Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  00:27

Okay, Suzanna Quintana at Suzanna Quintana.com You’re still that girl She is amazeballs we’re putting on hold doing the seminar because of the stupid COVID. Throat punch to the COVID virus. Oh my god. So, um yeah, so we’re putting that on hold but that is in the works at some point when we can actually get back together and not die so that would be good. Okay, also my book. “What’s Wrong with Your Dad” which is about my journey growing up with an alcoholic opiate addicted dad whoo! That was fun. And then this book, my other book, “You Can Lead a Horse to Water, But You Can’t Make ‘Em Cha Cha” is all about why some people get into abusive relationships were able to get out of it and other people get into abusive relationships and they just stay there. So that’s that. Also Shahida’s book, love, love, love! Recommend this to everyone and their dog so that is “The Highly Sensitive Person’s Guide to Dealing with Toxic People”. Love it! She’s amazing! I love her posts! You’ll see me post a lot of her posts because she’s amazing Kim Saeed is amazing! There’s so many helpful, amazing people out there so you know if I’m not the one for you there’s other people out there that you might relate to more so um, yeah so there’s there’s a lot of really good people out on the internet so um, and if you’re going through a divorce because we’re going to be talking about this today “Splitting” by Bill Edie and Randy Krieger. Love this book. This basically tells you everything that a disordered person is going to do in the middle of a divorce which is so funny because recently I had a client tell me “How in the world did you know they were going to do this?” and I’m like I’ve been doing this for 14 years you know, I study behavior I understand how these people and I use the term loosely think, you know, they’re they’re crazy and they’re vindictive. So, anyway, I think that was it. Okay, so any other announcements? I think I’m going to put on hold the San Diego one um, I was talking to a friend of mine that was willing to host it and then she contacted me and was like you know COVID and I’m like yeah, I totally am right there with you girl, right there with you so I think we’re gonna put on hold San Diego but when we can do San Diego we will and Fairbanks I’m just going to be at anyway so I’ll just let you know where I am and if you guys want to come up and see me when I’m up there you’re more than welcome. So, I’m because I’m taking a family vacation I just I want to I want to see the Northern Lights. I’ve never seen the Northern Lights. I think it’s important to do bucket lists. So that’s on my bucket list. So anyway, there’s that Okay, let’s dive into playing keep away in the middle of a divorce. So, Narcissus and malignant borderlines okay I’m talking malignant I’m not talking traits of I’m talking full blown into the spectrum cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, vindictive witch Queen sadistic you know it dark triad for the for the narcissist they are all about the win they do not care about the kids and I cannot stress this enough. So when I’m working with somebody that is going through a high conflict divorce that’s what these things are called high conflict divorce. Is that we I tell them you’ve got to read “Splitting” Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Here it is “Splitting” Bill Eddie, Randy Krieger gotta read it because it goes through everything that these creatures will use to harm or hurt or bankrupt you or do whatever. So, one of the things that narcissists do, especially Narcissus, borderlines can do it too, but especially Narcissus. And it doesn’t doesn’t matter what gender they are, doesn’t matter, male or female, doesn’t matter. If they’re narcissistic. They do the parental alienation and it, it can look like several different things. So

Kris Godinez  04:51

when a couple splits and there are children involved, it’s so weird. It goes like one extreme or the other. So one extreme is That they just don’t care. And they’re happy to be rid of the kids because they view them as a burden. And they have started a second family and they’re all enthralled with that new source. And they’ve, you know, either gotten them pregnant or they are pregnant and they are happy to leave behind the other family. That’s kind of what happened to my sister who lives in Santa Barbara because she was my dad’s first wife’s daughter. And so when he got together with my mom, it was like, they didn’t exist, you know, and like I said, I hadn’t hadn’t had a relationship with her until recently. And man, I just I frickin love her. It’s so funny. She, you know, we’re so much like, I’m just like, Oh, man that must have driven dad crazy, because I know he didn’t like me. So now. It’s like,  they do they like start a second family and it’s like the first family never existed seriously, they just erased them. They’re just they’re gone. Poof, gone. Nothing to do with them don’t want anything to do with them. Blah, blah, blah. That’s what you hope happens. So unfortunately, in situations like that, what I see happening is disordered dysfunctional family and friends going, Gasp! But they need to have their mother or their father who has abandoned them. And you need to make them take 50/50 or you need to have them in your Okay, dear Lord, people take a deep breath. Come on, take a deep breath, do it with me to let it out. Listen to me. Now, believe me later. If this so called “parent” bunny ears has abandoned their children.

Kris Godinez  06:42

They don’t need to be in their life, they have literally shown you what they are. And I’ll say what not Who? What are they they’ve abandoned their kids, they’ve neglected their kids, they have shown you what those kids mean. to them. A healthy normal parent would want to be with their children would never abandon their children, you know, not unless they absolutely had to, because of some sort of weird financial or weird situation or jail or you know, whatever. But even at that they stay in touch with the kids. Okay. So when somebody abandons like, abandons them completely at that’s showing you who they are, do not tell that parent the same one that they have to have contact with no, take advantage. I’m not kidding you. And I write about this in my fourth book. So in my fourth book, I talked about a case where the parent just not interested don’t want anything to do with them walked away, and I told the other client I said, Get that divorce settled now, get the custody agreement settled now, because I can guarantee you as soon as the shiny comes off of the new relationship, as soon as that relationship starts going south, she or he is going to want to have that kid to be a deflection or a scapegoat or a shield, I see them do that as well. So like things are not going well with the new family. So they use their kid from a former marriage as a shield between them and the new source of supply. And a lot of times they marry minor narcissist, or they marry borderlines. And it’s hell for those kids. Hell, hell, hell on wheels. So you know, if the mother or father has abandoned the child, do not encourage them to create a relationship. kids do not listen to me now believe me later, kids do not need to have a relationship with the parent, if the parent is abusive or neglectful, let me say that again. kids do not need to have a relationship with the parent, if the parent is neglectful, or abusive. Now, here’s the big thing. You’ve got to have proof of that. Okay, you can’t just march into a court and be like, well, they’re this this this, this and this and I don’t want them to see the kid you got to like let’s say that they are wanting some custody or whatever, but there’s abuse going on. That’s when you want to psych eval done. That’s when you want eyes on this. This is why you need to have the kids in therapy so let’s talk about all of this dear Lord, there’s so much you know what I need to do. I need to get a lawyer on here. I really do because it would be so nice to have a lawyer sitting here going Yes, do this Yes. Do that. You know, that would be very helpful. So I’m trying because I read a book last week. I think I told you about it. She talks all about high conflict divorces or divorces in general totally demystified it. I love her. She’s apparently a local and I’m like, Girl, we’re neighbors. Come on over. Let’s do a show. Come on. So I’m hoping her publicist will get back to me and we’ll be able to do a show on that and we can ask her all these questions and you can ask her all these questions and that would be just frickin awesome. Anyway, sorry to much caffeine. Where was I? Okay, so, best case scenario they abdicate and They’re like, nope, done, right? And that’s great, because then you can be like, Okay, well, they only want to see the child once a month. And that was the case in this case is that the ex only wanted to see the kid once a month. And every time the kid went over there, came back and was miserable. Because the parent was favoring the new family and made it quite obvious that he was the ugly, you know, step mule of the family seriously, you know, the scapegoat, the the whole thing. So Ah, God, it’s terrible what they do to these kids, so they treat them like, they’re not even really a part of the family, they treat them like they’re mules, like they tell them to do all the work clean this clean, Cinderella kind of thing. Um, yeah, they treat the kids horribly, they don’t, and especially if they have an issue, like a daddy issue or a mommy issue. And that kid is that particular gender, oh, my God, they will take it out on the kid, well, you’re just like your father, you’re just like your mother, you’re just, you know, oh, horrible. And here’s this poor little six year old going, what the heck just happened. It’s not fair. It’s not fair. So if you know that they have abandoned, they’re not interested, good, run with it, get that Custody Agreement done so that you can protect your child, because I can guarantee you as soon as the shine comes off of the new relationship, they’re gonna start wanting more time with the kid because they need a scapegoat, they need a shield, they need somebody to intercept. So there is that, okay? Now parental alienation, the ways it looks okay. They will start with the smear campaign. And they will and it starts during the divorce. So usually, in high conflict divorces, they will start with the smear campaign, they’ll try to say that you’re the crazy one, they’re going to, you know, want more than 5050. The reason they want more than 5050, let me just explain this to you, they don’t want more than 5050 because they love that kid so much. Let me just disabuse you of that, that fantasy right there. They want more than 5050. So they don’t have to pay child support they do. Now in Arizona, my understanding of it is is if it’s 5050, you don’t have to pay child support. But in some cases, it has to be more than 5050. Because every state is different. It has to be more than 5050 in order to not pay child support. So a lot of times they’ll demand more time with the kid even though they don’t care about the kid, just so that they don’t have to pay child support, which to me is like the worst reason in the world. So um, so you need a good attorney. So they will start the smear campaign early. They will start working on the kids. Okay, the kids are used as pawns. The kids are used as an emotional manipulation. They’re used as messengers. They’re used as

Kris Godinez  12:53

How can I explain that? It’s like if they can turn the kid against you, it’s a win for them in their crazy, completely rabid mind seriously. So it’s a win for them if they can get the kid to turn against you. Okay. So what they do is they start a smear campaign, they’ll start talking badly about you in front of the kids. Okay? Now kids are not stupid. They’re not. They’re a little sponges. They’re watching what’s happening the whole time. And they’ve been watching what was happening prior to the divorce as well. So if they saw the abuser come after you, and you stood up to them, and then they came after you harder they’ve learned up, I can’t stand up to Mom or Dad, it’s not safe. Okay. So this is why a lot of times you will find children if they do not have a good therapist, helping them navigate through this insanity of the adult world, that the kids will start siding with the abuser in a maladaptive attempt to stay safe. Let me say that again. Kids have been watching what’s been going on. If they see that the abuser gets more abusive if you stand up to them. Or if you say something nice about mom or dad. They kids learn quickly. Oh, I can’t stand up to them. I can’t, you know, defend Mom or Dad, I need to I need to side with them. I need to be on their side so that they don’t come after me. That happens all the time. And it’s heartbreaking. heart breaking. The other thing that abusers will do is they will start working on the kids early. Like early like okay, the divorce has happened. everything settled. Everything is a competition with the abuser, everything. Everything literally is a competition with the abuser. So let’s say you’ve done the work. You’ve done your workbooks, you’ve you’ve been doing the mirror work, you’ve got a good solid ground, you’ve been helping the kids with their self esteem and their boundaries. And you know they’re doing okay, you start dating, you get to be with somebody and it looks like it’s serious. Well, that’s going to drive the abuser absolutely insane if they have not found a supply. So what I’ve also seen is that they will go get a mail order bride, if they’re male, if they’re in a male abuser, they’ll go get a mail order bride or they will just go out and grab the first guy that they can get their hands on. Because it’s an it’s a, it’s a competition, they have to be first they have to get married first, they have to do everything first. Usually, when that happens if they are involved with another abuser, like a minor narcissist or a borderline, again, the drama triangle, so the drama triangle is the villain, the victim and the hero, okay. So they will set up a drama triangle with you, you are always going to be the villain, the kids are going to be the victim or the new spouse is going to be the victim and they are the hero. So and a lot of times I see these new spouses who are also disordered, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, well, you need to do this, and you need to do that and you know, poking the, the abuser to continue to abuse. It’s insane. It really is insane. So um, so I’ve seen that happen. So then then they start with the bribing. So they will start bribing the kids, they will, oh, I’m the Disneyland mom or dad, or, Oh, you don’t have any rules over here. I won’t make you do homework, I won’t make you, you know, do chores, I won’t make you blah, blah, blah. So the kids, kids being kids, obviously are going to be like, Oh, well, I don’t have to do homework. I don’t have to go to school. I don’t have to do this. I don’t have to do that. So they’ll want to be over there. Because the abuser and the new source, if they’re an abuser, as well, is lying to them and setting them up. It’s a honey trap. It’s a honey trap. So as soon as they get the kids to believe this, oh, they won’t have to do anything. And the kids move over there. Everything changes. Suddenly, the kids are now responsible for all of the housework. They’re getting screamed at if their grades are not good. They’re you know, it’s just it’s crazy. It’s crazy. So, in one case, that’s exactly what happened. The abusive parent started telling the very young kid they started at like age 10 I think so the divorce happened a couple of years prior to that the kid was about 10 the parents started doing the whole Oh, well, if you come live over here, there won’t be any rules. Oh, if you come live over here, there won’t be you won’t have to do any chores. Oh, if you come live over here, it’ll be just sunshine roses and unicorn farts. You know, and when the kid turned, I think it was 12. They started telling them. Well, you know, you can tell the judge that you want to come live with us.

Kris Godinez  17:45

Really? So yeah. Remember abusers, unfortunately, are not stupid. Well, they are but they’re not that they are. And they will research the laws research psychology try to use both against the target of abuse, which is why you got to stay one step ahead of them. So yeah, they’ll start telling the kid Oh, well, you know, you can tell the judge that you want to come. So in Arizona, when you’re 14, probably younger, but when you’re 14 for sure, the judge is probably going to listen to the kid and so the abuser starts working on that. So and then they smear, they smear, they smear and they get their family to smear. They do the smear campaign, they you know, oh, mommy or daddy is this horrible person and we don’t want you around. And so they start smearing What does that do to a kid? Well, the kid is 50% both people so you start telling a child that they are horrible, awful, terrible bad, maybe not them, but they’re saying that about your parent who you are 50% of, and then the kid because they are egocentric. So let’s talk about this. Kids are egocentric, not like a narcissist, okay? Kids are ego centric, in that they don’t have the cognitive ability to understand all of the manipulation, they may see some of it, but they’re not able to understand all of it. And so when a parent starts bad mouthing another parent, the kid immediately and automatically goes, they must think I’m horrible, too. Maybe not consciously, but subconsciously, for sure. For sure. So that’s why I keep telling people do not bad mouth, your ex in front of the other child. Can you be truthful? Well, mommy or daddy has got some issues. Yeah, you can say that. That’s fine, because that’s true. But you don’t want to be like, oh, they’re such an A hole or Oh, they’re just such a, you know, biotch or whatever. You don’t want to be doing that you don’t you know, you can call out the behavior as abnormal. But you don’t want to be calling names. You don’t want to be putting them down necessarily. You can just be truthful. Well, mommy or daddy has got a lot of issues that need to be worked on. You’re not wrong, you know, because kids are not stupid. Remember, when they come back from the disordered parent, they act out Why? Because you’re the safer target. It’s not safe for them to act out. With the abuser because the abuser will punish them. So they know that they’re not going to get beaten, yelled at called names, etc. If they come home and act out, you do need to nip that behavior in the bud to be sure. But you want to stop the behavior and let them know Nope, this is not okay. So with parental alienation, the other parent’s goal is to drive a wedge in between you and your kids. And they will lie, they will cheat, they will steal they will lie to the court they’ll lie to the psych eval person, they’ll lie, if their lips are moving. They’re lying. And those kids are going to suffer. So. So then what happens is, is if they convince the kid Oh, come over here, and it’s great. And then the kid tells the judge, I want to go live with dad. You know, the kid is pretty much stuck over there. Especially if you have a judge that is not well versed in high conflict divorces or is a narcissist themselves. Some judges allow people to come back once a year to change parental stuff. Other judges are like, nope, you every two years. By the time they’re 14, it’s like, okay, gosh, you’re gonna make them wait until they’re 16 Holy cow, you know how much damage is gonna happen? So um, yeah, so parental alienation playing keep away with a kid is horrific. Now. Divorce on kids is hard. Divorce, huh. 90% of divorces, statistically speaking, do not end up in the court. Most of them are able to be settled outside of court, because they’re able to just split things down the middle, figure out the 5050 custody. There’s no agenda, and it’s done. Okay. It’s the 10% that end up in court, that are the really nasty ones, which is why I am flummoxed as to why the the family court system doesn’t train their judges in high conflict divorces in mental health stuff, they have to, you can’t just, you know, lalalala I don’t see the pink elephant taking crap in the corner of the courtroom. You can’t do that guys, no more you can’t. You know, in the past. That’s how things were run, look where it’s gotten us in a mess if you want my personal opinion. So if these court cases that go in and are high conflict, some of the judges are narcissistic themselves. Some of them are just old and tired, and they just want you off their docket, which really sucks. So you have to be the best advocate for your children. You cannot be afraid of reporting things if things are happening. So for example,

Kris Godinez  22:46

in one case, there was this person, this abuser, that was doing the whole parental alienation. And I told the client that I said, Look, this person is setting you up, they are setting the kids up for a honey trap. They’re gonna you know, they’re telling them now at age 10, that Okay, yeah, come over here. You won’t have any chores. Are the kids in therapy? Well, we stopped therapy. Oh, God, why? Well, everything was fine. Okay, that’s great. That’s great that everything was fine. Everything is not fine. This person is setting them up, they need a safe outlet, get them back into therapy, get them back into therapy. And thankfully, they’d had a clause in their in their divorce case that they could send the kids to therapy and that the other one could not interfere. The thing that I see happening is a lot of abusers will stop the children from therapy. They’ll stop it, they’ll just point blank, I’m not paying for this. You know, this isn’t in the court ruling. I’m not doing it. You can’t make me. And the reason why is because they don’t want a set of eyes on it that can document what’s going on. Now. A lot of counselors are really pissing me right the Bleep off because I’ve heard some of them say, I won’t go to court. Okay, don’t go to court. But release your records so that the attorneys and the judge have a snapshot of what is going on in this family, you are failing your clients, if you don’t do everything you can to protect those children because those children have no rights. Really, when you think about it, you know, they don’t have enough money to hire an attorney of their own. They don’t have a right to say anything until their mid teenagers which to me is just mind boggling. You know, so I’m a little passionate about this. So when you talk to a therapist that you are going to have work with your children, if they don’t want to testify in court because a lot of them had it drilled into their heads. Oh no. Oh, you can’t do that. You’re not an expert. Well, no, you’re not an expert witness because you have to be a PhD level in state of Arizona to be an expert witness. But you can testify to what What’s in your notes? It’s not that hard. Don’t get me started. And I talked about that in the next book that’s coming out, hopefully soon about becoming a therapist. So, um, okay, how are we doing on time? Sorry, went on a rant. Okay? So parental alienation harms those kids to the core, because it takes away the good parent, and it leaves them with the crazy parent. And sometimes they side with the crazy parent in a maladaptive attempt to not get punished. Okay. And then, as adults, let’s talk about adult children. So what happens to kids as adults? They feel conflicted. They do, because what do abusers use to control fear, obligation and guilt. So what they’ll do with the older children is Oh, well, if you know, you see your mom, you’re betraying me. Really? They do that. Yeah. And or, oh, well, you know, I’ll be all alone. And it’s all your fault, or I can’t retire because of you or some other total just Damn, these people piss me off. So they will use fear, obligation and guilt on the older children to try to continue to manipulate and control keep them away from the other parent, etc, etc, etc. It is a lifelong thing. They don’t stop. They’re like the damn Terminator. So, really quickly, before we dive into questions, what do kids need when somebody is playing a game of keep away? Okay, first of all, get them into therapy. I swear to God and all the totally get them into therapy, get them into play therapy, get them into sandtray therapy, get them into something that’s going to help them process this turmoil and upheaval that’s going on around them. Secondly, never ever, ever involve your kids in adult matters. I have seen abusers turn the kids into their own little therapists. Oh, that is so damaging. Oh, that is so damaging. So they will sit there and they will tell the kids TMI. Okay, about mom and dad’s relationship or about their new love interest and how great the sex is. Yeah, I

Kris Godinez  27:14

don’t Mm hmm. Yeah, they do stuff like that. So you know, they turn the kids into their own therapist or their own sounding board or whatever a typical narcissist and they don’t give a thought to what that’s doing to the kid that’s too much information for a child the child cognitively guys kids can’t cope with adult stuff they’re not miniature adults but I’ll tell you something every single narcissist to a tee treats their child as if they are miniature adults well you should know better you should do it you should you should you should you should which is shoulding all over your kid Hello. You know it’s Carl Rogers so you know they do this thing about well you should know better you should know better well cognitively they can’t they don’t have the cognitive ability to process all of this emotional manure that you are shoveling all over them. They don’t so this is why the kids really truly Honest to God Hand to heart Listen to me now. Get a therapist for the kids get a santry sandtray therapist for the kids play therapy for the kids if they are below the age of I don’t know 12 you know to help them process to help them work things out. One kid the one that was abandoned by the parent constantly did a sand tray thing where the parent was lost in the desert. Well okay, isn’t that interesting? Lost in the desert? Here we are in the desert the kids lost in the desert so yeah, or the kid that mom dad was lost in the desert The one who abandoned so yeah, the kid needs to process this stuff out okay? They don’t want to get emotionally constipated and shove all this stuff down and then end up on my couch years later. I’m trying to stop that from happening because I’d like to retire at some point. So yeah, so this is this is what happens is that the kids will still get stuck with all of this stuff, they won’t understand it, they won’t really thoroughly be able to process it. It will affect their self esteem. It will affect their ability to draw boundaries especially if they’ve got a narcissistic parent that is telling them no you can’t have boundaries. How dare you not jump or ask how high when I say jump How dare you? You know this that or the other thing? How dare you love your mother? How dare you love your father, you know, etc, etc, etc. Crazy, it’s gonna mess with them guys, it’s gonna mess with them. That’s why you need a therapist to help them deal with it. Do not bring adult issues to your kids. Okay? Yeah, when they’re older teenagers, you know, like 14 1516. If they ask questions, give them honest answers, but age appropriate age appropriate age appropriate. Okay, so it’s and even with the older children even with the adult children, you do not want to TMI them You do not want to give them overshare so really when I see we’re running out of time really what kids need really honest to god they need a healthy parent. If that other person is an abuser has abused you is toxic, is playing games is doing fear, obligation guilt, you don’t need to force them to be around your kid if they’re happy to give up time, let them let them document how much time they’re giving up with their kid and then you can go back and say, Hey, they’ve given up all this time I would like more custody, you know, so and this is don’t allow yourself to be influenced by other people who are telling you Oh, they need to be with the parent. No, they don’t if they are abusive, if they are toxic, if they are harmful, if they are hurtful, that kid does not need to be with that parent. They don’t period. So yeah, so there is that they need consistency more than anything. Children need consistency. So the other big mistake I see divorcing parents the healthy ones do is they feel guilty. Why? Well, because we’ve had an abuser telling us for days, weeks, months, years, possibly decades, you know that we’re bad we’re wrong or this or that bla bla bla and then when we get out of it we go Oh damn, why didn’t I leave sooner? Well, because you couldn’t because you didn’t have the tools or the skills to leave sooner you left when you could so stop the stop beating yourself up. So then out of guilt, they start being

Kris Godinez  31:45

permissive. What’s the word I’m looking for? So there’s three types of parenting there is authoritarian, which is what abusers do. If I say jump, you better ask how high that’s authoritarian. There’s authoritative which healthy parents do which is I’m the parent you’re going to do this because this is good for you and let’s just clean the room you know and then there’s permissive Oh no, you don’t have to clean the room. You don’t have to you know, it’s okay I feel guilty let me give you all this stuff because I feel guilty that’s not good either. So you know, either end of the spectrum is no bueno. You want to aim for the middle of the road? And remember, abusers never are in the middle of the road. They’re always at the end of the spectrum. Always. Because there is no middle of the road for them. So I’m okay. Where was I? So consistency, they need consistency with the same parent they need time that’s really all they want guys. They just want to spend time with you remember the five love languages? So there’s a gift giving there’s quality time there’s physical touch, there’s words of affirmation. Crap, I always forget the last one. Damn it. And a fifth one, I can’t remember it is what is child’s love language, how does your child know that they are loved what lets them know they are loved that is a conversation to have with them. You know, what helps you feel loved. You know, and for, for me, my love languages are words of affirmation, probably gift giving, and physical touch. Those are the top three. So um, you know, it’s that lets me know that I’m loved. And so you want to talk with your child, what helps them know that they are loved, do that, you know, quality, time, quality time doesn’t have to be, you know, super intense, heavy conversations, it can be sitting in watching a cool movie together, it can be going for a walk together, it can be whatever. So remember, the love languages do not just apply to romantic relationships, they reply they apply to the children as well what helps them feel loved, help them feel loved. Give them words of affirmation, give them positive quality time, you know, you don’t know so much have to give the gift giving but you know, it’s like do the stuff that’s going to help them know that they are loved. Okay? So that is hugely important. So consistency is the big thing time, just time with them. Make time for them. Because when you don’t make time for them, I’m because I’m busy kid you bother me go away. What does that tell your child that tells your child You don’t care? You don’t care. You’re not interested. Not interested goodbye. You know, that’s really what that says to that kid. And that basically tells the kid they’re not worthy. They’re not worth it. They’re not worth your time. So don’t do that. If your child wants to talk to you, you drop what you’re doing and you talk to your kid. If your child wants to go for a walk with you, you drop what you’re doing and you go for a walk with your kid your kids are your number one priority. Because if you don’t pay attention to their needs, now they will end up on my couch later. Yeah, okay. So consistency time, and I’m getting all of this out of Psychology Today, the latest issue of psychology today. Now, in this issue, it’s talking about what kids need from healthy parents. But really, it’s it’s what all kids need from healthy parents or the saner parent, girls diagnosed with depression are significantly more likely to report that they felt rejected or neglected by their parent of the opposite sex. And same goes for guys. So you’re having to heal and work on the damage that the abuser is doing to the kids through the parental alienation through the rejection of them through the coldness through the whatever. This is why therapy for the children is vital. You cannot skip that. Where are my glasses? Dear Lord, I swear I’ll get to the questions. Hold on. Hold on. I’m on a roll here. acceptance, availability and positive effect, avoidance of harsh criticism. Now narcissists are notorious for doing the harsh criticism. You want to do constructive, constructive, constructive criticism. So in other words, you go Okay, well, this is not quite the way it should be. Let’s work on a solution. You know, what can we do differently? Whereas a narcissist comes in and just decimates again, you’re wrong, you know, hey, you can’t do anything. Right where, you know, they’re just Terrible. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Okay, so avoidance of harsh criticism, but do do constructive criticism. Okay, shared shared activity, doing sports together. That is something that is also fun for especially little kids. And the reason why is is because little kids,

Kris Godinez  36:32

little kids work things out physically. They do. So shared physical activities, sports, that kind of things. It helps them process it does. So um, yeah, and that’s hugely important in my hair just went everywhere. Oh, okay. So yeah, it’s hugely important. And it helps the kids understand that physical exercise is good, too. But I’ll tell you what, a lot of abusers don’t like physical exercise because they can’t win at it. Or if they do do physical exercise with a child, they try to beat the child, sometimes, literally, but they will. It’s always a competition. There’s no fun. There’s no fun. So it’s really important to have fun with your children. It’s also important to just share time with them. Listen to them, ask questions, what do they need? Just important what Is it for you to ask use yourself? What do you need? It’s just as important to ask your kids what do they need? What will help them? So anyway, there is that okay, now let me get to the questions. Hang on just a second. Have you heard of Daniel Morgan’s book? You’re not crazy. It’s your mother. Love the title. Looking for your opinion on it. Um, I have not read that book. There’s a lot of books that I have not had a chance to read. So I can definitely look into trying to get a hold of that and read it. Oh, there it is. Okay, there we go. Um, hold on just a second. Why do Narcissus Wait a minute, where did I go? Hang on? Why did Narcissus rush us so much. My parents rushed me as a kid and now I cannot chill. It’s like my body resists it and has become an enemy. Okay, so Narcissus can’t stand. being quiet at all. And I felt I I went through the same thing. So when I was doing when I was when I was growing up, my dad constantly rushed me in the morning, always it would, there was never enough time it was always like, get up, get breakfast, get dressed, go, go, go go. And I had the hardest time for the longest time eating breakfast I really did. Because breakfast to me always ended up with me throwing up because I was such a nervous wreck. So they rush us because it’s a power thing. You know, get going here. So slow years is the way to put us down. It’s a way to make us feel bad. It’s a way to, you know, do all of that. So, they do that because they they can’t chill. They really can’t. And it’s really important to get with a good therapist, like seriously a good therapist, and there I am. And work on relaxing, work on chilling out work on taking your time. So it’s a self care thing. It really is and that was something I had to work on because that was something that John pointed out to me earlier in our relationship he’s like you know, it’s like you’re always a Go go go go go go go and I do still tend to be a bit of a Go go go go go or but I was way worse when I was younger. And so that’s when I started practicing meditation. That’s when I started really diving into you know, okay, where did this come from? Oh, it’s my dad. Isn’t that interesting? JOHN can attest, it’s like I tell him it’s like don’t rush me, because that that will set me off more than anything, especially if it’s at breakfast. And it’s like, Oh, we got to go. Ah, no, we’ll just be late, I am not rushing through breakfast because I am not throwing up again. Thank you. So yeah, it’s it’s, it’s something that our abusers do because it’s a power and control thing. They can make us wrong for being slower. There’s nothing wrong with being slow. So when you’re doing your mirror work, Hi, good to see you have a great day. You know what? It’s okay to take your time. You above all other people are worthy of your own time, your own love, and your own attention. And then notice what the internal dialogue does if it’s mean if it’s nasty, if it starts going, No, no, no, thank you for your input. Shut the Bleep up. Why? Because I say so. I am the boss of this. This is not the boss of me. I get to take my own time. Because I say so. So yeah, so the abusers whole goal is to make us uncomfortable. It’s to make us wrong all the time.

Kris Godinez  41:13

And they can’t relax. My dad could never relax. He was always on a tear to harm, hurt. You know, if he couldn’t be in control if he you know, if he stopped and thought for any amount of time, oh my god, it would drive him crazy. And he would take it out on us. Because that internal dialogue in their heads is a rabid raccoon, it is not pretty. And it’s just right there in their head all the time. So that’s why they can’t chill out. But unfortunately, they also teach us that we can’t chill out either. So hold on a second, let me get to the next question. Um, so get with a good therapist, get with a good therapist and really work on that because you are worthy of your own time. Okay, why are Narcissus good to their kids when they are younger but as soon as the child grows up the narc started hating and resenting the child. Okay, let’s talk about that, shall we? So this goes for malignant borderlines as well not just Narcissists. They tend to love the child when they’re babies. Okay, why? babies don’t have an opinion. babies don’t have their own personality yet. babies get their personality probably around. Opinions probably around three everybody says it’s a terrible twos I’m like have you been around a three year old? Hello? So um, so really it’s it’s around three is about the time when the narcissist or the malignant borderline goes How dare you have dare have your own opinion? How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? Because the kids are starting to develop their own personality and the older kid gets the more the kids gonna say no and one thing that abusers don’t like is the word No. Why? Because it’s a boundary word. It’s a stop and I mean it word it’s a boundary and they don’t like boundaries and they want to be able to turn that child into a mini them. And that’s what they do they love turning kids into mini them. So um yeah, you just did as that’s why which sucks because then the poor kid who up until that time has been somewhat loved so let’s let’s let’s be clear here. Narcissists do not love they do not love not the way you and I understand love you and the way you and I understand love especially for our own children. Or for any child or any little baby thing is unconditional. It’s like I love you because you’re you Okay, we’re done. You know, it’s it’s conditional with a narcissist. It’s always conditional. It’s always what can you do for me? And so when kids start developing their own personalities and their own opinions, that illusion that the narcissist has of this perfect little mini me is shattered, and it pisses them off. Because to them, we have no more meaning to them than this pen. What can we be used for so if they get attention from the kid, then they will love the kid but if the kid is doing nothing for them as in they’re not a star athlete, or maybe they’re not first in their class whatever, then they could care less. That kid is a loser in this and the other thing which to me, I’m just like, what the actual hell anyway, so they will do that, which just pisses me off immensely. So that’s why they treat children differently as they start growing up because now the kid has got an opinion. They’re getting their own personality, they may start acting like the other parent, you know, and the narcissist doesn’t like that either. Or they may start looking like the other parent. That’s another thing that I’ve seen narcissists do is they will dam their child You look just like your father. You look just like your mother. Oh, okay. It’s called genetics. beyotch not like I had a lot of choice in that thanks. But they will do that because they’re cray cray. Just don’t forget that they are crazy So yeah, that’s why they do that to their kids. And it’s really it’s really, yeah, and they’ll start Getting the kids they’ll not want to spend time with them. You betcha. Okay, what can you do when one parent signs the kids up for sports or activities on the weekends, but the other narc parent won’t take the kids since they have them on the weekends. Okay, this is why you want to make sure that you have a good attorney and that when you do your custody agreement these things are all thought about and of course we don’t think about them because you know let’s say that you get divorced the kids are babies right you’re not even thinking high school sports you’re not but you should be and if you had a good attorney, they would remind you of this. So you want to speak to an attorney. Maybe you want to talk to the coach and just say look I’m in a high conflict divorce the ex is unwilling to bring them to practice or bring them to the games they’re only going to be there intermittently i don’t know what i can do I don’t know if you can say anything you know sometimes coaches will do that sometimes they won’t sometimes they’re like your problem not getting involved in that so um yeah so you want to

Kris Godinez  46:05

you know, let the coach know let the coach know what’s going on. You want to talk to your attorney you want to try to civilly resolve it but I can guarantee you the narcissist is not going to do it because it’s their time and this is also why you want to try to get right a first refusal because what I see a lot of narcissistic parents do at least here in the state of Arizona is they will get the kid on their time and then hire a babysitter or shove them off on family their  family and then go out and party and then you’re sitting here going hey my kid could have gone to this great concert or this game or this you know whatever What the heck so but this is what abusers do because it’s all about the win it’s all about sticking it to the parent they can’t see and they don’t care that they’re hurting the kid they don’t you know if they could really see that they wouldn’t be Narcissus number one, but you know they don’t get or understand the damage that they’re doing to the kid because it interferes with the kids development and interferes with the kids socialization and interferes with the kids enjoyment of life etc etc etc so yeah that’s why they do that is because they How dare somebody be doing something that they enjoy? Seriously, they will intentionally ruin you know, possibilities of doing sports they’ll ruin graduations or ruin birthdays anniversaries any special occasion kids you know yours anybody’s because they are vindictive, horrible heinous creatures, I would say human beings but now they’re not so yeah so there is that okay so that’s that’s why they do that so I would talk to an attorney and see if you can go back and maybe modify maybe talk to the coach See if you can work through that. Okay, hold on a second. Okay, um okay, my ex is accusing me of parental alienation and abuse but she is the one bad mouthing and hitting or and sends them back to me in clothes that are too small new clothes never come back shoes never come back. Okay. All right. So okay, you’re gonna want to document if there’s hitting going on called DCs Department of Children Services. You want to get ahold of your attorney. A lot of this is attorney questions. I wish I had my attorneys that I could, you know, have on the show. So um, so if they’re hitting the child, you want to call DCs and file a report, even if it’s just an FYI, look, this is what the kids are telling me. I just want to make sure they’re safe. Now, the abusive parent is going to come unglued, and they may try to punish the kid more. But usually what ends up happening is if they know there’s another set of eyes on it, they stop. They stopped the behavior because they know they’re being watched. So you definitely want to file a report with DCs, you definitely want to get a hold of your attorney and you definitely want to file for emergency custody. If that is the case, if hitting is going on. What I have seen abusers do is yes, the kids will get Christmas presents. They’ll take them over to the abusers house never to be seen again or the kids will get new clothes, they go over to the abusers house the abuser sends them back in clothes that are way too small, old full of holes, etc. So the intention is on that level is that they don’t care about the self esteem of the kid. They don’t care that the kids being made fun of at school. They don’t care about any of that. They want to stick it to their ex and they want to financially bankrupt them so they will keep shoes. They will send the kids over barefoot in the dead of winter. I’ve seen that as well. They will send the kids in clothes that are three or four years old that don’t fit that are full of holes that you know and the kid has had to go through school you know wearing that and you know how Kids can be so yeah, they don’t care. They don’t care. All they want to do is in their sick little heads. They’re just like, haha, I stuck it to you, you’re gonna have to buy new clothes. So the kid is allowed to wear the new clothes over there. Maybe, you know. And what I also seen them do is they’ll take the new clothes and they’ll just donate them. And the kid never gets to wear Them. Yeah, they’re A holes, big time. So yeah, they’re they’re horrible. So you want to definitely talk to your attorney. All of that be especially if there’s hitting going on and file a file a file a report with DCS? Absolutely. All right, does narcissistic abuse cause ADD? How can we heal ourselves from that? Honestly, I’m not sure what causes add? Is it nature? Is it nurture is a combination of both? I suspect it’s a combination of both. If you have a parent like what we were talking about before where it’s go, go go go go And don’t you dare rest and don’t you dare relax and don’t you dare Yeah, that that can cause symptoms of like,

Kris Godinez  51:04

add, you know, I can it cause add itself? I don’t think so I think there’s got to be a genetic component to that as well. So um, it’s it’s not just a behavioral thing. So it’s probably a little bit of nature a little bit of nurture. So I’m sure that you know, I’m sure the abuse just kind of pushes the kid off the cliff so to speak. So, all right, add, so how to heal from that you want to get with a good therapist, that understands ADD ADHD, be very careful of all of the side effects medications have for it. Be careful, of the medications, be careful of the medications for that, because it’s basically speed. So it’s a paradoxical effect, they put you on Adderall, or they put you on Vivant or they put you on Oh, what’s the other one? Adderall Vivant and something else? Anyway, it’s speed and so it has a paradoxical effect. It helps people focus whereas with somebody with non ADHD if they took that they would be like, you know, screw that kind of thing. So um, yeah, you want to get with somebody who understands ADHD. You also if there was abuse, you want to you want to go through the process of working on the PTSD, the C PTSD complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. So I would strongly suggest getting the books I recommend so the inner child workbook by Katherine Taylor, the disease to please by Harriet breaker, C, PTSD, from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker, that’s a really good one. Get with a good trauma therapist and start working through the trauma star walking through all the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs that were given to you that are not yours? By the abuser? So yeah, okay, let’s go to the questions. Do we have any more? How can we heal from the pandemic of individualism and narcissism? Oh, so, okay. narcissism is rampant. And I think the pandemic has really pointed that out. It’s really shown you people are showing you who they are. And I think I talked a little bit about this last week that you know, john and i driving, we realized that the rules of the road are gone. People are short tempered, they’re anxious, they’re, you know, driving like maniacs, I’m a fine one to talk. I like to speed. But you know, but I’m always aware of my surroundings. It’s like people are like the lights are on the engines running. So I think what it is, is, especially in the court system, we’ve got to start speaking up on us as survivors need to start speaking up, and we need to start demanding that the court system and probably the police as well, if you look at what happened to the Abby, Gabby Pettit case, you know, the police had a great opportunity to protect her they had they had all of the classic signs that there was abuse going on, especially with the person who called in the report that he was hitting her, not the other way around. She took all the blame for it. That’s what abusers make their target of abuse do. It’s the fog, fear, obligation, guilt, and they will protect the abuser completely. So yeah, we need to demand that the family court system is updated. We need to demand that the judges have a working knowledge of personality disorders, high conflict divorces, it’s it’s not just, you know, I’m going to fight over every fork. What does the fork mean to the person because a healthy normal person would be like I don’t care, you know, but a crazy person will fight over every last fork and want to win and want to hurt the other person and do as much damage as they possibly can. So I do think that we need to start speaking up. When we see injustice is being done in the police in the family court system and it’s rampant. It’s rampant. Police get hardly any training on mental health cases it breaks my heart. And this happens periodically here in Phoenix where a person who’s floridly, psychotic, probably hearing voices ends up getting shot by a police person, because they can’t follow or obey commands because they’ve got Satan on one side and God on the other, both of them yelling at him, and then this person in front of them yelling at him, it’s impossible. If you want to know what having schizophrenia fully floridly psychotic, schizophrenia is, like, have one friend in one ear screaming nothing but good things, have another friend in one ear screaming nothing but bad things, and then have somebody tried to give you commands in front of you, you’re not going to be able to do it. And if you throw in on top of that, delusions and hallucinations, hallucinations, especially, you know, they’re not going to be able to follow commands, you know, it’s unreasonable to think that they could. So yeah, this is why it’s important. I

Kris Godinez  55:59

think that we start speaking up about these issues, and I do think Family Court needs to be reformed. It absolutely does. Because the ones who end up like I said, the ones that end up in court are generally disordered, because healthy, normal, people just want to get it done. They don’t want to drag it out forever and a day. But somebody who is disordered absolutely wants to drag it out forever, they do. Because they’re angry, and they would rather have a messed up dysfunctional connection to somebody than no connection at all, they would rather have contention and that divorce, drama triangle going on, than peace, whereas healthy normal people are like, let’s just divide everything up. Let’s split the custody. Let’s get her done. Let’s do what’s best for our kid. Seriously. So there is that? Okay. Um, all right. Is it common for the narc parent to talk about wanting to divorce, but never doing it, then blaming the kids for not being able to? Oh my God? Yes. So divorce is used, especially if the target of abuse is terrified of being abandoned. So if the target of abuse is scared, or is terrified of being abandoned, the narcissist knows that because they’ve pumped for information, they know all of the fears of their target of abuse, and they will use that I’m going to divorce you, I’m going to divorce you I’m going to divorce you to terrorize the target of abuse to make them you know, obey, basically, yes, they do then blame the kids. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I couldn’t divorce because of you. I’m sorry. What? No, my dad used to pull that my dad used to tell me all the time. Well, I can’t retire because of you. And I’m sitting here looking at him. Like, you’re a grown ass adult, you can do whatever the Bleep you want. You know, and I thought that even when I was a teenager, so But yeah, he they will use whatever excuse they need to because they can never take personal responsibility. They can never be like, I’m afraid to divorce or I don’t really want to retire. You know, what would I do with myself? You know, that kind of thing. They can never ever think that way. So yeah, that is that is exactly what they do. They are and then they blame the kids for not being able to. And it’s horrible because kids take things personally. This is why I’m saying you’ve got to be so careful what you say to your children how you say it to them, because that how you speak to your children becomes their inner dialogue. And if it’s a cheerleader, good job. If it’s the internal critic, it’s probably the abuser so yeah, you’ve got to be careful about that. So there is that alright, I hope that answered all the questions. I would like to talk next week about codependency So one of the questions I got was, what happens if two codependence get together? I think we should discuss that. So let’s talk about codependency let’s talk about what happens when two codependents get together. So in In summary, make sure your kids have got a good therapist don’t bad mouth the other parent they may side with the abuser in a maladaptive attempt to stay safe that’s why a therapist is needed. Um So yeah, so anyway, I hope that was helpful. All right, kids, be good to yourselves be good to each other let people know and take good care of yourselves and I will talk to you next week and we will talk about codependency Alright, talk to you later guys. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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