognitive dissonance. They just get angry and go on a rampage because they’ve had narcissistic injury and we’ll talk more about that. So that’s the difference between healthy people that are targets and abusers so healthy people start immediately questioning themselves, they’re like, oh my god, it must be me. Whereas an abuser is You, You, You, You, guns all over the place and anger like nobody’s business.

Okay, so denial now Okay, again I want to point out Healthy People do have ego defenses we do because everybody’s got a small amount of ego not a small amount of narcissism I get so angry when people are like, well everybody’s a narcissist and like only a true narcissist would say that you know what I’m saying? So, we all have a little bit of ego the goal is to pretty much get the ego out of the way the ego is the one that causes the problems the ego is the one that’s like me me I,I,I, more my genitals you don’t want that. You want to be sincere. You want to be honest, you want to be open you want to be in the moment those people are never in the moment those abusers are never in the moment ever. They’re always looking for how they can screw their next person, how they can get ahead how they can harm how they can hurt. And yes, it is on purpose. Let’s be very clear about that. That’s another thing i Oh my Lord Kim Saeed and Shahida Arabi have been on a roll this week, both of them and they’ve been posting stuff about yes, they know what they do. They are doing. Yes, it is intentional. Yes, they are doing this to you, you know, and I’m just like, you go girls, you go. I love them both. They are so cool. If you want somebody’s different opinion than mine, go to Kim Saeed go to Shahida Arabic go to Susanna Quintana. They’re all awesome. They are all like really powerful, awesome, women. And I love them. So yeah, they’re very cool.

All right. So denial, denial. Now, for us. Denial is deadly. Because what we ended up doing is we deny that we know what we know. So we’re handing our power over to the abuser. We’re basically going, I obviously am remembering it wrong. You’re right. I’m wrong. One up one down. That’s what the abuser wants. So, we deny and we start going, Oh, well, they’re not as bad. Oh, well. Oh, they didn’t mean it that way. Oh, well, you know, maybe, maybe they’re having a bad day. Maybe. You know, maybe it is me maybe and so denial is deadly. Because that’s what keeps us stuck with one of these Yahoo’s in a relationship and I want to be very clear, females can be narcissist. Males can be narcissistic men can be borderline, females can be borderline, it doesn’t matter if they’re abusive, they’re abusive period, no matter what their diagnosis if they’re abusing their abusive. So, it keeps us stuck. And it can be same sex, it can be opposite sex, it can be whatever. It keeps us stuck in these relationships that are abusive because we’re in denial about what’s going on. They’re denying what they’ve said. And we get kicked into cognitive dissonance which causes us to second guess our own gut. Don’t second guess your gut. If you get nothing else out of anything today. Do not second guess your gut. The head will tell stories. The heart will tell stories that gut is a simple yes or no answer to a yes or no question. Trust your gut, start practicing. And I think I’ve talked about this before. Start with something you already know. I hate peanut butter. Do I hate peanut butter gut? Oh God. Yes. And it’s like a visceral, you know, like, I’m going to throw up kind of thing. So listen to what your know is, what do you already know that you don’t like? Okay, what do I like? I don’t know, fill in the blank. And then see how your body reacts? And then ask the opposite question about something you already do know that you do like, Okay, do I like Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups? Oh, yes. Calm, no story. No, nothing. If there’s a bunch of story going on. It’s the head and the hearts, not the gut. Start listening to your gut. Okay

So the next defense mechanism, repression. repression is a defense mechanism employed by the ego to keep disturbing or threatening thoughts from coming to the consciousness.

Kris Godinez  08:42

So in other words, okay, so basically, abusers want their target dead, they do. And they will go to great lengths to shove those thoughts down, and then they’ll do the opposite, which is we’ll get to that defense mechanism in a moment. But when somebody does the opposite of what they were really thinking, that’s also a defense mechanism. So let’s say somebody is got some sort of medical issue, and they really do want them dead. So then they’ll go into hyper overdrive, I need to protect them, I need to do this, I need to do that. And yet they’re resentful about it. And so that’s kind of how you can tell Oh, there’s something there’s something not right here, you know, so um shoving stuff down, shoving stuff down. Unfortunately, targets do that, too. If there’s an uncomfortable thought, like, oh my gosh, I think this person might be an abuser. We start trying to find the good stuff. So, it’s like, it’s like we shove all the evidence out of the way all the red flags that are looking like a Communist Party. And we go Oh, no, but there’s this good thing about them. Oh, no, it’s you know, so we start shoving those thoughts down. That’s dangerous for us. So yeah, all right. So there is that repression.

Okay, projection, this one you guys should be familiar with. So when, and this goes along with showing the thought Stick around, when they are having the thoughts, when they are doing the behavior, they cannot accept anything less than they are perfect in their heads, they’re cuckoo. So, in their heads, they have never done a wrong thing. They are not having an affair or they’re not doing anything wrong, blah, blah, blah. So, they will turn onto their partner and start accusing the partner of cheating. If they’re the one cheating.

Kris Godinez  10:27

They’ll start accusing the partner of lying, they’re the one lying. They’ll start accusing the partner. So they’re projecting, they’re taking all of this stuff that they can’t acknowledge or accept. And then they shove it on to the partner.

The next step in that ego defense is rationalization. So once they’ve projected onto the partner, all of this stuff, and they are the ones having the affair, then they start rationalizing why, wow, you weren’t paying enough attention to me, you weren’t rationalization, that’s another defense mechanism, you weren’t paying enough attention to me, you, you were taking care of the kids and you ignored me, blah, blah, blah. Remember, we talked about that in parenting. So good parents understand the kids are going to get attention, the partner is going to get attention, and each partner has to has to get themselves attention. With an abuser, especially with a nurse, especially a dark triad. You cannot show attention to anybody else except them. And so they use that as a rationalization for cheating. And so once they get through the projection of it, then they start rationalizing is that the next one, please tell me about the next one. No, and the next one is displacement.

So, displacement is the redirection of an impulse, usually aggression or anger onto a powerless substitute target. So my dad would do that. So, he was an attorney. And he would, you know, go up against these judges, and I’m sure he had days where they just renamed him, and he’d come home, and he would take it out on me and the dog, like, literally, the reason I left home is because he kicked my dog. And I was like, That’s it, I’m done. I’m just peace out. I’m out of here. I’m going to my sister’s, and this is when my mother threw herself on my car and talk about frickin drama. Anyway, she lived life, like it was a soap opera she did. Anyway, the point being is, is he got beat up by somebody that was more powerful than him. And then he came home and took it out on, you know, a teenager and her dog. And that’s what abusers do. So, it’s that whole thing of the boss yells at the abusive husband or wife, the abusive husband or wife comes home and yells at the kid. And then the kid goes out and throws rocks at a bird or something. I mean, it’s kind of an exaggeration, but it’s showing and of course, I never did that, because I love animals. So, it’s showing how you know it gets substituted. So somebody more powerful beats up and then beats up and then beats up and then beats up and then beats up. And it’s something that abusers do all the time when they can’t harm whoever is really putting them in their place. They’ll go find somebody powerless to do it, too. Which is why you will see abusers treat people that can do nothing for them horribly. The homeless, waiters, you know, workers, people behind the counter, I just the things I’ve heard come out of people’s mouths. I was just like, are you serious right now? Are you kidding me? You’re treating a human being like that. What is wrong with you? Well, what’s wrong with them is that they’re a dark, dark, dark triad, sociopath. They don’t understand that people have feelings, they don’t care. And people are nothing more than objects to them to be used. So, they feel perfectly validated, and taking their anger out on somebody else. It makes them feel powerful. So again, that jacks up their ego so anyway, substitution, that’s one of the displacement. That’s one of the ego defenses.

Regression. If you’ve ever been around a narcissist long enough or an abuser long enough, you will notice that they are extremely childish. I don’t mean childlike. There’s a big difference. childlike, is having that childlike wonder where you’re like, Oh, look at the stars. Oh my god, this is so cool. You know that kind of thing. That’s childlike wonder that’s childlike childdish is that selfish temper tantrum. I’m going to get my way and interaction like two-year-olds. So, they often resort to that, especially if you ever notice if you’re ever in a an argument with an abuser, they will regress and they will start calling names. They’ll start you know, it’s like you’re dealing with a two-year-old they have a temper tantrum because they don’t like being challenged. So, there is that one, hang on. All right, hold on.

Sublimation is similar to displacement but takes place when we manage to displace our unacceptable emotions into behaviors which are constructive and socially acceptable rather than destructive activity. Sublimation is one of Anna Freud’s original mechanism. So, okay. Sublimation is actually what I’m having you guys do when we’re writing and burning, okay? And it’s partly because we’re dealing with that inner child that is terrified and can’t really say things directly. Obviously, we can’t say things directly to the abuser, because they’ll turn around and abuse us even more. So we’re doing something that’s socially acceptable. We’re writing and burning it, we’re getting all those angry thoughts out of her head onto paper so that we don’t harm ourselves and we don’t harm somebody else. Not that they can be hurt. But the point being is, is that it’s a socially acceptable way of dealing with anger. The other socially acceptable way of dealing with anger is my punching bag. I have a punching bag, or I did, I had to sell it because it fell apart. But um punching bag outside, and I get angry, I go out and I pound on it. I need to get a new one. But you know, and it’s a healthy way to let go of anger. And boy, there’s been a lot of weird stuff going on lately. So yeah, so there is that. So that’s substituting something healthy, that’s not going to harm you, that’s not going to harm somebody else. That one’s not so bad.

Rationalization we talked about so they rationalize why they’re harming somebody, they literally will convince themselves in their head that what they’re doing is okay, and they’ll come up with a whole bunch of reasons why. It’s okay. So that’s rationalization. You’ll see that a lot and addicts so you know, if you’re working with an addict population, and I’m talking to those of you that want to become counselors, they live in rationalization and excuse making, you know, denial, the whole thing. So Well, I had to I had to do this because you made me mad. So alcoholics and drug addicts use that all the time. Well, I went out and use because you made me mad. Really?

Kris Godinez  16:58

It’s kind of like, the personal responsibility and all that, shall we talk about? So yeah, and again, abusers do not take personal responsibility. You made me, you made me Wow, dude, are you really that powerless or dudette? Are you really that powerless? Really, you know, you made me do this, you made me hit you. You made me hurt you. You made me call you names. You made me. You made me. You made me. And they believe it. 100%. So it’s that combination denial, and you know, ego protection and the whole thing and they rationalize having hit somebody having hurt somebody having, they’re never wrong, they never take responsibility, they will not change, they will never change. They don’t change, there are no recovered narcissists. Let’s be very clear. There are no recovered narcissists. Alright. Okay, so there is that. Okay, rationalization, we talked about that.

Reaction formation, reaction formation, is believing the opposite. It’s a psychological defense mechanism in which a person goes beyond denial and behaves in an opposite way to which he or she thinks or feels. Now, that’s what I was talking about when they really want their partner dead. And they have some sort of medical issue going on, they go overboard, saying that they’re helping them and this and that, and, you know, I’m Florence Nightingale, blah, blah, blah. And the reality of it is, they’re also at the same time doing everything we can to kill the person. A great example of that is when the target of abuse has diabetes. And the abuser is shoving chocolates and candy and alcohol and everything else, it’s going to kill them at them. But yet, at the same time, oh, one, I’m taking all these nursing courses, and I’m doing this and I’m doing that, but yet, they’re doing the very thing that’s going to harm them the most. So, so that’s reaction formation. Okay.

Um, introjection, sometimes called identification involves taking into your own personality characteristic of someone else, because doing so solves some emotional difficulty. It’s very important to the Freudian theory as the mechanism by which we develop our super egos. So, if you will notice, abusers absolutely take on other people’s personality. So, what they do is they love to get together with empathic, healthy, wonderful, normal people, because they lack empathy, health, normality. Being Human. There we go. So, the what they think is that when they hear good news, bad news, the way they target their targets is that we have something they want. We have something they want, and they think that by being with us, they’re going to be able to absorb it and become us and have empathy. Have kindness and have human emotions and have all of these fun things. What happens is, is once they get with their empathic target, they soon realize I still don’t feel anything. I still don’t feel anything. I still feel thing instead of taking a look in the frickin mirror and going, gee, maybe I’m the problem. What they do is they go, how dare you not fix me? How dare you not cure me! How dare you not let me feel I want your empathy. I want that, well, if I can’t have it, you can’t have it.

Kris Godinez  20:31

So they are abusive. And they will then this is this is when the love bombing is done. This is when they set their sights on destroying their target, absolutely destroying their target because they’re angry that they cannot have what that target has a sense of humor, like a real sense of humor, not snark. A joy, this joi di vie you know, loving life childlike wonder really enjoying things, managing to find the silver lining and darn near anything, they get angry when they realize that they cannot absorb that and become that and they try. They try to take on. I’ve seen them dress like their target of abuse. I’ve seen them adopt, they’re talking I’ve seen them you know, they try it. They’re trying things on because they don’t have a true sense of self. They’re all ego healthy, normal people are not just all ego. There’s other things going on. Oh my contacts just flipped out. Whoa, hello. So, there’s other things going on and the healthy normal people are rich and complex and have a lot of emotions and love and happiness and joy and sadness and anger and all the other emotions in between. narcissists have pretty much got anger down pat, that’s about it. They don’t really feel they don’t know how to love. They don’t, they say they love you. They say pretty words, but they’re not feeling it guys. And I think that’s where we get screwed up is because we assumed that they’re like us and that they feel and they don’t. So um, okay, let’s get back to that. How are we doing on time? Oh, doing good. Okay, introjecction. So, taking on the characteristics of someone else trying to find out you know, if this works, you know, you know, I’m going to I’m gonna take over this person’s personality.

Identification with the aggressor. This is important for everyone going through a divorce, custody hearing, identification with the aggressor. This is what the kids are doing. I keep trying to explain this to people. So identification with the aggressor is a defense mechanism. It involves the victim adopting the behavior of a person who is more powerful and hostile towards them. So all right, this is important to talk about.

Kris Godinez  22:59

Abusers rule by fear abusers rule by intimidation. That’s their whole game. They don’t really have much else in the playbook. But when they’re when they’re terrorizing their own child. They use fear, obligation, guilt, and kids cognitively cannot cope with that. So, they start identifying with the abuser. When… Okay, so this is Stockholm Syndrome, basically. So, when Stockholm syndrome was first discovered, it was back in the 70s. It was a bank heist. It was in Stockholm, Sweden. Robbers came in, took over the bank held the hostages for one week, one week, and by the time they were done, some of the hostages not all of them. But some of the hostages totally identified with the aggressors, remained friends with them, to this day, testified on their behalf, the whole thing took one week. Imagine what happens to a little kid who’s little, not cognitively developed, and they’re being withheld by the abuser and not being allowed to see the healthy parent for months. And then parents come to me and they’re angry and they’re scared and they confused and they don’t understand how could they have possibly aligned with the abuser. Because of this, they have aligned with the abuser because of identification with the aggressor. By internalizing the behavior of the aggressor, the victim or the target, hopes to avoid abuse. That is a very little baby way of thinking. That’s a very young way of thinking that is a that is what children do to try to stop from being abused. As the aggressor may begin to feel an emotional connection with the victim, which leads to feelings of empathy. I don’t know if there’s actual empathy, but what the aggressor will do, is they will go Ah, you’re on my side. That’s really there’s no empathy there. It’s like, oh, you’re agreeing with me. Okay, well, then I’m going to treat you Okay. I’m going to treat you know, somewhat normally, I’m going to treat you know, whatever so that’s what’s going on guys. That’s what’s going on and the aggressor, the abuser’s weird thinking influences that child. Yes, they are doing parental alienation. Yes, they are telling the child everything horrible about you. Yes, they are informing them of everything that’s going on in the custody battle, the divorce, etc., etc., etc. And that poor kid, instead of siding with the healthy parent is going to side with the aggressor, if there is no therapy involved, which is why you must, and I’m keep saying that until everybody in the back hears it, you must get a therapist to work with the children, you must, especially if there’s been alienation, you have to repair that relationship and help them understand what’s happening, cognitively appropriate. And that’s hard to do. And that’s hard to find a good therapist that understands, okay, this is what’s been going on this is what’s been happening, this is what is needing to be fixed. So that is what’s happening. It’s an ego defense. And it’s a very young, little baby child ego defense to try to stay safe from a bigger, more powerful, more aggressive, nasty abuser. That is why they side with the abuser. It’s not because they think they’re great or anything else they’re trying to stay safe. So really, identification with the aggressor is a version of introjection that focuses on the adoption of not of general or positive traits, but of negative or feared traits. So that’s why they start acting like the abuser. That’s why they start being snarky. That’s why they start saying these horrible things to the parent that does love them. If you’re afraid of someone, you can partially conquer that fear by becoming more like them. That’s what the kids are doing. An extreme example of this Stockholm Syndrome.

Kris Godinez  26:47

Hostage is established a motion an emotional bond with their captors and took on some of their behaviors. Patty Hearst was another one she was taking on the behaviors of the people that kidnapped her. So anyway, I think this is really important to put in your arsenal to understand why it is so important to demand therapy for your kids. And if there is parental alienation going on, you snip that in the bud as quickly as possible, you make sure that they don’t take your kid for months at a time, there’s been cases where that I’m dealing with where the parent just took the kid, and you wouldn’t hand them over came up with all these excuses. Meanwhile, the legal battles and maneuvers were going on. And by the time the healthy parent got the child back, the child was completely brainwashed, completely believing that this parent, the healthy parent was the bad one and was totally identifying with that one. And frankly, court systems need to understand this. But again, a lot of the judges are narcissists themselves and they tend to side with the abuser, male or female doesn’t matter. You know, the judge can be male or female, the abuser can be male or female, and that judge if they’re narcissistic, will side with the other narcissist Guaran frickin tee, it takes the bank earn interest on it.

So anyway, there is that couple of more articles I wanted to get through magic thinking. Okay, so let’s talk about really quickly magic thinking. So magic thinking is what kids do. Magic thinking is where you pull the blanket up. And you say, if I can’t see the monster, the monster can’t see me when in reality, obviously, if there was a monster, they could see you. So that’s kind of what kids do. And kids. The stranger the situation is, the more kids try to come up with a reason why things are happening. So if they don’t have enough information to fill in the blanks, they will inevitably make it about themselves. They’ll make it that somehow it’s their fault that the divorce is happening, or it’s their fault that you guys are arguing or whatever. This is, again, why really important, get a good trauma therapist that can help that child through that magic thinking and understanding. No, it’s not their fault. No, it’s nothing they said or did no, it’s you know, whatever. So there is that okay.

Subtle characteristics, and this is on Psych Center Central. Some characteristics of a pathological liar and then I want to get to questions. So the other thing that the other weird thinking that they have is they’re pathological liars. They absolutely some of them are so far down the line that they are absolutely dark triads. They’re psychopathic, sociopathic. Narcissist and control freak Machievellian. And they lie as a sport. It gives them it gets the rocks off. Basically, they enjoy lying. They want to see if they can get away with it. And sometimes they will lie about things that they really don’t need to lie about. It’s just a habit, and it’s impulsive. And that is the one thing that all of these personality disorders all have in common is the impulsivity. So pathological lying usually they have a personality disorder either antisocial, borderline or narcissistic. They have conduct disorder, oppositional defiance disorder or ADHD in some cases not always but usually combined with a personality disorder. They have personality traits of narcissism selfishness, abusive attitude, obsessive, controlling, compulsive, impulsivity, aggressiveness jealous, manipulative, deceptive, socially awkward, low self-esteem temperamental and anger. Pathological liars will always study you. They were always looking for what what’s there in? They lack empathy. Normal people feel guilty and are relieved when you change the subject or are normal people feel guilty and are relieved when you change the topic or stop asking questions. They don’t they don’t they revel in their lies and they just keep building bigger and bigger and bigger ones and they don’t care if they get caught. I’m all liars do not do the common things you think liars that some of them could look you straight in the eye and lie that a lot of them can look you straight in the eye and lie. The more psychopathic they are the more they can do that. The most sneaky liars are manipulative pathological liars exhibit strange behaviors they don’t feel remorse.

Kris Godinez  31:22

They don’t they can be cool as a cucumber is just creepy. creepy, creepy, creepy. creepy, creepy. So anyway, that is. That is some of the things you need to be aware of some of the weird thinking that narcissists abusers, etc. Have so Um, okay, let’s dive into the questions. Okay, I’m going to need my glasses. I think unless I can make this bigger. Can I make this bigger? Please make this bigger? Oh, there we go.

Do narcs make up stuff in their head? And then believe it? Absolutely. My narcissist would tell stories of things she said happened. But none of it was true. Yes. So, remember, part of the criteria of being an narcissistically disordered is that you have you claim to have all of these things that have happened to you. You claim to have academic achievements, you’ve never went to that college, you claim to have military service. That’s one of the ones that they for some reason really focus on, you know, militaries, or I had military service. And it turns out, they never had military service. Yes, they will make up outrageous stories and claim that they have done these amazing things or done these adventurous things or whatever. And they haven’t. And it’s because it’s part of their story, and they believe it. Now, do they know that they’re lying? Yes, on some level, I think they do. But they don’t care. And I think that’s what really trips everybody up is that we all assume that everyone is going to have a conscience, and everyone is going to be like, Oh, that’s stupid. Why did I lie about that? And now, but they don’t they don’t have a conscience. They don’t care. They get off on the bigger the lie the more their ego loves it. The more people that believe it the big the more their ego loves it again, it feeds the bear, it feeds the bear. And yeah, they convinced themselves that it’s true. It’s like I remember watching an interview one time with an actress. This was years ago. And she said something, and it was so blatantly obviously not true. And there was a little bit of a tell on her face. You know, it was like she made this look. And you knew that she knew that what she had just said was BS, but she couldn’t own up to it. And it was it was interesting. This is why forensic psychology just fascinates me infinitely, because yeah, they do have tells. Some of them have tells that the more psychopathic they are, they don’t, but will they do but harder to catch. So um, yeah. You know, it’s like they know it, but they can’t again, they can’t own it. They can’t take responsibility for it. They can’t, you know, whatever. So yeah, yeah, they do that. Absolutely.

Do narcissists have a higher risk of dementia? Oh, that’s a good question. My late narcissist, Mom behaved like a loon in her old age and more bizarre than when she was younger. Well, okay. If she was having early onset Alzheimer’s, that’s going to cause really bizarre behavior. So, remember, dementia, Alzheimer’s and narcissism. Totally separate. The dementia causes personality changes, that’s for damn sure. And it’s really awful to watch somebody with dementia, even an abuser because it’s like do they deserve it. Well, karmatically maybe. But when somebody’s got dementia, that person is disappearing day by day and Usually what ends up happening a lot of times with Alzheimer’s especially, is the further along the dementia progresses, the angrier they get. And sometimes they become violent. And it’s so sad, especially when you have somebody that’s never been violent, never been nasty, and the dementia is just destroying their brain and they become violent and nasty and things like that. And that’s just not who they are. So, do Are they more likely to get it? I don’t know. I have not read any studies on that. I cannot tell you what the statistics are. Do a lot of narcissists end up in old age homes. Yeah, they do. Because nobody’s willing to put up with it. You know what I’m saying? Okay, hold on. So, I don’t know the statistics on that. I do know that dementia in and of itself, does create personality changes, and it has it may or may not have anything to do with any personality disorders and person has, like I said, perfectly kind people with Alzheimer’s, as the disease progresses get violent and angry and abusive, and you know, everything else and it’s just not them. It’s because their brain has been destroyed. So, I don’t know. So, I would suggest if you are interested in finding that answer, maybe look online.

Kris Godinez  36:20

I would say something like, is there a correlation? Correlation does not necessarily mean causation. But is there a link between Alzheimer’s and personality disorders? Look it up. You know, that would be the best way to find that answers. I don’t have it right now. I could I’ll look it up and I’ll try to answer it later in the week, but I don’t know. Okay, where are we? Okay.

Do narcs face spate…… do narcs fake spiritualism? Absolutely. My narc pretended to be very spiritual, but it was for show and to get attention. Yes, she was also very superstitious, okay. That’s interesting, because that’s part of magic thinking. Okay, so narcissists, there’s four types of narcissism, right? So there is no there’s more. Actually, there’s four types. Yeah. Okay. So, there’s the overt narcissists, which are the Look at me, look at me. Look at me. I’m perfect. You know, every one around me has to be perfect. I’m this I’m that I’m great. Blah, blah. Covert, excuse me. Covert, which is the victim, victim, victim? Why is this always happening to me? Martyr you never write, you never call that kind of thing. That’s covert. They’re sneaky. They’re not very nice. Somatic is physical. So they’re very much into their physical appearance. Everything has to be perfect hair has to be perfect body has to be perfect. You know, everything has to be perfect. And then there’s the cult leaders. Those are the communal narcissists. So the communal narcissists love to pretend that they’re spiritual. It’s so they, they’re the gurus. So you want to watch out for anybody that’s a guru, anybody that claims to have all the answers, you know, because nobody’s got all the answers. If we had all the answers, would we be here? Well, maybe I do like the surfing here on this planet. It’s pretty cool. But the point being is, is that you know, they want to gather groupies to them for lack of a better word. And they present themselves as this guru all knowing, all seeing I have the answers, give me all your money, you know, that kind of thing that like a cult leader. And yes, they do pretend to be spiritual, they absolutely do. But if you watch their behavior, it’s anything but so truly spiritual people don’t need to show to the world that they’re spiritual, because you just know it. Because they conduct themselves in a manner that is spiritual. So, narcissists don’t. So yeah, they will, they will claim to be spiritual. They do it to get attention. superstition is a part of magic thinking. So, it’s kind of like knocking on wood, you know, knock on wood. You know, hopefully everything goes well, you know, that kind of thing. That’s a superstition. It’s a magic thinking kind of thing. It’s a way for very anxious people to try to gain some modicum of control over the situation, you know, but taken to an extreme superstition is also a way to inflict fear on people. So, if you think of the cult leaders, you know, they will say things like, Well, if you don’t do exactly what I want, you know, this horrible event is going to happen to you. And that’s a way of instilling fear. It’s a superstition, kind of in a way because they’re blaming it on a higher power, when in fact it’s them. So, yeah, that is a very common thing that’s a communal narcissist basically is somebody who claims to be spiritual, spiritual, spiritual, and yet, their every day to day life is anything. But because they’re treating people poorly and they’re using people and they’re abusive. And if that’s not spiritual, you know, they can say they’re struggling or my dad did that, again, personal experience, my dad was really crazy, I think is the best way to put it. But he went to church literally six days a week, and was constantly giving money to the churches and constantly wanting to lead the Bible studies and things like that. And he was telling everybody how, you know, they needed to follow him. And I’m just like, Oh, my God, no, we need to get away from you, dude. So um, yeah, they are, they gravitate very much to either organized religion, alternative religion, you know things, mysticism metaphysical, you know, things, and then yet they claim to know everything.

Kris Godinez  41:05

And nobody knows everything. And it’s just scary how they convince people and people want to believe that they do know everything. And they don’t, they don’t, especially when they start asking you to give them all your money and all your worldly possessions like, Oh, really well, what do you need with them? So yeah, so there is that? Yes, that is a very common thing for them to do and it is attention, and it is you know, it’s a way to control and manipulate.

Hi, Chris, what is the recipe for a healthy relationship between two empaths who have been hurt in past relationships with narcissists and have some wounds still burning? Okay, get with a good trauma therapist, I kid you not. So, if there’s still stuff from your past, get with a good trauma therapist, both for you individual therapy, individual therapy and if there’s stuff that’s coming up because of the relationship couples therapy with three different counselors, so they’re going to have their own counselor for the individual, you’re going to have your own counselor for the individual and we all are going to get one for the couples counseling together. Things to work on would be self-esteem. Self-esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, you are a badass by Jen Sincero. Boundaries. The disease to please Harriet breaker anything by pm melody. Codependent no more beyond codependent no more by Melanie Beatty. So a book for relationship communication issues would be fighting for your marriage by Markman and others that Markman was the only one I can remember so. And also, the inner child workbook, either by Katherine Taylor, if that one’s too outdated, get the one by Lucia Cappachione So, yeah, you’re going to want to start working through these wounds. And if stuff is coming up in relationship, you’re definitely want to get a couple’s counselor, but you want to start individual first, so that you can kind of get rockin and rollin on the stuff that’s coming up. And then when you get with a couples counselor, you’re going to be able to articulate Hey, we realized, because of my past, because of their past work, we’re poking each other’s wounds, and it’s kind of coming up, can you help us? So that that will help your therapist, your couples therapist immensely. All right. So let’s see. Um, so yeah, so basically, open, honest communication, be very aware of when things do get triggered, you want to let your partner know, Wow, that really triggered me. And here’s why this is what happened when I got triggered as a kid, or when I got harmed as a kid. And wow, that’s really weird that that popped up, let’s work on it, let me work on it, you know, let’s make sure we’re not triggering each other. So, you know, here’s a really good indication and this has come up recently was several of my clients is that they’re with a partner, they let the partner know that a certain behavior is triggering, triggering, and yet, the partner would continue to do it red flag on the play. So once somebody has told you, hey, this triggers me don’t keep doing it, you know, be aware, be mind full. Now, that also does not mean that the other partner gets to control by saying everything is a trigger, I’ve seen that happen as well. So um, so you’ve got to be mindful. And you know, if somebody’s doing that, that’s also a red flag. So, you got to be mindful, and you’ve got to be working on your own stuff, and then work on the stuff together as a couple. So, communication is going to be key respect is going to be absolutely mandatory. And talking things through talking things through remember, communication is used for clarification. It’s, it’s when you have to talk to somebody about something don’t think of it as a confrontation, think of it as clarification. So, there is that Oh, oops, I clicked on the wrong thing. There we go.

Kris Godinez  44:59

About identity occasion What if the narc influenced daughter is more than 20 years old? Not a kid? Should the normal parent go to a counselor together? Or what would you advise? Well, if the adult child is willing to go to a counselor with you, and it is a counselor that is absolutely well versed in this situation, the identifying with the aggressor and damming the other parent, the whole thing. And if the adult child is understanding that this is with the intention of reunifying, you two as a healthy parent daughter situation, then yeah, go to a good couple or a couple of No, not couples, family therapist that is well versed in parental alienation, absolutely, they have to understand what you’re dealing with now realize, the adult child may or may not be open to it. So, because remember, now you’re dealing with their ego, and all of the bad behavior that that abusive parent modeled for them. And, again, when bringing up all of this stuff, to work on the relationship with the adult child, there’s going to be a lot of inner turmoil for that child, because all of the things that that parents said are true. You’re either showing them or telling them and it’s not, it’s going to create cognitive dissonance, which is why you need a damn good therapist to help that kid, work through that and stick with the therapy so that the relationship can be repaired. So, there’s a lot going on, there’s a lot going on. So yeah, you make sure you’re with a good therapist and make sure that the other parent is not involved. You tell that kid it’s like this is between you and me, this is for us to repair our relationship. So please don’t you know, please, let’s keep what’s going on in the therapy room in the therapy room. See how it goes, you know, doesn’t work sometimes. Absolutely. Sometimes, as kids get older, they recognize ooh, this isn’t this doesn’t feel right, this isn’t right, I’ve missed out on all these years with my other parent. And then they want to get to know them better. And then sometimes they’ve got the big ego because that’s what they were raised with. And that’s what they were conditioned with. And it’s really hard for them to accept incoming information that does not gel with what the abuser has been telling them. So, does it always work? No. But it can so in my opinion, why not? You know, give it a shot. Do what you can. Okay, let’s see. Um,


What do narcissists fear the most? Oh, my God, being found out being called out for being the incompetent POS is that they are. They fear losing power and control. Absolutely. Somebody that they cannot control. They are incredibly threatened by incredibly and they want to destroy them. Because that that is threatening to them because they can’t understand somebody who’s not afraid of them. They don’t get it. So they’re nasty, they’re snarky, they’re abusive. They’re, you know, whatever. They fear losing power and control. They absolutely do. They fear being alone. If they’re alone, they have nobody to abuse. They’re in an echo chamber of their own head. And if you can imagine how nasty they were to you imagine what’s going on in their head 24/7 with nobody to take it out on that, to me is karma. That’s why when they end up in the in the care facilities, I really don’t have much sympathy for them. Because they’re getting exactly what they deserve. So, nobody to boss around nobody to be mean to you know, they might try it with the staff will throw them out which good for the staff. So yeah, it’s Yeah, so there is there is that they’re afraid of being found out. They’re afraid of not having anybody to boss around. Okay.

Is there any punishment on the face of this earth that would feel like a punishment to a psychopathic criminal? Given that they feel no remorse or emotions? I would have to say no, seriously, I would have to say no, um, you know, there’s been times when they’ve tried isolation, they’ve tried, you know, Alcatraz was supposed to be taking everything away from them so that they would do penance. So that’s penitentiaries are based on doing penance. That’s what it’s a penitentiary. You’re supposed to go there and do penance. But and they would take everything away from you. You couldn’t talk you couldn’t sing. You couldn’t do this. You couldn’t do that. There was no, you know, and it was never enough.

Kris Godinez  49:48

Some of them reoffended, as soon as they got out. Some of them killed people in prison, some of them I don’t think there is, because you’re right. They don’t feel they don’t care. It’s like what build Do is this weird… You take something away from them and they’ll just smirk and go, I didn’t want it anyway. Okay, you know, so no, I don’t think there is I really I really, honestly, they’re come up, it’s gonna come in the next lifetime. And that’s just my personal belief because they’re not going to get it while they’re here on this planet. They’re not. Because in order to get it, you have to have an actual conscience. You have to have a sense of remorse or guilt or not guilt, like they give us guilt but like, Ooh, that was the wrong thing to do. I need to make amends. I need to fix it, that kind of thing. And they don’t have that they don’t care. They really truly the more the ewwww, the really psychopathic ones are truly frightening. Because they just they don’t care. Okay, like that creep in Texas that broke out, harmed, killed the guard, I think harmed the guard, but then robbed a family and killed all five family members just to get a truck. Why not just take the truck? Yeah, so no remorse? No, no concern. No care, they’ll reoffend. Yeah, so and I honestly think that they’ll not figure it out this lifetime. Unfortunately, I wish they would. I wish there was an enlightenment stick big enough to whack them over the head. So they go, Oh, I shouldn’t do that. You know. But for some of them, I think redemption is not going to be found here. I think it’s going to take a higher power. And that’s just my opinion. So, but psychologically speaking, yeah, there are some of them that absolutely there’s no punishment that would ever make a dent in them not reoffending. So yeah, there it is. All right. Let’s see if we have any more questions. Okay.

What to do if the narc in laws are leaving notes? Oh, and other things in the mailbox after going no contact with your kids also sending love bombing text to the husband who is going through depression from the abuse. Wow. Okay. Well really quickly because this is I think going to be our last question. So what you’re going to do is you’re going to take those notes and burn you’re going to get with a good trauma therapist. For both you and your husband. I think couples therapy is probably in order with somebody who understands narcissistic in laws Absa freakin lutely. Get C PTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker, absolutely. Start working it he needs to start working it or she needs to start working at whoever the spouse is. And talking about going no contact? Absolutely, excuse me, they are going to try to contact the kids. They’re going to try to text them they’re going to try to send you know messages etc. You’re going to have to draw a really strong boundary and just be like, you know, okay, guys, this is there’s a reason we’re no contact. And here it is, you know, depends on how old they are. The older the kids, they’ll understand it, the younger the kids, you’ll have to walk a real fine line with that. But you want to be careful of contact with an abuser because they’ll try to turn the kids against you. So, get with a good trauma therapist get with a good trauma therapist and couples and individual for both. So again, individual, couples, possibly family if it’s not for the abusers, but for the kids in us so they’re that Alright kids have a great week. Drink plenty of water. It’s supposed to be 114 again, today you’re in Phoenix. Yay. Um, and that’s it. All right. I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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