Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.
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So, today’s topic is toxic friendships. So, okay, so I’ve gotten a lot of questions on what about the friendships? What about the friendships? What about the friendships and the thing that I keep having to remind everybody of is that the behavior is the same. Whether it is a toxic family, a toxic friend, a toxic romantic partner, or a toxic boss, they all literally do the same scripts seriously. Like, it really truly is, like, they have a playbook of how to be a toxic jackwagon, basically. So um, there was a couple of articles that I pulled that I thought would be good to go over, and it talks about the warning signs. So before we get to the warning signs, I want to remind everybody of their deal breakers, the deal breakers apply to literally everyone on the face of the planet that you come into contact with. So get your list of deal breakers out. And those deal breakers should be, you will no longer tolerate dis respect. So let’s get specific. What is disrespect? Well, disrespect is probably going to be in those signs that I’m going to be telling you about a toxic friendship. So disrespect is calling you names, making you feel bad about yourself. Not celebrating when you’ve had a victory or talking over you. That’s a disrespect, um, you know, putting you down, making you feel less than those are all disrespects
Kris Godinez 02:41
being jealous. That’s a disrespect. Hello. You know, I think we talked about this in one of the q&a sessions about jealousy. And somebody was like, Oh, they’re jealous. They must really love me. No, they really just respect you because they are insecure. So toxic friends tend to be very competitive. They’re in competition, they have to one up you they have to Oh, well, I did that. Well, you did this? Well, I did that. You know, instead of hey, good for you. That’s great. Let’s go celebrate, let’s go have a pizza. You know, instead of being happy for you, they have to be like, Well, I did this or you know, you leave feeling what’s the word I’m looking for drained. So you leave feeling drained you like you’re with this friend, but it’s it’s all about them. Again, it’s like the toxic, you know, narcissistic Mimimi III more, my genitals, that kind of thing. And it’s like, they talk about themselves, they talk about themselves, they talk about themselves, you can’t get a word in edgewise. If you do say something about what you’re doing, they immediately flip the conversation back to themselves. Again, that is toxic. Because a healthy relationship, whether it’s a family, a friend, or romantic partner, or a boss, anybody is a two way street. It’s give and take, and it’s fair. So that’s a healthy relationship. So when we come out of a dysfunctional family that is toxic, our pickers are broken. And so toxicity has been normalized for us. So this craziness over here has been normalized for us. So then when we go out into the world, and we start picking friends, I can pretty much guarantee you, your inner child is the one that’s going to be doing the picking. The one who got damaged over here with this family, and it seeks the familiar, not consciously, I swear to God, it’s not like we wake up in the morning and go, I’d really like to be in a toxic friendship. That’ll be fun. No, we don’t do that. But what we do do is that little inner child goes Oh, somebody who kind of sorta reminds me of mom, dad, sister, brother, whoever. I know if I can make them love me. I prove mom and dad sister brother wrong. It’s totally subconscious. And that’s why it’s important to drag the inner child into consciousness so that we’re aware of it so that we’re not stumbling in the dark. Remember the levels of consciousness. So there’s unconscious incompetence, which is when we’re bumbling in the dark hitting walls don’t understand why we’re miserable. We don’t get it what’s going on? Then there’s conscious incompetence. Oh, mom, dad, sister, brother, we’re toxic. Holy crap. Okay. Whew, this is uncomfortable. I don’t like it. Well, yeah, cuz now you’re understanding why you’re hitting the walls or you’re surrounding yourself with toxic people. Then there’s conscious competence. Okay, now you’re working on it. Now you’re aware of it. Now you see the walls, you can sidestep them, but you still have to kind of go okay wall. which for some reason, we just think of what we do in the shadow. But he shouts, bat, bat, and then he turns into a bat. Sorry, squirrel. Anyway, so you know, wall and then we can sidestep it, okay. And then there is unconscious competence, where we don’t have the yellow wall, we can go, oh, yeah, there’s a wall. Okay, I’m not even aware of it. I mean, I’m aware of it. But I’m not having to focus really hard on not running into the wall, I can just sidestep it and keep going on with my day. So these are the levels of consciousness that we have to work on. And there the there is a reason why when we come out of a toxic family, we have toxic friends. You know, not all of them are going to be toxic, but some of them are going to be toxic. And this is why the list of deal breakers is hugely important. ginormously This is why if you do nothing else, write your list of deal breakers and stick to it seriously, that will keep you mostly out of trouble. So if you’re willing to be honest about it, so disrespect, like I said name calling making you feel bad being in competition, being jealous, those are all disrespects, you know, lying, cheating, stealing, causing problems in your relationship, you know, intentionally trying to break you up intentionally trying to you know, whatever. So you know, of course, this is different than a friend coming to you and going, you’re in a toxic relationship. What the hell, so that’s a little different. And of course, the abuser will flip that on its head and say that you’re the toxic person, blah, blah, blah. But so a friend, what is a friend so let’s talk about that. What is a friend what constitutes a friendship? A friendship is when you meet somebody you like, and you guys have got things in common, and you enjoy each other’s company. And it’s a mutual give and take and you laugh together, you have fun, together, you go do fun things together, you know, you just enjoy each other’s company. And it’s kind of like a meeting of the minds. It’s like, oh, this is really nice. Now toxic, narcissistic abusers, psychopaths will mirror and make you think that you know, they’re your friend and this that the other so toxic people love bomb, just not in the same way that a romantic partner would but they kind of love bomb in a very similar way. So oftentimes, it’s Oh, we’re so familiar. Oh, we’re so this. Oh, we’re so that, you know, we’re just, you know, you and I are just peas in a pod, you know, that kind of thing. But then as the relationship continues, you recognize you’re the one doing all the calling. You’re the one that’s being called upon to bail them out of problems all the time. They never call they don’t bail themselves out. They certainly won’t walk across a mud puddle, let alone and ocean to help you. So you start seeing the inequities in that relationship. And that is toxic, because a healthy friendship is give and take. I got your back, you got my back. We’re friends, we enjoy each other’s company. There’s no competition. There’s no I just Oh god, that is such a huge red flag. As soon as somebody is like, you know, trying to compete. It’s like, what are you doing? What are you doing? This is not a no, thank you. So these are all red flags as to what makes a toxic relationship. So a friend doesn’t do any of that a friend is constant. They’re kind, they’re patient, they’re honest, they’re open, if there’s a problem, they’re gonna say, hey, there’s a problem, let’s fix it. You know, they’re going to be willing to work on stuff just like anybody else that’s healthy, romantic, non romantic boss, coworkers, etc. Where we tend to get into trouble is that we start assuming that everybody is gonna be the same way we are, which is you know, kind compassionate, etc, etc, etc, which is what got us into trouble romantically in the first place. And of course, we had that modeled for us in the family of origin with all of the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs, magic thinking, etc. So, you know, we get we were set up basically we were groomed so, um, And okay, so we come out and we think everybody’s gonna be the same way we are when they’re not. And then they love bomb but they love bomb with the whole our peas in a pod, we’re just we’re best buddies, we’re besties you know this whole thing, except that as time goes on, you start realizing it’s very much one sided. So, okay, let’s talk about the signs of 15 warning signs, eight signs of toxic friendships. So the eight signs of toxic friendship is from Susan pintler, PhD, this is on psychology today. And it says, Okay, you find yourself in competition with her other best friends. Again, narcissists tend to have heroines of people, and instead of being, you know, with one person or the other person or group of friends get together, it’s a competition, who’s more loyal, who’s more, who’s more my bestie, that kind of thing. And that’s not healthy or normal. You know, I’ve got a lot of friends, I see all of them, I talk to all of them, they are not in competition with each other for my attention. I give the attention to each person, you know, because that’s what healthy normal people do. But who abusers narcissist know you’re in competition with the other friends, you’ve got to prove your loyalty, you’ve got to prove your friendship, you know. So there is that there’s an imbalance in talk time all for the Friend, friend in quotes, none for you. You call her and she tells you about how lousy her days been, or how great her day was. And then her or him, I just want to be very clear can be either gender, then you start telling her or him about what’s happening with you. And then all of a sudden, they’re busy and have to go, how many times has that happened? That’s, that’s a huge red sign. You know, you ask how their day is, but they don’t ask how your day is. And that when I’m working with couples, that’s the number one thing that clues me in that we’re dealing with an abusive relationship because the party who’s abusive never asked about their day ever, ever. So it’s the same thing with friends. That’s why I’m saying it’s like all of the warning signs are very similar, a little different, but very similar. Okay, so, excuse me. Um, all right, um, where did this go eight times. There it is. Okay, um, your best friend blurts out criticism with a self righteous attitude. They’re highly critical all the time. Oh, really, you’re gonna wear that, you know, just bitchy, you know, it’s just what, you know, really, you’re going out like that? You know, that kind of thing? Or, you know, they’re just critical. And why are you doing this while you’re doing that? Why, you know, especially if you do something different than what they’re doing. Remember, disorder, people cannot handle differing opinions or different ways of doing things. So yes, they’re highly critical all the time. And he did just, hmm. It just Yeah, did. And it’s tiring. It’s tiring. And here’s another huge clue. You’re walking on eggshells. You’re walking on eggshells walking on eggshells. Stop walking on eggshells by Randy Krieger. Great book, get it? Read it. Great book. So you know, it’s you’re walking on eggshells. It’s like, Ooh, is this going to set this person off? Ooh, are they going to be in a bad mood? If I say that you shouldn’t have to be censoring yourself with your friend, you should be able to talk about everything from A to Z just like you should with a romantic partner or a healthy family member. You know, it’s how easy is the conversation? Or is it like, you know, pulling teeth? Dear Lord, know, when you’re hanging out with a friend, it should be like putting on a nice pair of loafers. It really should or what are those things called hugs mukluks, the you know, the real the fuzzy stuff on the slippers with you, you slip your feet in, and it just feels nice and warm and fuzzy. And you know what I’m saying? So it should be like that. So it shouldn’t be difficult, um, and they shouldn’t be blurting out self righteous criticism. You know, it’s okay to criticize as long as it’s constructive. You know, so, you know, it’s like, Hey, I’m worried about you, you look like you’re not getting enough sleep. Are you? Okay? You know, that’s kind of a little bit constructive criticism, like, you got your circles under your eyes. Are you okay? What’s going on? You know, so and friends are concerned about each other. And we ask each other how they’re doing, like a friend of mine right now is doing the house hunting thing, dear Lord, and of course, there’s no houses to be found for less than frickin $400,000 in the Phoenix metro area. And of course, my friend can’t afford that. And so it’s kind of like, how can she get up or else that she could afford? You know, so, you know, I’m always like, are you okay? How are you doing? What’s happening? What can I do to help? You know, sending you know, whatever houses I see available, and of course, as soon as they come up on the market, they’re gone. Don’t get me started. Why am I off on that tangent? Well, because friendships care, friendships care, we care about each other, we actively help each other even without being asked. Sometimes, but you know, it’s like you’re always checking in to make sure you’re okay. It’s kind of like, it takes a village kind of thing. And so you’re always making sure that you know, Hey, are you okay? Is there anything I can do for you? Are you okay? Great. Yeah, I am great. Okay, let’s go to coffee. You know, that kind of thing who calls whom? I think I talked about that. Are you always calling or texting them? And they never reach out? Do you feel like you’re more interested in talking and getting together than they are? That’s a really good clue. Relationships get toxic when the other person isn’t as invested as you are in them the opposite feeling stalked by a friend. incessant demands on your time can be toxic as well. So yeah, toxic friends can also do the opposite side. So again, everything’s on a spectrum. So they’re either like disinterested, not calling, which is usually the narcissistic thing to do. Or if they’re really disordered, they’re stalking you. They’re this they’re that they’re, you know, dressing the same way you do. That’s a little scary. They start dressing the way you do listening to the music that you do start showing up at the places you go to unexpectedly. Yeah, that’s, that’s stalking behavior. So that can happen as well.
Kris Godinez 16:11
Okay, so there is that? Okay, oh, your best friend is constantly trying to change you. So instead of allowing you to have your opinion, I think we talked a little bit about this, instead of allowing you to have your opinion. They want you to be more like them. So they want you to start dressing like them. They want you to start doing the things they do they want you to start drinking tea or coffee or whatever it is they do or you know, they so they’re trying to change you in to them. That’s another huge that you’re walking on eggshells. I think I talked about that. At first, it used to be fun, you laughed, you commiserated it was such an enjoyable connection. But then something changed, it flipped. Now it’s easy to get in trouble with them. Now better be careful. But then you start being overly careful and watching every word you say and everything you say is wrong. If that is the case, run, do not walk to the nearest exit. Seriously. I mean, that’s just abusive flat out. You’re writing an emotional roller coaster. So I love you. I love you. I love you. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I love you. I love you. I love you. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you that is intermittent positive rewards. One minute, they’re your friend, the next minute they’re your enemy, or they hate you or you’ve done something wrong or you’ve made them mad and then you constantly run after them going. Are you mad at me? Are you mad at me? What did I do? What did I do? Does that sound familiar? Boy, this is this is the Platonic version of the romantic abuse. It really is. They do the same damn thing. same damn thing. Word for word action for action. It is all the same. So okay, how Okay, where are we? Okay, you feel worried scared and off balance. One minute. It’s great. The next minute it’s awful. That’s trauma bonding, their trauma bonding you the stress starts to settle in your body. So remember, the body keeps score Bessel Vander Kolk so if you’re with somebody who is trauma bonding you and you’re leaving that friendship like like you, okay, you had coffee with them. They spent the whole hour talking about themselves and criticizing you. And gaslighting you gaslighting, changing, rewriting history. Oh, I never said that. I never did that look like so let’s say you confront them on it. Let’s say that you you finally just go you know what? I’ve had enough. You’re doing this, this, this, this and this and I’m not going to put up with it. Please stop. What they’ll do if they are truly disordered. And if they’re truly toxic. They’ll start gaslighting I never said that. You miss you. misunder understood you misheard me. What? No, it didn’t, you know, they’ll start gaslighting. They’re lying. They’ll start rewriting history. They’ll put it back on you have Wiltshire you’re just stressing me out. You maybe I don’t want to be around you because you’re stressing me out. And then of course, excuse me, that’s the abandonment stuff that gets triggered in us. And then we go Oh, no, no, no, that’s not what I’m in and bla bla bla and then we find ourselves gaslighting ourselves about what just happened. So that’s a huge red flag, you know, and then you leave that conversation you come home and you’re just like, what just happened? I don’t want even Wow, how did wait a minute, did I? I’m tired. When you feel drained. You feel exhausted? You feel yucky? You feel slimed. You feel you know lied to you feel confused about yourself. That’s a huge clue. If you’re feeling confused or second guessing that’s a huge clue that you have just had an interaction with a toxic toxic person. So okay, there is that hang on. Alright, um, it settles in your body. The stress settles in your body. It creates the cortisol which messes with your immune system. You get neck eggs, backaches, you know etc, etc, etc. The body keeps score Bessel Vander Kolk read it. It’s a great book. Look, so there is that okay? Signs of a check. Okay, got rid of that one. Okay, there that is okay. 15 warning signs of a toxic friendship they only call when they want something, the conversation is never equal, they put you down or make fun of you in front of others. And this is what toxic abusive people do all the time in order to gain power and control over another person. They think that if they can put you down and make you feel shame, that now they want and now they have control over you. So, second, somebody tries to shame you, or put you down or make you feel bad about yourself. That’s when you go. Bye bye now. Bye bye, go pound sand.
Kris Godinez 20:40
Okay, they make you feel bad about yourself, when you’ve spent time with them. So that’s like I’m saying you come back and you feel slimed. You feel bad about yourself, or they make you feel guilty for spending time with your other friends or your family. They make you feel guilty or not make you but they try to instill that guilt. So remember, no matter what the relationship is, if it makes you feel fearful, obligated or guilty, fear obligation, guilt fog, that’s the abuse fog. And that is a huge sign to get the hell out there aggressively competitive, they aren’t happy for you when good things happen. They bring the drama into your life. And they’re always arguing with one of the other friends and they’re always demanding that you choose sides. That’s not normal. I mean, people have kerfuffles they do they have you know, little little upsets, whatever. But adults handle it without dragging everybody else and their dog and their dogs cousin into the fray. Does that make sense? So yeah, it drama. If they’re stirring the pot, get out. Get Life is too short. Life is too damn short. There’s such a beautiful world out there. Ain’t nobody got time for drama. I’m sorry, unless it’s on the stage. And unless it has Tom Hiddleston in which case I will watch that. So okay, the point being is okay, all right. Where are we going? 15 sites, okay, stop with the ads. I’m alright, you’re giving more than you’re getting. You’re absolutely giving more than you’re getting you no longer trust them. You dread checking your phone, because you know, there’s going to be a demand. You don’t enjoy spending time with them anymore. You don’t like yourself when you’re with them. You know, they talk doo doo about you behind your back and sometimes in front of your bed. That is a UI. That is something that really toxic people do is they will talk about the person with the person standing right there fully expecting the person who’s standing right there to not say anything. I’ve had family members do that. And oh, boy, they only do it once. Let me tell you. So yeah, it’s like, oh, we’re not playing that game. I heard what you said, come over here and say it to my face right now. And of course, there’s a whole bunch of four letter words in that too. So you know what I’m saying? You don’t put up with that. But that is what toxic friends do. They will talk about you with you standing there expecting you not to comment on and then as soon as you call them out, you know what they do? Guess like, oh, you misunderstood, you know, a back pedal back pedal backfill? Uh huh. Why don’t you just backpedal yourself right out of my life? Mm hmm. You know what I’m saying? So yeah, oh, they do that, um, you. They make you compete with other friends. You don’t think they have good intentions, you don’t trust them? You don’t trust their advice. I have seen toxic people intentionally steer another person wrong. Because they thought it was funny.
Kris Godinez 23:38
You know, this is this is what I’ve seen in my, in my therapy, working with people and they’re dealing with toxic people. They intentionally got steered wrong, because the person thought it was funny because they were freaking psychopath. Oh, my God, signs of a psychopath. It’s on Discovery. If you haven’t watched that it triggering, but it kind of makes you sick too. But, but it’s a great show, because it’s just like a hot scene that Mm hmm. Yeah, that’s what they do. Uh huh. You know, it just Oh, blows the mind. Okay, um, boop. Where are we going? Okay, you can’t depend on their device, you cannot trust them. You’re embarrassed by their behavior towards others. They’re rude. They’re rude. They make demands, and they drag you along to kind of show how important they are. That often happens in high school situations, very immature situations. You know, let me show you how big I am. When I was in high school. There was a group of girls, they were just nasty. They were the cheerleaders. And they intentionally, you know, I asked one of them because they had really pretty hair. And so I said, Hey, who does your hair totally lied to me? totally lied to me. So I called the salon up that they said they went to and I said, Hey, you know, I really like so and so’s hair. Can you book me with that person? And then they did it. It was a completely different hairstylist and I was like, Oh, really, huh. You know, so from that moment on, I knew I couldn’t trust him. And it was a whole competition thing. So it was kind of like, you know, they were jealous of me for some reason, and threatened by me. And I was not jealous of them. Because it’s like, I don’t treat people like that have a nice life. Go pound sand. Do you see where I’m going with that? I mean, so yeah, I mean, it’s like this Catty, nasty, immature, high school kind of thing. It’s again, life is too short. The only people I am ever rude to our abusers when they are rude to me. It’s like I will not put up. In fact, I’m just going to tell you guys, I was so proud of a couple of my clients this week, because two of them called up and was like, I stood up to this builder, and his builder was trying to jerk me around. And he gaslighted me and I demanded to speak to a supervisor and boy, howdy, I threw everything out of that, Utah. And I was like,
Kris Godinez 25:49
awesome, and they got what they needed taken care of. So, you know, it’s great to see that people are learning from this and learning from me and being able to stand up for yourself, there is a time and a place to stand up to abusers. If they’re a toxic friend, you’re going to have to kind of decide if it’s something you want to stand up to. Or if you’re just gonna let it die by attrition. We’re going to talk about that in just a second. I want to get through this first, you start making excuses for them. We do that with romantic partners. You start feeling used, you don’t know why you’re friends with them anymore. They criticize you all the time they make you second guess yourself. Okay? So there is that? Okay? They bring drama into your life they bitch about you behind their back. Your back the relationship feels like it’s built on being conditional. You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours, you do this and all like you that’s conditional. They bail on you during times of crisis. So let me tell you this. weddings, funerals, graduations and having babies any major life milestone is really going to show you who people are. And dear God believe them the first time when they show you who they are during those times of crisis are those times of stress. That’s sometimes when you have to be like okay, but by but by now go pound sand but but don’t have time. But by so yeah, weddings, funerals, graduations and babies. Those will all show you who people really are. And take note and believe them. The first time I’ve seen abusers do the whole Oh, well, it was just really stressful. Oh, it was so stressful. You had to start calling people names loudly inappropriately, really? I don’t think so have a nice life. And by Have a nice life. I mean, go pound sand. You know what I’m saying? So or they do something intentionally to ruin a special day. You know, toxic friends do this too. So you’re getting married, and you’re getting stuff together. And suddenly the day of the wedding, they’re having a crisis, and they want you to take care of them what the actual bleep. You know what I’m saying? It’s like, Ah, this is not about you, baby doll is not about you, sir. So and this is something that I have to tell potential brides all the time. So when we’re dealing with toxic families and toxic friends, you know, it’s like, do you really want this person in your wedding party? Do you really want this person involved in the planning of your wedding? Do you really do you have somebody you can assign to them? To keep them from stirring the damn pot? Because trust me, they will. They will is abusers ruin, weddings, birthdays, holidays, anniversaries? Anything important, including funerals? Trust me on that one? Okay, um, boop. Okay, they bail on you important on important times, you know, they either cause problems or they just aren’t there. So, you know, you lose your family member and they’re like, peace out. I’m not around. Oh, stop crying. You know, they you know, they were old you should be over it. What it doesn’t matter how old the person is, when they die, they die and it still makes it grief. It still makes it grieving, grieving grief, flee griefing you know what I’m saying? You’re grieving. you’re grieving and it and anybody who tells you to stop crying, dear God, run, do not walk to the nearest exit. They use your secrets against you and they share them with other people. They are a bad influence and get you to do things that are harmful to you. So let’s say you’ve decided to get you know healthy like in all aspects, you’re going to therapy, you’re working out, you’re eating healthy, etc, etc. Center. Well, this person will either start bad mouthing therapy or they’ll be like, oh, you know, you could just eat the blah blah. I mean, a cheat meal is one thing okay? But if they’re like shoving stuff at you, which is what I’ve seen them do you know, it’s like oh, well you need to eat this cheesecake. Oh, well, you need to eat this very fatty. Not good for you food you need to you know and like literally come on, come on. Come on. Have dessert. Okay, great example.
Kris Godinez 29:55
One of my clients had described how they don’t like dessert. They don’t like sweet things. It’s just some people don’t some people just don’t like sugar, which I think is great. I wish I didn’t like sugar because unfortunately I do. It’s an inflammatory. I really should not eat it. But, um, you know it she just doesn’t. And so she, you know, told this family member I don’t, I don’t like sugar. And what did the family member do shove desserts, shove desserts, shove desserts, shove desserts. And that was the clue. That was the thing that finally went doing. This is toxic. They’re not respecting me. They’re not listening to me. They’re not honoring my boundary, my food boundary of I don’t want sugar. I know what it does to my body. I don’t want it. I don’t like it go the bleep away. And that was the clue. So it’s the little things guys, it’s not going to be what’s the word I’m looking for. It’s not going to be like a you know, Disneyland fireworks in the sky. This person is toxic. It’s gonna be an accumulation of the little things that is finally going to make you go oh, oh, oh. And I was so proud of that client for standing up for themselves and saying, No, I am not taking a bite. I am not doing this. It’s no thank you. So yeah, I mean, it’s just Oh, yeah, this is what they do. Um, okay. They bail when you need it most. They exclude you from things with mutual friends. So they’ll make sure you know about it. So a group of people will go out. Oh, you know, Susie and Jenny and I all went out and bla bla bla bla bla, and you’re sitting here going, why wasn’t I invited? which then makes you go damn, am I the problem? Okay, but here’s the thing. If you’re really wanting to exclude somebody, you don’t then tell them about it. See where I’m going with that? So again, it’s high school. It’s high school. It’s high school. It’s high school. I’m very immature. Okay, so let’s see. All right, um, I think I got all of the talks. Oh, dear Lord, I went over again. Um,
Kris Godinez 32:06
okay, so to neutralize a toxic relationship, you got a couple of options. You can just let it die by attrition, you know, so and this is usually what I do, because they’re the ones that don’t call. They never call, they don’t you know, you’re the one putting forth all the effort. So it’s really easy to just be like, Okay, I’m going to stop calling. I’m just going to not call them and let’s see if they call me. And of course, it doesn’t happen because they can’t be bothered. narcissists. Can’t be bothered. I’m not kidding you. This is this is a common thread with narcissistic mother in law’s narcissistic friends, narcissistic, you know, bosses, co workers, whatever, is that they, they can’t be bothered to call because that’s your job to call them because they’re so important. Please. So yeah, so that’s literally what happens. Oh, and that’s the other thing I wanted to talk about really quickly. And I sort of got I’ll get to the questions, coworkers, co workers, so frenemies, I consider a lot of co workers for enemies, you know, it’s like you get along with them, because you have to, because you’re working together. But you’re not really friends. You’re not you might work together, you might go out for drinks after work occasionally, but you’re not really friends, you see where I’m going with that a friendship, shares intimacy and is trust worthy, it’s solid, it’s, you know, you’re there for them, they’re there for you. You know, if it’s a friendship, you’re truly a friend outside of work. If it’s a frenemy kind of thing, it’s like, you can’t trust them with your intimate details. You can’t trust them with vulnerability, you can’t trust you can’t trust them. You know, it’s a work situation and work situation only. And the biggest mistake I see a lot of survivors of abuse do is they try to make the work coworkers turn into like a family of some kind. Now, it would be lovely if the families were all healthy and functional. But a lot of corporation coworkers are not because a lot of corporations are not functional. So yeah, you want to be very, very careful who you share details with, can they be trusted, you have to kind of go very slow and make sure that it is safe, and that they’re not going to use anything against you, like run to the boss and talk to them or you know, share things they shouldn’t or whatever. So, again, it’s trusting your gut. Can this person be trusted? Do they have a history of running to the boss? Do they have a history of spilling the beans? Do they have a history of not being trustworthy? If that’s the case, you keep them at arm’s length. You’re civil, but you’re distant? So yeah, for enemies, man for enemies. Um, okay. So you got two options when you’re dealing with friends and this mistake is made with romantic relationships as well as friendship. Oh, but I’ve known them forever. Oh, but they’ve been my friends since we were in grade school.
Kris Godinez 35:08
Okay, that’s great. So let’s look at this like, an investment. Okay? If you were investing money in something that you’ve had since grade school, and it suddenly stopped returning or it never returned, would you continue to throw money at it? Or would you do the smart thing? And walk away? The smart thing is to walk away. So we suffer from this time invested fallacy that somehow because we’ve known them forever, that this is a good thing, and we need to keep it No. If you’re not getting the friendship back. If you’re not getting that equal level of support and love back, there is no reason to continue the friendship. I don’t care how long you’ve been friends. So or how long you’ve known them? Or you know, goes for romantic goes for family, you will you’ve known your feelings since you popped out of the womb, but that doesn’t mean you still have to hang around them for a bunch of abusive jackasses. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, okay, so the point being is, is that don’t separate from the time invested. So what you can do is to clarify, in your own head, do a pro and a con list. What are the pros of staying in a friendship? What are the cons of staying in a friendship? You do one on one page one day, you set it aside, and then you do another on the other page, and then you bring them together? And whichever one is longer is probably what you should do? Usually the con is super long, and people try to skew it because they already know the answer. So honestly, if you’re doing a pro and con list, you already know the answer. You just don’t like it. So but a pro and a con list can help you clarify what’s good about the friendship, what’s bad about the friendship, and then you kind of got to go, Okay, well, there’s two ways of doing this, I can either let it die by attrition. Or I can bring it to their attention and see what happens. Now, caveat, caveat, caveat, here’s the big, you know, warning thing, they probably are not going to take it kindly, and they are probably not going to change. I had a friend in college, that I realized it was a one sided friendship, it was always about what they wanted, and what I could do for them, etc, etc, etc. And so I brought it to her attention, I thought, Okay, I’m going to bring it to her attention and see, and what I got was the million tears, and you’re a bad person and bump up the butt and I went, Okay, well, you just told me everything I need to know. And I walked away. And I am no longer friends with that person. I haven’t been friends with them and 2030 years, you know, so but you have to do that. Because it’s like, if you bring something to somebody’s attention, a healthy normal person will go, Oh, okay. I wasn’t even aware I was doing that. Let me work on that, you know, provided everybody in the world is healthy, right? Or, you know, if they’re not healthy, they’re going to deny, deny, deny break to a million tears or flip it around on you. And it’s your, it’s you, it’s you, it’s you. It’s Uuuuu guns, so. So that’s the danger of bringing it up to them. But I like to give people at least one shot. It’s like, look, here’s, here’s the deal, here’s what’s going on, can you work on it, and if they go screw you, I don’t have anything to work on. You’re the problem. Okay? Bye, have a nice life, go pound sand, you know, the other thing is you let it die by attrition. So by letting it die by attrition, you just lengthen out the time that you talk to them or call them. And you just start being busy and nine times out of 10. They’re not even going to notice you’re not in their life until they’ve run out of supply. And then they’ll call you. So there that is so with, you know, and it depends on the age level. When you’re a teenager, it’s hard to let go friends, and it’s hard to let go potential friends. Because there’s all that peer pressure and all of that stuff. But I’ll tell you what the best thing I ever did was figure out what those cheerleaders were up to, and stop trying to be their friend and realize, okay, their game plan. I got enough of that at home. I don’t need to deal with that. Do you see where I’m going with that? So it’s it’s hard. And so if you’ve got teenagers that are dealing with toxic friends, the toxic friends are not worth it. And it feels like everything is important. You know, like, oh my gosh, no, this is my life. This is my social group. Things change so quickly between teen and young adults and middle age, it’s like, the things that you think are going to be important are not And what’s funny is, is in growing up and growing older and maturing, some of those girls have come around.
Kris Godinez 39:39
And I’ve gotten some, you know, apologies, or at least some nice things from them. So and we do see each other at the reunions. So it’s kind of like, okay, I’m still never going to be super buddy buddy with you. But thank you. I appreciate it, you know? So, yeah, it’s interesting. It’s interesting. So, friendships do change over the years and what’s important changes Over the years and as we mature and as we grow, but the one thing that should never change is you never, ever want to tolerate abuse. You never, ever want to tolerate disrespect. Get your list of deal breakers together. And then if you’re really thinking about letting friendships, go do a pro and a con list and then decide how you’re going to let it go. It can either be a direct confrontation, and then they will tell you everything you need to know to end it. Or you just want to die by attrition. So there that is. Okay, let’s see, let’s dive into the questions. All right. Is it common for a toxic person to seek out friends who are a lot younger than them, and try to become Best Buddies, Best Buddies, when the toxic person starts lying about their real friends? Yes. So think about it, if you’ve got somebody who is way older, they’re taking advantage, they’re taking advantage because they’re older, they’ve got more experience they’ve got you know, that’s why I’m always very suspicious when you know, there’s somebody who comes in and tries to buddy buddy to a bunch of teenagers, and they’re in their middle age. And I’m like, What? No, this is toxic. No, thank you. You know what I’m saying? So, yeah, I’ve seen that in my office as well. So in working with teenagers who start getting taken advantage of by an older abuser, so yeah, um, so yeah, this is because it’s a power differential. It’s a power, differential power and control. Remember, they are all about power and control. That’s all they want. They don’t care about anything else. Um, yes, it is common, it absolutely is common, and they do try to isolate and they do try to tell the true friends, you know, you that the true friends are bad and wrong, and you shouldn’t hang around them. And this that the other thing. And that’s hard, especially when the person is younger, because they don’t have the life experience. They haven’t done the research, they haven’t had the experiences of having somebody trying to isolate them, they don’t even realize it’s happening. So that’s, that’s why it’s really important to stay in touch with your teenager. Talk to them daily, how are you doing? How, what’s going on? Who are you hanging around? How are things going? What was the best part of the day? What was the worst part of the day? What would you like to do again, you know, that kind of thing, stay in touch with your teenager, it always drives me crazy when parents somehow think that because they’re a team that now somehow They’re magically going to know how to operate socially. And how to stay safe from abusers. No, this is something that needs to be taught, it needs to be modeled, and it needs to be taught. And this is why open communication with your kids is so important. Who are they hanging around with? Who is their social group? Or you know, are their grades suddenly dropping? Why? Who are they hanging around with? You know, and I hate to say it, but oftentimes, it’s because the child has started hanging around with somebody who tells them, You don’t need to go to class, let’s go to class. This is better, this is more fun. Let’s go do that. Peer pressure, peer pressure. So this is why you want to stay with a pulse on what your kids are doing and who they’re seeing and who their friends are. And what is that family like there’s a reason why good parents are often I need to meet the family, or I’d like to speak to the mom or I’d like to talk to the dad or I’d like to, you know, to kind of get a feeling for how this family is there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, it’s necessary because again, 30 to 40% of the population is disordered because they don’t go get diagnosed because nurses don’t go to therapy unless they’re court mandated, or unless they’re forced to by their partner. Okay, so there that is okay. Um, how to deal with friends, who are not flying monkeys for the abusive ex friend, but do not get the situation and think both parties are at fault. Okay, so anyone who is willing to side with an abuser is now willfully ignorant after you have educated them. If you have educated them on what abuse is, if you have educated them on what constitutes a real friendship and what doesn’t, and they are still citing and seeing this other person. That’s when you go. So nice to have you in my life. Thank you for teaching me this lesson. Goodbye. Bye now. Bye. Do you see where I’m going with that? You let them go? You let them go? Mutual quote unquote, friends who play Geneva? Oh, I’m Geneva.
Kris Godinez 44:24
I’m not going to take you both were wrong. Bla bla bla bla bla, I can guarantee you you cannot trust them. You cannot trust them as far as you could spit a dead rat out of your mouth. You know what I’m saying? So yeah, you want to avoid avoid avoid get rid of those people. It’s it’s it’s really cut and dried. So there’s there’s two types of flying monkeys. There’s either the just frickin ignorant. They don’t get it. They haven’t understood abuse because they never seen abuse. They’ve never been a party to abuse they don’t get it. In which case you educate them and then if they get it and they go, oh, and then they you know are distancing themselves from the abuser then that’s great. But if after you you’ve educated them and they’re still, you’re both wrong. I’m sorry. Have you read what I just gave you? Did you read the object of my affection is in my reflection coping with a narcissist by Raquel Lerner? Oh, you did, and you’re ignoring it. Well, screw you. Goodbye, buh bye now, buh buh, and nobody got time. Ain’t nobody got time. You let them go, you let them go. Because I can guarantee you if after educating them, and they’re still doing the whole bills, you’re both at fault. They’re an abuser. They’re a minor abuser, but they’re an abuser. So there’s two types of flying monkeys one is just ignorant, they don’t get it they haven’t been exposed to and nobody’s educated them. The other one is themselves a minor abuser, a minor narcissist, a minor abuser, etc. And they’re enjoying the drama, they’re enjoying the drama. So you just exercise them going to go and be gone from your life, you don’t need them. Absolutely. When to stop excusing a person’s narcissistic behaviors, because they’re young, and their brain is still developing friend in early 20s, constantly talking about themselves. So okay. If they’re showing your narcissistic behavior, and you pointed out and then they still do it again, they don’t want to stop doing it. So teenagers tend to be very self centered. Yeah, difference between narcissistic and self centered, children are self egocentric. Okay? Not egocentric. Like, look at me, I’m so great, but egocentric as in, oh, my gosh, you know, grandma died because I yelled at her that one day. So they think that things happen because of that, as we mature, we go through higher cognitive stages, then we become a little more egocentric and a little bit, you know, you know, oh my gosh, my peers and my this and my, this, and my dad and my this. And that’s a teenage kind of thing to do, they’re very self centered, that as you hit your early 20s, you start kind of growing out of that, especially if somebody takes you aside and goes, you know, I’d be nice for you let somebody else talk might be nice if he asked somebody about how their day was, you know, that kind of thing. So, you know, if after kind of educating them and explaining why that’s annoying, or maybe you know, what’s going on? And did should you get therapy? What’s happening? Um, you know, it could be a learned thing from the family. I don’t know, I don’t know some families, this is the learned behavior. So you find out what’s going on, you educate them. And if after that, they’re still choosing to blog about themselves and never ask about anybody else, then it’s a choice and not much you can do so. But make them aware of it first. So, um, okay, how can we learn more about what a friend is I have the workbook safe people, are there more ways to better learn? Well, okay, friendship. Again, it’s, it’s your deal breakers, it’s, it really is your deal breakers, are they treating you with respect? Is respect being served at the table is it and if it’s not, you leave, and disrespect? Is all of those things I just talked about? Don’t put up with that. Don’t put up with that. That’s, that’s no good. So you know, a friend, again, isn’t easy relationship. It’s something that you share, you go do things together and you enjoy each other’s company, and you feel good when you leave them. If you’re feeling anything other than good when you leave them. That’s probably not a healthy friendship. Okay. To what extent are frenemies aware of what they are? Hmm, I think they’re aware. I do. I really, truly do. Because, you know, it’s like in the work situation, you know, I
Kris Godinez 48:52
worked with several people where we just kind of acknowledged it’s like, okay, we’re coworkers. That’s it, you know, and it was aboveboard, and we were not friends. And we were you know, we were just coworkers, you know, so we knew that and, and though none of us were willing to go stab each other in the back, frenemies are in front of us are aware of it. So remember, frenemies. smile on your face. It’s that old is it? The spinners I can’t think of the song was like a 1960s 1970s song. They smile on your face all the time. They want to take your place the backstabbers that’s, that’s what it was. The song I think, I think it was by the spinners. I don’t know. Anyway, so it was talking about the backstabbers those are frenemies. So they smile on your face and they pretend to be all nicey nicey lovey, lovey, you know, that whole thing Hold on. But then the second they get the chance they stab you in the back. So yeah, that’s a that’s a frenemy. And they do know what they’re doing. They absolutely because it’s usually they stab you in the back in order to gain a one upmanship in order to gain power control. excetera, that kind of thing. So going back to the question about, they’re young and their brain is still developing, so the brains really don’t stop developing until about age 28 or 29. So you got to make them aware, you got to let them know, hey, you know, not great behavior, you know, it’s just like, it’s just like, if somebody was never taught table manners, right? Because the family never practiced them, and they never saw them in, in practice. So you kind of have to make the person aware, you know, hey, we need to do this. When we’re out in public, you know, we need to talk with our mouths full, you know, that can you let them know gently but it’s like this kind of like a social thing, you know, that kind of thing. So you let them know gently, you know, kind of like, you know, you’re always talking about yourself, you don’t ever let anybody else talk. I just wanted to make you aware that that doesn’t really go over well with people and you may not be aware of that. So let me help teach you you know, that kind of thing. But you know, if after you’ve made them aware of it, and they do it then yeah, you know, okay. All right. Is a queen bee friend, narcissistic they seem to be thriving on attention and put others who don’t go crazy about them down. Absolutely. As soon as somebody tells me they’re a queen bee. I my guard is up shields are on full. Phasers on stun. Yeah, a queen bee is a narcissist. Absolutely. Oh, I’m the queen bee. I control everything and if people don’t like me well I’m just gonna you know put them down talk bad about them etc etc etc pick out a Mean Girls Hello. You know that whole thing? So yeah, Queen Bees are definitely narcissist be aware of. It’s the same thing as if somebody walks in and says I’m so woke as soon as they tell me how woke they are. I’m sitting there going real Jay Shetty. Oh, my God. I love Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty just did this whole parody thing on being woke. And I was like, high five. I’m so with you. Oh, my God. So yeah. So the woke on the queen bee, though immediately, that tells me oh, there are some personality issues there. Because healthy normal people don’t walk around declaring that they’re a queen bee. Because you know, you’re not better than anybody else you do. Everybody is struggling with their own stuff. And then nothing makes you better than anybody else. We are all children in the universe deal with it. You know, but they have to be better. They have to be one. That’s a queen bee. And then the woke one same thing I know more than you know, I’m I’m more sensitive than you are. Okay. And while we’re on that sensitive topic, if a friend ever tells you when you confront them, oh, you’re being too sensitive. I was just kidding. Oh, does that sound familiar? Oh, run. Do not walk to the nearest exit. Anyone who tells you how to feel, needs to suck it seriously. Because you have a right to your emotions. You do and they don’t get to tell you that you’re not feeling hurt when they’ve hurt your feelings. Let me just say that again. They don’t get to tell you that you’re not feeling hurt when they hurt your feelings. Oh, you’re too sensitive. You took that wrong? Oh, I didn’t mean it that way. I was kidding. Oh, yeah. I don’t need to deal with this is your problem. Okay, you did show you who they are. Bye. Bye now. Buh bye. Go have fun being alone. Buh bye. Do you see where I’m going with that? They don’t get to tell you that you don’t feel hurt when they’ve hurt your feelings. That’s a huge red flag. ginormous. That’s why I’m saying when you confront somebody with behavior, if they take it in and go, Oh, my God, I am sorry. That is that was not my intention. I said the wrong thing. I’m
Kris Godinez 53:35
sorry. And I won’t let it happen again. How can I make amends? Okay, but if they that’s real, but if they go well, it’s you. And you’re too sensitive. And you’re too did a did today and I was joking and blah, blah blah, blah, blah. Run? Do not walk to the nearest exit apps up freakin loot like, Okay, where are we? Are we doing on time? Almost done. Okay. Um, okay, a former colleague was closest to me. But now I know is my biggest Frenemy. He called me friend Friday. And we’ll call again, should I answer? Ooh. Why would you? Why would you? I don’t have time for people like that. I’m sorry. Once Cheb somebody has shown me who they are. Why would I want to be around? And that’s the other thing is that oftentimes, former co workers especially will they want to know what you’re doing or what you’re up to because it’s a competition and they want to outdo you, you know, and so they’re counting on you oversharing because that’s what we’ve been trained to do by our abusers is that we overshare so if somebody is a frenemy, and you already don’t like them and your gut is yelling at you don’t answer the phone be busy. Or if you do answer the phone you happen to get them you just not paying attention you answer the phone. Stay on the line for like two Three minutes. Oh, you know what, it’s really not a great time. I got to go talk to you later bye click, you know, click, nobody clicks anymore. pushes buttons now, for me. Anyway, the point being is, is that if you already know they’re a frenemy, and can’t trust them and you can’t share with them, then you need to just not answer. I would love if you could discuss pathological demand avoidance and rejection sensitive dysphoria in a future topic. Oh, okay. Yes. Okay. I will. Actually, if you could, I am me that that would be great. Yeah, I am the that so I don’t forget. Um, so yeah, cuz we’re coming down to the end here. Oh, we are at the end here. I think there there any other questions? Let me double check. No, that’s it. Okay. So to recap, friends, true friends, you can share anything with you’re not walking on eggshells. You feel comfortable with them, you feel happy with them. You leave the exchange going, Gosh, I can’t wait to see him again. This was so much fun. You know, that’s a healthy, normal friendship. That’s a healthy, normal romantic relationship. That’s a healthy, normal coworker relationship. That’s a healthy, normal boss relationship. That’s a healthy, you know, you feel good when you leave their presence. If you’re feeling slimed, if you’re feeling exhausted, if you’re feeling bad about yourself, that is not healthy. So anything that makes you feel fearful, obligated or guilty, that’s toxic. And the way to deal with toxic friends is to not suffer from time invested fallacy. Do a pro and con list. What are the pros of being a friend with them? What are the cons of being a friend with them. And that if there’s more cons than pros, let it die by attrition because nine times out of 10 if they are truly disordered, they’re not calling you you’re calling them because they’re the queen bee. And queen bees are too important to call the little people. So let it die by attrition and just extricate yourself that way. Or if you want to try to save the friendship, which doesn’t sound like there’s much of a friendship there if they’re doing all of these things. But like, let’s say that there’s one or two things you’re doing and they may or may not be aware of it, like the friend that you were talking about. That’s only 20 that you know, talks about themselves. Make them aware, let them know, Hey, this is not okay. This really upsets me or hurts me or whatever. And if they flip it around on you and try to tell you how you get to feel about them misbehaving. Oh Halona kick them to the curb. Hostile away, go, goodbye. Bye now. pound sand seriously. Um, I hope this helped with the friendship thing. It really it’s the same behavior. It’s just nonsexual, you know, so and I think that’s where people kind of are like, well, but it’s different. It’s a friend. I’m like, no, they do the same thing they love bomb in the beginning. And then the devalue in the discard starts where they start trying to make you compete with other friends for their time. Or they make you wrong for spending time with your family or friends or they start isolating you. You know, it’s it’s all the same. So all right, my love’s go have a great week, and I will and have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Eat ever so much turkey. Oh my god, this is gonna be great. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving, enjoy yourselves. Remember, if you’re having to deal with a toxic family, you have the right to leave. You don’t have to stay and you do not have to engage in every argument you’re invited to. Alright, have a great week. Talk to you later. Bye.
Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.
You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.