Have you ever noticed some people either create chaos and drama or chaos and drama seems to follow them where ever they go? Have you also noticed that as much as they claim not to like chaos and drama, they still seem to be at the center of said chaos and drama? Red flag alert! You are dealing with someone who is disordered.

You may ask yourself, “Why? Why does this person blow up every relationship? Why does this person seem to enjoy the chaos and the drama? Why and who would want that in their lives?” Rest assured, the chaos and the drama are absolutely intentional on the part of an abuser. It serves many purposes, such as distraction so people are not focused on their wrongdoings and excitement, as many dark triads need adrenaline the way the rest of us need oxygen!

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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Current events, holy cow, all right, so Phoenix has a really nasty issue with wrong-way drivers. Sometimes the drivers are impaired like they’re on drugs or alcohol. And sometimes, the drivers are doing intentional…. They’re trying to commit suicide by having somebody else kill them. So just recently, John and I were just talking about this, there was this driver that wanted to commit suicide and left a suicide note in the car, intentionally drove the wrong way on the 101, and intentionally hit another car. She has minor injuries; the other guy is in the hospital in critical condition. So, the selfishness of that act, the selfishness of being impaired, knowing you’re drunk, knowing you’re on drugs, getting into a car, and then intentionally getting onto a public road and running into somebody. That’s inexcusable. I’m sorry. And this happens all the time. I don’t know if this happens in other major cities, but in Phoenix, there is not a month that goes by that we do not have somebody getting onto the wrong way. Wrong road, wrong-way drivers, and either intentionally or unintentionally hitting and killing other people.

It’s just so I looked up wrong-way drivers because we’re kind of on this topic of drama and chaos. And I asked the question. It’s like, are narcissists generally, aggressive drivers are problems driving, and it says are Narcissists as good at driving as they think they are. The answer is no! Narcissists lack empathy, are entitled, and believe that they are not bound by the normal rules. So that’s a little bit of antisocial. Narcissists also don’t believe they are bound by rules, but antisocial really does. So those are dark triads. So, Out of my way! Narcissism is linked to aggressive and reckless driving. So that’s my psychology today. So, I thought that was interesting because narcissists, and here we go, going into our topic here.

Narcissists love to create drama, and they love to create chaos. And it’s interesting because my dad and I write about this in the book. What’s wrong with your dad? He used to play chicken with us in the car and terrorize us, and you want to talk drama, you want to talk chaos, you want to talk screaming, so he would get into the car. And he’s been, you know, he would be, you know, deciding that he was going to, you know, drag race, or he was going to go into the other lane and play chicken with an oncoming car, and then he would enjoy the terror that he saw in our faces. In our eyes. He was a sadist, you know? And that’s generally what dark triads are, is that they’re narcissistic psychopathic Machiavellian. They are control freaks. And they’re sadistic. They enjoy watching the pain and suffering on their target of abuse of face. So, does that mean Phoenix has more narcissists? Well, if you’ve ever been to Scottsdale, you know what I’m saying? So, you know, it’s a possibility, I don’t know. But generally, it’s an absolute lack of concern, lack of empathy for the other person. You know, there was absolutely in that woman’s mind there was absolutely not a care in the world for the fact that she was going to take somebody else out in order to kill herself. There was not another thought of another person at all that that man’s family that that man, nothing, you know, and that to me is the ultimate in antisocial and narcissistic behavior because it’s like the Wow. So um, anyway, Psychology Today it’s all about how narcissists drive recklessly and create drama and chaos doing that.

So, what is up with that? Why do abusers, specifically narcissists, now but realize all of the cluster B’s do the drama and chaos thing. All of them do. So, I wanted to go through the different Cluster B things. So antisocial is a Cluster B, okay, so antisocial’s way of creating chaos is a little bit different than the narcissist way of creating chaos or the borderline’s way of creating chaos for the histrionic’s way. Okay, creating chaos. And realize when I’m talking about this, I’m talking about when they have slid from traits all the way down to completely malignant, okay, I’m not just talking traits of Gosh, it’s something that can be worked on. No, I’m talking, like, all the way down.

So um, antisocial personality disorder creates chaos by causing problems for the family based on their inability to recognize and conform to social norms. In other words, they get off on stealing, lying, cheating, all of this sort of fun stuff, getting in trouble with the law, pushing things, pushing the envelope, getting in trouble at school, that I mean trouble, like, real serious trouble, like violating other people’s privacy, rights, you know, etc., etc. Because the rules don’t apply to them in their minds. So um, so their way of creating chaos is more it affects the people around them. It’s, it’s disturbing to family members that see an antisocial child doing all of these things, arson, etc., etc., etc. If they’re good family members, if they’re not good family members, they don’t care, which is another topic for another day. Oh, God. Anyway, so.

So, the question, okay, so then all of these personality disorders, all of the cluster Bs tend to do chaos and drama, each in their own way. And each for different reasons. So, with the antisocial, it’s not so much to distract. They don’t. They’re not really thinking about the family, other family members, or how this is affecting them. For them. It’s about the adrenaline. It’s about the you know, I you know, I want, I see I take kind of thing. And so, they create legal drama and chaos for the family and for themselves, but it’s not so much with an objective or a goal in mind. However, with the other personality disorders, there is an objective and a goal in mind. So, let me just kind of go through these, um.

So histrionic personality disorder. So, they tend to be very, very, very dramatic, I mean, to the nth degree, so like, literally mountains out of molehills and, you know, a small thing is suddenly a screaming, MiMi. Oh, my God, there’s Oh, this is very dramatic, and they tend to be very shallow effect. And they have a lot of opinions, but they don’t have a lot of actual facts to back up those opinions. They also tend to be chameleons because they want to be liked. So, they are very dramatic, very chameleon-like, they have to be the center of attention. Honestly, I’m thinking that histrionic is probably going to get rolled over into other kinds of combined with other personality disorders. They have to be the center of attention. They tend to dress very provocatively. Now, this is kind of the thing that separates them from narcissists and separates them from borderline personality disorder. And I want to be very, very clear. Again, I in talking at the extreme end of the spectrum, I’m not talking about people have been diagnosed that still have an opportunity to work on themselves. I’m talking about the ones that have said no to therapy and have gone all the way over okay. histrionic personality disorder, they tend to be inappropriate in how they relate to other people, they dress provocatively. So, like, for example, you go to, you know, a meeting, and instead of being dressed in business casual, they look like they’re heading out to the nightclub, you know, that kind of thing. They tend to relate to people in a very sexual way, and it’s always sexual, and it’s always, you know, they’re very somatic. It’s very much about appearances. It’s very much about how they look, and they have to always be the center of attention, and everything is like DEF CON one, as far as drama is concerned. So, like, if they forget,

Kris Godinez  09:57

I don’t know their wallet at home instead. have, oh, I forgot my wallet at home, I need to turn around and go back. It’s this huge, generally Broadway production, you know, and it’s lots of crying and lots of screening and lots of upset and lots of blaming. So, personality disorders are very similar, but they’re distinct. So, they have a lot of overlap. Dealing with somebody who has histrionic personality disorder generally is difficult, and it’s difficult to get them into therapy. Because they again, do the whole, there’s nothing wrong with me, there’s nothing wrong with what I’m doing, you know, and the only time they generally go get therapy is when they are depressed. And generally, it has to do with if a relationship has failed. If a relationship’s failed, then they’ll go into therapy, and then they’ll get some help. But then, as soon as they start feeling better, they leave. That tends to be the way that one goes, you know, they’ll immediately get involved with another person to distract themselves from their issue. And there they go. So histrionic personality disorder tends to create a lot of drama, but it’s more, it’s more about them, you know, literally, like when somebody walks into a room and says, it’s all about me, oh, yeah, they’re not lying. Yeah, they’re not lying. And so, they will create a production, and all eyes must be on them. So, there is that so, um, histrionic personality disorder, self-centeredness, feeling uncomfortable when not the center of attention. And this is on Psychology Today, constantly seeking reassurance or approval, inappropriate. And here’s the here’s the distinction from the other one’s inappropriate, seductive appearance or behavior, rapidly shifting emotional states that appear shallow to others. So, they can literally go from sobbing to perfectly fine and laughing in, like, two seconds. I mean, there’s it. They shift gears like amazing, and then they can be angry, and then there’ll be back to perfectly fine and then, but it’s all really shallow. There’s no depth to it. It’s like it’s performative. It’s like it’s a show. It’s like they’re, you know, showing you their emotions as opposed to having their emotions, if that makes any sort of sense. All right, opinions are easily influenced by other people but difficult to back up with details. overly concerned with physical appearance, using physical appearance to draw attention to themselves, excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotion. So, like Broadway show, they’re playing to the balcony, tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are. Very clingy. And they will, you know, immediately they get into an office situation, and suddenly they’re best friends with everybody you know, and that’s kind of a red flag, highly suggestible, easily influenced by others. They lack self-awareness and have low emotional intelligence, so they can’t, they don’t even know who they are, let alone what other people are feeling. So, and causes again, genetics nurture nature, both? Is it related to narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, and histrionic personality disorder can sometimes overlap. These two disorders are within the Cluster B group of personality disorders. People in this group suffer thinking and behavior patterns that are unpredictable or erratic. They are also engulfed in high drama that is centered on the self. Okay. So, the histrionic way of doing drama, like I said, is generally more performative. It’s more like they lost their purse, they lost this that, you know, something, they broke up, something happened, and it’s the world is ending kind of thing. And it’s, you know, like I said, you know, going through all the emotions but not really feeling them, and it’s very performative. So, they create drama, that way. Okay, so that is histrionic.

So, borderline personality disorder, intense fear of abandonment, going to extreme measures to avoid real or imagined separation or rejection, a pattern of unstable intense personal relationships such as idealizing someone one moment and then suddenly believing that person doesn’t care enough, or is cruel the next. Rapid changes in self-identity and self-image that includes shifting goals and values and seeing yourself as all bad or that you don’t exist at all. periods of stress-related paranoia and loss of contact with reality lasting from a few minutes to a few hours, impulsive and risky behaviors such as gambling, reckless driving, unsafe sex spending sprees, binge eating and drug abuse, or sabotaging success by suddenly quitting a good job or ending a positive relationship. Suicidal gestures or behaviors or threats of self-injury, often in response to fear of separation or rejection. So that creates a lot of drama. Wide moods, wide mood swings lasting from a few hours to a few days, which can be happiness, irritability, shame or anxiety, ongoing feelings of emptiness, or sometimes described as boredom. So, they’re bored. Which is really not really. So as soon as, as soon as the client says they’re bored, I’m like, No, you’re not what’s really going on, because they’re either masking an uncomfortable feeling, or they just don’t know what they’re feeling. And so, they need help kind of figuring it out.

So, borderlines have a tendency to rage. And they have a tendency to go completely off the deep end. And they take things intensely personally, their form of drama is different than the narcissist different than the histrionic. So, it’s like. It’s a lot of miscommunication. And their fear is what drives the raging and the drama, and you don’t love me, and you know, the back and forth, and this and that. So, it’s, again, it’s a lot of drama, and it’s not stable there. The big difference with borderline personality disorder is it’s unstable, unstable personal relationships. It’s lots of enemies, they make lots of enemies, they have a tendency to come unglued over things that are not personal, but they’ll take them personally. So, if somebody sighs, just sighing because humans sigh. You know, if a dog yawns, probably, I’m going to yawn, you know, we sigh, we do things like that, but they’ll assume that it’s about them. Everything has to be about them. And it’s about them. And so, they have to go on the attack. And it’s a personal attack that you sighed because their thinking is disordered.

You have to understand they don’t think the way that healthy people think. They’ve got a very twisted way of thinking. And for them. It’s like if somebody sighs, “Oh, they’re going to abandon me, oh, they’re going to do this to me, Oh, they’re going to do that, to me, well, I need to go on the attack.” And it’s really it has nothing to do with the person who has borderline personality disorder. But they take things so intensely personally, and it’s not. And that’s drama because your… God, you’re walking on eggshells, Randy Krieger good book, get it, you’re walking on eggshells because the person with borderline personality disorder is going to take everything you do as a sign of abandonment, a sign of disrespect, a sign of your going to leave a sign of, you know like them. And it’s all in their head. It is all in their head and the only personality disorder therapy that works with borderline personality, I mean, really well. CBT does, okay. DBT does the best. So, if somebody’s got borderline personality disorder, and they want help go to a program that is specifically for dialectic behavioral therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder because they generally will do group sessions and individual and that’s the only thing that seems to work on that because you’ve really got to undo all of the maladaptive self-protective way of thinking that causes all this drama. Does that make sense? So, it and borderline if it’s caught in the earlier stages can be worked on because a lot of it is drama, trauma. Does that make sense? It’s trauma from the original family, if they get the drama from the original family that trauma happened with the family of origin. And so, these are all maladaptive behaviors that they’ve made to make themselves safe, and it doesn’t work, obviously. So um, so they’re very dramatic, they’re very intensely take things intensely personal, this is a personal attack on going to get you raging, etc.

So, the best thing to do with that is don’t play if somebody starts raging, you walk away, it’s like, you know, you can say, hey, my yawn, my sigh has nothing to do with you. And if they continue to rage, you simply walk out. You do not participate because they need an audience. So again, it’s this weird kind of validation attention that they’re getting, and we’re going to talk more about that because that then goes into narcissism. So, hold on, did I get everything, ongoing feelings of emptiness or boredom? Inappropriate, intense anger? Yeah, we talked about that.

Okay. So, narcissists, narcissists have to be the center of attention. We all know that narcissists literally say things like love me or hate me, just don’t ignore me.

Kris Godinez  19:37

Like literally, they…I’ve had classmates like that, you know, I mean, they will say and do things like that. They do things with an agenda. So, the difference between the narcissist and the borderline and the histrionic is that the narcissist lacks empathy completely, completely lacks empathy, probably with the anti-social as well. But with the narcissist, there’s no empathy there. They cannot put themselves in another person’s shoes. And the things that they do to create drama are intentional because they’re trying to control the narrative.

So, five terrifying ways that narcissists and this is on Psych central the ways narcissists and psychopaths manufacture chaos and drama to provoke you. They integrate, instigating crazy making arguments, logic loops, they bait you, they do things like that, it’s to get you wound up so that you’re the bad guy. That’s really what their goal is. They want you to think that you’re the one that’s the problem. So, they’ll sit there and poke the bear, poke the bear, poke the bear, poke the bear. Crazy arguments doesn’t make sense. Logic loop going in circles, word salad, that’s one of the things that they do. And of course, you know, a person that doesn’t understand this is trying to make sense of what they’re saying and try to respond to what everything that they’re saying. And you can’t because half the time, it doesn’t make sense because they’re just doing word salad. They’re just like, well, um, you know, will you do this and other than that, and it’s all of a sudden, you’re talking about a car, I mean it. They don’t make sense. And they’re trying to confuse you. And they’re trying to make you, they’re trying to gaslight you, and they’re trying to do all sorts of things to make you think that you’re the problem. That is their goal with those instigating arguments that make no sense doing the logic loops, doing the word salad to make you doubt yourself, and to drop the original issue that you wanted to bring up to them. Like, say, for example, they’re spending the money hand over fist that is coming into the household, right? Well, you bring it up to them, and what do they do? They flip the script. If you know, they know they’ve been caught red-handed. So now they’re going to do a logic loop, they’re going to flip it, and somehow, it’s now all your fault, or it doesn’t even make sense how they’re defending. They’re spending all of the money. Does that make sense? So, this is what they do, there’s an agenda, there’s an agenda for the way that they behave.

Okay, hold on back to the five terrifying ways ruining holidays, special occasions are sabotaging you before big events. So, narcissists absolutely have to be the center of attention. 110%. And if they’re not, it drives them crazy. They cannot stand it if somebody is doing something fun or enjoying themselves or whatever. So, this is why you will have at Thanksgiving, Christmas, you know, major holiday events where the family is together; everything is going great. And all of a sudden, the narcissist in the room says or does something that starts an argument or ruins the dinner, right? Or they do or say something, and somebody doesn’t want to misbehave. And so they get angry and storm out, and they fully expect the rest of the dinner to be ruined. They do this because it makes them feel powerful. It is all about power and control. It is it’s about them being right in their sick and twisted little minds. So, families of origin. I mean, I can’t tell you the number of holidays that were ruined by my dad because he would say or do something completely inappropriate. Or he would just, you know, I would say or do something he didn’t like, and he just turned around back hand me at the dinner table on me at the dinner table. You know? And then, of course, I would be like, Oh, hell no, you know, and it would be ruined, it would be ruined. So um, they do this because it makes them feel powerful. And if you’ll notice, they tend to pick on the family members that they don’t think are going to fight back or the family members that will fight back in such a way that will make them be like, oh, well, they’re crazy. Oh, well, that member is crazy. Oh, well done. You know, so the drama is intentional. They can’t stand happiness. Let me just be very clear. narcissists cannot stand happiness. They cannot. They don’t like it when other people are feeling emotions that they can’t feel it makes them angry because you have something that they don’t. And because they are operating on the level of less than a two-year-old. How dare you have something that they don’t, so they’re going to ruin it. They’re going to ruin it. Okay, so ruining holiday special events or sabotaging you before important events.

So, I had a roommate once back in the day when I was living in LA. I had an audition coming up, and he decided that he was going to suddenly have some sort of breakdown, right, and I can’t see; I’m blind I’m blind. I’m like, Okay, well there’s nothing that physically happened to you. There’s, you know, you need to go to a psych hospital. So, I ended up driving them to a psych hospital. And then, as soon as my audition was over, he was perfectly fine. And, of course, it didn’t get the job. So, you know, it just Things like that. It’s like they do those things on purpose. They create drama right before something important to sabotage you so that you don’t get the job, so that you don’t go on the vacation so that you don’t whatever because it makes them feel powerful to do that. So that instance would be called malingering. So, when somebody pretends to be ill, and they’re not, and it’s to control and manipulate, it’s called malingering. So, pretending to have a mental illness or physical illness in order to get the attention. That’s malingering. So anyway, um, okay.

It’s common, it’s not uncommon for narcissists to begin crazy, making arguments right before the day of a big event or interview to make you cry on your birthday or to purposely forget to give you a gift on your anniversary or Christmas or birthday or whatever. They may even ruin celebrations by actively provoking you behind closed doors before attending family events to make you look like the crazy one. Number three provoking jealousy and using love triangles to make you compete. Common with narcissists sleep deprivation. Yeah, stonewalling and silent treatment.

Okay, now let’s go over to the Drama Triangle. Are you stuck in a narcissist Drama Triangle? Three potential rules and how you can get out. So, narcissists love triangles of any kind. So, communication triangles, they love that they love to be the operator. So that’s another way to create drama. Well, so and so said such and such about you. Okay, so that’s them creating drama that way. And that’s also them turning you against another person that probably didn’t say what they’re saying that you said. They said, you said, Does that make sense? So, in a game of operator, the best way to stop that triangle is if the narcissist comes to you and says, so and so said such and such about you. Great. Get them on the phone. Get them on the phone. Let’s clear this up right now. That’s the best way to stop it. And usually, they backpedal. As soon as you do that, they’re like, oh, no, no, no, you know, so but the other triangle is the Drama Triangle. So, the Drama Triangle is the persecutor, which is usually the role the narcissist takes the victim, scapegoat, and the rescuer. So, they love to set up this Drama Triangle. The persecutor is a role that’s particularly suits the narcissist they dominate; they know best and ignore other people’s opinions. When things go wrong. It’s because if somebody else is useless, and it’s always somebody else’s fault, they may bully others and become aggressive if you don’t give them their way. They may use passive aggression as a means to be nasty to people by persecuting others, the narcissist’s fragile sense of identity is shored up, and their need to exert power over others is met. And they can switch between these roles. So, this is a game again that narcissists play to keep you off-centered. So, then they can flip from being the persecutor to the victim. Well, that’s over covert kind of victims view of the world as being against them. Like the persecutor. when anything goes wrong in their life, it isn’t their fault. They project a helpless image to those around them and manipulate others into helping them. I call them ask holes. They are exhausting to be around vulnerable narcissists in particular are often playing the victim so covert. So basically, it’s the Help me, Help me, Help me, to help them two seconds later, help me help. They’re assholes, and they want you to spend all of your energy fixing them. Don’t do it. If they are a black hole seriously, you cannot fix them because you did not break them. So, then the other part of the Drama Triangle is the rescuer rest narcissists can also be the rescuer.

Kris Godinez  29:21

They may surround themselves with people who they view as weaker than they. This also meets their need to be surrounded by people who feel too threatened to offer a challenge. Rescuing people can meet their need for attention, and they look like the good guy to everyone else. Being the rescuer can also mean that they can control the person that they’ve rescued. This is why I say be very careful when you are working with helping professions because my profession is filled with narcissists literally like I’ve seen some psychiatrists that I wanted to throat punch you know nurses, doctors, you’ve got to be careful if some if it walks like a narcissist and quacks like a narcissist and takes a dump like a narcissist, it’s a frickin narcissist, I don’t care if they have a PhD in front of their name, or behind their name or whatever. So be aware of that. So, the Drama Triangle, and they switch between all of these different roles depending on what suits them.

Now here’s the other thing I wanted to bring up. 11 reasons why narcissists create drama and chaos and 11 reasons why narcissists love drama, and this is on inner toxic relief. They crave attention of any kind. No attention is bad attention. They need to stay in the spotlight so that they can get their narcissistic needs met their cocaine. They get the adoration; they need to feel good. But even if it’s not admiration they’re after, even if they’re the bad guy, at least people are talking about them. And that makes them feel powerful. In their mind, others will see their superiority because they’re cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Narcissists want to control everyone. So, if they’re the ones that literally set off the bomb in the middle of the room, they will then sit back and enjoy it. You know, and feel like they are the ones in control that oh, look at what I did. Look at this disaster that I have brought, oh, look at this wonderful arguing going on, you know, and to them in their heads. They’re controlling the whole board. They have grandiose ideas of omnipotence, Narcissists cannot take responsibility when they have done something wrong; you can bet your sweet bippy they are going to do something to distract you from what they have done. So, because they cannot take personal responsibility, they’re going to blow something up, they’re going to create an argument, they’re going to do something and take your mind off of what they’ve done. And you have to go running around putting out all these little fires.

That’s another reason that narcissists create chaos and drama is to distract it so that you’re not paying attention. Hey, they did this, Hey, they’re the ones that set off the emotional bomb in the middle of the living room. Hey, they’re the ones that are, you know, cheating, lying, stealing, etc., etc., etc. Narcissists believe that being complicated equals being intelligent or equals being interesting. So many narcissists, particularly grandiose narcissists value intelligence as a sign of superiority. They also believe that a sign of intelligence is someone who is complicated or who thinks and acts in a complicated manner. So, if there’s an easy answer or a complicated answer, they’re always going to go for the convoluted, complicated answer because they think it makes them sound more intelligent. You know, or if they’re if they’re, you know, mysterious, you know, they a lot of the Guru’s a lot of the commute, communal narcissist, do the whole Oh, I’m so mysterious. I’m so complex on so, you know, this, that, and the other thing, so. Yeah. And so, it’s, again, it’s power and control, and they want to be perceived in a certain way. So, they try on these different roles.

Okay, narcissists want to keep you off balance. The main reason they cause drama and chaos is because they don’t want to give you too much time to think about what they are saying or doing. They fear often, rightly so, that you will figure out and the truth and be able to see through their manipulation. If that happens, one of their sources of narcissistic supply is in danger. And you might expose the ugly truth about their true nature, so they keep you off balance. That’s why they do the drama. If you’re constantly, you know, if you’re constantly trying to stay out of trouble and try not to get hit by dad or try not to be screened out by mom, you’re not going to have time to sit down and go wait a minute, you know what, none of this is normal. What, what, what? Do you see where I’m going with that.

So that’s why they do that’s why the parents do that. So really quickly, and we will get to questions. What ends up happening is hold on narcissist. Don’t care about your plans, especially if you made them, they would intentionally blow them up. narcissists always have a hidden agenda to manipulate to control to be in power to make you feel less than they absolutely will not go with the flow. If you’ve created something or you want to go do something, they’ll throw a monkey wrench into the plan every time because it makes them feel superior to upset plans at the last minute, and they don’t care about the drama and upset that it creates. narcissists get bored, and so it pleases them they’re sadistic to watch people be unhappy. They switch roles in the Drama Triangle, and they have to win.

So unfortunately, when we are raised in a family of origin where there is just drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, we come out of that. And to us, that was normalized, so drama and chaos feel normal to us. And peace and serenity feel Scary. So that is a side effect of coming out of a family of origin. That was drama, and chaos is that we come out of it, and it’s peaceful and quiet, and we go, oh, how can I screw this up? How can I get some excitement? How can I? Oh, this is boring. You know, we tell ourselves now because they told us that, so you know, oh, this is boring peace and quiet as boring or, ooh, this feels scary. I don’t like it. I don’t feel safe. Well, it’s because we were used to the drama and the chaos that was going on in the family of origin, which then sets us up for if we do not go get help and do not read all of the books, sets us up for dating, or marrying an abuser because it feels familiar. The Chaos feels familiar. The drama. Oh, does he love me? Does he hate me? Does she love me? Does she hate me? Oh my gosh, the intermittent positive rewards, all of that is drama. And that sets us up because it feels familiar. And we’re attracted to that because it feels familiar.

That’s why it’s so vital to get with a damn good trauma therapist. I don’t care where you get them from. Just get one and start working on C-PTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker. The Disease to Please which works on codependency The Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker because you want to break that trauma Drama Triangle. Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, so you want to get to the point where you know yourself inside and out, and nobody can tell you who you are, you know who you are. Because remember, narcissists love to tell you who you are and what you like. So, start working those books, get with a good trauma therapist, work on yourself, and work on gee, this feels really familiar. Hmm, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Do you see where I’m going with that? Because we tend to go Oh, it feels familiar. It must be good. Okay, if you were raised in a healthy family, yeah, that would be okay. But being raised by a narcissist or borderline, histrionic, and there’s lots of drama, lots of chaos, lots of crying, lots of anger, lots of this, lots of that. Lots of distraction. That familiarity is not necessarily a good thing. You really want to take a look at what you’re attracted to, if it’s based on ooh, this feels familiar. So that’s why it’s really important. Get with a good trauma therapist start working on this stuff.

Okay, I think we’re going to dive into the questions now. So, to wrap it up in a nice little bow. So basically, the cluster bees are really adept at creating chaos and drama, and there’s a reason for it. And each one of the reasoning is a little different. Antisocial, they break all the rules break their families, hearts etc., etc., etc. Histrionic. It’s a lot of superficial feelings, lots of performative kind of thing look at me. Look at me inappropriate coming on to people and appropriate dressing etc. Borderline Personality Disorder, the fear of being abandoned, taking things intensely personally, deciding that that’s the reason, and then they just come unglued. Narcissist, though it’s to distract. They want you to not figure out that they are the problem. And it’s enjoyment for them. Because if they’re dark triad, antisocial psychopath, narcissist, they, you know, they enjoy it. And they’re sadistic, and they enjoy watching the target of abuse be confused. And they enjoy watching us run around in circles because and be in pain because they’re sadistic. And they don’t want us to figure out that they’re the problem. So. All right, let’s go to the questions, shall we?

Okay. ostracizing narc family that had no contact with me for more than 10 years. Came back after my cancer diagnosis. Why? Well on a guess, and of course, I don’t have them in front of me. So, I’m just I’m, what’s the word I’m looking for?

Kris Godinez  39:12

I’m extrapolating. No, that’s not the word. I’m sorry. My brain just went, Oh, it’s based on an educated guess. Okay. A medical diagnosis. That’s cancer is drama. It is. It’s a way for them to, you know, play the Drama Triangle, the persecutor, the victim, and the rescuer. So, in this case, if they’re narcissistic, and they’ve ostracized you, and you had nothing to do with them for 10 years, and they find out you have cancer. Now, all of a sudden, they want to get back in touch with you. Okay, that feels, and I could be wrong because I don’t have them in front of me, but it feels like speculating. Thank you. That’s the word I was looking for. Um, It feels like this is the socially correct thing to do. Oh, I haven’t had contact with this family member in 10 years, and now they’ve got cancer. I should go, you know, so I don’t look like the bad guy. Does that make sense? So, my whole thing of it is, it’s like if somebody has not had contact with you in 10 years, and their first contact with you is after they find out from somebody else that you have cancer, stay no, stay, no, stay no contact. You know, it’s they’re doing it for whatever reasons they have, you know, and if you’ve been happier without them, stay no contact. You know, I would be very cautious about getting back into touch with them. And usually, it’s, again, narcissists, psychopaths, whatever they dark triads. They love to give the appearance of being this, you know, loving, communal narcissist. They love to do this. Oh, I’m such a, I’m such a loving, kind family member. Oh, look, I’m caring for this family member that has a medical issue. Look at me, look at me, Look at me is basically what it is. So yeah, I would be very, very cautious. So usually, you know, if somebody really is a narcissist, if they are abusive, there is nothing that they do that does not have some sort of agenda for them. What how is this going to benefit them? That would be the question to ask yourself, how is that going to benefit them? Because it’s certainly not going to benefit you if you’ve been, you know, away from them for 10 years and perfectly happy. And they’re suddenly like, oh, no, I need to be in your life because now you’ve got cancer. How’s this going to benefit them? That’s the question you need to ask yourself. So, it’s always an agenda. It’s always with some reason. There’s some reason they’re doing it. And it’s usually to benefit themselves somehow.

Do narcissists think in a chaotic way? They seem to tell stories in a very disjointed way. Like they’re filling in the gaps with things they made up themselves and insist the truth. Oh, boy, okay. So, narcissists do not feel the way we do, okay? They do not have the empathy that we have. So, when we’re telling a story, you know, we’re telling a story with, like, full gusto, right? narcissists tend to lie for the sake of lying, especially if they are dark triads because they enjoy it because they want to see what they can get away with seriously, like, seriously, like, if they’ve got that antisocial psychopathic thing going on. They want to see what they can get away with. And I think I talked a few weeks ago about pathological lying. It’s not in the DSM five. It should be. But it’s when they lie, and they know they’re lying, but they will swear on the Bible that it’s God’s truth, what they’re saying. And they convinced themselves that what they’re saying is the truth. So. Ah, yeah. So yeah, they can tell well-rehearsed stories, but they tend to like lying because it gives them that rush, it gives them that adrenaline rush, can I get away with saying it? Can I get away with this story? That’s not true, and have them believe it? Because then that makes them feel powerful? Again? So yeah, that’s, yeah, they do they think in a chaotic way. Okay. So, here’s, here’s, here’s something to think about. You can have comorbidity between all of the diagnoses, like, you could be narcissistic and have major depression, you can be narcissistic, and have borderline, you can be narcissistic and have whatever fill in the blank. Um, so can they have chaotic thinking? Yeah, if they’re, if it’s comorbid, with Borderline freak, yeah, yeah, absolutely, they can have that. Um, it’s really interesting to watch somebody that has the two personality disorders. Because it’s like, you can almost see, when one takes over the other, and they tend to start doing this, the further down the line they get. So, all of the personality disorders start overlapping as you get more and more malignant. You know, so, again, its psychology is fascinating to me. It’s just the different ways that they do things, and psychopaths in particular, love to do pathological lying. And it’s almost like it’s almost like there’s a part of them. It’s like, can I get away with it? Can I fool this person, you know, but The problem of it is, is that they’re not very good at it.

So that that might be part of what you’re seeing. So, it’s like, so I was watching signs of a psychopath, right? And in almost every single one of the episodes, the person who did the crime would try to pull a fast one on the investigators. And yet, their stories, you know, trying to come up with on the fly. Their stories were disjointed like you said, and they would say things that would eventually get them caught, almost as if they wanted to be found out. So, it’s really a weird thing that narcissists do. They will point blank tell you I’m a narcissist, right? And a lot of times, and when somebody does that, that’s when I’m like, shields up. Red alert, you know? No, we’re not going there. Thank you. So, they give things away in what they say. It’s really, It’s interesting. Um, are they filling in the gaps is they made okay and insistence the truth. So, a pathological liar does that they will fill in the gaps was stuff they don’t really know.

And try to make it sound plausible. It’s just like they did on signs of a psychopath. Really good show, if you ever want to watch it. And yeah, and then they lie. And they insist that it’s the truth. And this one that I was watching and Signs of a Psychopath, the newest season. This kid was just insisting and insisting and insisting and insisting, thank God, the sheriff’s deputy or whoever was interviewing was just like, you know, that’s not the truth. I know that’s not the truth. And he just calm gray rock kept hammering at him. And finally, the kid finally broke down and told the truth, finally, you know, but he was going to go to the end, just continuing to lie. So yeah, they do that. Absolutely.

Um, is histrionic personality disorder caused by trauma like BPD? I think so. I do. Because it’s weird. It’s like histrionic; they need to be the center of attention. But their affect is very shallow. And it’s a lot of sexual stuff. It’s a lot of dressing provocatively and being overly dramatic. I mean, like, you know, seriously, like a Broadway show, but they’re playing to the, to the top pier of the, you know, the balcony, you know, that kind of thing. I think it is. I do. I do think it is it, in part is caused by trauma. So again, it’s like nature, nurture. Is there a predisposition to this? Yeah, I think there is. I think there is a predisposition to personality disorders, nurture than either pushes you over the cliff or holds you back from the cliff. So yeah, I do think it is caused by trauma. And I do think that getting with a good DBT therapist can help. I really do if they’re willing to go to therapy, that’s part of the problem. So again, there’s this little bit of narcissism also kind of in there, where they’re like, oh, there’s nothing wrong with me. So that’s why I’m saying I’m not so sure that histrionic is going to forever be its own diagnosis because it’s very overlapped with narcissism. It really is. There’s a lot of narcissistic traits in histrionic. So yeah, there that is, okay.

Could you explain withholding physical or mentally I mean, withholding of financial support, intimacy, physical, intellectual, emotional, social, spiritual. emotional abandonment happens when I’m upset or excited. They shut me down, as they aren’t capable of sitting without being the center of attention. Okay, so I’m assuming you’re talking about parents.

Kris Godinez  49:12

And this is true for parents or for romantic partners. Abusive parents, abusive, romantic partners do not feel the way that we feel they don’t. They don’t process emotions. When we feel, we feel it. You know, we’re empathic. We can put ourselves in somebody else’s shoes. When we’re joyful. We’re joyful. When we’re sad. We are truly sad. When we’re angry. Oh, boy, we’re angry. You know, they don’t feel those emotions the same way we do. So, when somebody is having an emotion, happy, sad, angry, whatever, they will shut them down. They will shut them down. I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve talked to adult children of narcissists and borderlines, etc. That would tell me that when they were growing up and would have an emotion, the parents would either oddly be, like, angry at them for having an emotion or just not care. So, like something happened, that was good. And the kid is excited about it, and the mom is like, Yeah, whatever. What? No, did you want to talk to that kid and be like, hey, good for you. That’s great. Tell me more, right? But a narcissistic parent, a borderline parent, if they’re malignant, they’re going to be like, I don’t care kid, whatever, go away kid, you bother me kind of thing. Or they’ll be angry at the child for being so happy. I’ve seen that that was their excuse for punishing them for abusing them. There’ll be angry at them for being angry; I’ll give you something to be angry, Oh, you think you’re angry? I’ll give you something to be angry. Or the kid is crying, oh, I’ll give you something to cry because they can’t feel they don’t have empathy.

So, a normal parent, when a child’s having an emotion. You engage with them. Oh, honey, I’m sorry. You’re sad? What’s happening? What are you sad about? How can I help? You know that kind of thing? Or you’re angry? I hear that you’re angry. What happened? Tell me more. You know, it’s like you engage with them. You don’t shut them down. You don’t shut them off. You don’t shove them to the side. You don’t, you know, but personality-disordered parents don’t understand the emotion. They can’t feel it themselves. They can’t understand why you’re feeling it. And that pisses them off. So, they’re going to shut you do because it makes them uncomfortable. Or, yeah, you’re the center of attention, you’re having this emotion of boy howdy, they’re going to shut you down because they need to be the center of attention. That’s what they do, because they’re disordered. That is not a normal parent. That is not a normal romantic partner, normal romantic partner, again, will engage and ask questions, and you know, do you mean anything? Can I do anything? You know that kind of thing. So. So there is that? Okay, let me see if I answered this question.

So withholding is also called stonewalling. So stonewalling is where the abuser just won’t talk to you. I’m not going to talk to you. You don’t exist. And then they ignore you for literally sometimes months until they finally deign to talk to you again, and then you’re expected to be, Oh, so grateful because they’re showering you with attention. So stonewalling is a way to inflict hurt. And they’ve shown in multiple studies that when somebody is shunned, it lights up the same pain centers in the brain as physical pain. It is physically painful to be shunned, to be stonewalled. So, they do this to manipulate to control, and to put you back in your place. So, if they want to make sure that you’re toeing the line, they’ll do the stonewalling. They’ll do the shunning so that you’re feeling pain and you’re begging for their attention. And, of course, they’re not going to give it to you until they feel like they are ready. And then they’ll give it to you, and then you’re expected to be extremely grateful for that. So, it’s a manipulation; it’s a control. It’s a punishment. It’s a way to make you compliant, basically, because then you live in fear of being shunned again. So, you know, what can I do? What can I do to keep from being shunned? You know that kind of thing. So yeah, I hope that answered the question.

Are narcissists addicted to negativity? They can be Yeah, absolutely. They keep creating all these bad events, drama and seem to revel in them. Yes. And that’s partly because of the Drama Triangle. So, the victim all these bad things are happening. Oh, it’s happening, and I had nothing to do with it. Why does this always happen to me bla bla bla bla bla, that is what they tend to do. So, they revel in the negative stuff because they can’t feel the good stuff. So, for example, there are I’ve heard multiple stories from multiple adult children of narcissists. And people who are married to children, adult children of narcissists, that the mother-in-law is just negative, negative negative negative negative and if something good happens she gets loosey-goosey like can’t stand it like ants the pants no can’t have happy you know that kind of thing and will set about to ruin it. Or if something happy happens they’ll immediately try to start bringing up negative stuff because that’s comfortable to them and they get to play the victim. So, everything has to be native Debbie Downer, you know, Danny Downer whatever, because they enjoy it fits their narrative, especially if they’re the victims all the time, if they’re the covert narcissist and they’re always, you know, this is always happening to me, Why does this always happen to me? You know, that kind of thing, looking for sympathy. So, into them again, it’s this weird, disordered thinking where it’s exciting to them, so they can’t muster excitement for happy things. But to them gossip and negativity, and that feels like intrigue. That feels like they’re important if they if they’ve got the end on something bad happening, that they’re somehow important and that they are very much attracted to that. So, you’re not wrong. So yeah, they do they are they love negativity like nobody’s business.

All right, kids, here is my thoughts on this. If you know somebody who is just a drama king, or a drama queen, constantly causing chaos. And this means this goes for every aspect of your life, whether this is at work, whether this is at home, whether this is with your family of origin, whether this is whatever, these people are dedicated to you not living your best life, and all of this smoke and mirrors that they’re doing is to keep you from figuring out that you’d be so much happier without them, basically. So, when you are confronted with somebody who is chaos, chaos, chaos, drama, drama, drama, and they’re a narcissist, get the hell out, get the hell out. You cannot fix them, because you did not break them. If they are histrionic. You know what, I’m not participating in this. This is not going to get you what you want. You need therapy. Here’s a DBT therapist go to town. Same thing with borderline, I’m not playing in this. I’m not going to engage in this. This is not personal. Get a DBT therapist, but don’t engage guys. Don’t play their game.

Don’t do any of the triangles don’t do the Drama Triangle rescuer, persecutor victim, and don’t do the communication triangle. Operator and then the two innocents over here that don’t know that this person is putting words in somebody else’s mouth. So basically, the big thing is don’t play, don’t play. It’s a game. It is a game. It is a game for each one of the cluster B’s there’s a different reason they’re doing it and there’s a different way it presents, but the end effect is that it drives the people around them. absolutely to distraction. It keeps people from living their best life. It creates anxiety and depression. And this person is not going to change if they’re willing to get if the if the histrionic and the borderline are willing to go get help hazzah! That’s great narcissists don’t. They’ll say they’ll go get help. They’ll say they’re going to change. They’ll go three times and then they’ll stop and declare the therapist incompetent. So, narcissists do this to take the pressure off of them. They don’t want us to figure out that they are the problem.

All right, my love’s there that is I have no idea what I’m talking about next week. But you guys so have a drama free week, a chaos free week. Go drink plenty of water, enjoy the sunshine, and hopefully everything goes well. And I will talk to you next week.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

The post 03-26-2023 Chaos and Drama appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Dysfunctional family members are hard to deal with, and it is especially hard if that or those family members are your siblings. Siblings in healthy families are our first friends. In toxic families, dysfunctional families, they are often our first bullies or our worst enemies.

Dysfunctional families encourage sibling rivalry and bullying, and they certainly do not teach the children how to draw boundaries or protect themselves from bullies whether they are siblings or not family. How do you deal with siblings who are abusive? I’ll give you a hint. If you were not related to these people…would you have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly.

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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay. A couple of things, announcements. Um, so go to Krisgodinez.com. Yes. Is, everybody okay, over there? Lucky, hopefully, Lucky will not unplug everything we’re trying to move things around, so he doesn’t rip cords out. Um, okay, a couple of announcements. Um, go to Krisgodinez.com. If you are interested in doing any of the meet-ups, the meet and greets. So those are for right now I’m doing Vancouver. In June, no, May, May, Vancouver, BC in May. And then I’m still looking at doing the Pacific Northwest. I’ve got to get a hold of family members. It’s like herding cats. So it may be like July, August, possibly September for that. So, we’re trying to do all sorts of, you know, school stuff and things like that. So anyway, go to Krisgodinez.com. If you’re interested in looking at upcoming meet and greets. I have a blog that I do every couple of weeks and things like that. Okay. All right now. All right.

So current events, this I read this this morning, and it just I’m so sad and so angry all at the same time. So, stalker kills woman, husband, and then self in Seattle area home along a long-haul trucker from Texas who became obsessed with a software engineer in Washington state after meeting her through social media chat room app killed her, her husband and himself after stalking them for months. So, I want to be very clear. If you have a stalker, do not take it lightly. Don’t assume that they’re going to go away. Don’t assume that they’re not crazy. Don’t assume that they won’t kill. When somebody has a dark triad. Okay, psychopath narcissistic. Machiavellian control freak. So apparently, what this guy did is he obsessed on this woman. She had she had a podcast, and he started obsessing about her, knew she was married, knew she was married. And she’d been married for like 10 years. And the chats, you know, his contact with her started getting weirder and darker, and she didn’t know what to do. And she was like trying to, you know, finally, she started blocking him, and she started doing all this stuff. Well, then he’d find a way around the blocks, he’d get a hold of her, and then he started telling her I am going to kill you, I’m going to kill your husband, etc, etc, etc. She got a restraining order, which was the right thing to do. But she didn’t call every single time he did something because didn’t want to bother people didn’t want to. At least, that was the feeling I got from reading the article. This was on the AP this morning.

So um, here’s the deal. If you have a stalker, what was her podcast? Hold on, let me see if I can find it. Somebody was asking what the podcast is.

04:12
Um, okay. He heard her in an audio chat room on the app clubhouse, where he said she facilitated a discussion for Farsi speakers. Yeah, so that’s how he found her. Um, so basically, if you’ve got a stalker, it doesn’t have to be a romantic partner. It can be literally any cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs that decides to obsess over you and start harassing you. So, he was calling her 100 plus times a day he was texting 100 plus times a day he was bombarding social media, email, etc, etc. If anybody does that to you, that is harassment. Go get a restraining order. Go get pepper spray. Go take some Self Defense classes. So, they, they found the husband’s body at the door. So clearly the guy came to the door, shot him at the door, went into the house, killed her, then killed himself. So, you can’t reason with these people if they are truly invested and intent in their delusional thinking that they need to kill you. They’re going to or they’re going to try. Don’t give them the opportunity, call the police every single time they violate that order of protection.

Now, apparently, I’m the other thing that was happening too is that the order of protection was held up because they couldn’t find him. So, there was a hesitancy to go get an order of protection. And there was the inability to find the guy because he was a long-haul trucker. So, please call the police call the police every single time somebody threatens you don’t put up with it. Because these dark triads, the ones that are truly dark triads that are psychopaths, narcissistic, Machiavellian, they’re crazy. They, they are delusional. They’ve got this whole fantasy thing going on in their head. And when they don’t get what they want, when they don’t get their needs met. So, for example, this girl wasn’t like, oh my god, yes, I’m going to leave my husband and go run off on the road with you. He became violent and angry. It was a rejection. So, I’m guessing there was probably mommy issues going on. So um, anyway, the point being is this just happened. And this was in Washington State.

06:44
So, sometimes I get people that contact me through instant message, and they want to be my friend. And if I haven’t met them in real life, now, I’ve met a few of you in real life where I, Yes, I have chats with you because I have met you, I have vetted you. And I feel comfortable with you. There are some people I have not met in real life that keep trying to get you to get personal. And I’m just like, arm’s length. Because I don’t know, I don’t know. I don’t know, these people. I don’t know these people. So, we are groomed, especially if we have any sort of abuse in our past, to be overly polite. And we’re afraid to have strong boundaries. And you’ve got to in this day and age on the internet when people come at you and start chatting, you don’t know who they are, you haven’t really met them, you don’t know what’s going on with them. You know, and, and we’re groomed to not ask for help.

It’s crazy. It’s like a recipe for disaster. It’s like the perfect storm of Holy crap. You know what I’m saying? Because it’s like we’re groomed not to ask for help. We’re groomed to feel overly invested in taking care of everybody else. So, we don’t want to hurt somebody’s feelings. So, we don’t ask for help. We don’t get a restraining order. We don’t call the police we don’t…. And then what ends up happening is that’s going to get us killed. So how do I explain this. Boundaries are there to keep us safe and boundaries or for people who are abusive, right? Because it’s like, Ah, you don’t get to cross that boundary. And you’ve got to be certain about that. If you’re wishy-washy in any way, when you’re dealing with one of these dark triads, they’re going to mow right over you quite literally, in this last case.

So anyway, I just wanted to reinforce that it doesn’t necessarily have to be a romantic partner, it could be a family member that you need to get a restraining order against. It could be a total stranger. It could be, you know, a coworker. It could be, you know, anyone who is exhibiting these obsessive-compulsive, aggressive, threatening behavior. Yep, not okay. Don’t put up with it. And don’t hesitate to use the court system, and don’t hesitate to go do things to protect yourself. You have the right to protect yourself from an abuser, from an aggressor, from an insane person who’s delusional. You do. Pepper spray, I conceal carry, you know, I carry both, actually. So, I’ve had a stalker before, so yep. And I don’t put up with that crap. So yeah, absolutely. All right. So that’s current events guys. If you need to get a restraining order, get it if they’re if they’re doing anything that is harassing. So, here’s harassing 100 or more texts a day, 100 Or more emails a day, phone call after phone call after phone call after phone call threatening in any way, shape, or form. You know, I’m going to get you; I’m going to hurt you. I’m going to do this. Get a restraining order, or at the very least, file a police report. So, you’ve got a paper trail, so that the next time you have to call, you can reference here’s where I called before and then you go get your restraining order because now you got a paper trail. Right? So yeah. So be careful, be safe. Don’t be timid, don’t be shy. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Don’t be afraid to call the police.

And the problem of it is, and this is I’ve heard this from several people. The police will be like, Oh, why are you calling? Because that’s what the judge told me to do. biatch. And that’s exactly what I would say. Because that’s what the judge told me to do. It’s like you call every single time they violate this order.

10:37
So, huh? Anyway, don’t be afraid to ask for help. And you get you get the officer’s name. If they pull that kind of crap, go over their head. I’m sorry. I’m done. I am done with people who enable the abuser with people who shirk their duties as a public servant. Don’t get me started. Do you see where I’m going with that? So yeah, you’ve got to be, you’ve got to be ballsy, you do. You just got to have courage. And you’ve got to be willing to stand up for yourself and not put up with crap from anybody, no matter who the bleep they think they are, which ties in nicely to what we’re talking about today.

Okay, so siblings how to deal with disordered siblings. Okay, so basically, disordered siblings do not just pop out of the womb. Usually, they come from a family that is disordered themselves. So disordered parents are the ones who set the kids up. So nature, nurture. Is there a genetic component to disorders? Yes, I think there is nurture. However, nature sets us up and nurture if the family is aware, awake, you know, get making sure the kids are treated respectfully and with love because respect and love are the same thing. It is unlikely that they will develop go on to develop a personality disorder or be psychopathic, right? Okay? Because remember, there are two type types of psychopaths. There is the ones that their brains are just wired cuckoo. And then there’s the other ones that are created through behavior.

So, anyway, healthy, normal families ensure that all of the siblings are treated equally and that there is no sibling rivalry. Now, where will there be jealousy between siblings, of course, there’s always going to be a little bit of sibling rivalry going on. However, abusive parents set it up so that one kid is the is the scapegoat or two kids with a scapegoat or three kids with a scapegoat. And one kid is the golden child, and they hammer those kids with, you’re not good enough, you’re not good enough. You’re not good enough. You’re not good enough. And they create this jealousy. They create this nastiness, divide and conquer. That is what abusive parents do. This is what toxic parents do. They divide and conquer. So, I wanted to read a couple of articles. And this is on psychology today.

13:15
So okay, so basically, it’s the parents that set up the sibling rivalry. The parents are the ones that set up the argumentative you know, you’re not good enough, but you’re the golden child, that kind of thing. So, when a sibling is disordered, it makes it very difficult. It does to have a relationship with them because they’ve got the black-and-white thinking. So, we’re either dealing with malignant borderline personality disorder, or we’re dealing with narcissistic personality disorder, or worst-case scenario, we are dealing with narcissist psychopath, Machiavellian. Okay, so narcissistic, it’s all about them. Psychopath, they have no social rules of engagement. They don’t know how to engage. Machiavellian control freak, okay.

So, when you’ve got a sibling that is one of those, it makes it very difficult to have a relationship with them. Now, if the parents are still alive, you can take this to the bank and earn money on it. They will do everything they can to continue the division. They will do everything they can to sow chaos, doubt, fighting, infighting. Pitting one kid against the other. You know, an extreme example of that would be when you’ve seen these videos where the parents get busted for child abuse because they have been boxing each other. Oh my god, yeah. So, but it can be more subtle than that. It can be as simple as bad-mouthing one sibling to another sibling. And creating this, I like you, but I don’t like them. And you need to side with me because, you know, I’m the aggressor, right, so the aggressive parent, the toxic parent, sets up that divide and keeps it going. Because it’s a game of operators.

So, they’re like, Okay, so in a game of operator, the one who holds the power is the one who triangulates the communication. That’s the one who holds the power. So, the parent who says one thing to one sibling and another thing to another sibling and then sits back and watches them argue or hate each other. Oh, my God, what a sick mother Clucker that parent is. So, they’re creating; they’re creating this sibling rivalry. They’re creating this chaos; they’re creating this hatred. They’re creating this nastiness. They’re creating it. So, this is where the siblings come from. They don’t they don’t just pop out of the womb that way. Unless, of course, they’re the type two psychopath, in which case, yeah, they did pop out of the womb that way. But most of them are made. Okay.

So, okay. So, it’s hard when you’ve got the parent still around because the parent is going to interfere. The parent is constantly going to keep the pot roiled. They want that pot being stirred because they need chaos and drama the way the rest of us need oxygen and water. Okay. So, they enjoy it. To them. It’s the greatest entertainment on Earth, and it makes them feel so powerful. They sit back, and they go, Huh, look what I did. Look, look how I made them hate each other. Look at that. I’m powerful.

Boy, when they meet their maker, are they going to be really surprised! You know what I’m saying? So, okay. So, it’s hard when the parent is still there because they’re going to continue to stir the pot. If the parent is gone, though, you and you guys are all adults, and now you’re dealing with siblings that have a personality disorder, there are still going to be fallout from the parents. So, let’s go over that hold on just a second.

17:19
So, this one is stop walking on eggshells for family members. This is Randy Krieger. If you have a sibling with a personality disorder, and that can be any personality disorder, histrionic, narcissistic, borderline, you know obsessive, compulsive, etc. You are likely the walking definition of ambivalence. Your sister or brother has probably hurt you bullied you, but you still love them, even though they still scare you a little bit. Siblings experienced trauma. Being a sibling of someone who suffers from borderline personality disorder or narcissism can be a very isolating and stressful experience. It is common to find yourself overwhelmed at times with feelings of fear, obligation, guilt, wow, the fog, huh? Go figure. Worry confusion, helplessness, anger and even abandonment. You may struggle with anxiety, depression, or complex PTSD, all of which come with their own set of mental health challenges. These things may have been overlooked by your family members, and perhaps by you as well, the focus of the entire family tends to revolve around the person with the biggest problem. So disordered parents have a tendency to ignore the kids that are doing well. You know, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had clients sit on my couch and go, Yeah, my sibling was disordered. And Mom always said, Well, I didn’t worry about you, because you were sane. What?

18:40
No, kids all need attention. You know, it just, Oh, and they play into the narcissistic supply by doing that. So yeah, again, parents can be the problem. Your job is you. If no one has told you this yet, your first and most important responsibility is to yourself. Not to the one that is disordered, not to your parents. It is not your job to help or even save your sibling. It is not your responsibility to carry some of your parents’ burden. So, a lot of parents will tell kids point blank, When I die, you take care of this person when I die. I want you to have contact with this person. When, when I die, you become me, essentially… incorrect response. You’ve been voted off the island. No, no, you don’t have to; it’s not your job. You’re not the parent. You’re not the parent. Everyone’s an adult now. So, if you’re dealing with an adult sibling, and they’re being a jackwagon, that’s not your job. That’s their job. That, that is their problem. It’s not your job. So, I want to be very clear about that. Okay, um, it’s time for things to change. Finding a therapist who specializes in working with family members of people with a personality disorder, so trauma therapist would be great is a great first start to give yourself the best chance of leading a healthy and fulfilling life. This type of therapist will also be able to guide you in how to appropriately interact with your family members without becoming enmeshed or overburdened. There are many books and support groups, both online and in person, that can help you with the common challenges of boundary setting and codependency and healing your own trauma.

So, when you are dealing with a sibling, okay, who is disordered, who is aggressive, who is inappropriate, I want you to be very aware, they will never take responsibility for their own words or actions. They just don’t, and we know this. I’ve told you guys this for years now. It’s like, they don’t take responsibility for themselves at all. So, remember, with a narcissist, they can be over, you know, just, you know, look at me, look at me, look at me, I’m great. Fabulous. Tell me how fabulous I am. They can also be covert victim, victim, everything happens to me and it’s always somebody else’s fault.

21:11
They can be communal, God told me to abuse you, basically, is what they’re saying. So, you and they’ll flip between whatever they think is going to work. So, when you have a sibling who is absolutely abdicating personal responsibility, will not take personal responsibility for their words, their actions, whatever. Do not be surprised if they suddenly reach out to you after not talking to them for God knows how long, and they start blaming you for everything that’s going wrong in their life. So, like, You’re the reason I’m an alcoholic. You’re the reason I don’t have a job. You’re the reason I don’t know. Wow, who, really? Wow, interesting. You’re giving me that much power, huh? What’s up with that dude or dudette? That’s what they do because they cannot take personal responsibility. The next thing that the abuser will do is when they’re not getting what they want if you don’t take the bait if you don’t fight with them. Okay, because remember, that’s what they want. That’s their cocaine. That is their narcissistic supply. They want an argument. And the thing of it is that the little kid inside of you is going to pop up when they start blaming you for their life. Whatever that blame is, right? The little kid inside of you is going to pop up and go. But, but, but….and want to help them understand you did not do what they are accusing you of doing. Do not do that.

I posted something on my Facebook page about how narcissists and abusers are insincere. And they are dedicated to misunderstanding you. They are dedicated to replaying their own abuse with their parent out on you. Don’t you be a whipping post for any of them. Okay, it’s not your job. If they’ve got a problem with the original parent, they probably should be in therapy and working on it so that they’re not hurting themselves and hurting other people or trying to. So, when a narcissist gets collapsed, they don’t get their supply. They’re not getting what they want. They lash out at anybody, literally, and everybody, literally. And when that doesn’t get them the argument that they’re looking for, they will then start smearing you to other family members. And they will lie. And they will say whatever they need to in order to isolate you because they’re angry, and they want you to hurt as much as they do. So, here’s the deal, you, if other siblings are going to side with the abuser, again, take a deep breath. This is the Freudian siding with the aggressor. So, it’s the little kid inside trying to stay safe, and trying to be loved, and trying and keep family members together, that they are siding with the aggressor. And when a sibling does that, you let them go with love.

24:17
If they’re not willing to come to you and say, Hey, so and so has said this about you. And I’m angry. Can we talk? No, because then what the aggressor was waiting for is for you to address it with that sibling so that that sibling can then run back to that aggressor. And then they get all narcissistic supply, and then they lash out again. So don’t play. The best way to win is to not play if somebody sends you a nasty gram out of the blue and you haven’t heard from them in years. Don’t play. It’s not about you. The nastiness that’s in that email is never about the person it’s being sent to. So again, you, you, guns, there’s two pointed out, but boy howdy, there’s six pointed right back at the person who sent the nasty gram. So, it’s really; it’s about them.

So okay, hold on, there are some other articles I wanted to, or is this the end of that one. Okay, it’s time for things to change, okay, finding a therapist paying attention to you. While it may seem counterintuitive, and it takes support, putting your focus on yourself and your own well-being will ultimately result in a healthier dynamic for you and your entire family. You are not alone, talk to other siblings at moving forward support and education groups. This is a post from someone there. My sister Sarah felt such deep hurt, anguish, and trauma that created emotional glass shards that I spent most of my childhood tiptoeing around them. Even though I was younger, my mother taught me to appease Sarah and keep her happy. Hmm, how many of us had to deal with that, which is like keeping a volcano from erupting. So many nights of little sleep, chaos, and being called awful names, I questioned my sense of reality. I was always on edge, trying to keep the peace. This had profoundly affected how I connect with others today. I was always committed to relating with Sarah to help to show her how much I loved her. But lately, my emotional and physical safety has been threatened. My sense of self was completely torn down, my struggles and vulnerabilities were used against me. I was hit, and some possessions were broken. I had to make the hardest decision of my life to cut contact.

26:28
So that’s the thing guys, if even if a sibling is the aggressor or the abuser, if they are calling you names, blaming you for stuff you didn’t do, the best thing you can do is go or stay no contact. And if other family members side with them, okay. You know, they’ve got their childhood reasons for doing it. Send them love, wish them well. Don’t have anything to do with them. Really? Basically, you know? So um, okay, here’s some other articles, and then I will get to the questions.

All right, how to deal with a narcissistic family member. Avoid direct confrontation. I cannot say this enough. Because those with NPD are extremely sensitive to criticism. Calling a true narcissist. a narcissist typically backfires. I can’t tell you the number of times I tell people don’t effing do that. What do they do? They do it, and they’re like, Oh, my God, they blew up. And I’m like, Yes, that’s what they’re going to do. I told you that. So, it worsens the situation, regardless of any good intent behind the criticism or how constructive it is. Those with narcissistic personality disorder cannot will not ever reflect on their own behavior enough to see any truth behind what you’re saying. Instead, they typically become obsessed with proving that you’re the problem and demanding an apology. So, they’ll flip the script, and suddenly you’re the bad guy. If you feel you have to address the issue, try to be smart about how you have the conversation. Someone with NPD will only be receptive to negative feedback delivered in exceedingly small doses and laden with flattery, which is completely insincere. There’s no point instead of launching into launching right into the discussion with your grievances against them. Offer compliments first. I would recommend against this because you’re being inauthentic. Because there’s really not much to compliment somebody who’s an aggressor and an abuser and is calling people names and accusing them of things they didn’t do. So, I mean, you could do the whole I see your worth as a human being kind of thing, but they’re not going to get it because they don’t see their worth as a human being. That’s the problem. So um, okay, hold on. Um, specifically, try using the compliment sandwich, remember, so start with the good stuff, get to the heart issue. end on a good note. I can guarantee you, though, it’s not going to work. It’s not going to work. It’s really not going to work. You can try but the likelihood of success less than 10%. So just letting you know, all right, don’t accept harmful behaviors, period. For the same reason, it is typically futile to confront a narcissist; it is unwise to argue with one; an argument with a narcissist can also quickly turn into verbal abuse or start off as verbal abuse due to their lack of empathy and interpersonal skills. Someone with narcissistic personality disorder may even be able to manipulate you into believing that you’re the one with the problem by gaslighting you, a specific type of manipulation that involves getting someone to question their own reality because those with NPD are concerned with themselves and tend to see themselves as the hero. They may attempt to blame you for their behaviors. Oh, yeah. They view themselves as victims because they refuse to recognize that they play a part in any problem they have. Continuing to argue with a narcissist will only re affirm their perception, or their pre preconception that you are the one attacking them. Instead, disengage, disengage from the conversation and do whatever you can to remove yourself from the situation. If your toxic narcissistic family member becomes aggressive, abusive, or emotionally manipulative, you must make it clear you will not accept that kind of behavior.

So, if they send you a nasty gram, not answering is an answer. That’s basically saying, No buck stops here, I am not engaging, I am not playing your game, I am not going to engage, you’ve already decided on the bad guy, you’ve already spewed your nastiness, you’ve called me names you’ve done whatever you’re going to do.

30:42
Go have a nice life. Bye, you know what I’m saying? Don’t engage its narcissistic supply to them to give them an argument. It is. Okay, um, focus on choices. One key to dealing with a narcissist is first focusing on choices, both yours and theirs. People with narcissistic personality disorder often insist others treat them unfairly. And don’t give them the respect that they due. But they fail to see how their own behavior could impact the way others interact with them. You know, for example, coming at somebody with fangs bared and claws out, yes. And I’m going to give you a real good reception there. You know what I’m saying?

When a narcissistic family member starts talking like this, simply remind them that they have some choices in the situation. For example, remind them they can change how they act or who they choose to be around. Keep in mind that you have choices too, even if you can’t completely eliminate contact. And that is the case; in a lot of cases, and you can’t completely eliminate contact with somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder, you can still take measures to protect yourself and make sure their behavior is less harmful to you. You can choose to limit your time with them or make sure someone else is always around so that you are never alone with them. And that is hugely important. I cannot tell you the number of times I have clients that tell me they go to a family reunion, they go to a funeral, they go to a wedding, they go to a birth, they go to whatever, and the abuser tries to corner them. When they’re alone, they’ll go, they’ll follow him into the bathroom, they’ll, you know, start talking from the next stall, they’ll, you know, crazy, because they want an argument, and they want to be able to say whatever they want to say, and they don’t want witnesses. So, I’m sorry, if you can’t say this in front of the entire family, you probably shouldn’t be saying it. That’s an answer. There you go. And, of course, I am more upfront like that. I’m not going to put up with that crap. I’m not. I’m not. I’m 58 years old. I no longer have to put up with people’s crap. I don’t and you know what, I don’t care how old you guys are, you’re however old you are, you no longer have to put up with people’s crap. That’s the beautiful thing about self-esteem. It’s like boundaries. So Okay, continuing on, and then I will answer questions. Okay.

When restricting your contact with narcissistic family members clearly, communicate your boundaries, make sure they know you will break off contact if certain behaviors persist. So, this is if you still had a conversation with them, and you have been no contact for a while. So, you let them know. It’s like, okay, here’s the deal. You call me names. You get aggressive with me. You accuse me of things I haven’t done, you smear me to other family members, we’re done. So, there’s that.

33:29
All right, that technique puts the ball in their court by allowing them to choose whether or not they’re going to comply, they’re not going to comply. Set limits. And this is by the Taylor Counseling Group that just wanted to let you know that that’s Taylor Counseling Group set limits. Unfortunately, those with NPD often do not have a sense of boundaries, they may resort to manipulating others so triangulating communication, so they’re playing a game of operator to meet their needs. Although you cannot control the behaviors of a narcissist, you can control your own family members of a narcissist often become accustomed to being to enabling narcissists to avoid a fight. But you can refuse to participate in this cycle any longer by setting limits on what you will do. You may stop allowing your narcissistic family member to speak to you disrespectfully anymore or quit agreeing with any of their disparaging words that they say about others. So, they will come to other family members and attempt to smear. So, if the other family members are strong enough in their own self-esteem, they’re going to be like, Ah, no, I’m not. I get to have a relationship with whoever in this family. I want to. You’re telling me not to, because of what you’re saying. But you don’t get to tell me what to do. You know, so it’s stopping that triangulation. Oftentimes what I do when somebody tries to triangulate, and I haven’t had to do this in years, thank God. When somebody tries to triangulate, I’ll be like, Great, let’s get them on the phone. Let’s see what they really said. Because I’m a big enough person. But I can handle it. If they’re going to say that to you in private, then they can say it to my face, period. So, triangulation, you know. So, if you’re a family member and another disordered a disordered family member comes to you and starts smearing somebody else, you’ve got to tell them no, I’m not interested. I’m not interested. I’m not playing. I’m not playing your game. Not going to do it. Have a nice life. You know what I’m saying?

Okay, um, be prepared for the possibility that your narcissistic family member does not respect your boundaries. Those with NPD tend to view themselves as the most important person in the world. despite your best efforts to reach a compromise, the only effective solution may be to cut off contact completely. If this is the case, there is no shame in cutting ties for the sake of your own sanity.
Okay, getting any support and professional counseling, so again, they’re saying get with a good trauma therapist. So that’s this is the Taylor Counseling Group. Okay, one more article.
And this one is choosing therapy Five Tips for Dealing with your Narcissistic Sibling. Assert your boundaries. Number one, boundaries are very, very, very important not only to you but the relationship with your siblings’ strong boundaries can preserve a relationship, while weak ones may lead to you having to cut them off. Setting a boundary may look like this when your sibling berates and humiliates you in front of others, walk away. This may be going to another room, leaving in your car for a bit, or going home. Build your self-confidence. After years of gaslighting and abuse, your self-confidence has taken a beating. It can be hard to see yourself as a good person when you have been told otherwise your whole life. Ask people who know you well to help you come up with a list of your positive traits. Start this list and add to it over time. You can do the same for them. Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi excellent way to build your self-confidence. Know your limits, and when to walk away, wins take sometimes taking a break is the healthiest thing you can do. If you have shared responsibilities, care for elderly parents, etc. You do not need to be all things to all people. Your mental health matters. Take care of yourself engaging in self self-care goes beyond bubble baths. Be kind to yourself is a skill that you can work on. And it pays dividends. Start by examining the way you talk to yourself. Is your inner voice a critic? Or is it a cheerleader?

37:27
The Mountain is you: Transforming Self-Sabotage into Self-Mastery by Brianna West is a great place to start. There you go. There’s a great book. Speak with a therapist. Okay, when to get professional help for healing from narcissistic siblings. Stress about your siblings is spilling into other areas of your life. You suffer from low self-esteem and self-doubt. Your sibling is having a negative effect on you, your children, your spouse, or others in your life, and you need help setting boundaries. You want to look at your childhood and the ways your sibling impacted your mental health then and now. So there that is.

So basically, disordered siblings are not going to go get help, they’re not going to get better, they’re not going to change. They’re not going to they will blame you for everything that is wrong in their life, whether they don’t have a job, whether their adult children are not speaking to them, whether there, you know, an alcoholic or a drug addict, whether they’re lonely, whether it’s all your fault, it’s all who somebody else’s fault. Remember, you, you, you, you real adults take responsibility for their own words and their own choices. If they’re going to smearing you to other family members and the other family members are siding with the aggressor. Let them go with love. Okay. You know, I can’t. If you’re dedicated to believing that I’m a bad person, I am dedicated to not being around you. That’s really what it is. It’s like its people who are willing. Whether they’re family or not, people who were willing to believe the worst of you without speaking to you do not deserve the best of you. If a sibling comes out you and they send you a nasty gram or a nasty text or a nasty email, or an nasty voicemail, or whatever, you are under no obligation to respond. And in fact, I wouldn’t. If it’s abusive, don’t respond to it. That is a response. No response is a response. So anyway, I hope that answers that. So yeah, you just basically, and if it gets worse, if it gets bad enough, get a restraining order against them, if they continue to harass, if they continue to harm if they try to hurt you in any way, shape, or form. If they try to go after your business, if they try to whatever, get a restraining order. You know, especially if you’ve got the texts and the phone calls and the emails and the voicemails to show that they are harassing. So, there it is. Okay, let’s dive into the questions, shall we? Oh, wait, one last thing!
Can ruptured adult siblings repair the relationship or reconcile? Okay, even the death of one or both parents may do little to change things. Often an adult sibling will take on the role of the parent, that was the hardest to get along with and continue to scapegoat a sibling. Needless to say, money and inheritance may also play a role in continued old storylines. So, they’ll use an inheritance to hit somebody over the head with, you know, whether it’s a sibling or their children or whatever my dad did that, you know, my dad wrote more wills than Howard Hughes, depending on who he was mad at that week, he would write them in, write them out, write them in, write them out, write them in, write them out. Seriously, I’m not kidding you. And he would tell us all do what I want, or I’ll write you out, Cuckoo, Unwillingness to discuss the past. So, they’re unwilling to go get help. They’re unwilling to take responsibility for their own stuff. They insist that talking about the past is a sign of immaturity or weakness. Anyone who goes to therapy is weak. That kind of BS, no, strong people go to therapy. Cowards are the ones who avoid it.

So conflating blaming with holding someone accountable. So, they blame, and they think they’re holding them accountable, but in reality, they’re just abdicating responsibility for their own behavior. Not everyone wants reconciliation. One of the interesting findings was that while some respondents reported sibling estrangement is emotionally painful, others did not and said it had little or no ongoing emotional impact. And usually, those are the people who’ve done their own work. Some wished for reconciliations while others did not, which testified to the variations in how sibling relationships define the self. I personally never heard from an adult child estranged from a parent, and I include myself in that number who would not have grabbed for a magic wand to fix things. If it existed. Everybody’s different. You know, some people really feel the sting of the estrangement. Others kind of know, you know, it’s not their problems, not something they said or did. It’s this is their personal issue that they need to deal with their own therapist. So, and especially if you came from a disordered family, especially if there was abuse, you know, that that’s one of the indicators of sibling dysfunction.
So, okay, now let’s dive into the questions. All right to questions

My almost 30-year-old high-functioning autistic sister is being a flying monkey for my no-contact narc mom. She doesn’t understand how talking to our mom is bad. What do I do? You limit what you tell her. I’m sorry, but you’ve got to limit what you tell her. So, when somebody runs straight back to the abuser, so again, that’s siding with the abuser. That’s a form of parental alienation when it’s in a romantic relationship, right? But in a sibling relationship, if someone is not getting it, and she may not get it because of the autism. But if somebody is running back to the abuser and telling them everything, you limit what you tell them. It’s going to be a relationship that’s very surface. It’s going to be like, Hey, how about them Dodgers? You know, or whoever your favorite baseball team is. Dodgers and Giants are mine/ I have a real hard time with that because I grew up with the Giants. But then I really loved the Dodgers because they were the first team I ever saw. And their stadium was awesome. Oh my god. Anyway, sorry. Totally went off on a tangent. So basically, you limit contact. You just, you limit it to like surface. Not serious, not deep, not anything you don’t want to go back to the abuser if she hasn’t figured it out by now that this is not a healthy thing, then she’s not going to. So, you limit. You limit you keep it surface. You just don’t. You just don’t go deep. You don’t go deep, and you don’t say anything that you do not want to go back to the aggressor.

44:00
Okay, um, do narcissistic parents encourage older golden child sibling to abuse the younger ones so that they can turn the golden child into a mini-me version of themselves? Yes, 110%. They absolutely do. So again, if a child of a dysfunctional narcissistic family abusive, if they have not gotten help, again, I cannot say this strongly enough. If they have not gone to therapy, they are going to do one of three things. They’re either going to go crazy because that’s what happens in dysfunctional families. The kid goes crazy. They’re going to become an addict of some sort. Or they’re going to get help and become a champion. Okay? Or they turn into their they turn into their abuser, four things. Sorry, I can’t count. Four things. So, they turn into their abuser because they’re acting out their abuse. And they’re acting it out on other siblings, and they’re acting it out on their own children. And they’re acting it out with friends’ family, who knows, because it’s an inner child thing. They have not worked on the original abuse mom and dad over here. And instead of dealing with mom and dad over here, they decide that they’re going to, you know, what the funny thing of it is, is they usually say things like, I’m never going to act like mom or dad. And then they end up acting exactly like mom or dad because the inner child is the one driving the show. And the inner child is acting out their own abuse, trying to fix it, and it will never be fixed doing that. All you’re doing is creating more karma. All you’re doing is creating more harm in the world. And that’s never going to end well for that person. That’s doing it so.

45:32
Okay. So yes, they do, and the narcissistic parents actually enjoy it, because it’s like, oh, they’re going to carry on the abuse for me. Abusive half-sister is a copy of the narcissist, mom. Yes, they do. 110% They absolutely do. So again, if they haven’t gotten help, if you know, if they’re turning into that abusive parent, no contact, no contact, you don’t need to. They’re showing you who they are, be done, be done. You’re worth more, you’re worth more you cannot save them. And I think that is the saddest part. We oftentimes because we love we have a great deal of compassion, and especially if we knew what they went through growing up if we knew that mom or dad was abusive and was abusive to them and abusive to us abusive to everybody. We know that they’ve got issues, we know that they’ve gone through stuff, but if they’re unwilling to work on themselves and instead are spewing vitriol over everybody and blaming innocent people for their screw-ups. Nope, we’re done. I’m not going to participate in idiot compassion. I can have compassion. I can feel sad for them. I can feel empathy for them from a distance. They do not need to be screaming at me, because it’s not my problem. Does that make sense? Okay. Um, all right.

Do narcissistic parents care if a young younger child would die due to the abuse of a narc sibling? It is like the narcs only want the golden child there and couldn’t care less if the scapegoat would die. Narcissists are very odd around death. So, a lot of narcissists are Munchausen by proxy, and they will harm children in order to get attention. So, if a child dies, and they only care about the golden child, and they can have what is it? They can; what is its viable culpability? It’s like they’re able to do it wasn’t my fault, you know, that kind of thing. And then they revel in the attention that they get. Yeah, they don’t care. They don’t care. They don’t care. And yes, they do put all of their attention on to the golden child because the golden child is most like them. And remember, disordered people, whether that’s malignant borderline, whether that’s narcissist, whether that’s histrionic, any of them have very black-and-white thinking. And everyone must think and do the exact same thing that they think. That’s why when they send a nasty email, or a nasty text, or a nasty voicemail, they fully expect you to engage because that’s what they would do. That’s what they would do. And when that doesn’t happen, that’s when the smear campaign starts because they don’t understand why you’re not responding. Well, you must not have gotten it well, I’m going to make sure you get it. I’m going to turn this person against you so that you’re going to fight with me. Have fun with that. That ain’t never going to happen. Have a nice life. You know, that’s what they do. Because they expect everyone to be as vicious and nasty, and conniving as they are. Because they think everybody thinks the way they do, and people who don’t think the way they do are public enemy number one because they can’t relate to them. They can’t understand them. They can’t control them. They can’t manipulate them. So yeah, that’s Yeah, absolutely. Um, all right.

Both of my parents were narcissists. Now, brother and sister are too. I’m the scapegoat, and they hate me. They have divided me from my family. I have to have something wrong with me since I’m from the same family. What is it? No, you’re not. So, here’s the deal. You can have family, several siblings, and one or two will be personality disordered, and the rest will be not personality disordered. And again, if they hate you, and they’ve separated you from the family, and the family is going along with this. Just leave it alone because they are showing you who they are. And no one in the family is backing you up, and no one is standing up for you, and no one is kind, and no one is plausible deniability thanks that’s the word I was looking for my brain sometimes Thank you.

49:48
So, they’re showing you who they are. So family is not always blood. Family is not always blood. Go find your own family and that could be friends. Coworkers you know, who become friends, you know, it’s like, you don’t need the blood family if the blood family is painful, and harmful and hurtful. Go make your own with friends seriously, get a good therapist, get a good therapist, healthy, normal people do not look to harm others. They don’t sit there at a computer and think what the nastiest thing is I could say to this person. They don’t. Disorder people do that. So, if they’ve, if they’re hateful to you, let them go. If the rest of the family is not sticking up for you, let them go. Let them go. They’re not real family. Real family loves.

Real family loves. Love is the highest power. And I’ve seen a lot of these narcissists profess to be Christians, and yet they spew the most nasty, hateful, controlling, manipulative things I have ever heard. So, remember, communal Narcissts, they do that. They hide behind Jesus’s or Buddha’s robes and profess to know everything about you. I know you better than you know yourself. No, no, they don’t. You know you better than anybody, period, exclamation point, and, and they’ll even put down their own children. You Oh, well, you know, they’re easily led, they’re easily gullible. They’ll believe anybody, even though the kids are in their 40s. It’s like, wow, do you understand you’re insulting yourself? Because clearly, you didn’t do a good job of raising if that’s what you really think. You know what I’m saying? It’s like, wow, they’re just their logic is not there. They’re not logical. It’s why you don’t argue with them. That’s why you don’t respond. That’s why you don’t bother.

So um, so for you, I would definitely get with a good trauma therapist. Get with a good trauma therapist work on self-esteem Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi. Stop walking on eggshells by Randy Krieger. C-PTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker. The Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker. So those are the ones that I would work on. Do the positive affirmations mirror work. Hi, good to see you. Have a great day. You know what, I’m your parent now. You the person on your parent now. I love you, and you are worthy of love. And then walk out. So, mirror work is hugely important when you’re re-parenting yourself from a dysfunctional family where they’re siblings that are still trying to continue to punish you or make you their scapegoat. You love yourself you work on you. You know who you are, rock solid like sun comes up in the East sets in the west. And don’t let any of these Jack wagons throw you off track. They’re going to try. Don’t let them. Don’t let them. Know who you are. You know you better than they do. Guaran-freakin-tee it. But they’ll lie to you and say, I know you better than you do. And bla bla bla bla and no they don’t! No they don’t! And anybody who tells you they know you better than you do. Run. Do not walk to the nearest exit. Okay.
All right, my loves we are done for today and I cannot remember what I’m talking about next week. But you guys go have a great week, and it’s going to be gorgeous here in the Valley of the Sun. It’s supposed to be in the 80s, although it’s supposed to rain, I think, on Wednesday. So anyway, that’s it. All right, you guys, be good to yourselves, super good to yourselves. And especially if you’re dealing with a disordered sibling. You don’t have to have contact with them. You get to decide the level of contact and if they’re abusive, don’t you put up with it! You don’t deserve that. Nobody does. All right, my love’s, I will talk to you later. Bye
54:01
Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.
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The post 03-12-2023 How to Deal With Siblings appeared first on Kris Godinez.

We’ve all been there, and done that, dealing with a disordered corporation that has the office bully, cliques, screamers, and schemers. No one ever teaches us what to look out for when we go to interview for a job or why it is important to read not just employee reviews like glassdoor.com but customer reviews of any place you are interviewing for a job. How do you deal with a backstabbing, idea-stealing coworker? Or, even recognize that the coworker is even doing that?

More and more people are saying that HR does nothing but protect the corporation. That the corporations are only as healthy as the people at the top as doo-doo runs downhill. What are some things you can do to protect yourself should you have the misfortune of having a coworker or worse, boss who is a bully? These and many more questions will be answered in this week’s episode Office Shenanigans.

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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, um, let’s see. Topic. So current events, so current events would be the Alex Murdaugh trial. So, I don’t know if you guys watched it or not. But do you remember how I was talking about crime ID and how prosecutors if they’re smart, they’re and educated in psychology, they watch the perpetrator to see what kind of emotions may or may not be going on. Hi, everybody, I see you in the chat. Thank you. So, Alex Murdoch, when he insisted, uh, first of all, back it up, back it up, back it up. He’s a lawyer. Okay. He insisted on testifying on his own behalf. Huge mistake. If I was his attorney, I would have said hell no, but I wasn’t. And I’m not I don’t play one on TV. But, during his testimony, he was emotionless there was no tears, no distress, no remorse, no upset, no emotion whatsoever. It took the jury 45 minutes to come back and be like, Oh, hell yeah, he did this. So, it’s interesting to me the hubris that these narcissistic types, not just him, but other people that that do heinous acts and then think that they can get away with it because they think they’re smarter than everybody else. But on the stand, no motion, no tears, no remorse, no, missing them, no, nothing, nothing. And he’s got a series of other crimes behind him.

So, you remember last week when we were talking about dark triads when we were talking about sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists Machiavellian, they switch between crimes. So, they’re, they’re equally adept at doing white collar crimes as they are at doing robberies or murder or whatever. And so, it was really interesting to me to watch this trial and see that the jury didn’t buy his BS and that they actually convicted him. So again, it’s they are incapable of expressing normal human emotions. When you lose somebody, you love you are wreck, you’re a wreck. I mean, you are a wreck, capital W wreck. Okay. But if you’re a dark triad, it’s really hard to get that unless you’re a really good actor. And even at that, like I said, there was that one where the kid just, you know, boohoo, who’d on the stand, no tears, no need for a Kleenex, none of that. So, I really wish that our, our judicial system would be trained in psychology, they need to, they need to be trained in psychology, they absolutely must be trained in psychology, for so many reasons. One, you’ve got a bunch of dark triads out there committing heinous crimes, number two, the family court system, a bunch of dark triads out there, committing heinous crimes and doing parental alienation and everything else. So yeah, it’s it was a really interesting trial to watch. So anyway, there is that. So just another example of you get a dark triad on the stand or you get somebody who is disordered on the stand. And they think they’re smarter than everybody else, but they can’t genuinely give the emotion that is appropriate to the situation. Some of them can, but not a lot of them. So anyway, that’s the current events. All right.

So, let’s dive into today’s topic, which is office shenanigans. And next week, I’m going to be talking about how to deal with siblings because I think that is coming up for a lot of us so Alright, so office shenanigans. So, here’s the thing every single article I looked at whether it was Psychology Today or Yale or any of them that I pulled up, every single descriptor was a dark triad. Isn’t that interesting? So, when you are interviewing, let’s start at the very, very beginning, when you are interviewing for a job, how can you prevent yourself from getting into a situation that’s toxic?

So here are the 15 warning signs of a bad company to work for lack of team bonding and communication. So poor leadership skills, unclear objective, limited feedback, disengaged employees, like they’re there, they don’t care, and they’re quiet, quitting all of that. Damaged reputation. So, it used to be that you could go to glassdoor.com and look it up and get the reviews from the actual employees understanding now that that may not be such a great or accurate place to go. But you could go look and look, go and look at it, to see what people are saying about them. The best way to look at a company’s reputation, read the reviews for the company, how many people are happy with them, buying their products, or dealing with them? How many people are unhappy with them? So, if you’re coming across a lot of negative reviews, that’s a huge red flag right there because that says there’s something wrong with the company. Okay. Um, all right. damaged reputation. Okay. unmotivated employees. So external reflects the internal so happy employees make for satisfied customers, which is why I’m saying look at the customer reviews, people engaged at work, invest more time and effort in the work bringing their best each day, they also like to recommend and refer their companies to others. Yes. So, when you are working for a good company, okay, you brag about it, you’re like, Oh, my God, benefits are great, oh, my God, I get all this vacation time. Oh, my God, my supervisors. Awesome. Oh, my God, do you see where I’m going with that?

I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve had people working for large corporations here in the Phoenix area that are like, You must tell everyone not to work for this company, this company, this company, this company, and this company. Why? Because they treat their employees like doo-doo. So just look at the how the customers and they treat their customers like doodoo I mean, that’s the mark of arrogance. It’s like thinking you can just treat people horribly, and that they’ll still keep coming back. No, no, no. Doesn’t work that way.

So, okay, so continuing on, unmotivated employees. So, they don’t they tell if you hear about unmotivated employees, that is one of the red flags of a bad company, unmotivated employees damage the company’s overall look. And they’re also one of the warning signs of a bad company culture. They channel their displeasure into behaviors that decrease customer experience and satisfaction.

No recognition for your work, employee appreciation, it consists consistently ranks as one of the strongest drivers of engagement. And here’s the problem. A lot of companies lately have been going. Oh, here’s a pizza for all your hardware. Ah, people, money talks, pizza walks, you know what I’m saying? So, yeah, you want to get with a company that’s not just giving you pizza and being like, pat on the back. Good job. You know, keep doing all this incredibly hard work. No, you want somebody who’s compensating you and showing you your value. Hello. You know what I’m saying? Like I said, money talks, pizza walks, you keep that in your head because if they’re giving you pizza, and they’re not giving you money compensation, get the hell out, get a different job.

Kris Godinez  08:44

Okay, hold on. Um, unstable work-life balance. Now, when John was working for a company that I shall not name because I can’t because I don’t want to get sued. Here in the valley. IT. You’ll figure it out. Um, he was a nervous wreck. He had no work-life balance. They were insisting that he work, you know, 20 hours a day. They are still very big on hiring right out of college. And they’re still very big on, you know, working people, and they want people to stay until the wee hours of the morning. Well, that might be great if you’re obsessive about your job and you don’t have a family. But if you’ve got work-life balance, then you’re going to want to spend time with your family, your dog, your cat, your you know, whatever your friends Hello. So, work-life balance is huge. So, if you’re working with a corporation that is constantly having you do overtime, and your salary, Houston, we have a huge effing problem. Salary over time. You don’t get overtime, so your per-hour salary keeps going down, the more overtime you work. So, I love it when they go, we’ll give you a pizza. Ah, that that is three hours of my life, I’ll never get back. You know what I’m saying? It’s a work-life balance. And in companies that do this, they treat their employees like slaves, or treat their employees like indentured servants or treat their employees like this less than human. They generally have got at the top, somebody who has personality disorder guarantee and take it to the bank and earn interest on it. There’s a huge reason why I work for myself because I worked with enough corporations to go, you’re disordered, you’re disordered. Oh my God, no, I’m not even going to go interview there. You know what I’m saying? So um, so that that is the sign of somebody that is, it’s always from the top, it’s like, doo doo runs downhill. If the top of the corporation is unhealthy, the rest of the corporation is eventually going to become unhealthy.

Look at what happened to Disney. In the two years, two years it took Bob Chapek two years to completely FUBAR that company. And it had to take the previous CEO to come back and start trying to fix it. So, do you see where I’m going with that? It’s like it rolls down from the top, and it was clear the last time I went there; remember I told you in May, I went there, and maybe employees were unhappy. It was the unhappiest place on earth, not the happiest place on earth. And you could tell, and I’m sorry, but happy employees are what’s the word I’m looking for? It’s wonderful. I love walking into a place where the employees are genuinely happy. Not fake, happy, not oh my god, I have to do this because I need this paycheck. Like they genuinely like what they are doing. It makes me happy. So, for example, when we take our dogs in to get groomed, our groomer loves what she does. She loves the dogs. And you can tell. So yeah, it does. Yeah, okay, hold on.

So unstable work-life balance. So, if they’re insisting that you were over time, and you’re salaried. A lack of company and project direction. A strong company direction is a sign of a healthy workplace culture, from strategy and vision to well-defined projects. Employees who believe in the nation’s direction are more likely to invest in their work because they know it will make a difference. How many of us have worked for a corporation where it didn’t make a difference? Because they were constantly changing their direction, or they were constantly changing their focus, right? That’s part of the reason why I quit working at the homeless shelter is because we got taken over by a guy that was all about the Benjamins and not about the patients. So, it’s like, Ah, no, you’ve got to believe in what you’re doing. They’ve got to have a direction. They can’t just be willy-nilly all over the place, you know? And if they keep changing things on you, or if they get rid of people, and then pile on the work and go, Oh, well, we’re short-staffed, you need to take that up. That’s outside your scope. That is outside your scope. I did not join this organization to do two- or three people’s jobs. And that’s what I see happen. That’s abuse, guys. That’s abuse. Because then if they come back at you and go, Why didn’t you get this done? Why didn’t you get down? Because you didn’t hire enough people to do it. Mofo! You know what I’m saying?

So yeah, it I get very angry about this because it makes me angry that they take advantage, specifically, of younger workers. This is what I see happening. Is that some because I can’t tell you the number of clients, I’ve had to guide through their interview process and what’s going on in the corporation and oh, no, this is, this is this is not good. There. This is outside your scope nope they’re piling on too much. You know, because they don’t know because they haven’t had the experience. And disordered people, like we talked about two weeks ago lie they go for younger and younger targets of abuse. They like to be able to manipulate the naive those that don’t have the experience. So absolutely. If you’ve got children, grandchildren, nieces, great nieces, great nephews, whatever, educate them on the signs of a toxic company because the employers are betting that you guys are going to Oh, Johnny, if you could do me a huge favor, if you could put the eeoc.gov Eeoc.gov. That is where you go to report hostile work environment, racism, ageism, etc. So, eeoc.gov. All right, hold on.

So back to this scope creep. We started talking about that. So, scope creep occurs when employees are asked to work outside their defined responsibilities, which also includes them piling on other people’s work because that’s, that’s not cool. You’ve got your own work. Why should you be doing three other people’s work? It is typically a slow process that happens over time, first presented as a special request, but then it becomes expected. You are going to have to tell the boss No. Now, are you terrified of getting fired, probably. But here’s the deal. If you do not set boundaries with these Jack wagons, they will mow straight over you. And if you see them doing that to other people, then you may want to start looking at getting another job somewhere else. Because if they’re doing it to other people, they will eventually do it to you. A good boss knows not to do that, a good boss knows to go to their boss and go, ah, we need to hire more people. No, we’re not going to pile on more stuff to these guys. They’ve already got enough. Okay.

So going back to John, when he was working for this corporation, they started doing all this scope, creep and piling on work and bad supervisors and all this other stuff. And they were all using the stick instead of the carrot. So, abusers truly believe that if you just hit somebody hard enough and often enough that they’re suddenly going to start producing because they’re crazy, and they’re sadistic. So, when you start doing that to employees, they start getting sick, like physically and mentally. John was to the point with that one job that he was pacing up and down all night. He was nervous wreck. What is this guy going to pull? Now? How is he going to try to blame me this time? Does that sound familiar scapegoat? Oh, boy, corporations are only as healthy as the people at the top. And what I’ve spent seen happening they started promoting up and out the disordered wants to get them out of that particular, you know, group and into another one because they didn’t want to have to deal with them. Well, unfortunately, you keep doing that; those jerks seemingly become into positions of power. But they eventually fail because they cannot actually produce, they can only steal, they can only lie, they can only bully, okay, they need to be removed, and documentation needs to be done. We’re going to talk about that hold on just a second,

I want to go through the 15 warning signs, extreme criticism using the stick instead of the carrot. So, negativity has a significant impact on employee motivation and confidence when feedback crosses the line to extreme criticism slash abuse. It is one of the signs of a bad company culture, bad reputation and reviews, we talked about that aggressive political opinions seep into the workday. So, in our environment, now, it’s not a good idea to talk politics, politics, like American politics, or any politics in the workplace. If there is somebody in your workplace that is aggressively pushing their political view, that can be considered abuse, especially if it is in the policy that you guys do not discuss politics. So that is something else to watch out for, or religion or anything else that could cause division and upset inside the company. So, it’s all about cohesiveness. A good boss creates a cohesive, accepting, kind culture. A bad boss creates division, divide and conquer. That’s what narcissists do if they can get the two siblings fighting each other. They’re in power. They’re controlling, and they win. So, it’s the same thing in jobs.

Kris Godinez  18:18

Absence of core company values, clearly stated company values are a powerful declaration of a company’s intended culture. And they’re also the glue that holds the workplace together. It also helps define what is allowed and what is not allowed. And it sets the tone for hiring. Because in each of these instances, basically, the bottom line comes to you’ve got to have somebody who’s hiring, who’s well versed in disordered people so that if they see signs of this, they don’t hire them, or promote them, or do whatever. So, it’s on an individual level, and it’s on the corporate level. Okay, hold on.

Competition over collaboration. Competition is healthy in the workplace, especially when it is friendly and rooted in collaborative culture. However, culture can take a big, big hit when competition overcomes collaboration. Who does that sound like? That sounds like a narcissist. Everything is a competition. I have to win. That’s what they do. A company that has high turnover rates that is a huge red flag. The pay does not meet the responsibility level. They’re not meeting the industry standard. And that happens a lot here in Arizona. So, they’ll pay somebody less, and they’ll be like, oh, well, but it’s Arizona. And I’m like, Oh, well, but it doesn’t matter. Pay needs to meet the responsibility level. Employees rarely take lunch breaks or breaks at all. Federally mandated guys, federally mandated you get two breaks and a lunch break. Okay? And if you’re not taking a lunch break because they’re making You work on your lunch break, this is a bad company, okay? And they’re just going to keep pushing the boundaries pretty soon. Like I said, you’re going to have to work on weekends, you’re going to be taking phone calls all the time. And that’s another thing. Company phone. This needs to be clearly defined. You are there Monday through Friday, 8am to 5 pm or 6 pm. However late you work, but that’s it. They do not get to encroach on your weekends, period. And I’ve seen them do that. Okay, sense of boredom and unhappiness. So those are the 15 warning signs of a bad corporation.

Now here is work bullying, toxicity, I can’t say that word. This is by Harvard Business Review, how bullying manifests at work and how to stop it. Okay, there’s different types of bullying. So bullying facet, goal direction motivation, so the bullying feature is hostile or hot, or emotional. So, sample behaviors and outcomes, yelling at someone in anger, throwing things, lying to get someone fired, or otherwise make them suffer out of personal or identity-based hatred slash, harassment or intense insecurity. Hmm. Who does that sound like? Sounds like a dark triad. Sounds like a narcissist. Instrumental, aka cold spreading rumors, lies, distortions to remove a perceived threat, a claim of their office space funding position, or other resources. Okay, immediacy, direct, punching, yelling, open blaming, and shaming, sending angry messages, antagonistic and hostile body language indirect, spreading rumors, withholding information taking you off of important chats are taking you off of important emails circumventing and sabotaging.

Okay, visibility overt humiliating silencing someone in front of others telling somebody to shut up that’s abuse; sorry, period end stop, full stop. Full freakin stop. Second, if somebody tells you to shut up at work you get up you walk out, and you quit because you do not put up that is harassment. Covert, gaslighting, withholding information, subtle blaming. Isn’t it interesting how Harvard Business Review is using the terms that describe a narcissist or a dark triad in their bullying thing. And this is Harvard Business Review and business management November 4, 2022, by Ludmil Praslova, Ron Carucci and Caroline Stokes, How Bullying Manifests at Work and How to Stop it okay. Okay, targeting the boss, the bully boss, 65 reported cases there 65% of reported cases is the boss bullying downwards. Horizontal 20%, 21% are coworkers upward bullying by subordinates, 14% And then mixed. So, it causes physical illness burnout, disability, anxiety, depression, PTSD, insomnia, nightmares, loss of confidence, suicidal ideation, loss of reputation, friendships, trust support and professional networks, loss of income, loss of time productivity and revenue. turnover and replacement costs absence in health care costs, legal actions, reputational and brand damage, limited talent pool because people eventually stop working for these corporations.

Okay, so then, how do you deal with these people? These 15 features can be mapped to some of the common archetype bullies. Take the schemer. There are the Screamer, who is associated with yelling and fist banging, like hitting the fist on the on the desk. They do that too. Or the quieter but equally dangerous schemer, so you’ve got the Screamer and the schemer, who uses Machiavellian plotting, gaslighting and smear campaigns to strip others of resources or to push them out. The schemer doesn’t necessarily have a position of legitimate power and can present as a smiling and eager-to-help colleague or even an innocent-looking intern, while hostile motivation and overt tactics aligned with the Screamer bully archetype and instrumental. Indirect and covert bullying is typical of the schemer. A bully can have multiple motivations and use multiple tactics consciously or unconsciously. I would say consciously I don’t think any of this is unconscious.

Okay, so one of the ways that targets of abuse really get hammered by corporate culture is workplace bullying myths. Common myths about bullying, for example, is that it’s simply holding people to a higher standard. Oh, I’m being hard on them. Because I want them to do better. Can I just say Moo? We’re having a competitive, you know, personality, or we want competition. However, bullying in the myths about it hinders outcomes. There is a myth that bullies are often star performers. However, the actual star performers are more likely to be the targets rather than the bullies. The bullies are usually mediocre performers who may appear to be stars, while in fact, they often take credit for the work of others. Moreover, bullies are not motivated by organizational goals. They are driven by self-interest, often at the expense of organizations. Research indicates that bullies often envy and covertly victimized organization-focused high performers who are particularly capable, caring, and conscientious. Not only are bullies not the stars, but one toxic employee negates the gains of the performance of two superstars and likely creates additional costs. The motivation myth justifies bullying as management or motivation, helping low-performing individuals improve. indeed low performers are more likely to experience bullying than mediocre ones, but it does not help them improve. Rather it can further hinder the performance creativity, collaboration, and delivering on business goals due to employee distress like I was telling you about with John.

So okay, ineffective interventions, blaming the target, that’s that’s never going to work, demanding that the target prove that they haven’t done anything to deserve this, that’s never going to work. Placing the burden of proof and anti-bullying work on the target is never going to work. A reactive approach addresses bullying after the individual, and organizational harm has already occurred. However, the first line of defense against all workplace bullies should be prevention. A systematic approach to creating a worker a safer workplace indicates that you need to have organizational systems in place that will effectively screen out dark triads, so facilities that are in are inclusive and psychologically healthy. They do double duty and preventing bullying. effective anti-bullying mechanisms are indicated rooted in organizational justice, transparency, and focus on outcomes and the use of valid instruments and decision makings.

Kris Godinez  27:35

They’re supported by tools that facilitate inclusive, flexible work, voice, and participation, addressing hostile bullying, stopping the screamer, so you can stop the Screamer with obviously selection and training is your first line of defense don’t hire these people in the first place. Organizations legally can and must screen out based on negative characteristics that is demonstrably related to poor performance, such as arrogance in leadership. Training employees and nonviolent communication is another important tool. So, for example, it’s in your workplace culture, it’s in your workplace guidebooks, in your training. So, a violent or bullying would be you call this report this garbage is insulting; you don’t know how to write the way. A better way to say this would be I am disappointed that I cannot afford or use this draft of the report. I need clarity. Please arrange the numerical data in tables and write four or five clear bullet point takeaways. So, in other words, childish behavior versus adult behavior and correction. So, abusers go immediately for the anger, you know, and for the put-downs and for the nastiness.

So, stopping the schemer. So, you want to have performances are based on open ways of okay, so equitable, fair, legitimate ways to obtain rewards, promotions, resource allocation, and other crucial decisions should be based on transparent and accurately measured performance outcomes. eyeballing performance, rewards, bragging, credit, taking, and possessing external markers of privilege are not going to help. Moreover, ensuring justice and organization decisions requires mechanisms for correcting high-stakes decisions when necessary, such as if the information they were based on was incomplete or false. So basically, again, it’s making sure that it’s an open kind of thing. It’s not, you know, Oh, I did all the work, and I’m going to brag, and I’m going to stand up and tell everybody how great I am and therefore, I deserve all the credit. So that kind of thing.

Preventing bullying you basically if you have witnesses, that’s huge. You want to document everything. If somebody speaks to you in a way that is unacceptable. You stop them cold. You will not call me names, period. Okay, you were here. You saw that, right? You heard that right. Um, You’ve just got to be a little bit aggressive about it. You’ve got to be a little bit like ah; I’m not going to put up with us, you know, engaging the I statements. I am not going to put up with this when you can keep a civil tone in your head; please come see me other than that, I’m going to my boss bye. And you walk off you know you don’t put up with bullies; for the most part are cowards, absolute cowards. They like to do hit-and-run screw us. And they like to harm. They like to hurt, they like to embarrass, they like to intimidate. So, standing your ground with a bully, like seriously, body language is huge. Bullies look for people who are kind of unsure of themselves and kind of collapsed in on themselves if you are standing in your like, you will not talk to me like that; I will not put up with that they tend to back right the hell off because they know you’re not going to put up with it. And you haven’t said or done anything wrong. Now, if you’re in a corporate culture where they are making you that guy for standing up for yourself, quit, just quit, just quit. Leave them hanging, you know, it’s I have no sympathy for people, organizations that do that. Okay, so, alright, so that’s that one.

All right, and then how to stop workplace bullying, and then I will get to the questions. Okay, so we’ve gone over the types of bullying, you know, lacks empathy, has few friends, has a need for explaining power and control, struggling with interpersonal differences, feeling empowered by causing conflict or chaos, and making other feels threatened. They suffer from low self-esteem, they may have been bullied themselves. Who cares? Maybe a trauma survivor, I’m going to argue with that. So, a lot of times where I’ve heard is, there’s the new apologists out there. And Kim Saeed just did a fantastic article on this. And she talked about these apologists who are not psychologists who have not studied this stuff. And they’re like, Oh, poor abusers. They’ve been bullied themselves. Poor abusers. They’ve abused themselves. Okay. How many of us survivors were abused? How many of us went on to become abusers ourselves? Nobody. Wow. So, then I’m sorry. These bullies had ample opportunity to go get help, and they haven’t. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, when somebody does the apologist thing, oh, they were abused themselves. Oh, I’m going to make excuses for them. That’s exactly it. They’re making excuses for them. They know what they’re doing. They enjoy what they’re doing. They are sadistic. They are generally dark triads, which means a narcissist, psychopath Machiavellian, no empathy, guys. None, zip zero, zilch. There is no excuse. Let me just say that again. There is no excuse for bullying or abuse, period. I don’t give a flying rat’s ass what their background was. Okay. I don’t care if they were abused or if they have low self-esteem. Go get a therapist and frickin work on it! Ya jack wagon! Do you hear where I’m going with that? They know. They know what they are. They know what they’re doing. They’re not innocent. They’re choosing. They are choosing to be abusive. So don’t fall for that. And if some organization does the whole Oh, well, you know, they had a rough track. So, did I Biotch! I’m not putting up with this. Ah, this ain’t going to fly. So, and don’t listen to the apologists that sit there and tell you that narcissists can change. They can’t. They can’t, and they won’t. And if you ever get a hold of Kim Saeed I ever posted on my webpage. If you can find her article and read it, it’s excellent because she’s absolutely right. There’s apologists out there that want people to believe that the poor abuser are I have no sympathy, zip, zero, zilch. Nada. You got a choice. And if you’re abusing you’re less than dirt, in my opinion, so there it is. All right, where are we? Okay.

Relational bullying, gossiping, ignoring, excluding, or participating in cliques. Physical bullying, dirty looks invading personal space, you know, trying to intimidate, offensive gestures or facial expressions or physical assault, verbal ability, bullying; passive-aggressive comments, negative or critical comments about appearance or personality. So personal attack, demanding bossy behavior, rumors, hostile language in name-calling, stealing, or damaging items. A boss who swears of you puts you down calls your name or physically intimidates you by standing behind you while you work at your desk. A group of coworkers who make snarky comments, make faces at you, excludes you from social activities and make you feel unwelcome. A colleague who backstabs you by spreading rumors and prevents you from accessing resources that you need to get your work done, including causing a paper jam in your printer the day a big report was due healthy workplace environments can make you feel like part of the community. Meanwhile, unhealthy workplace environments where bullying is tolerated can have the opposite effect, and can be detrimental to your self-esteem, your mental health and possibly triggering or exacerbating conditions such as depression, anxiety, substance abuse, trauma, PTSD, and more. Or it feels really familiar. Like you’re back in your family, holy cow. You know, if it feels familiar, get out. If it feels familiar in a bad way, get out.

Okay, so stop bullying at work. So, creating physical distance, keep your distance and keep your options open, keep your cool, gray rock, breathe deeply, and avoid being reactive. They need chaos, like the rest of us need oxygen. So, you’ve got to not engage, like the crazier they get, the calmer you get. Because that’ll do two things. One, they’ll lose it to the point where other people are going to see it because they can’t handle you not engaging because that’s what they’re trying to do, poking the bear trying to get you to roar back at them. And if you’re just cool as a cucumber, Mm hmm. All right, you’re done.

Kris Godinez  36:17

I’m not putting up with this. Drives them crazy. And that’s what you want. You want them to show their true colors. So, there is that? Um, okay, avoid interrupting or provoking bullies to de-escalate the situation. So don’t try to explain yourself. This is the big thing when somebody is dedicated to misunderstanding you. There is nothing you can say to make them see you for who you really are. Because they don’t care. They don’t care. They want you to be the bad guy. They want to take the stuff out on you. They want you to be the whipping post boy howdy. Nothing you say is going to change them. You cannot speak reason or logic to them. Because there is not there. There. Okay. Okay. Practice, okay, practice gray rock. She says practice empathy. I have no sympathy. I can have empathy; okay, they’re screwed up. They’re suffering, and that’s why they’re doing what they’re doing. However, I am not going to practice idiot compassion. I will not allow them to do that to me in my space or to any of my coworkers not on my watch. Have fun with that. If I could throw a middle finger, I would.

Be consciously responsive, not emotionally reactive. Hang on to your confidence. Remove yourself and seek assistance, say something to the bully, and document it. Maintain eye contact stay tall with your shoulders back, and hold your ground. Speak honestly, assertively and diplomatically. Use I statements just like I said, to express your feelings and set healthy boundaries demonstrate respect for yourself and others with a tone that is professional and firm. No yelling, no name calling, none of that be direct and neither passive nor aggressive when setting boundaries with statements such as I am not comfortable with the volume of this conversation. If we cannot speak calmly, I will need to end this call, or I will need to end this conversation. It is not okay to call me that name. I feel uncomfortable being blocked by you. I need you to move, please. You know, document what you said by writing it down and emailing it to yourself. So, you have a timestamp record in case the event happens again, or you need to file a form report. Keep it factual no emotions keep it objective and true. Today, Sue said you’re a loser and I replied, It is not okay to speak to me that way. This is that is workplace bullying, and I will not tolerate it. Boom. There you go. Tell someone and file a report. To tell someone else tell someone else what happened. Tell your boss. If it’s your boss, that’s the bully tell your boss’s boss if you feel comfortable going to HR do so now remember, HR is there to protect the company not so much the employees. But companies don’t like being sued. They do not like being sued. If you do not tell a trusted mentor or even co-worker who may have a trusted boss or supervisor higher up in the organization. That’s a great idea.

Some organizations even allow anonymous reporting of bullying or harassment in the workplace. So, look at your company’s employee policies and procedures. Seek a good therapist work on assertiveness. So, a lot of us coming out of abusive relationships find ourselves in abusive work relationships. Why? Well, inner child so oh my gosh, this feels really familiar. Must be okay. Kind of like the same thing with dating, right? Somebody that reminds us of the person we had the hardest time with. So, it is an inner child issue. It is. Trust your gut. If it feels familiar in a bad way. Do not accept the job. Do not accept the job. Don’t if they’re like, wow, this kind of sounds like you know my abuser. Ooh, maybe not, you know, don’t accept the job. Read the customer reviews, see what people are saying about this place; that’s going to tell you a lot, and yes, I am going to get to the questions. Okay, practice, practice mindfulness, deep breathing, and yoga. Create a support system at work by seeking out like-minded colleagues and find a trusted mentor. Work a mental fitness program such as the financial mindset fix of mental fitness program for an abundant life.

And then it says empower the bystander. So recent study shows that bystanders exist in 88% of workplace bullying incidences, and usually, the usual response is apathy and overlooking what they have observed rather than having the moral courage to stand up and say something and file a report fear is what prevents the silent observers from stepping in fear of becoming a target, fear of retaliation, and fear of making the situation worse. Empowering the bystander is one of the most effective ways to stop workplace bullying. Bystanders need to do one of three things say something right then and there in front of everyone. That’s not okay. I heard what you said. That’s not okay. Say something in private to the bully that wasn’t cool. Or the victim? Are you okay? Do you want help filing a report. Now see, I’m aggressive enough that I would say that’s not okay. I will help you fill out a report. Boom, bring it, bring it. Try me. You know what I’m saying? Um, okay, there’s that tell a supervisor or HR rep do not ignore workplace bullying, or nothing will change. And again, the corporate culture is truly going to influence whether observers are going to stand up or not. So, in corporations, they have got to make it a part of their policy. If you see something, you say something, you know, without fear of retribution or retaliation, the companies where there’s fear of retribution or fear period, are companies that are run by abusers, narcissists, borderlines, you know, that are just cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs that are malignant, you know, dark triads, they’re the ones that are running those corporations because they create a corporate culture of fear. And they create a corporate culture of retribution and vindictiveness. And I’ll get you my pretty, and that is all dark triad.

So, you want to make sure that you stand up for yourself. It’s not going to do any good to cower. It’s not going to do any good to hide. So the fight flight freeze or fawn response, when you’re dealing with a bully nine times out of 10, you’re gonna go to that response that you had when you were a kid, which is why it’s so important to get with a good trauma therapist, so that you can work on that so that you can stand up for yourself and be assertive, you know, no, and I mean it. So, it’s like, I taught my little kids when I was doing the grief, you know, groups, if somebody was bullying, or doing something that one of the kids didn’t like, we taught them if somebody’s doing something, you don’t like, put your hand out and say stop, and I mean it loudly. And then of course, that would get the attention of one of the volunteers and we would go mediate. And that’s what needs to happen, unfortunately, in corporate and culture, corporate culture, because they need to create a situation a culture of support, and no, we’re not going to tolerate this and stop and I mean, it also alerts people around that’s, that’s going to get people’s attention, stop and I mean it, period. That’s going to get people’s attention, and then you just turn around and walk off, go to HR file report, eeoc.gov eeoc.gov. That is for reporting harassment, sexism, racism, whatever. ageism, harassment, hostile work environment, you betcha.

So, and then get with a good attorney. If this is like going on and it’s causing you distress and it’s a corporate culture. And there’s other people get an attorney, get an attorney. It’s that’s the only thing some of these jerks understand. So, but don’t put up with it. There is not a reason on the face of the planet you should put up with it. Okay.

Um, I’ve been asked to put together communication guidelines for my office. Is it worthwhile to include standards for basic civility? Yes, we will office narcs subvert those anyway. Well, but if you put them into the guidelines for the office, and they start going around them, then you have a case for getting them fired because they’re not doing what they should be doing. So, in those standards for civility, no named calling so it’s basically what you’re going to do is you’re going to do a list of deal breakers. What will you not put up with no name-calling? No disrespect, no line, no gaslighting, no cheating, No stealing, you know, the whole thing but civility? Yeah, you’ll probably write it out, and now it’s in black and white, and if they are going against those guidelines. Now you have some, now you have some paper trail that you could go with so yeah, absofreakinglutely!

Is it very common for companies which are supposed to help people to have the most toxic people working for them? Yes. Because remember, abusers whether they are dark triads, narcissists, malignant borderlines, are attracted to positions of power. Okay. I think I’ve told you the story before. I had a peer support that worked for me that was an absolute abuser, I think, in my personal opinion, and he enjoyed laughing at the severely mentally ill, not okay, not okay.

Kris Godinez  45:43

So, we had a couple of clients at the homeless shelter more than a couple, but the two I’m thinking of that had schizophrenia, and they literally couldn’t follow directions because they were too busy listening to the good voice and the bad voice scream at each other. And then, the peer support was trying to give them directions. And then he would just get mad and yell at them. And I’m like, Ah, you Stop that crap right here right now. They can’t. And so, what I did is I had one person stand on one side of the peer support, another person stand on the other and scream and yell, and then me in front, try to give directions. He still didn’t get it, but at least he kind of was like, oh, no, like, yeah, that’s what they’re dealing with. You need to stand down, basically sit down and shut up. So yeah, they are attracted to positions of power. I found that in care work, coworkers were very much more toxic than in other companies. Yes. And the problem of it is, like I said, care workers are entrusted with the most vulnerable people in our population, the elderly, the demented, the mentally ill, and the very young hmm. Those are all easily abused populations. And it frightens me how many care organizations are filled with abusers, usually covert. They’re usually really good at hiding it. They’re usually really good at, you know, pretending to be nicey nicey. But then as soon as they’re not being watched, they’re, you know, yanking people around or, you know, hitting them or abusing them in some way, shape, or form. So, yes, there, you’re 110% Correct. And unfortunately, it starts at the top, and it rolls down. So, you want to take a look at who runs the company, and you want to take a look at what their policies are. And you want to take a look at how they deal with abuse claims. And, you know, sometimes my mom think God was in a really good care facility. There was no abuse going on, which was, and they loved her, which was really good. So, we knew she was really well taken care of. But we heard of other care facilities in that town where people were afraid to say anything because they were afraid of their loved ones being abused because they couldn’t put them into a care facility that was different. So, you cannot allow fear to stop you. Because if they’re doing it to your loved one, they’re going to do it to somebody else. And this is where you get the media involved. This is where you put as many eyes on it as you possibly can. There are cockroaches they scatter in the sun. So yeah, it’s unfortunate, but yes, in care positions, and I think we’ve talked about this a few weeks ago. They are attracted to positions of power, so they’re attracted to psychology. Yay. They’re attracted to medical nurses, doctors, counselors, peer support, eldercare childcare. That’s where you’re going to find nurses are also attracted to being judges, police officers, and attorneys. So anywhere that there is a position of power, they’re going to be attracted to that they’re going to want to be in that position because gives them that that narcissistic, Cocaine. you know what I’m saying? So, there is that so yeah, you’re not wrong.

Um, any advice for dealing with a boss who’s a narc? enabler in denial? Okay. It depends on the corporation. So, if they’re enabling the abusers around them, and they’re denying that these people are doing this, they’re either a narcissist themselves, or they’re just completely ignorant. So remember, flying monkeys are one of two things, so they’re either narcissists themselves or they do not understand how narcissists work and how detrimental really they are to the company because it forces all the good people out, and then pretty soon you’re left with a complete doo doo show, because it’s just a bunch of self-serving narcs that are not going to really do anything except trying to stroke their own ego, so I would, you know, you could try to educate them. But if it’s clear that they’re narcs themselves, their narcissistic themselves, and that they are enjoying the drama, and they’re enjoying the other narcissists, then I would start looking for another job. I really, truly would.

Okay, so next week, we will be talking about dealing with siblings. So, we’re going to be talking about dealing, if you’re dealing with a dark triad sibling, if you’re dealing with a borderline sibling, if you’re dealing with a disordered sibling, if you’re dealing with somebody who’s playing the games, a flying monkey sibling, we’re going to be talking about how to deal with that because that seems to be up for a lot of people. So all right, I think that’s it. You guys. Have a great week. I will talk to you on Wednesday with any questions I did not get to. And then next Sunday, we’ll be dealing with siblings. All right, my loves, you guys. Be good. And take care of yourselves, and I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

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Why are dark triads so damn dangerous, vindictive, and violent? What is psychopathy? What makes them decide to kill themselves or others? In the first half of the show, Kris talks about what is a dark triad which is narcissism, psychopathy, and control, and what motivates them to the acts of stalking and or violence. In the second half of the show, Kris answers any questions that come up about the topic of dark triads or abuse.

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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, cool. Announcements. Mmm hmm. I made it home over the grapevine that was a little scary. We cut our trip short. So came back on Wednesday. And as we were driving over the grapevine it started snowing and it was foggy. And people were still doing 80 miles an hour. And I’m like, clearly none of you people have driven in the snow before. So that was….. glad I’m home. Glad I’m home. So, there is that the next one is going to be in Vancouver, BC that will be May 20. So, May 20. Vancouver, BC is the next meet and greets. So, you go to Krisgodinez.com and get your tickets there. So, and I will tell you where it is after you’ve bought your tickets. So there that is but it’s going to be in Vancouver, BC. So, there is that? And then yes, I am doing Portland, Oregon. Boise and Salt Lake City this summer. I’m thinking July might be August, not sure niece has still not gotten back to me. So, I need to figure. I mean, she has but she’s like, I don’t know what I’m doing and like that’s okay. So, we’ll figure it out. So, there’s that. Okay. I think is there any other announcements to think? No, I think that’s it. Okay. All right. So of course, my books are available on Amazon. So, you, You Can Lead a Horse to Water But You Can’t Make Him Cha Cha is about why some people get involved in relationships that are abusive and stay in them and others leave. The other one is what’s wrong with your dad, which is my story of my life of how I got to this point because of my crazy family. So, there is that, um, is that there’s another one Oh, so you want to be a therapist. So, if you’re interested or you know, someone who’s interested in being a therapist, I give them the lowdown on what it’s like to really be a therapist, because I don’t think people the movies don’t really do justice to what we do. So there that is and of course they do a lot of things that I’m just like, No, no, no, no good therapists would do that. Thank you.

All right, today heavy topic, we’re going to be talking about psychopathy. We’re going to be talking about dark triad. So, the ultimate control the ultimate control is when an abuser kills themselves, kills the family, kills the dog, kills the pets… kills, kills, kills. They’re killers, they’re awful. They’re horrible. So, like I said, every, every month for the last 20 years, there’s been two incidences of mass family killings but why do they? Why do they kill their family and why do they kill themselves? Or why do they not kill the family but kill themselves? So okay, lots of stuff we got to talk about here. psychopathy is not in the DSM five. Why? I have no idea I The powers that be honestly. I don’t agree with a lot of what the APA does. So, I don’t know why it’s not in the DSM five. It is a thing. There are psychopaths out there. Absa-freakin-lutely.

So, okay, so it’s what we have in the DSM five now is antisocial personality disorder. So let me read you what antisocial personality disorder is, okay. Okay, hang on just a second failure to conform to basic social norms in ways that violate the law, repeated violation of the physical or emotional rights of others. Well, that’s every abuser you’ve ever had to deal with. Lack of stability in job and home life may go through long periods of unemployment, for example, even in localities or situations where the jobs are readily available. A lot of narcissists do that because they’re dark triads, irritability and aggression may get into frequent fights or rages. Yes, lack of remorse after harming someone or their property, like they just don’t care. They just don’t care. Don’t care there is no empathy there. They cannot put themselves into somebody else’s shoes and go oh my god, what must that be like? They don’t do that. Consistent irresponsibility. Sounds like a lot of narcissists, recklessness, impulsivity, deceit fulness. Childhood diagnosis or symptoms consistent with conduct disorder should generally be present before the age of 15. So that is anti-social.

Now the hare psychopathy checklist, as you will see very similar. A lot of times we call them charming narcissists. So, um Are they narcissist or the psychopath? Well, here’s the thing. There’s the here 20 traits assessed by the PCL-R score by the pair psychology, you know, psychopathy thing, okay? glib and superficial charm, grandiose, extremely high estimation of self. Well, that sounds like a narcissist need for stimulation, they get bored in credibly easy, like they need that constant adrenaline hit that kind of thing. Cunning and manipulative. So, when I was working in the homeless shelter, and I know I’ve told this story before I was dealing with this psychopath, essentially, there was a sex offender.

Kris Godinez  06:30

He… my coworker said, you could see the flames of hell burning in his eyes, and you could he was just absolutely 110% I would not turn my back on him. And I would not be in the room alone with him. He was always looking like a shark. It was like he was constantly, you know, reading, who he could take advantage of like, just who’s vulnerable? Who can I get? Who can I you know, and you could just see it, you know, and it was one of those the psychopathic stare. I don’t know if you guys have ever seen that it is chilling. It’s like they’re looking at you. But they’re looking right through you. And they’re trying to assess where they can get you physically, mentally, emotionally or otherwise. So yeah, they are terrifying. I do not like being around them. That’s one of the reasons why I’m glad I’m no longer working at the homeless shelter. I did love it, though. Oh, my God, it was dangerous. And it was fun. And it was great helping the ones who wanted to be helped. Oh, my God, I mean it. For every psychopath, there was at least 10 others that really did want to get help. So that was, that was nice.

Okay, lack of remorse, shallow effect, superficial emotional responsiveness. So, in other words, they will describe Oh, I’m sad. But there’s no nothing that tells you that they’re sad. Oh, I’m, you know, I feel remorse, but there’s nothing that tells you that they feel remorse. Generally, when people feel remorse, they feel terrible. Oh my God, I am so sorry. I hurt you. I own it that psychopaths, narcissists, they’re never going to own their ship ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever on this or any other planet, they’re never going to own it ever. So, they’re superficial. It’s like they say the emotions, but they don’t feel them. And a great example of that is I was watching Oh, signs of a psychopath on ID channel. I know, I watched for relaxation. But I find it fascinating because this is what I deal with. So, um, signs of a psychopath. This kid had murdered as a teenager was coming up for parole, and in his parole hearing, he was sobbing. But he never needed a Kleenex. And there was nothing coming down his face. And the prosecutor got it. It’s I was like, Oh, thank you, Jesus, that you found that that you realize he was playing you. And so, Oh, oh, I feel really….. You know, and he was doing all that sounding like he was sobbing never needed a Kleenex, no snot coming out of his nose, no tears dripping down his eyes. But he was doing all of that, you know, that kind of thing. And there was nothing going on. And the prosecutor totally called it out. And I was like, Thank you for studying psychology. And I’ve seen them do that. When I used to do couples counseling, I would see them do that in the session to get the sympathy of the target of abuse. And I would have to point out, you don’t need a Kleenex, you’re not really crying, and that’s when they would storm out of the room.

So anyway, there is that okay, continuing with the checklist. I’m callousness, lack of empathy. They’re callous. There’s no empathy. They can’t. You know, John, and I will read the news in the morning. Like this morning, there was an immigrant boat that capsized off the coast of Italy. And 40 people died and both of us were like, Oh my God, you No, that’s terrible and 80 people survived. So, thank God they survived. But it’s, it’s like, if you’re not moved by that there’s something wrong with you, because that’s the loss of a human being, children usually. So, you know, empathy is that ability to go, oh my god, what would that be like to be in that little ship, you know, crossing these this ocean in the middle of winter or trying to get somewhere safe only to be capsized. And now your entire family is decimated. It just boggles the mind.

Okay, so continuing on parasitic lifestyle, OMG. So how many of us have been involved with a narcissist, dark triad, that refuse to work, that refuse to get a job that refuse to, you know, contribute that we refuse to do the childcare? I’m not babysitting my kids, you’re not babysitting a jerk. You’re those are your children. You’re watching them? You know what I’m saying? So, it’s like, they don’t want to contribute to the house. They don’t want to work. They don’t want to do housework. They don’t want to help bring in money. They don’t want to….. nothing. Me, me, me III more my genitals. That’s them. So, they’re parasitic. They live off of other people, their con artists. A lot of times, they’re con artists. So, they’ll, you know, oh, yeah, this next big thing? Oh, yeah. And pyramid scam. You know, they’ll get involved in pyramid scams, because they want something easy. They want something for nothing, is basically what they do. So, they do a lot of pyramid scams, they do a lot of cons, that kind of thing.

Poor behavioral controls. So, in other words, they cannot control their behaviors. Yes, and no, I’ll agree with that, to a certain extent, a lot of psychopaths read the room. Like I said that shark who’s vulnerable, what do they want? How can I make myself into what they want, so I can get them? That kind of thing. But when a when a psychopath or a narcissist has been cornered and exposed, they’ll explode. They’ll have rages, they’ll scream and shout and flip the script and all this stuff. So, You betcha.

Okay, continuing on. sexual promiscuity. So, affair, after affair, after affair, after affair, trying to get their partner to do sexual acts that they would not be comfortable with trying to film them, trying to get them engaging in a menage a trois or orgies or things like that. Because then what they do is they turn around and go see You’re just as bad as I am. So now, again, if everybody’s on the same page, and everybody is Okay, is everybody on the same page, okay, with you know, multiple sex partners. That’s great. Generally, though, psychopaths and narcissists, they are sadistic, they’re sadistic. And so, they enjoy making somebody do something that they don’t aren’t comfortable doing. So that’s kind of the difference, their sexual promiscuity in that they’ll have affairs multiple affairs all the time. They also do kind of like serial affairs, they’ll stick with one person for a while until they’ve used them up, and then they’ll switch to somebody else.

Early behavior problems. So, this is where the conduct disorder comes in. So early behavior problems would be, you know, lighting fires, arson, stealing, kleptomania, you know, not adhering to societal rules, they don’t adhere to societal rules. Lack of realistic long-term goals. Oh, my God. So, this is both with narcissism and psychopaths. They feel that they should be given everything on a silver platter. So, they don’t have realistic long-term goals. They’re like, well, you know, I’m going to run, the CEO of this company and done it out of that yet. They haven’t done anything to get to be a CEO. Does that make sense? So, they’ve got this like magic thinking fantasy kind of, I deserve, I deserve this. I need to be a manager. I need to be an owner. I need to be this but they’re not doing anything to get there. And they refuse to go through the normal steps starting at the bottom of the ladder and working their way up. Nope, they want to jump straight to the top and it doesn’t work that way. So, they’ve got some really unrealistic long-term goals. They don’t think normally which is not surprising. Okay? Um, lack of real

Okay, impulsivity. So, psychopaths sometimes are very cunning and very methodical. But if they’ve got other things going on, which a lot of them do, because remember when you start because this is on a spectrum. So, as you start sliding further and further down the line, all of the personality disorders start overlapping impulsivity plays into that.

Kris Godinez  15:03

So, it’s kind of that there was an old Buffy episode, where she was hanging around with, oh, the girls named, why can’t I think of her name? Anyway, the bad influence. And she was, you know, like, Oh, I see I want I take so she like, you know, smash the jewelry case and grab the stuff and ran. So that’s kind of what psychopaths do is like, if they want something, they’ll just take it without thinking of, you know, consequences because they don’t think the rules apply to them. So, they’re very impulsive,

Incredibly irresponsible irresponsibility. They don’t pay debts; they don’t honor bills. They don’t, you know, take responsibility for what they say or do. They’re incredibly, irresponsible, failure to accept responsibility for their own actions. Yes. Many short-term marital relationships. So, they’ll get involved in a relationship and then divorce and they get involved in a relationship and married, divorced, married and divorced, married, divorced, married, divorced, it’s the same thing with the affairs, juvenile delinquency, oftentimes, revocation of their conditional release from a jail or prison and criminal versatality. So, in other words, they can switch from, you know, robbery to murder, or, you know, con artist to, you know, white collar. I mean, it’s they’re incredibly versatile in their criminality. Yay. So, all right, so there is that I hope that kind of explains. They’re very similar. Antisocial and psychopathy are very similar. But it’s like psychopathy, antisocial, borderline narcissist. All of these personality disorders are on a scale, you know. And as they slide further and further down the scale, they all start overlapping.

So, the question I got is, why in the world, would an abuser kill themselves? Well, plenty of reasons. So, it’s the ultimate control. And especially if they’re killing themselves and taking out personal property. Okay. So, let’s say for example, that there’s a divorce going down. And so, the wife and the kids get the house and the car and whatever other property, an abuser will burn the house down wreck the car kill themselves as the ultimate, it’s the ultimate control. It’s the ultimate screw you I call it a hit and run screw you is what it is. So that’s the only time they’ll do it is if they’re not assured of winning. So, the more psychopathic they are, the crazier they are, essentially, the more likely they are to harm themselves and harm somebody else. So, in other words, let’s work this through here. narcissists. Yes. If it was just narcissism, no, I don’t think they would kill themselves because they’ve got this delusion, that they’re the greatest thing since sliced bread and they’re God and so why would they kill themselves, right? But if you throw in psychopathy on top of that, now you’ve got this really, truly delusional way of thinking, this impulsivity, like really impulsive, like they don’t think things through, it’s kind of like, you know, healthy, normal people can kind of go, Oh, if I kill myself game over for this lifetime, you know, that they don’t.

To them. It’s kind of like, all show you all fix your wagon. And that’s what they do. They’re very vindictive, they’re incredibly, it’s like you’re dealing with a two-year-old on a bad day. Seriously. So, it’s, it’s impulsive, and it’s vindictive. And so, they’re doing it to hurt, to harm, to get the ultimate control, and it’s in their sick heads. It’s like, ha, ha, ha, you’re going to feel guilty because they know you feel, and they don’t. And, uh, ha ha, I destroyed all the property that you were going to get in the divorce. They’re, they’re evil, guys. I’m sorry. And if you throw that on top of with a family split, like let’s say there were little kids involved, right? They’re not thinking about the kids. They don’t care about even their own children. This is how, what’s the word I’m looking for? This is how debase they are. This is how vile they are. This is how selfish they are. They don’t care what it’s going to do to the kids.

So, when a parent commits suicide, it affects the kids it does. When a parent kills themselves in the middle of a divorce, it is definitely going to affect the kids. You’re going to definitely need to get those kids into trauma therapy. Absolutely. 110% Not only to deal with the divorce itself, but to deal with the fact that the parent that was abusive, was abusive, and that they were mentally unhinged, and chose to punish you and the kids by burning down the house, destroying the car blowing through the marital assets, etc., etc., etc. So basically, they’re vile. They don’t care, we literally our children, with them have no more meaning to them than this pen. It is something to be used as far as they are concerned. And in a scenario like that the goal of the psychopath is to turn those kids against you see, Mommy made me kill myself see, mommy’s a bad person. So, I had to kill myself. So, they’re from the grave, trying to do parental alienation. If I could be throwing middle fingers, right now, I would I hope the son of a bitch is roasting in hell, I really do. Because that is vile, because those kids are going to have to live with this. And those kids are going to have to go through trauma therapy, in order to help them understand it had nothing to do with them had nothing to do with the mom had everything to do with the abuser. Period. Absolutely. Period. So, it and if you’ll notice, and I’ve talked about this before, abusers a lot of times we’ll use the threat of suicide to control the soon to be ex because they’re counting on the ex coming back and being afraid of that person actually killing themselves. And you know, what, if they actually kill themselves, that’s on them. That is their choice, it is 110% It is never the target of abuse is fault for leaving. It never is. But they will use that because they know we feel. They know we have empathy. They know we go, Oh my God, no, I don’t want that person to do that. Of course, we don’t want that person. We don’t want anybody to do that. Even if they were our abuser. We because we actually have a soul. You know, it’s like we actually feel we actually have empathy. We actually are like; I want everyone to win. And I just want everybody to be conscious. Wouldn’t that be nice? What a wonderful world that would be.

Anyway, so that is why they do that they’ve got an overdeveloped sense of what’s the way I’m thinking of overdeveloped sense of revenge, overdeveloped sense of control. And they literally in their crazy magic thinking are going, I’m going to control from the grave. This is how I’m going to get my way. This is how I’m going to win. Because remember, it’s it has to be a win for them. It can never be equality ever. They have to be one up, always. So, in their crazy mind, they win. Even though they’re dead, and the house is gone, and the car is gone. And the money’s gone. And it’s insane. It’s insane, short answer. They’re insane, long answer. They’ve got multiple personality disorders going on. So, it’s the impulsivity that does that. And the worst ones are the ones who kill whole family and then kill themselves. Because again, control because they’re trying to control. It’s like, See, I am God, I can take away your life on God. If that’s not evil, I don’t know what is. So yeah, that’s why they do it. It’s control. It is the ultimate control in they’re crazy minds. They win. So yeah, it’s things that make me go Oh, my God. So yeah. So, this is why they do things.

So, the next article I pulled up so that other one was from the Robert Hare you just look up the Robert Hare psychopathy evaluation. Um, do psychopaths really understand that they’re hurting people? I don’t think they care. So, there was primary psychopathy, and there’s secondary psychopathy. So, I wanted to talk about this. So, hang on just a second.

Kris Godinez  24:23

So primary psychopathy. Remember how we always talk about nature nurture. Okay, primary psychopathy is when there is definitely something going on in the brain. It is genetic, it is something’s wrong. This person cannot process emotions or empathy or whatever. So that’s primary psychopathy. Secondary psychopathy is environmental. So, for example, that great example would be Dexter right. You remember the show, Dexter? So, he witnessed violence and this, that and the other thing is, so then he became a serial killer, but he was a serial killer that only To kill bad guys which Okay, whatever. Um, so it’s environmental. So primary is genetic, secondary is environmental. Now here’s the thing though. Here’s what I see abusers do. Oh, I had a bad childhood who feel sorry for me. Okay, I think a lot of us had bad childhoods, especially those of us raised by a narcissist or, you know, users. We didn’t become, you know, violent or hurting people or lying or cheating or stealing or violating societal rules or any of that. So, when they give the excuse, oh, I had a bad childhood. Ah, guess what, it’s a choice. You have a choice. Either you’re going to help other people and be a real human being or you’re going to be a selfish person and go hurt people. Not okay, not okay. So don’t fall for it when they do the hole. Oh, I had a bad childhood. That’s why I screamed at you. That’s why I hit you. That’s why I  don’t buy it. Don’t buy it. It’s not it may explain their behavior but it sure as frick does not excuse it. Okay, does not excuse it at all period. So, there is that they do know that they are hurting you, but they oftentimes are sadistic. So, there is a role of childhood abuse and neglect in people that grow up to become abusers. So yeah, you can either grow up to become an abuser yourself or you become a champion, or you start using drugs and alcohol to try to numb it. So that’s why it’s so important to get kids into therapy when there has been abuse

Okay, so this article also Psychology Today, Nine Clues That You May be Dealing with a Psychopath. Okay. Currently, researchers have returned to using the term psychopath, which they should, some of them use that term to refer to the more serious disorder linked to genetic traits. So that’s primary secondary. Okay, okay, number one, uncaring the PCL, which I just read you it lists callousness and lack of empathy, cold heartedness. dis-social personality. They’re dis-social, they’re antisocial. callous unconcerned for the feelings of others. Okay, shallow emotions. I think we’ve talked about that. They don’t experience guilt, shame, embarrassment, etc. They have a poverty in affective reactions. They lack remorse or shame. irresponsibility. We talked about that, insincere speech. So, they’re glib, charming, charming Narcissus is what we used to call them overconfident narrowing of attention. So, they can’t handle things. Everything going on. Okay, that yeah, they’re kind of Yeah. Yeah, they can’t handle multiple things going on. It’s like they’re very, they’re like a shark. They’re very centered. And, you know, this is what I need to do. And this is what I need to get done. Very selfish inability to plan for the future. Violence. Those are all things to watch out for.

And now I wanted to talk about because we’re running out of time, I wanted to talk about the link between malignant hysteria and female psychopathy. Okay, there are females that are psychopaths, Absa- freakin-lutely. They present a little differently though, than male psychopaths. Malignant hysteria is the heart of the female psychopath. Okay, hold on, I wanted to get to. Okay, newly proposed psychopathy descriptors specific to women. They wanted to revise the P CLR. Because it’s mostly geared towards men. So, with the female psychopath, a lot of the same stuff is there. But there is a lot of histrionic there’s a lot of so the superficiality pathological self-focus, manipulative behavior or absence of remorse, pseudo emotionality, slash unstable affect. So, they’re all over the place. There, you know, fake emotions, raging the whole thing, empathic deficits, opportunistic, interpersonal relationships. They use people like nobody’s business, and they’ll fake the emotions to do it. Indiscriminate sexual behavior. And yeah, so there are female psychopaths as well.

Now this last article I wanted to read is called my abuser killed himself from hopeless to healing. So, this woman was in a vicious custody battle. The ex was abusive, he abused the kids, he had ample amount of monetary means to litigate this person to the point of financial abuse. And when it looked like he wasn’t going to win, so here’s the reason why he killed himself. This is what I wanted to read. Okay, our most recent custody evaluation exposed his lies, verbal assaults, and emotional abuse of my son Jake. The custody evaluator recommended that I receive more parenting time and that Alex seek help from a parenting coach. She also disagreed with Alex’s motion to change Jake school. Once the report came out, Alex began to distance himself from our son and told me that he would only see Jake, if Jake, who was 14 at the time arranged the visitation.

Three months later, Alex’s brother called me Alex had killed himself with a gunshot to his head. My reaction caught me off guard, I was crying. It was a pit in the stomach. So basically, you know, she had to go through what the heck happened and what her counselor told her was, this guy suffered narcissistic mortification. In other words, he lost, he lost, and he wasn’t going to win. More than likely, his attorney told him he wasn’t going to win. And so, once he realized he wasn’t going to get what he want, he put it on to the son who’s only 14 Again, trying parental alienation. And then when he realized that wasn’t going to work, he killed himself. So again, it’s all about power and control. This one is called my abuser killed himself from hopeless to healing by mild High mamas. And it was in motherhood. So, you can look that up.

So, there is that so basically, the reason why they do what they do, why they kill, or they kill themselves, why they kill other people who think you why they kill the family, and then kill themselves. It’s all about control. It is all about the ultimate control. If you see these in the news all the time. And it’s horrifying for the family that’s left behind. It’s horrifying for the children. It’s horrifying for the ex. You know, it makes no sense because you and I would put the kids first we would be like, nope, these are my kids. No matter how angry I am. No matter how hopeless I am, I cannot kill myself because these little guys need me. That’s what a healthy normal person would do. Right? They’re not healthy, they’re not normal. Let me just be clear, they’re cuckoo for freaking Cocoa Puffs, okay, there’s no other way to put it. And in their mind, they would rather be dead and leave you holding the emotional bag with the kid’s parental alienation from the grave. And to leave you destitute, burn the house down, destroy the car, plow through all of the finances, whatever and leave you destitute. It’s the ultimate control. So, they have this realization, they’re not going to win. Oh, I know. I’ll do the ultimate win screw up screw you know, hit and run Screw you. So that is what is going on.

Kris Godinez  33:51

So, if you are in a situation like that, if you have a situation where the abuser has killed themselves, for the love of God and all that’s holy,  get yourself, get your kids into a damn good trauma therapist that understands personality disorders, and how these people and I use the term loosely behave and how they control and how they manipulate and how they use death. Murder, suicide as the ultimate control in order to hurt the target of abuse and the kids because they don’t care because remember, the kids to them be nothing. They’re an object to be used and once they can’t use them, they have no use to them. Seriously once any of us it. Psychopaths do not look…..psychopaths or narcissists do not look at other human beings as other human beings who have a rich full life of emotion themselves. They don’t they look at other human beings as objects to be used, what can I get out of you? How can I use you? How can I get what I want? That’s how they function. Okay? The biggest mistake we make is that we assume that they feel number one they don’t, or that they think that we did like we do, and they don’t, because there something is wrong up here. Okay, if they’re psychopathic, and it’s primary, something’s wrong up here. And if there’s other personality disorders going on And they’re not thinking clearly there’s that impulsivity, there’s that vindictiveness. There’s that callousness, there’s that all of that.

So, stop assuming that your ex if they’re abusive, is thinking normally or behaves like a normal human being or has feelings or empathy. They don’t they fake it, when they meet us and they do the love bombing, that’s a mask, the abuse is the real them. The abuse is the real them, let me just say that, again, the abuse is the real them, that’s who they are. This was not real. So, you’ve got to understand that when they do a heinous act like that, that’s who they really are. And it’s all about control. And you’re grieving the loss of the illusion, not the loss of the psychopath who killed themselves and burned down the house and crashed the car and went through all the money. who that is, is that’s who they really are. The this was not who they really are. But that’s what you fell in love with. So, it’s, its complicated grief, it is complicated grief. And you’re going to have to help your kids through this because the kids are going to be like What the… You know, and so a trauma therapist is going to be absolutely essential. You’ve got to get a trauma therapist to help the kids understand. It was not them. It was nothing they said it was nothing they did, it wasn’t you know, especially when the kids are like, I don’t want to go over to mom or dad’s house, and then Mom or Dad kills themselves, the kids going to feel like it was their fault. It is not their fault. It is not their fault. And How dare that person do something to make a child think it is? You know what I’m saying? So, there is that, okay, sorry, I just, it makes me angry. It makes me angry because it’s like, when, and this is the last thing I’m going to say in that I swear to God, I’m going to get to the questions Hang on.

When you are dealing with an abuser, and you choose to leave them. I am not just whistling to hear myself whistle when I tell you if they are stalking you, if they are bombarding you with phone calls, if they are texting you nonstop. If they’re emailing you nonstop, you’ve got to get an order of protection. They are crazy. They are dangerous. One of the articles and I can’t remember which one because I took them all down. Um, one of the articles said, if it’s a dark triad narcissism with psychopathy, they are dangerous. And it said it right there. And I was like, yeah, yeah, they are. Because they think that they’re right, they have to win. And they’re impulsive. And that makes them dangerous. So, if they’re stalking you, if they’re threatening you, if they’re doing anything that leads you to believe they’re going to harm you, you get a restraining order, and you call on it every single time they violate it every single time. Yes, it is just a piece of paper. However, this is a paper trail that you’re laying, so that if they do try to attack you, or they you know, do some sort of legal maneuver, you have the paperwork that shows this person is unstable. This person has made threats, this person, do you see where I’m going with that? Because ultimately, it is about protecting the kids and protecting you. So, they’re dangerous. They’re dangerous. They’re 110% dangerous. The dark triads are dangerous. They’re the stalkers. They’re the ones that kill. They are because they’re crazy. So, um, so yeah, I really hope that answers the question as to why would somebody kill themselves and burn the house down and destroy the car and blow through the money? When they’ve got kids? It’s because they don’t care. They don’t care. They truly do not care. They they’re all about the revenge. That’s all they want. So, anyway, there’s that.

Okay. Let me get to the questions. Okay, hold on. Somebody’s asking. Can you do another show on control from a disordered person? With examples? Some, some things mine did I’m starting to think we’re control even when we broke up? Um, yeah, I can talk about some of the red flags. You know, I think that’s probably a good one. So, it’s probably not going to be until where are we now? We’re in March. No, we’re in February. I think I already have marches shows laid out. I will lay out April shows. So that’ll probably be in April. So, we’ll plan on doing that. And Colin, if you could remind me of that. That’d be great. So don’t forget. Um, okay. So, control, control, control, control, red flags. Okay. All right. Okay, let’s go into the questions. Let’s do that. Hang on. Okay.

My mom is a dark triad. I am disabled and she took control of my money. So, I have to take her to court. I’m afraid she will lie as usual and put me in a conservatorship if I tried to, I try, I would strongly suggest getting an advocate to help you get all your documentation together, she can lie all she wants. But if you’ve got all your documentation going together, and you’ve got an advocate that’s advocating for you, it makes it a lot harder for her to do manipulation of your finances and your body and everything else. So, find a social worker. So, I don’t know what country you’re in. I’m assuming it’s the US. I could be wrong. But whatever country you’re in, find a social worker or find a legal advocate that will take on your case that will advocate for you. That would be my suggestion for that. All right.

What are your thoughts on revealing the narc to himself as some radical self-healing? Oh, don’t do it. Oh, dear God, where did you hear that? It’s obviously somebody who’s not a psychologist. Um, so you cannot fix them. Because you did not break them. Nobody can. I can’t fix them. I’m a damn good therapist. Nobody can fix them. They are un fixable. They’re on salvageable. So, I have heard this before from people. Well, I’m going to tell them don’t. All that’s going to do is they’re going to then start diving through the psychology and they’re going to come up with a bunch of psychobabble and they’re going to flip the script and call you the narcissist don’t freaking do it. They are un helpable seriously. So, if you tell a narcissist that they are a narcissist, they will come on freaking hinged. Absolutely. And they will punish you. And they will start studying psychology so that they know more than you do. And they’ll start using psychobabble and they will abuse you with that. So, there is that don’t do it. Don’t do it. It’s not going to heal them there. I constantly have to tell my clients, especially the new ones coming in that haven’t watched my stuff or read my books. You know, it’s like you can’t tell them that they’re disordered. All they’ll do is punish you more. And what do they do? That codependent part of them that little kid part of them wants them fixed. So, they tell them and then the next time they come in, they tell me how they’re being punished. Or they tell me how they’re now being told that they’re the narcissist or whatever, so don’t do it. Please, please, please don’t do it. Okay, hold on.

Do narc parents want their adult child to pay for them in old age? Yes. Late narc mother never worked and then dad died, and she started dropping hints on how poor she was and how we should pay for her. Yes 110% They do that. They absolutely do that. Yeah. So, a collapsed older narcissist, The nursing homes are filled with them. So, they expect the kids even though they’ve used them to take care of them. They absolutely do. And that’s no You’re under no obligation. You are under no obligation. Yeah, and yes, they do expect the kids to take care of and expect everybody to take care of they have a sense of entitlement the size of Nova Scotia I mean it’s huge. They’ve got just a huge sense of entitlement I mean it’s insane so or the size of Canada would actually be more you know, whole of Canada. You know, they’re just they have a sense of entitlement. They expect everybody to take care of them Absa-freakin-lutely. And the older they get the nastier they get.

Okay, do disordered people pop up in public to stay in your view to keep them on your mind and to keep you lined up with them when they want you to come back? Absolutely.

Kris Godinez  43:52

Absolutely. So, here’s the thing I need to warn you of. And I forgot to say this in the main part of the discussion, but I think this is important. Psychopaths and narcissists dark triads are not just exes, they can be family members, they can be mom, dad, sibling, etc. They are just as dangerous so even though it’s not a romantic partner, it’s a family member. Stay no contact if they are psychopathic; stay no contact. And they’re crazy. So, what they will do and remember we just got through Hoover’s season; they’ll wait 1015 20, 30 years and suddenly reach out again. And if the more psychopathic they are, and this kind of goes back to the question of the old elder parent, the more demanding they are, you know, you better talk to me you better contact me you but if you don’t want to be written out of the Will you better get a hold of me. So, if you’ve gone no contact with a family member, hang on. If you’ve got no contact with a family member stay no contact. If they reach out and Hoover you, and they’re doing this whole threatening thing, I’m going to cut you out of the will. I’m going to I’m going to go get you my pretty they sound like the Wicked Witch of the West. Have you ever noticed that very vindictive, very often, you know, Oh, get you. You know that cuz they’re awful. And they think that they can use the carrot of an inheritance to get people to come back. So, in this case, the kid had not spoken to this person in 10, 15, 20 years, the parents suddenly comes back and starts demanding, like threatening, and at the end, it was like, Well, if you want to be written out of the Will I need to if you don’t want to be renowned, will I need a response by 7pm? Tonight? No response. And I was like, good, because no response is a response, you know? And, yeah, they’re crazy. And then they’ll switch tactics. And I warned them of this. I said, Okay, the next thing when that doesn’t work, when the when the hammer doesn’t work, then they’re going to use the velvet glove. And I said, be prepared. It’s going to be a guilt trip. And what’s and the next thing that came out, was this whole What would Jesus do? And I’m like, Jesus would probably get a whip and, get you the hell out of the temple, you know, I mean, it’s just like, hello, communal narcissist. You know, I mean, it’s like, you can’t threaten somebody and then do the 2.0 Jesus thing and expect people to come be with you. It’s either they want to be with you, or they don’t. And clearly, they don’t. So yeah, parents can be psychopaths. 110%. And what’s especially crazy about this is that the last thing said was Don’t contact me, even if I’m on my deathbed. So, you know, the person didn’t contact I mean, even if they was going to be on their deathbed. But then 10,15 20 years later, parent comes back and starts demanding. Crazy. So, the only thing to do is to stay no contact, don’t respond, don’t engage. Don’t explain. Don’t get into a pissing match with a skunk. Let me just say that, again. Never get into a pissing match with a skunk. That goes for exes. That goes for family. Because these people what they’re doing is they’re baiting you. They’re, they’re trying to fish, they’re trying to bait you. And they want you to take the bait, and they want you to argue with them. Because that is their narcissistic supply that is their cocain. Yeah, that’s their cocaine, you know, is that’s how they get off on things. So don’t respond, give them nothing. Let them sit and stew. Because it’s not your problem. Now, I will say this, I do think they’re dangerous. I do, especially if they have access to guns, and especially if they’re vindictive, and especially if they think they’re right. You know, and so my suggestion would be if there are any threats of any kind from a parent, from a sibling, from an ex from whatever you file a restraining order if there haven’t been any threats, and it’s just this vague kind of, Oh, I’m going to cut you off, blah, blah, blah, Okay, leave it alone, let it drop, you know, no response is a response. I would, however, be very aware of your surroundings, I would carry pepper spray, I would alert neighbors, you know, and always be conscientious of who’s around. Because these people, like I said, they don’t think normally that’s not a normal way that a parent acts I If for some ungodly reason I’d ever been separated from my great nieces and nephews. And they weren’t talking to me. First of all, I would honor that, you know, not talking, except that in this case, the abuser is the one that said Don’t talk. So. You know, but if I was going to reach out and try to reestablish a relationship, I would be like, What did I do? Let’s get with a therapist. Let’s build this relationship again. You know, oh, my God, if I said or did anything, I want to make amends. I mean, see where I’m going with that. But the way a psychopath comes at it is, you know, oh, we’re both wrong. We both did things wrong.

You were the one that said you wanted to no contact so. I mean, it’s crazy. Or they’ll accuse the kid of doing things that they didn’t do, or they’ll smear the kid to other family members, which is common, you know. So, um, so yeah, so there that is that’s, they’re insane. They truly, truly, truly are insane. And they’re dangerous. I think they’re dangerous. There, you have a dark triad. They’re dangerous because you’ve got that impulsivity going on and you’ve got that incredibly strong sense of revenge. They have to be vengeful, so yeah, they’re, they’re dangerous. Absolutely. Alright, let me see if there’s any other questions that I missed.

And do they pop up? in public to stay in your view, yes, they do. They stalk that’s what they do. So, they’ll just kind of accidentally on purpose be at the gym or accidentally on purpose be at the grocery store you shop out or accidentally on purpose be on the bike trail that you go on or whatever. Yeah, they want. They want to be the first thing you think about in the morning and the last thing you think about at night, and yes, they do that to keep you hooked to keep you on edge. A lot of times a lot of times what psychopath’s dark triads, Narcissus control freaks do is they want you to be afraid. And they want you to be fearful of what they’re going to do. Which is why I’m saying yes, I want you to be aware. Yes, I want you to be awake. Yes, I want you to be aware of your surroundings, but continue on just carry pepper spray and let people know. You know. So um, yeah, they’re crazy.

They’re, you know, I had a stalker a few years ago, and I had to file a restraining order. And this person was nuts. This person was insane, and wanted to make sure that I knew that she was watching me. And I’m like, Yeah, well, every time you do that person, I am reporting it to the police, and I’m keeping a file. So, they’re crazy. And of course, when the person realized that there were going to be legal repercussions, they stopped so and they’re also cowards, they tend to be cowards. However, if you’re dealing with somebody who truly is psychopathic, narcissistic, dark triad control freak, if they’re a loose cannon, they’re unpredictable. And that’s what makes them dangerous. So, you don’t know what they’re going to do. And you do want to be careful, but you also don’t want to live your life in fear. So, you do what you can to protect yourself you do what you can to protect your family, but you do not allow yourself to live in fear.

All right, my loves I think that is it for today. And I think there’s any other questions. All right bunnies. So, I don’t know what to talk about next week. I’ll say it on Wednesday because my brain poof gone. So, take good care of yourselves and we are getting our new puppy Lucky loo this afternoon. So, I’m very excited. You guys all be good to yourselves. Yeah, that’s it. All right. My love’s I will talk to you. I hope this was helpful. If you guys have questions or you want to see future shows control, I remembered I will write it down. Just either put it in the chats, or you can go over to we need to talk with Kris Godinez on Facebook, and you know, put it in the IM over there. Let me know what you want me to talk about. That kind of thing. I’m always open to topics because the more people who get help the more people who are educated on this, the more people who are aware of this, the less they’re going to be able to abuse so yay, team. Alright guys, you guys be good. And I will talk to you on Wednesday with any questions that I missed. And I’ll talk to you on Sunday. All right. Talk to you guys later. Bye.

Kris Godinez  53:07

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

The post 02-26-2023 The Ultimate Control appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Have you ever wondered why a person who dumped you so brutally would ever try to contact you again? Or what type of abuser would try to pull you back into an abusive relationship? This episode explains what a Hoover is, who is likely to hoover and what you can do to make yourself bulletproof to said hoover.

The second half of this and every episode is answering your questions. Questions on abuse, how to stay safe and anything you are curious about regarding narcissistic intimate partner violence. Questions range from the seemingly personal to what ends up being universally asked questions.

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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, ah, announcements and I need this to be in the podcast because I’d like people to attend my meet-and-greets. So, the meet and greets will be in Santa Barbara on February 18. I’ll be in Santa Barbara. Um, the next one after that will be in Vancouver. That will be May 19, no 20th May 20. The next one after that is going to be in Portland, Oregon. And I do not know the dates yet. It will be in July. Um, and then we are doing Florida in the Tampa area in December, December, like the early part of December, go to Krisgodinez.com. And you can find all the meet and greets.

So, um basically the police, police, the police, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there needs to be oversight. There needs to be like a citizen oversight on these incidences and not just kicked back to the police department just like there needs to be oversight in the family court system and not just kicked back to the bar because it’s like, okay, prime example. I’m sorry. So, in dealing with a client that’s going through a domestic violence situation, I’m speaking to the general practitioner could not get it through their head, that the judge wouldn’t understand the situation. So, for example, a lot of clients are afraid to go get antidepressants or anti-anxiety meds because they’re afraid of it coming out in the divorce hearing or in the custody hearing or in whatever. And the general practitioner the doctor couldn’t understand that a judge wouldn’t understand that issue. Because the GP was like, Oh, well, you should go see a psychiatrist. And you know, the client was like, I’m not going to go see a psychiatrist. I don’t want this getting out and they do they even though the HIPAA laws protect it, you’d be amazed at how sneaky and nasty these divorce cases can get and how invasive so or maybe you wouldn’t be. I shouldn’t be shocked. But sometimes I still am.

Anyway, um, so there’s a lack of understanding of the judicial system. So, in the police department where this brutality happened, five cops beat to death Mr. Nichols while he was crying for his mother, which just breaks my heart. And here’s what I pulled up. I was wondering what is the recommendation for police officers? Like what is the bare minimum you have to have, and this is from the Phoenix Police Department. minimum requirement, you have to be 20 and a half years old and 21 years of age prior to completion of the academy. You have to be United States citizens you have to be in sound physical and mental health now but here’s the thing. Are they testing for that? I’m sorry. How? How many psychopaths have we seen in our lives? How many antisocial have we seen in our lives that lie about their mental health condition? Oh, honey, oh, I’d have to take off my shoes and start counting. You know what I’m saying? There’s tons of them. They don’t tell the truth. That’s part of being antisocial. They’re pathological liars. So, are they going on Oh, you’re just telling me that you’re of sound mind? Do you see where I’m going? There’s no psych eval in here at all. Okay, must successfully complete a medical exam. Okay, that’s great. That’s physical, though that’s not mental have not been dishonorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces, and within the last 36 months have fewer than eight driving violation points have no more than one chargeable. One chargeable accident have no convictions for DUI, no more than one in a lifetime. I’m sorry, but I think police officers should be held to a higher standard. I’m sorry. I do. Possess a valid driver’s license that has not been canceled refuse suspended or revoked must meet Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training and drug testing. No Commission or conviction of a felony misdemeanor arrests are discretionary.

There are a lot of police officers at least in the in the local area that have had domestic violence calls on them. Oh, yeah, don’t get me started. Must have good moral character and personal integrity. How do you how… do you interview for that? Again, psychopaths can fake. Antisocial can fake narcissists can fake Hello, you know it’s like what’s your what’s your gold standard here? What are you how are you? How are you judging that they’ve got personal integrity? Somebody who’s going to beat somebody to death doesn’t sound to me like they’ve got personal integrity sounds to me like they’ve got mob mentality is know what that sounds like to me. Most have a high school diploma or GED, or home school diploma or equivalency must have. Yeah, that’s it. That’s it.

There’s no training in psychological there’s no training in not engaging in the mob mentality. There is no training in domestic violence there is. Huh? It is unacceptable because these are public servants. We are their bosses. And I think we as a nation forget that. We are their bosses; we pay their salary through our taxes. It is unacceptable that three people a month every month since 2020, have died in police instances like this. The whole system needs to be overhauled; I’m not kidding you. And the only way that’s going to happen is if we the people speak up and go, Hey, we are survivors of abuse. This is unacceptable. The judges not knowing there A hole from a hole in the ground is unacceptable. They’re not understanding the way a narcissist or an abuser is going to use the judicial system as an abuse by proxy. Unacceptable. This needs to be changed. And we have got to speak up. And the only way it’s going to change is if we all rise up. And we start going hey, look at this. Look at how this is broken. Look at how this is not serving the children. Hello, how many how many divorce cases where the kids are sacrificed at the altar of the judge’s ego? If I could start throwing little fingers right now I would! Tons of times, it makes me angry. And you take that further out to the police department. They’re killing people, three people a month every month since 2020. That’s unacceptable. They work for us. That’s not okay. If I’m the boss, they get fired. They go to jail. And training is implemented to prevent this from ever freaking happening again unacceptable get angry guys. We are their bosses. And they act like they’re our bosses, ah, ah, our taxes pay for them. So, get angry, get vocal, get involved. Don’t just go oh, well, more violence. Now. The only way it’s going to stop is if we demand that it stops. And the only way that the judicial system is going to get its head pulled out of its hind end is if we demand that this changes. So, there’s my soapbox for this morning so or this afternoon. Anyway, that’s my current event. I think there needs to be more training. I do. I’m sorry. I don’t I don’t think you can go on. Just somebody saying, Oh, I’m a good person. Okay. Well, I’m sorry, during the love bombing phase. Did they all say they were good people? Yeah, they did. So, I think there needs to be psychedelics, I think there needs to be accountability. I think there needs to be taxpayer oversight. I do. Because this is our money. And every time one of these evil people kill somebody, there’s going to be a lawsuit, and then there’s going to be a huge payout. Where does that money come from our taxes. This has got to stop. This has got to stop. It’s evil. It’s wrong. There needs to be oversight. Get a hold of your Senator, get a hold of your representative. Get a hold of your city council, get a hold of your chief of police. Let them know. Let them know. We have power in our voice. So do that. And believe me when I tell you I’m pretty sure I’m on a whole bunch of watch lists. Because whenever anything like this happens, I start sending out letters to everybody. I do, and that’s our power. So, in numbers, we can change it. So, there it is. All right. That’s my rant. I’m sorry, I’m done.

Okay, so today I wanted to talk about why we get sucked back in what the heck? What is going on?

Kris Godinez  10:01

So, the Hoover basically so basically from Halloween through February through Valentine’s Day, it’s Hoover season. Hoover season. So, the Hoover is when an abuser success back like a vacuum cleaner, like the Hoover, you know, so they suck us back into the relationship. And so many times, targets of abuse are so hard on themselves because they fell for the Hoover. So, here’s what’s going on.

So, people have asked, Why did I fall for it? When I kind of sort of knew better, but here’s the deal. There’s so many things going on that causes us to go back. So don’t beat yourselves up. On average, and this is just average, it takes seven times leaving before it finally sticks. Why? Okay, we are dealing with flying monkeys. Okay, how many of us had family and friends who were like, Oh, you just need to work it out. Oh, you just need to go to couples counseling, oh, you just need to… either not understanding the level of abuse or they liked the drama, and they like hearing about the drama. Okay, so you got that. You’ve got the cognitive dissonance. So, the cognitive dissonance is where they’ve sold us a bill of goods, we believe everything that they’ve said because we love them, and we want to believe it. So, in the love bombing phase, love bomb, love bomb, love bomb I’m your soulmate on the best thing that’s ever happened to you. Nobody else is going to love you the way I do. Oh my God, I hope not. You know what I’m saying? It’s so they do this whole, you know, I’m the best thing ever. And I’ll never lie to you. And you’ve done it out of that. But then they start to devalue in the discard. And our brains is like, seriously, it’s like somebody stuck a mixer in there an egg beater and just, you know, turned on the mixer. And we get this cognitive dissonance. So, on the one hand, we can see the abuse because we feel it. We feel it. On the other hand, they’re telling us Oh, I love you. I cannot tell you the number of times, I have dealt with child abuse cases where the abuser would be beating the child and at the same time denying that they were doing it so gaslighting while they were beating the child, Oh, I love you. I’m doing this because I love you. This is not me doing this. This is somebody else this is. So, you know. So, there’s this cognitive dissonance where the incoming information does not match what we know to be true. And that causes the fog. So, we’ve got fear, we’ve got obligation, and we’ve got guilt going on. Now, you couple that with if we had a family of origin that was dysfunctional, abusive, neglectful, you know, the whole thing, drug addicts, alcoholics, you know, and we’ve got codependency going on, okay, that need to The Disease to Please by Harriet Brakier, great book. So, we’ve got all of that going on.

So, they have gone through the love bombing phase. Then they’re in the devalue in the discard. And then we decide to leave, right? Because we’ve had enough, we were like, this is this is not good for me, I need to leave. So, we start to leave. And what ends up happening is, is they start doing the love bombing, again, like big time, and what happens is, is that inner child, that little kid inside of us that so desperately wants to be loved, and accepted and cherished and taken care of, and etc., etc., etc. That little kid inside of us, that’s why I keep saying the Inner Child Workbook is invaluable. You will need it. Okay, so that little kid inside of us goes, Oh, they love me again. Oh, it’s going to be okay. No, it’s going to be different this time. So, we kind of like gaslight ourselves in a way. And we want to believe we want to believe it’s like Scully and Mulder, I want to believe you know, I want to believe that they are going to change I want to believe that the person I fell in love with is the real person. So, we’ve got all of that going on. So little kid goes, oh my god, they love me. They love me. Oh, this is good. Oh, yay. And the next thing you know, they’re right back to the devalue in the discard.

The love bombing gets shorter and shorter and shorter, and the devalue in the discard gets more and more intense. And really, especially if you’re dealing with a dark triad. They are pushing the envelope. How much physical abuse will you take? How much verbal abuse will you take? How many cheating incidences will you take? I’ve seen them do things like, at first, they would hint they were cheating. And the person you know left them and then they love bombed them, and they took them back. And then the next time it was like, Oh no, I am absolutely cheating. Right, and then they left them, and they were love bombing them and then went back. And then the next time they actually brought the other woman over. This is how, what’s the word I’m looking for? Absolutely egregious. That’s a good word. I like the word egregious, egregious and, and arrogant. And they literally think that there will be no consequences like, oh, I can do whatever I want. And unfortunately, if the target of abuse hasn’t got no self-esteem, no support system, they might just allow that in the misguided hope that if they let them do that, and get it out of their system, trust me, they’ll never get it out of their system, this is who they are, this is their system, this is who they are, that somehow, they’ll let the other person go and come back to them. And that’s the codependency.

So, these are the various reasons why we get sucked back in it really is like the mafia. You know, I tried to leave, and they just keep pulling me back. And that’s what they do. And they play on our emotions. And that is, what is such a mind. Mess for us, is because they really don’t have emotions. They don’t. But yet, they’re able to read our emotions and know exactly what to say, and which buttons to push to get us to come back, or to get us to engage in a dialogue with them. Okay. And it’s a game to them. I cannot express this enough. We mean nothing more to them. Where did all my pens go? Good, Lord, they’re all gone. All right, well, I’ve got a white out here. So, we mean nothing more to them than this whiteout cartridge. And as soon as our usefulness is done, they toss us we’re done, that we’re objects to them. We don’t mean anything. To them. They do not love. They say they do. Oh, I miss you, baby. It’ll be different this time. I promise I’m going to change. No, they don’t hold. They do not change. And so, we fall for it, though, because that inner child so desperately wants to believe that they’re going to change. Because, let’s face it, most of us are optimists. And we look for the good in people. And that’s a great way to live unless you’re dealing with an abuser. And unfortunately, we give them the benefit of the doubt we do. And we are like, oh, you know, they’re going to change. They’re telling you they’re going to change.

So, we’re very trusting, and we’re very like a child look how trusting children can be, you know, very trusting, very wanting to believe the best, wanting to believe that they’re going to change. It’s kind of like, I don’t know if you guys have ever watched Gone With the Wind. I hate that movie. I hate that movie so much. I cannot even begin to tell you. Somebody needs to just slap starlet seriously. But I’m Melanie. Melanie is a person a character in that movie. It sees the good in everyone. And so, here’s Scarlett, a total Narcissus. Thank you very much going after her husband, Ashley and, and it’s like Melanie’s completely blind to it. She just won’t see it because she wants to see the good in everybody. And that’s dangerous. There’s a fine line. It’s like, yes, you want to see the good and everybody. No, you don’t want to be like totally paranoid, but you got to have that balance of prove to me that you’re trustworthy. Show me through actions. You’re trustworthy. That’s really. Actions speak louder than words. And remember, narcissists can say the prettiest things, and they know that, and especially and remember, they’ve been observing us and watching us like a shark. That’s the best way I can put it. They are antisocial, like nobody’s business a lot of times.

Kris Godinez  19:06

And they watch us, and they look to see what is our weakness, what is our kryptonite? And mostly for a lot of us our kryptonite is love. We want to be loved. We want to be accepted. We want to be appreciated. We want to be seen; we want to be heard. And so, they play on that, oh, oh, they want to be loved. Okay, I can play that. And so, they’ll play it, and they put that mask on. And they do it just long enough to get us back, and I can guarantee you they will punish the crap out of you for having the audacity to leave them. And that’s really what this is all about. It’s a game. It’s a game, and they get off. I’m not kidding you. They get off on. Can I get them back? Can I be smooth enough and charming enough and sexy enough and this enough and that enough to get them back? And that’s it’s the game. And then when you come back, they go, I got them back, okay. And then they start their BS all over again. It’s like the clock, you know, it’s like here at 12 o’clock is the love bombing. And the love bombing goes until about three, but then the devalue and discard starts. And then the really horrible stuff starts at six, and then we book out. And then they’re in the remorseful quote, unquote, phase. And then the love bombing starts up again. But then it’s shorter, and it goes instead of to three goes to two, and then the devalue and discard goes to five, from two to five, and then boom, and then you know, it just keeps going. And they suck us in because they play on our good nature. They play on our desire to be loved, they play on our desire to be appreciated, and wanted and heard and everything and trust me, they are listening to every single story, you tell them about your family of origin, and they are going to use that to abuse you, they’re going to use that to pull you back in. They’re going to you know, the whole thing. What they will often do, and this has happened over and over and over and over again, is they play on the time of year. And this is why I wanted to make sure to do this particular episode on the Hoover. So, Valentine’s Day, Valentine’s Day is a Hallmark holiday. I personally don’t like it. John doesn’t like it. We don’t celebrate it. We wear black. That’s because it’s like this is a stupid holiday. Well, it is really when you think about it, it puts too much pressure on couples, and it puts too much pressure on singles. I don’t like it. So, it’s like if you’re going to celebrate your love, how much do it all the time? There you go.

They’re just an idea. I don’t know, you know, and it makes me angry because I see restaurants and flower people, florists, and everybody else Jack their prices up, and I’m just like, Ah, I’m not participating in this.

But Narcissists? Oh, boy, they know it’s the romantic day. They know it’s the romance season. And they will start doing hoovers like nobody’s business right around this time period. So, they do it a lot during the holidays, a little bit of a break in, in January. And then, boy, howdy, they start up again. And it’s cyclical, guys. I mean, this traditionally is the most time for Hoovers, but they can happen who was going to happen at any time. And they can happen decades later. Like literally 20 years later, I had one where the client was like, You are not going to believe who just left me a voicemail. And I’m like, don’t tell me it was your first husband. Yeah. It was her first husband, literally 30 years later. What the, you know, wanting to get together for coffee. And she’s like, nope, and I’m like, good girl. It’s like they don’t change, guys. And you’ve got to help that inner child understand. They’re not going to change. So, they play on the emotions they play on the season. Absolutely. So, whether it’s Christmas or whether it’s Valentine’s Day, they’re going to play on that. Oh, you know, I just, I was taking a trip down memory lane, and I was thinking about all the cool things we did and….. And usually, though the funny thing of it is, is usually most narcissists are terrible at gift-giving terrible, like they don’t know how to give gifts, and they don’t know how to be romantic. Because romance, real romance, not just sex. Now, here’s the thing. narcissists do sex just great. They do. They can.

So, sex is fine, because there’s no intimacy; there’s no emotional investment in that. It’s physical. So, they can do that. But with real romance, honest to God, real romance, it’s the whole package. It’s physical intimacy, its emotional intimacy, its intellectual intimacy. It is the whole thing. And so, it’s really hard for them to really truly give you romance like the whole package. That’s the thing that so many survivors tell me when they get out of those relationships. Man, the sex was great. It was great that yet they were cheating on me, or they were unable to remember our anniversary or our, you know, birthdays or whatever. They’re not good with intimacy. They’re not. So, they play on it. And they play on that hope that we have that they’re going to wake up and that they’re going to change and they’re going to figure it out. And they’re going to do the V8 slap and go, oh my god, I’ve been an idiot, I need to go back, I need to fix this, and you know, they don’t, they don’t. And if they’re doing that, you got to, you got to trust your gut and work all of these books that I talked about. So, the C PTSD From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, The Self-Esteem Workbook, all of these books are going to make you bulletproof to these Hoover’s, okay. And it’s also going to help in The Inner Child Workbook by either Lucia Cappacchione or by Catherine Taylor. All of these are going to help you be bulletproof because you’ll be working on the inner child who so desperately wants to be loved, Harry Braiker  The Disease to Please. The codependency, the acceptance, oh my God, I want to be accepted. I want to be loved. The self-esteem, it’s like, Hmm, you know what, you treated me like crap. I’m not putting up with that have a nice life. Go pound sand. You know that, that certainty that you don’t deserve to be treated poorly. So, these books will all help you to cement that in get with a good trauma therapist because they’ve done the trauma bonding. It’s that Stockholm Syndrome. It is it’s that. Oh, but you know, I need to be with him because we’ve shared so much we’ve gone through. Ah, no, don’t fall for the time-invested fallacy. And with parents, we do that too. Okay. And they’ve been abusing you forever.

So, what are you doing? You know, we’re so sorry. You’re telling me you want this, but you’re doing this? What can you see the incongruency it’s working on a cognitive dissonance with a therapist. It’s working on a post-traumatic stress syndrome that we have because of their intermittent positive rewards. I love you. I love you. I love you. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I love you. I hate you. I love you. I hate you. I hate, hate hate you love, love, love you. And we start living for those days when they love us. And they’ve trained us like Pavlov’s dog, that as soon as they shine their lovely love light on us that we go. Oh, they love me again. Oh, thank god, okay, okay, I can. I’m safe. Now I can go back. Nope, that is when you are in the most dangerous when they have done the devalue in the discard, and you’ve recognized the abuse, and you’ve left them, and they come back trying to get you back into their realm or their, their sphere of influence their control, that is when you are in the most danger because they are going to punish you. They do. And the punishment is a harder devalue and discard. And probably some physical stuff going on, too, right? I’ve yet to see one that didn’t escalate. So may take some time. But they do they do escalate.

So Okay. All right. So that is that, um, and I just wanted to be clear it, it takes seven times. So, there’s stuff going on inside of us that is contributing to that going back. Now, do not beat yourself up. Like I said, it takes seven times, you’ve got to work on this stuff, you have got to work on this stuff. It’s like, you’re not going to get it through osmosis. So, it’s great that you go out and buy the books y’all got to start working ‘em, like seriously, because it’s not going to do any good. If it’s just sitting on your nightstand and you’re not reading it, it’s not going to do you any good if you’re just shoving it into a drawer and you’re not reading it. So, this is why therapists can help. So, a lot of times, change is scary to us as survivors of abuse. So, what I will do is when I see somebody struggling with the books, I’m like, Okay, let’s pick the self-esteem workbook. Let’s work through it together. And that is what helps is to have a therapist work through the book with you to help calm that inner child because, that’s usually what’s going on is the inner child is just freaking outgoing. But I don’t want to because well what’s going to happen if I change? Good stuff, trust me, good stuff is going to happen.

Kris Godinez  28:41

But things do change, and the way that abusers deal with you also changes. So, in other words, once you get your self-esteem going, and once you understand your value and your worth and you don’t put up with shenanigans anymore, those people tend to go goodbye because you’re no longer an easy target. They look for easy targets. They look for people who have got families of origin that have harmed us that have hurt us that have neglected us that have abused us, etc. So, I want to be very clear. This is not victim shaming. This is not like oh, look at you. You’re so bad for going back. No, sorry. How many of us went back, raise your hand a lot of right there with you. It’s the inner child. It’s the self-esteem. It’s the thing you need to work on to make ourselves absolutely bulletproof. So that when one of these jack wagons comes up, we can go Uh huh, yeah, I could smell you a mile away. You just you hit the road Jack, you just keep on going. No. Do you see where I’m going with that? So gentle with you. Gentle with you. Work the workbooks. Get with a good trauma therapist. I’m not kidding you. It can really help. A good trauma therapist will help keep pushing you forwards. In other words, so say, for example, when I get a client that is like really stuck just like well, why should I do this, and you in it and they start sounding like they’re about four, I’ll be like, Okay, take a deep breath. How old are you right now? How old? Do you feel? Four. Okay, what is your four-year-old afraid of, and then we’ll walk through it. And generally, what it was, and what it is, is it anytime we’ve ever stood up to abusive family, we got punished. So, in a way, us standing up for ourselves is standing up to abusive family. And so that inner child is going to be like, freaking out, you got to calm the inner child down, and love them and hug them and call them George, and help them understand their safe and then keep moving forward. And that’s what a good therapist will do for you. So, you know, it’s like, you don’t just stop, you always help move forward, and you comfort that’s the big thing. Comforting that inner child, comforting that fear, giving encouragement, you can do this. You can get away from them. You absolutely can. I don’t care how many times you’ve gone back. You will eventually, at some point, make the decision that this is it. And really seek out support. Seek out safe family; if there is any safe friends, a support group, a therapist, get support. Get out. You’re worth it. You’re worth it is a lot of work. Yep. Are you worth it? Absolutely. there that is alright.

Let’s hit the questions. How can we break the trauma bond? When that’s the bond, we broke with our abusive parent unit? Why is it so hard to boot the rest of the abusive people? Because it’s familiar. So again, we’ve got the inner child going. But this time it will be different or, but I’ve known them forever, or but it’s the inner child. So, it’s familiar. And that is, that is a huge clue. It’s like if you’re starting dating or whatever, you’re noticing some really familiar behavior. Those should be red flags, like if they remind you of your abusive family, that should be a red flag. I can’t tell you the number of times I had done interviews, like at different agencies, when I was you know, interning and things like that. And they would interview me, and I’m just like, oh, the dynamic here is dysfunctional. No. Because it was really familiar. So that’s kind of what stops us is and there’s the fear. So, when we leave an abusive relationship, whether it’s a parental relationship, or a romantic relationship, we’re terrified of being alone, we’re terrified that we’re never going to find friends, we’re terrified that we’re not going to find support. And when we start clearing out the toxic people from our lives, it can feel very lonely. But think of it this way. It’s like a spring cleaning, you’re getting rid of appliances of the don’t work, you’re getting rid of clothes that no longer fit you, you’re getting rid of people who are harmful to you, because you don’t deserve to be harmed. So, think of it that way you have value. You have worth. And as such as a child of the universe, you do not deserve to be harmed ever by anyone, and I don’t care who the bleep they think they are. Does that make sense? So yeah, it’s because it’s familiar. And breaking the trauma bond with the other abusers in our life is our task. It really is. Until we recognize you know, well for the rest of our lives. But when we start recognizing our value and our worth, it gets a lot easier. So, there’s that.

Okay, um, is there an opposite of Hoover, my late narc mom never saw contact, just sat waiting, if anyone would contact her and tell other family members that no one ever calls or visits? Oh my god, that is so common. Okay. So, to be clear, narcissists tend to do one of two things. They either do the Hoover and this is usually in romantic relationships. It can be in parental relationships as well. You know, they do the whole guilt thing, you know, you never write, you never call, you know, that whole thing. But they also can do the whole I’m going to sit here and wait for you to call me. Because I’m too important to pick up the phone. They do that. I can’t. We have a family member that does that. Yeah. And then they tell everyone how nobody pays attention to them, and nobody kowtows to them. And nobody up above.

So yeah, so here’s the deal. When narcissists get called out, okay? And they know that you’re not going to put up with it. They go, they go by the end, but then they will play the victim. So, their covert narcissists are the ones who do that. So, they’re usually older family members, and they’re the ones like, like you said, your NARC, your late narc mom. So older family members will do the whole. They never call, they never write Poor me. I’m a victim. Look, you should feel sorry for me, etc., etc., etc. So yeah, they absolutely do that because they seriously don’t believe that they why should they pick up the phone even though it’s so easy you pick up the phone yet a button you’re connected, but they don’t want that it’s a power trip. Remember, it’s a power trip, and they would rather be alone and a victim than actually have a real relationship because they know you’re not going to put up with the BS. That’s why if you were still cow telling them, then they would be fine with contacting you, but they know they’re not going to win. So, remember, it’s all about the win for them, and double bonus they get to be the victim, and triple bonus, they get to smear you. That’s their goal. That’s their game. So yeah, there is there are two polar opposite ways of acting. There’s either the Hoover or there’s the I’m going to play the victim. I’m going to pretend that nobody loves me or maybe really people don’t want them, you know, and I’m going to smear them and live in my own petard, you know what I’m saying? So yeah, there that is. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, hope that answered the question.

My cousin changed her story. She wanted to stay with my ex narc. And even sided with him against me. Now he’s gone. She is gossiping, calling me naive for staying. Oh, why the behavior change because you’re dealing with a disordered person. So, let’s be clear, disordered people generally have a personality disorder, either narcissism or borderline personality disorder, history histrionic, something like that. And they need chaos and drama. Like the rest of us need oxygen. So, they will flip-flop. You know, there’ll be a mugwump, a mug on one side, and there womp on the other. They’re sitting on a fence, right? So, there’ll be a mug lump. And they’ll play both sides against the middle and they’ll try to stir up the pot. And it for them it’s drama. It’s look at me Look at me, look at me. I’ve got information. You know, I don’t understand why they didn’t leave blah, blah blah. So, they will stir the pot create drama, smear you, want to act like they’re in the know. Somehow. They’ve shown you who they are. And the second somebody disrespects you oh my god, you be done. Like where’s the wash pan on the  wash my hands goodbye y’all go pound sand that you’ve they’ve shown you who they are. And they flip flop their story so that they get attention. It’s all about them. So minor narcissists, possibly, I don’t know. So, but that’s something that somebody who is disordered does, so they will tell stories they’ll side with the abuser Okay, who side with the abuser or one or two types they are either just fracking ignorant, don’t understand abuse don’t understand domestic violence don’t understand narcissistic abuse don’t get how these people behave and or they are minor narcissists themselves and they’re enjoying the attention so there you go, and they like to be associated with a major narcissist.

Kris Godinez  38:19

So that’s why they side with the narcissist so yeah, they’ve shown you she or he has shown you who they really are. And in that case, you wash your hands you have nothing more to do with them and you block them you don’t talk to them you don’t include them. You’d be done, you be done you need to guard your well-being like nobody’s business like for example. Your peace of mind, your peace, your calm, your safe haven needs to be guarded as jealously as any country guards their borders. You know what I’m saying? It’s like you are an island of peace and calm, and nobody got the right to violate that. So don’t allow them back in once somebody has shown you who they really are. Kick them to the curb seriously because the intention is to create drama. The intention is to create drama, and the intention is to create chaos and to get attention, so don’t give it to them. Cut them off. Cut off the supply. Yep, absolutely.

Okay, um, do minor narcissists in a family try to be top dog? Once the main narc becomes old and weak. The minor narc tries to take over yes, that absolutely can’t happen. So, in a disordered family and dysfunctional family, they will eat their young for bread. First, they will eat their old for breakfast. They will harm whoever they can in order to be powerful. You betcha. So once the major narc is incapacitated, has dementia, whatever. Generally, it’s the golden child, not always, but generally, it’s the golden child who suddenly becomes the next narcissist, or it’s one of the other narcissists in the family that suddenly becomes the major narcissist. It is a power and control game. It really is. It’s all about power; it’s all about control. The only way to win is to not play, I swear to God, and all the totally, the only way to win is to not play because they will drag you in, drag you through the mud, get you to pick sides, which is never a good idea. You know, lie, all sorts of stuff. You don’t need it. Life’s too short. Absolutely.

Okay. Um, narcissists, only Hoover; if they are assured of winning if there’s any chance that they’re not going to win, they’re not going to Hoover. And again, the Hoover can take 20 years. So, what ends up happening is the relationship breaks up. You are pretty strong and saying no, we’re done. It’s, you know, absolutely, you have not contacted them. So, they’re not assured of winning. So, they’re going to go through and go find other sources. And once they run out of all the new supply, I can guarantee you you’re probably 20 or 30 years from now going to get a text or an email or a phone call, or whatever IM or whatever, you know, hey, just thinking about you. It doesn’t mean anything about you that they’re not hoovering. It means about them that they don’t think they can win. So, congratulations, you were strong enough to make this person think that they couldn’t win. That’s the way to look at it. And in a weird kind of way of thinking. It’s almost like we take it as an insult if they don’t Hoover us like wasn’t good enough, you know, why aren’t they it has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with them and about their wants, their needs, their desires, etc., etc. etc. So, the really, how do I explain this? The very antisocial ones tend to be the ones that do the hoovering. Okay? The ones who are not quite as antisocial. If there’s any chance of them not winning, they’re not going to Hoover. They’re not because you know it’s a rejection, and they can’t handle rejection. So do not take it personally. It is not you it is them.

If you think you made a mistake, I want you to go back through and think about why you broke up with them. If there was any disrespect, let’s talk about the deal breakers. Disrespect what is disrespect look like okay, lying, cheating, gaslighting, rewriting history. Stealing, stealing money, putting you down, name calling. Okay, those are all disrespects. You know what caused the breakup, write it out, you know, if there was any deal breaker in there, then that’s good enough. So, your list of deal breakers needs to be what behaviors you absolutely will not put up with. from anybody, like literally anybody. So, no lying, no cheating, no stealing, no disrespect, no gaslighting, no rewriting history. No putting you down. No, using your past against you. No making you do things that you’re not comfortable with. That’s a deal breaker. How many times have abusers convinced their target of abuse to engage in some sort of sexual act they didn’t want to engage in, especially if they’re sadistic, you know, or engage in a sexual act that’s going to be filmed or engage in some behavior that’s either illegal or dangerous, doing drugs, you know, stealing, etc., etc., etc. So, if there were any of these things going on in that relationship, and you left them because they were disrespectful, they lied. They cheated. They stole they gaslight. They rewrote history. They tried to get you to do things you were not comfortable with it did not value or appreciate your boundaries. They did not take no for an answer. They kept pushing and pushing and pushing. Those are all deal-breakers, guys. Those are all deal breakers. So go back through write it out. Why did you break up with them? There’s a reason we leave, and it’s not because they were great people. Okay, let’s be clear about that. Disrespect is disrespect. And when somebody shows me who they are, Ooh, boy, they’re gone. I don’t put up with that. I do not put up with those kinds of shenanigans. I really don’t. So, I’m And neither should you. So there that is, and if you’re confused, get to a therapist. Do not contact them. Do not contact them. Get to a therapist, work it get through, and talk out your list of deal breakers. How many deal breakers did they break to make you break up? So that’s going to help you.

How to deal with well-meaning clueless responses? Oh, my God. Okay. Well, all right. Now this person is either ignorant and does not understand abuse, or they’re minor narcissists themselves. Here’s what I believe in doing, I like to give some chances, not a great deal, but some chances. So, I would educate that friend. I would send them to watch these videos and help them understand why you went no contact. And if they say anything like that, again, that’s your clue. That’s a red flag. Does that make sense? So, once you’ve tried to educate somebody, and they continue to advocate for the abuser, you’re dealing with a flying monkey. So that’s the best way to kind of figure that out is that they’re advocating for the abuser. It’s like no healthy, normal people don’t do that. People are occluded. So, this is why I’m saying we need education. If we had more education, if this was taught in schools, like if this was taught in high schools, you know about what to watch out for when you’re dating, if this was taught in the psychology classes, which when I was going through school, they would not touch personality disorders with a 20-foot pole, because they were like, oh, that’s going to get gotten rid of No, it’s not. And it shouldn’t because that’s a disservice to the targets of abuse. So, it needs to be taught, this needs to be shared, this needs to be everyone on the face of this frickin planet needs to be able to recognize an abuser when they see one and not fall thrall to their BS, because they’re smooth. The’re con artists. They are con artists, they will say whatever they need to in order to get that narcissistic supply, but then their behavior does not match what they are saying. Hmm, does that make sense? So um, yeah. So, there is there is that

Okay when we are healing from abuse from a narcissist, who is basically put in a box and turn it on? It takes a long time, on average, and remember, we are now dealing with complicated grief. So complex, PTSD, thanks, abuser, and complicated grief, meaning we love them, but they abused us. So, there’s this conflicting diametrically opposed feeling going on of Wait a minute. I fell in love with them. I love them. But then they abused us, oh, my God, what the heck, how can I ever trust again, etc., etc., etc.

Kris Godinez  48:00

So, we’re dealing with complicated grief. So really, it’s important to grieve, it’s important to work through all of this stuff, CPTSD from surviving to thriving P. Walker, a grieving workbook is going to help you on average, and this is average, three years, on average, because the first year think about it, they do the devalue and discard. And it’s been brutal, brutal. They lied, they said horrible things. And we believed them for a little bit, you know, we finally got away from them. It’s done. But then we have to go through that first year. And this is with any grief. This was with any loss, you have to go through that first year. Oh, we used to do this. Oh, this is the anniversary of this. And this is their birthday. And this is when we did this. And this is when and you’re grieving the loss of somebody who is still alive. That is the hardest grief you are ever going to go through. And it is complicated. So, you’re going to need to work through the grief. You’re going to grieve the loss of the illusion that you fell in love with. And that’s the hard part because it’s like the beautiful illusion of everything we wanted, holy cow, the whole package, right? And then it turned out none of it was real. They were pretending they were play-acting. They had a mask on. So, we have to grieve the loss of what we thought we had. Then we allow ourselves to get angry at what was really there. And that’s another part of grief. Anger is a part of the grieving process. Okay, and we get angry that they put us through all of this, right? So, the second year is like, oh, okay, all right. This is kind of the new normal. All right, I’ve gone through it yet. Here are all these anniversaries not quite as bad. Okay. The third year is when we kind of start hitting our stride and start trusting again, but it takes about on average, which means 50% above 50% below on average, three years, and working on trust means working on trusting yourself. So that means working on Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, The Disease to Please by Harriet Braiker, and The Inner Child Workbook by Katherine Taylor or Lucia Cappacchione. CPTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, knowing you better than ever, you know what I’m saying? Because I love to lie to us and say, Oh, I know you better than you know yourself. Well, by the time they’re done with us, yeah, because they’ve literally put an eggbeater in our head. But here’s the truth, you know you better than anybody else, and you need to be rock solid in that certainty of who you are. Which means good self-esteem, no codependency, and no inner child issues. Do you see where I’m going with that? And you want to nail down any of the family of origin nails that are still sticking up. Because trust me, a narcissist will come along with a hammer and Wacom. So, you want to work on yourself. Knowing yourself is going to help you trusting yourself is going to help you to be able to trust other people and also to be able to read other people and also be able to see BS when you see a comment. So yeah, it does take time. It does take time, gentle with you, gentle with you work, the workbooks get with a good trauma therapist. Seriously, that’s going to help you.

All right, let’s see what we got; anything else that Okay, second part of this? I just feel weird about my body since being exploited or controlled. Oh, boy. Okay, so abusers make us feel shame about our body and our sexuality, like, you know, they will praise us for that. But then when they do the devalue in the discard, oh, you’re a whore, you’re this, you’re that it’s awful. So, here’s the thing you have got nothing to be ashamed of. They’re the ones that should be hanging their head, but they’re not going to cuz they’re not feeling they don’t have the empathy that we do. You’ve got nothing to feel ashamed of. Absolutely not. Your body is beautiful. Your sexuality is beautiful. And these asshats take advantage of that and make us feel shamed for our bodies, for our sexuality, for etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Give us a good trauma therapist; you got nothing to be ashamed of. Your body is beautiful. This is something that you can do in the mirror work. So, naked mirror work? I know, you know, people are like, Ah, no, yes, they can mirror work seriously. So, for example, let me give you a great example. My father was real, and I was completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. He belonged to every hardcore, fundamentalist Bible-thumping religion you could think of, and they were all body shaming all of them. Every single last one of them is that women were evil. The bodies were evil. And it was all women’s fault that men had lust thoughts because women were too pretty with a friend. Don’t get me started. So, I grew up with a lot of shame about my body, a lot of shame. It’s like I couldn’t wear a bikini until I was in my 30s. Because I was so like, oh my god, I can’t show my body. You know, screw that noise. So, what I started doing was Mirror work, obviously. But then I started doing naked mirror work. And I started loving every part of my body. It’s like. This body is beautiful. This body has a right to be naked. This body has a right to be loved. This body has a right to be loving this, but you know, and I just kept working on that until I got comfortable with my own body. And of course, you know, realize my dad was also sexually molesting me at this time. So, you know, it’s like all of the weird, weird stuff. So, what you do is you and do all of the messages that you got and you confirm Body Positive by doing the mirror work. And what you want to notice is okay. As soon as you start looking at yourself, does that inner critic suddenly go off on a tangent and start? Oh, you can’t let us know you look. We’re going to look at that little pouch. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, thank you for your input. Shut the bleep up. Why? Because I say so. You say so? I say so. I get to love my body, pooch, and everything. And if y’all don’t like it, y’all can go pound sand!  Go pound sand, but Bye now. See where I’m going with that. And you just keep working on it until you can look at yourself in the mirror and have nice thoughts. Seriously, we always; it’s just like I talked about how we never say anything nice to ourselves. Like we never tell ourselves what we did right. Which is why when doing mirror work, I recommended night. You do three things you did right. Hey, hi. Good to see you. Again. Here are three things you did right today. Same thing with our bodies. Look at your body. And notice what’s beautiful. All about it. Your body is beautiful. It is this wonderful meat skeleton that basically gets us through life. It’s amazing. The muscles are amazing. The fat is amazing. The body is amazing, and it’s beautiful, and it’s perfect. In its imperfection. It is perfect. But what they want to make us feel like is shame. And they want to make us feel like, oh, I can’t, I can’t wear a bikini or I can’t do this or I can’t screw that noise. No, you love you. You love you. You love your sexuality. It is okay for you to be sexual. It is okay for you to enjoy sex, it is okay for you to enjoy your body it is and anyone who tries to make you shame for that fear, obligation guilt. So, you tell them you write a letter, dear abuser, with your BS. I am no longer going to be held captive to your body shaming. Go bleep yourself sideways with an unlubricated baseball bat. Thank you very much. And when you’re done with that go pound sand. You see where we’re going without take your power back? Absolutely.

Okay, I think that is it. Yes. Okay. That is, it. So, next week, I’m going to have Marcia Diane on she has written a book. She is a fellow therapist. She is a wonderful, very calm, she’s so calm. Oh my god compared to me. She is so calm. Well, most people compared to me are so cool. She’s like, seriously, so calm. So anyway, so we’re going to be talking to Marcia Diane. And that’s it so you guys go have a great week. Take good care of yourselves. positive affirmations do the mirror work gentle with you; you have a right to exist. And I think that’s the big thing is that narcissists don’t want us to exist so we have a right to exist so they can go pound sand. All right, go have a great week guys, and I will talk to you later. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

The post 01-29-2023 The Hoover (Why we get pulled back in) appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or internationally. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, a little bit of housekeeping. So housekeeping, please don’t message me on my personal Facebook page. I will see it, I will read it, but I will not respond because then that gives you access to my whole private life, and I don’t want that so. So, if you want to message me, please message me on my LPC page. It’s Kris Godinez LPC public speaker, or you can message me on We Need To Talk With Kris Godinez page on Facebook. Or you can go to my KrisGodinez.com. And there’s a way to get a hold of me by email. So, you can do that. That would be great. I would appreciate that.

Let’s see any other announcements I can think of… Happy New Year guys! Happy New Year’s. So, diving into current events. And I think this is important. So, people have asked me to comment on the murders in Idaho. I will talk a little bit about that on Wednesday. They also asked me to comment on the recent family murders that have gone on in the country.

So, we had Dharmesh Patel drive over a cliff with his entire family, and they lived, thank God. So, with his wife and two kids, him in Northern California over a cliff; it was intentional. And they survived, which is a miracle seriously because that stretch of road is super dangerous and is known for accidents. They decided this was not an accident. So, they decided this was not an accident. It was intentional. He is being charged.

The other murder that we have was a murder-suicide. Michael Haight, an interesting name, killed his entire family. He killed his wife, her mother, and their children then, and then himself. Eight people he killed, and the wife had just filed for divorce. So, the moral of the story. And I posted something on Facebook recently about, you know, did your abuser use the car as a way to rage at you? Is that where they did their raging and their abuse? Abusers…. Okay. Gathering thoughts: Hold on. If there had been prior calls to the police, at least with the Haight case, prior calls to the police, domestic violence, that kind of thing. If there is any involvement or needed involvement of the place in a relationship, and you go to file for divorce, do not allow them to live with you! Do not allow them to have access to you.

You want to go absolutely no contact when you file; you’ve got to have a safety plan. You got to have a safety plan; you’ve got to have Where are you going to live? Have you filed a restraining order? You should know what your safety plan and I think a lot of targets of abuse make the fatal mistake of thinking that the abuser or that the person who’s they’re divorcing or whatever. And again, I’m not diagnosing anybody. I have not seen them personally. So, but based on what I’m reading in the newspapers, well, newspapers, wow, hello old, um, you know, CNN, that type of thing. Based on what I’ve been reading, it’s like, okay, this person filed for divorce, then the spouse flipped out, losing control. And what is the ultimate way that people that are abusive can get control? Is it to kill them. Did I mention that abusers want us dead? Did I mention that that is the ultimate form of “Look how powerful I am.” So, before you divorce an abuser, you have got to have a safety plan together, you have got to have a safety plan. Where are you going to live? How are you going to support yourself? You know, are you going to need a restraining order? In a lot of cases? Yes. You know, getting an attorney, all of that stuff, you’ve got to have your ducks in a row.

I don’t know what the particular circumstances were; I don’t know if this was an exchange of children. I don’t know if he just stormed his way into the house. I don’t know if they were still living together. But you’ve got to cut as much contact as possible with these people. In the second case, I suspect it’s something similar. And there, I just pulled up an article on this. If I can find it, I don’t have my glasses on. So, there we go.

Okay, according to studies done and compiled statistically, by USA Today, the Associated Press, and Northeastern University, on average, for the last two decades, family violence, mass shootings, or mass killings happens every three and a half weeks. So, for the last two decades, every three and a half weeks, a family is murdered. That’s unacceptable. That’s unacceptable. It’s not okay. It’s not it, you know, and then you factor in things like the Pettit case, you know, and other cases of domestic violence, you factor in other cases that are, you know, not marriages, but the relationships and the cause was either financial or relationship that pushes the abuser to finally do whatever they’re doing. And that is unacceptable. Three and a half weeks, every three and a half weeks, for 20 years, two decades. Three and a half weeks, there was a mass family killing based on domestic violence, financial relationships. Wow.

Mental health is not okay, here in the US of A, we need help people. So again, police were called. Did anything happen? Probably not, you know, there needs to be better training, there needs to be more public awareness. Seriously, share these videos, guys. Share these videos people need to understand when you’re under the thrall of an abuser. We tend to minimize. Oh, they would never do that. Oh, they wouldn’t. Because we would never do that. But you’ve got to understand you’re probably dealing with a dark triad, somebody who is psychopathic, somebody who would kill, and somebody who will kill themselves to not face the consequences. So, if your ex or soon-to-be ex has ever had the police called on them, has ever threatened you, has ever done anything physically to you, or made jokes about, you know, hiding your body in the desert or whatever. And yeah, they do that. You’re going to want to make sure that you do not have access. They don’t have access to you. And they may have limited access to the kids if you can prove that they’re, you know, cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs don’t underestimate them, I think is the big thing is because we minimize to try to comfort ourselves, you know, like, oh, it’s not that bad. Oh, no, no, they would never do it. Well, yeah, they would.

So, denial is deadly guys. Denial is deadly. Denial is deadly. And getting into a car with an abuser is deadly, too. I can’t tell you the number of times my dad played chicken with me and my sister in the car. And it was terrifying. And I think he would have been perfectly happy if we had been hit head-on. He would have because then he wouldn’t have died, quote-unquote, alone. So, they use the car as a means to terrorize. They use the car as a contained captive, literally, audience; they can rage as much as they want. And you are trapped in a car with this person driving like a maniac. You know what I’m saying? It’s terrifying. It’s terrifying. So, you know, if they’ve ever done that to you, ah, don’t ever get into the car with them again, ever. It’s not safe. It’s not safe. If they would do that, if they would, yeah, they’ll be happy to drive off a cliff, and I think my dad would have if he thought he could have gotten away with it; if he thought he could kill us all he would have because just any way, the point being is every three and a half weeks for 20 years, two decades.

Kris Godinez  09:47

We have had family mass killings based on domestic violence or financial issues which are still domestic violence. You know, or things like that. And that is unacceptable. absolutely unacceptable. So, there it is.

Now, this leads me into our topic for today, which is why you do not want to do couples counseling with an abuser. So, recently, I’ve had several people be like, but you know, they, they’re saying they want to go now. So, it’s to the point where, you know, the person is saying, that’s it. I’m out of here, I’m done. And now, the abuser is like, Oh, well, I’ll go to couples counseling with you.

Okay. If they were truly interested on saving the relationship, let us be clear here, they would have gone to couples counseling the first time you suggested it. Let’s just be clear. So, somebody who really wants to save the relationship is going to go yeah, you’re absolutely right, we’re not working this is we need some help. We don’t know how to communicate. Let’s you know, let’s go to couples counseling. That’s a completely different horse of a different color, if you were, if you will. So, um, Healthy People, when they recognize that there is a problem. They go to couples counseling, they learn the communication skills, they work on the issues, and the behavior changes in abusers. They won’t go, what they will say, myriad of things, but what they will say are things like it’s a waste of money, it’s too much money. We don’t need it. I don’t need it. You’re crazy. You need therapy; they do that. They also do the whole psychology is, you know, a load of bull. And I don’t believe in counseling, bla bla, bla bla, bla bla, right? So then, when the target of abuse finally gets to the point where they’re like, I’m done, I’m out of here.

Then the abuser suddenly goes, Oh, or I’ll go to therapy with you. Let’s do couples counseling. Okay, Danger, Will Robinson Danger, danger, danger, danger, danger, okay? Not a good idea why? Well, for one thing, the target of abuse, when they hear that they go, hallelujah, they’ve changed hallelujah, they get it? Oh, my God, they’re going to, they’re going to hear me finally. Nope, they’re not. What they’re going to do is they will go to couples counseling just long enough to hear all your complaints, all the things that they you know, this is this is ego wounding going on when you’re like, you don’t hear me you don’t…, because then of course, they’re never wrong. They’ve never done the wrong thing in their entire lives seriously.

So, they’re there, you know, gathering information, and then they will turn it around and spirit right back out at you. And it’s all your fault. Seriously. So, it’s dangerous to go to couples counseling because now they know your plans? Because they’ll be sneaky. They’ll say things like, well, you know, you were talking about leaving me. Well, what were you going to do? And then you, in your naivete, tell them everything. Well, I was going to go to Aunt Martha’s to stay, and the kids were going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, well, now they know exactly, well, how you are going to leave them exactly. And they will then take that information and make sure that you are never able to leave them. They will isolate you, they will financially bankrupt you, they will do whatever they need to make sure that you cannot enact your plan that you had for leaving. This is why it’s dangerous to go to couples counseling with an abuser.

So, then I have people go well, but you know, I want it fixed. And they’re saying they want to go okay, back it up, back, back it up, back it up. Okay. In the very beginning, when you said, Hey, I think we need help, and they gave their list of excuses that tells you everything you need to know. They’re not interested in changing. They are not going to change. It is not going to happen. Healthy couples, when they realize that there’s communication issues because, let’s face it, you’ve got two people coming from two different families of origin that need to kind of figure out how to communicate, and sometimes they need help, you know, especially for families of origin, we’re kind of, you know, not healthy. So, the healthy couple come together and go, Hey, we’ve got some stuff we need to work on. Let’s go to a counselor and figure out how to communicate, figure out how to have a healthy relationship. They do, and it changes, and they’re healthy, and they’re happy. And they love each other, and they’re respectful.

With an abuser, there’s no love. They don’t know what love is. They don’t, they don’t understand love and respect the way you and I understand love and respect. Its power and control. The 100% there is nothing but power and control going on with them. So, they’ll say that they’ll go, they’ll gather information to use against you, and it’ll start happening right after that session like, well, why did you say that? And how dare you tell the counselor that I blah, blah, blah, you know, I watch porn or whatever. Okay? So, they’ll start throwing stuff back at you that you said in session. And it’s dangerous because, like I said, they’ll start pumping for information. And that inner child inside of us wants so badly to be loved that we tell them everything that now they know exactly what we’re thinking where we’re at. And then they use it against us. They manipulate it against us so that we cannot leave. So, it is dangerous going. And the other thing that happens is they’ll go to couples counseling, they have a good counselor that, you know, is clued into kind of what’s going on the good counselor will go, Okay, nope, I want to see you both separately, and then we’ll have a little session together. They can’t stand that. They can’t stand that because they’re not hearing what the spouse is saying to the counselor, they can’t control it, because they try to control.

If you’ve ever sat in on a session where there was an abuser and a target of abuse, they will try to control the session. And it literally is like herding cats. And when they realize they cannot manipulate the counselor. That’s when they explode. That’s when they rage, that’s when they storm out, and they demand that the spouse go with them. I mean, it’s just it. There’s a reason I don’t do couples counseling anymore. And that is it. So yeah, they are just it’s, so they’ll storm out, or they’ll start saying that the counselor is incompetent, or they’ll start saying that the counselor is wrong, and they know more, and bla bla bla bla bla, if any of that occurs, you’re dealing with an abuser, they’re not going to change.

So that kind of then leads me into the second part of this. Well, so, and then the danger is, again, like I said, they will use that as the fuel to scream at you to abuse you to throw things at you physically, verbally, mentally, emotionally, etc. They’ll use it as a way to stop you from leaving. They’ll smear you like nobody’s business. They’ll, Yeah, it’s just not a good idea, guys. I’m sorry if they’re hitting you if they’re verbally abusing you. If they’re financially abusing you, do not go to couples counseling with them if they’re refusing couples counseling when you offer, okay, there, here’s your here’s your huge red flag. It’s starting to look like a communist party out here. Because it’s like there are so many red flags. You know what I’m saying?

So, they’re showing you who they are, they are healthy people when there is a problem. Let me put it to you this way. Okay. A healthy person when they break a bone, they don’t wait to go to the doctor. They go to the doctor and go, Hey, problem needs to get this fixed. Bone gets fixed. Done. Right. Okay. Abusers, what they do is that kind of magic thinking. It’s like, well, if I keep putting it off and putting it off, putting it off and putting off they’ll drop it. Okay. So no, I’m not going to go, No, it’s not going to happen. But then you know, the abuse keeps going and the person keeps going, No, we need help. And so, then they’ll finally go, but then they’ll either blow it up in the first session, which often happened, or they’ll go for a few times and declare the counselor incompetent, that they know more. And we don’t need that. We just need us. Oh, my God, how many times did I hear that? So yeah, they’re dangerous.

They’re not going to change. Guys, I cannot emphasize that enough. Abusers don’t change. Leopards do not change their spots. They don’t. They don’t change. They are incapable of it. And they do not want to change. There is no desire to change. Healthy, normal people. When something goes wrong. We get introspective and we go…. Fudge, how did I do that? How did you know what? Holy cow, let me fix this. I don’t like this behavior. I want to change it. Let’s make sure this doesn’t happen again. And then it doesn’t happen again. They go to counseling; they read books, they take care of themselves, they apologize to their partner, they make the whole thing. But people who are truly disordered do not.

They don’t think they’ve ever done the wrong thing in their life. And once you know you’ve pointed out they’re not perfect, the punishment is going to begin. So, they’re going to ramp up the abuse. They’re going to ramp up the nastiness. They’re going to ramp up all of this other stuff. This is why you cannot go to couples counseling. It’s not going to help; they’re not going to change, they’re not interested. They’re not they’re not so that’s why it’s dangerous because it makes the abuse a lot worse than it was, and now, they’ve got more ammo to use against you. So, the best bet you have is to go to an individual to get strong work on your self-esteem. Self-Esteem Workbook. Glen Shiraldi. CPTSD from Surviving to Thriving Pete Walker, The Disease to Please Harriet Breaker.

Kris Godinez  19:45

All of these books, all the things, all the books, you know, read the books, get help, get EMDR therapist work on the trauma. You know, it’s important because you get strong, you get healthy, you’re able to see clearly what’s going on and not think it’s you. Because that’s what a lot of us did it’s or do is that we go, oh my god, it’s me, it’s me, it’s me, and then you’re like, Well, no, it’s not. So um, yeah. So there that is.

Now we’re going to switch gears into how do you know you’re with a bad therapist? Okay. So okay, first of all, don’t go to couples counseling. If you’re with an abuser, period, exclamation point, don’t do it. Don’t do it, Frenchie. It won’t end well, it will not end well. So um, okay. So, all right. If you choose to go to couples counseling, a good therapist will ask questions ahead of time. I interview people before I take them on as clients. I don’t do couples counseling anymore. For the very reason of there were so many abusive couples, or abused couples coming in. And I was like, No, this is not what I want to be doing. Because you can’t, there’s no room. There’s, there’s no, there’s not there, you can’t work with them. And they’re not going to allow a partner to grow. So, you want your therapist to interview you.

Okay. So early on in mine and John’s marriage, we had communication issues, both of us came from families of origin that were not healthy. John and I are not abusive to each other John and I love each other; we want to be able to talk to each other in a way that both of us can hear. So, we went to couples counseling, and John went, as soon as I suggested it, it was like, Look, this is a problem. We’re not… this is not working. We need to fix this. So, we did, and we went, and it was great. And we, you know, read all the books, and we worked on it, we practiced, and you know, all of that stuff. So healthy couples do go to couples counseling to refine communication skills, or to fix communication skills, or to learn how to, especially if they were not taught in their family of origin.

Abusers go to couples counseling because they need to hear what the spouse is saying.

So, a healthy spouse will have no problem letting the couple’s counselor talk to the spouse separately, for the for the first session or two, you know, just to find out what’s going on, you know, and then vice versa, and then the other one comes in December, and then you do the two together so that there’s a full picture. Okay, a healthy spouse doesn’t have a problem with that. An abuser has a problem with that, because they want to know exactly what you’re saying. And I cannot tell you the number of times that I would insist on that. And then couples counseling totally stopped, they quit. So, you want your couple’s counselor, if you’re in a healthy relationship, to have the freedom to interview, you interview your spouse, and then the two of you come together. And if you’re healthy, there won’t be a problem with that, because you’re interested in fixing the problem. If your counselor is not well-versed in personality disorders, the abuser is going to run the session. Seriously. So, and that’s what I said, it’s like herding cats. So, you will try to start talking to the spouse, and suddenly they’re interrupting, or the spouse is saying something very deep and important, and they’re interrupting, or they’re bringing something up that was handled three sessions ago, you know, and trying to reignite that argument. And that’s another tactic they do. So, a good therapist will just shut that crap down as soon as possible. I mean, seriously, it’s like, Nope, we’re not doing that. This is what’s going on right now. You need to wait your turn. Of course, they don’t like being put in their place. And they don’t like having to wait their turn.

So, and they’re very, that’s another clue for, you know, student therapists out there. Interrupting, interrupting is a clear sign of a personality disorder. They interrupt like nobody’s business, especially if a topic is coming up. It’s genuine, it’s authentic, and it’s going to affect their ego. So, watch for interrupting. That’s a huge red flag. Bad counselors don’t control the session, okay? They allow whoever’s disorder to control the session. You don’t want that. And you want to stop the counseling. If it looks like you got with a therapist that doesn’t know what they’re doing. You want to stop the council. You don’t want to go to with couples counseling with an abuser anyway. A good therapist, when they do the interviewing, will ask point blank, are they verbally abusing you? Are you being yelled at? Are you being kept up at night? You know, all of the questions, right? Because you need to know what’s going on so that you can help this person either, you know, get away from them or seek their own therapy or whatever. So, anyway, where was I with that? So good therapists will do that. They’ll do the individual and then come together for the couples counseling. If there is any abuse going on, they will cut out the couples counseling completely. They’ll be like, No, you need your own therapist. You need your own therapist, you know, and that’s it.

And now as far as firing a therapist goes, so not every therapist is a good fit. Let’s just be clear. Everybody’s got different personalities, I am very outgoing, very to the point. You know, I don’t allow people to sit there and wallow in their story. I don’t. I’ll let them do it one, maybe two times. But then after that, it’s like, okay, you’ve told me this sad song 1000 times? What’s the plan? How is this helping you? You’re not getting better by telling me your sob story. So, let’s move forward. And here are the tools, you know. And a lot of times people don’t like that. So, they’ll be like, Oh, you’re mean, you’re this, you’re that? You know, I’m firing you. Okay.

What’s funny is a lot of times, they come back. Because probably counselors are probably the first people to hold them accountable. So, you know, it’s in people don’t understand counseling, either. A lot of people have this idea that counseling is a one-and-done, you know. I just need somebody to talk to. Okay, well, we’ll go. Let me explain what counseling is. And this is what I do when I’m interviewing my clients so that they understand and I ask them, What are you looking for? Oh, I just need somebody to talk to. Okay, well, maybe you need a warm line. Or maybe you need a life coach because what counseling is, is diving to the deep issues. It’s like what happened in your past that’s causing the behavior that’s going on now. And a lot of times, people don’t want that. They just want the quick, they want the easy, but it doesn’t happen that way. There is no easy button. So, good counselor let you know what you’re in for.

Okay. So, like, I tell people upfront, it’s like, you’re going to be doing homework, you’re going to be doing homework, and I’m going to expect it to be done. And if you don’t do it, I’m going to ask you what’s going on stopping you. And we’re going to analyze that, you know, and so it’s really, it’s about moving people forward, is what it is, if you’ve got a counselor that is not holding you accountable is not, not giving you the tools you need, not helping you practice with those tools, because half the session is spent practicing, it’s like, okay, so you know, help, you know, practice. Let’s practice with this. Let’s do the positive affirmations. Let’s work on this. Okay, you had a nightmare. So how did you handle it? Okay, well, what if you did this next time? You know, it’s, it’s doing that kind of thing. So, um, not every therapist is going to match everybody, okay? And don’t feel bad about hiring a therapist if you need to. So, you do want to give your therapist, you know, what’s going on? It’s like, well, I just don’t feel like I’m getting what I need from you and give them a chance. If you feel they’re somewhat good. Give them a chance to kind of okay, well, let’s, let’s do this. Instead, a good therapist generally will follow where the client needs to go. Does that make sense? So, it’s like the client will kind of lead the therapist so that the therapist can do the interventions that will help the client keep moving forward, okay.

But if you’ve got a bad therapist and you need to fire them, don’t be afraid to send them an email. If they’re a bad therapist, you don’t like them. They’ve Okay, here’s the signs of a bad therapist. They don’t ask you questions. They don’t tell you what the therapy process is like. They don’t ask you what you’re looking for or how you can help. They talk about themselves all the time. They interrupt you. They make you wrong. Then you feel worse, leaving the therapy than when you walked in. Those are all signs of a bad therapist.

Now, that is not to say that therapy is all going to be sunshine and roses and unicorn farts. It’s not. It’s hard work. But a therapist should be that, you know, Rock of Gibraltar, Guiding Light, I got your back, you’re doing a great job. Keep going. Yes, this is hard. Yes, this is not fun. And I want to validate that. And it will pass. So that when the client leaves even after a really heavy session, and a lot of sessions are heavy, because we’re dealing with abuse, and we’re dealing with inner child and we’re dealing with stuff that happened when we were itty bitty babies. And it’s a lot of stuff. You always want to end the session with hope. I just don’t understand therapists that send clients out into the world. Without doing that last 5/10 minutes of let’s review. Look at all the good things you’re doing. Look at how well you’ve come, look how far you’ve come, look at where you were when you started and look at where you are now. And this is just a minor little bump in the road. You know, you give them hope, you give them encouragement, you give them and that’s what it is. We are there to encourage to give courage to our clients because the courage has been taken away from them by these asshat abusers So yeah, so you want to always in the session, even when it’s hard when even when it’s a tough one, with encouragement and hope, and, you know, validation, because this is tough, and a lot of us didn’t get validation when we were kids, a lot of us didn’t get validations, obviously, when we were in the emotional abusive relationship, or the physically abusive relationship, so helping that client see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it is not a freight train is huge.

So, if you’ve got a therapist that is constantly sending you out, and you’re like, Oh, my God, find a different therapist, you need somebody who was uplifting, who can help you through the hard times, you know, be with you when you’re going through the tough stuff. So, like, how do I explain this? Sometimes my clients will tell a story, and I will find myself tearing up because I relate, you know, and so I’ll let them know, it’s like, that touches me, I totally hear you, I get it. You’re not alone. You know, and I don’t tell my story. I just validate them. Wow, I get it. You’re not alone. I feel you. And that is amazingly healing. For so many of us that have been told, You’re too sensitive. You’re crazy. You’re, you’re imagining things, it’s all in your head, blah, blah, blah, blah, to see where I’m going with that. So, you don’t tell your story. You just let them know that you relate. And that is huge. Letting somebody alone, is huge.

So, firing a therapist, simple, send him an email, dear, so and so I’m terribly sorry. But you know, this is just not the right fit. Thank you very much. I’ll be asking for my medical records. Sincerely, me, you know and be done with it. Make sure you cancel the appointment, etc, etc, etc. So, like I said, not every therapist is a good fit. Some people need a different modality. Some people need a different personality. Some people don’t know what therapy is. And when they get into it. They don’t want to dive that deep. And that’s okay. And when they’re ready. What I do when somebody does that, it doesn’t happen very often. But when it does, I will just send them an email back. Thank you so much for letting me know if you ever change your mind. You know where I am. Oh, done. Because I think a lot of clients think that when they fire somebody, that it’s the way that a disordered family does where it’s like, you know, done! Grrr. you know, and I’m always like, hey, the door’s always open, you know? Can you give me you know where I am. A lot of times they come back, so not always, but you know, so there is that.

So, you don’t owe the therapist anything right here. A lot of clients say, Oh, my God, I’m so afraid to fire them because I’ve been with them for years, and years and years and years and years. And there’s been no movement, and I just feel like I can’t, no, you can, you absolutely can’t if you are not getting what you need. Fire them. So, this is the time invested fallacy; okay, it’s that we do the same thing with relationships. Isn’t that interesting that we do that with therapists too. So if you’ve been with a therapist, and there’s no growth like you’re not growing, you’re not moving forward, you’re not learning new stuff, you’re not, you know, absorbing it or whatever, then you need to look at a different therapist, it’s not obviously what you need, you might need a different modality, you might need a different personality, you might need a different, I don’t know, you know what I’m saying. So don’t be afraid to fire them. And don’t fall for the time invested fallacy. It’s like if this person was an investment, which it is because you’re paying them money every two weeks or whatever. If you’re not getting what you need out of it, why are you continuing to throw money at that? No, you need to go to a therapist that is going to give you what you need. And then there’s the whole. Oh, I don’t want to hurt their feelings. Well, if they’re not disordered, their feelings are not going to be hurt. If they’re disordered, they’ll send you back a nasty email. I’ve seen that happen, too. So, in which case, I then encourage the client to file a complaint with the board. But you know, I mean, it’s so yeah, so there that is, so firing, your therapist is a must if you’re not getting what you need from them. It can be as simple as sending an email and or making sure to call and say, this is not working out, I need to cancel my appointment. Thank you very much. And you just leave it at that.

If the therapist says why you don’t need to answer them, you can say hey, I’ll send it to you in an email, and you could do that. And that way, there’s no back and forth. It’s just you know, this is not what I need. I don’t feel like I’m growing, etc. But thank you very much, and hopefully that’ll be it.

Sometimes clients want to fire the therapist because the therapist is getting too close to the real issue. So, you want to make sure that you’re firing them for the right reasons and not because you’re afraid. So that happens too you know, and that’s when you need to talk it out with your therapist. Boy, howdy, I’m terrified, and I want to run, and I wanted to fire you because you frightened me or you scared me when you said bla bla bla bla bla bla, which happens because we’re saying what’s never been said. We’re saying what the family of origin didn’t want heard. We’re saying what the abuser does not want known. And it can be frightening and scary. So, you know, and I think people need to know that about therapy. It’s not all sunshine and roses, a lot of it is a lot of hard, dirty work. But it’s so rewarding because then you’re free, you are free. Once you work on all of this stuff. You don’t have to have toxic people in your life. You don’t need to talk to your parents. If they’re abusive, you know what I’m saying? It’s freeing, frightening, but freeing. So anyway, I hope that helps. All right, let us dive into the questions. Here we go. Okay. And I need to make this big because I cannot see the words. Oh, there we go.

Okay, can a relationship come back from cheating with counseling? Well, it depends. So, here’s the deal. Narcissists are generally serial cheaters. So, they will cheat, cheat, cheat, cheat, cheat, cheat, cheat, they’re cheating all over the place. If they’re a narcissist, no, absolutely not. Does cheating happen in younger relationships? Sometimes it can, especially if the family of origin was not a good example. So, if the person is truly, here’s the key, truly remorseful, like, truly is getting their own therapy, seriously working hard on what heck made them go and cheat, if they’re working on that working on their own family of origin, working on their inner child, with a therapist that’s helping them understand the who, what, when, where, how, why, okay, and there’s a great book called after the affair. And it’s for both the person who has been cheated on and the person who did the cheating.

Now, this is not for personality, disordered cheating. So, two different things. So, there’s various reasons why people cheat. A lot of times what I heard when I was doing couples counseling, is that the needs were not being met. And the partners were not communicating. And so, one partner thought that that would be a great way to get their needs met, and make the other one jealous, which is not the way to handle a relationship. But again, how mature are we talking here? That’s kind of a young thing. That’s why I see that a lot. Or I saw that and a lot of younger couples, not so much the older ones. But the younger couples, because it was kind of like a tit for tat thing. You’re not getting me what I want. So, I’m going to do this, you know. So, maturity helps. Individual therapy for both parties helps after the affair is a great book for both parties. And if they’re not disordered, if they’re not disordered, if there are no other affairs, okay? If there’s nothing else going on. There’s no porn addiction. There’s no other narcissistic traits going on. Yeah, it can, it can get healed, absolutely 110%. But you’ve got to remember, breaking trust is like, it’s that Japanese art when pottery gets broken, and they repair the crack with gold. So, it’s repaired. But you can always see where the crack was. So, it takes time to rebuild trust. Now, here’s something to think about.

Kris Godinez  38:23

When you’re dealing with a narcissistic abuser or an addict. This goes both ways. They want immediate trust back immediately. They don’t want to earn it. They don’t want to work for it. You should just trust them. Why? Well, because I’m tired of not being trusted. Okay, you did this, this, this, this, and this. Or you used again, when you said you wouldn’t, um, and you expect him to trust you again. Oh, really? You’re going to have to show me I’m from the show me state, you know, so they want immediate trust. And that’s a huge red flag, a huge red flag because that says they’re not done with their addiction or they’re disordered one of the two or both. You can do both. So yeah, they want immediate trust back, and that’s not going to happen, and there is always going to you can always see that crack. You can always see where it happened. But with both parties working on themselves and working on the relationship and being open and honest and trust worthy, eventually, trust will come back, and you’ll be able to continue on the relationship. But it’s going to take open honest communication and not hide anything. Okay? Trust takes time to rebuild. And the only way to rebuild trust is to be open. Honest. No lies No. Obfuscation. I don’t even know if I said that. Right. But it’s like, everything needs to be seen through it cannot be, you know, oh, I’m guarding My phone, or I’m you know, whatever. Uh-huh. No, you’ve got to be open and honest. And you’ve got to show that you’re trustworthy in order to build back and earn that trust. And it takes time, guys; it takes time; it takes probably a year or more of solid, changed behavior and solid trustworthiness in order to have the partner trust you again. So that’s why affairs are so damaging. And that’s why it drives me crazy that people are unwilling to go to couples counseling when there’s first issues.

Like I said, if there’s first an issue, you don’t wait for that bone to, you know, to grow on its own; it’s going to grow in crooked. You know you want to go as soon as there’s a problem. You want to get it fixed. You don’t wait; you want to get it fixed. So, if somebody is waiting, okay, they’re, they’re an abuser, probably. And if somebody is avoiding counseling, that’s a red flag as well because they obviously don’t want to look at themselves. So, but yeah, with an affair, yes, it can be rebuilt, but it’s going to take a long time to regain that trust. And you can always see where the crack was. That’s always going to be there. It’s not going to be like, Oh, we’ve done couples counseling, suddenly, everything’s sunshine, roses, and unicorns. You know, it’s going to be building the trust. So, there it is, after the affair, I don’t know who wrote it, but it’s on Amazon. Great book, highly recommend it. So there that is, okay.

Um, is avoidance a form of abuse, not taking accountability, not acknowledging behavior, not seeing codependency tendencies, etc? That is abuse that absolutely that’s, that’s what abusers do. They don’t take accountability. They’re not responsible for a damn thing they’ve ever done in their entire life. They don’t change their behavior because they don’t see anything wrong with it. So, a healthy normal person is introspective. You know, when things go wrong, what is the first thing most of us do? We go, Oh, fudge, what did I do? Oh, how can I fix this? What? Where did this happen? How can I make it right? What’s the amends I need to make? I need to change this in myself. And then the behavior changes, and we work on ourselves, and we make sure it doesn’t happen again. And when an apology is given, it is a true apology. It is I hurt you. I am ashamed that I hurt you. I am mortified. What do you need, so that I can make amends to you so that you know, you’re okay. And I’m okay. And I want to make sure this never happens again, and we go get therapy and make sure it never happens again, or we get introspective and make sure it never happens again. So, it’s really it all of that’s not avoidance. That’s those are the signs and symptoms of somebody who’s an abuser. Not taking accountability. Let me read that list. Again, not taking accountability, not acknowledging their behavior, and not seeing the tendencies. Absolutely, that’s classic abuser behavior. It is because Healthy People take responsibility, personal responsibility. It’s like when stuff goes sideways. You don’t point your finger out and go, Oh, it’s you. It’s you. It’s you. That’s what an abuser does. A healthy person goes yo, my bad Clean up on aisle five. I need the bucket. Can somebody give me the mop? Thank you. And you clean it up, even if it’s mortifying. Even if it’s awful, even if it’s, you know, and there’s been times I have stuck my foot in my mouth, Oh, dear God, and I will clean it up. I will own it. I am so sorry. I hurt you. You know, what do you need? How can I make amends? And then I make sure that behavior never happens again. But an abuser, they will pretend that they never heard anybody, or they’ll slough it off. Oh, wasn’t that bad? Oh, I Oh, it was a joke. No, it wasn’t things said and just by those guys are meant. So yeah. So that’s kind of what you want to look for. That’s I mean, those are all behaviors that are not healthy. Not normal. Okay. All right. Yeah. Because a healthy normal person. If somebody says, Well, I’m seeing this behavior, instead of either taking it into heart to the point where you’re paralyzed or denying it, you will go you’ll question it. You’ll question is like, do I do this? Oh, yes. In this instance, I did. Interesting. And you work on it, but an abuser either gets super defensive, or they ignore it, or they blame you, or whatever. So yeah, okay.

Does a narc stay married to someone they hate and then go to a therapist themselves in order to have the therapist side with them that the spouse is the bad one so that they feel superior? Yeah, they can. So, narcissists are known abusers are known for therapist shopping. So, they’ll usually pick a therapist that is fresh out of school and has zero experience. You know, I don’t really know any disorders. So, when I was going through school, they didn’t teach personality disorders. I had to get training on that on my own after I got my degree because they did not touch that with a 25-foot pole. And they should have been. That’s a disservice. So, yeah, they will seek out therapists that are brand new to the field and don’t have a lot of experience that maybe you’re not specializing in, disorders and things like that, you know, personality disorders, helping survivors, etc. And yeah, they will, they will absolutely, and you got to remember too, guys, and I’ve seen this over and over professionals like mine, so helping professions, police, lawyers, judges, psychiatry, they attract narcissists. So, there are a lot of narcissists in my profession. And that’s kind of what you want to avoid when you’re looking for a therapist.

So, if a person reminds you of your narcissistic abuser or fires them? Absolutely. There’s a lot of narcissists in this profession. And there are a lot of therapists that don’t understand personality disorders. There’s a lot of therapists out there that don’t understand what abuse does to a target. So, you want to make sure you get somebody who knows what the heck they’re doing. If your spouse suddenly goes to one of these therapists, and they start going, well, you’re this, and you’re that and you, you, you and my therapist said, Oh, my God, in my book, so you want to be a therapist, I talked about that. So, abusers will either pretend to go to a therapist and not really go to a therapist, or they’ll find a bad therapist. And then they’ll come back to the spouse and say, Well, my therapist said that your therapist was filling in the blank because the therapist is probably getting that person strong enough to get out. And a lot of times, it turns out, the abuser wasn’t even going to a therapist. They’re just making this stuff up. So, and especially if somebody is using a lot of psychobabble, that they’re not a counselor, that is a clear sign that they’re disordered because healthy normal people don’t do psychobabble, thank you, or word salad or any of that other stuff. So yeah, they do that. They absolutely do. And they look for a therapist that’s green. They look for somebody that does not know what they’re doing. And you cannot trust that what they’re saying the therapist said is something that the therapist actually said because nine times out of, 10 It’s not so, and at that point, you need to leave, you need to get out to save yourself. As sometimes I have people go well, I need to go see that therapist so I can set the record straight. It doesn’t matter, guys doesn’t matter. Nine times out of 10 that therapist never even said what the abuser said they said so no, don’t do that. So yes, abusers do do that. Absolutely. 100%.

Okay, where can someone go if they need to tell their story and experience not being gaslighted about it?

Kris Godinez  48:01

As many times as needed until they can feel that there’s no need to be ashamed. Okay, so here’s the thing. There’s a difference between being gaslit. And then there’s a difference between wallowing in the story. Okay. So, when you’re in therapy, the purpose of therapy is to move forward. If you’re coming into therapy, and you’re telling the same exact story every single time, and not doing any of the work and not moving yourself forward, then that’s not therapy. Okay.

So, telling your story is hugely important. But along with telling your story, there must be movement forward. If there’s not, then it’s wallowing. It is. So, if you’re going and telling your story, and you’re not listening to the interventions, and you’re not taking the advice, and you’re not working the books, and you’re not moving yourself forward, so that you can understand that story. Or if your therapist is not, hey, let’s pick this story apart. Let’s talk about this particular part of it. That is telling your story and validating it, just telling the story. And being angry, which happens with clients, especially if they come from a family where nobody knew how to talk. Nobody knew how to communicate; nobody knew how to validate. Nobody knew how to move people forward, they will get stuck in their story, and they will wallow in it. And they will use that as the excuse to stay stuck. Or they’ll use that as an excuse to use substances. So, it really depends on what is going on. There’s nothing wrong with telling your story once or twice in therapy and then analyzing it. Tell me about this part. When and How old were you when this happened? What were you thinking? Are you feeling how retelling your story is helping you or is it hurting you? That’s what you want to start analyzing. Does that make sense? So, it’s not gaslighting to stop somebody from telling your story if it now is hurting them. Does that make sense? Gaslighting is when you tell somebody, oh no, that didn’t happen to you. That’s gaslighting because you’re saying that this event that happened to you didn’t happen. That’s gaslighting. Okay.

In therapy, it’s like, okay, this happened to you and get it. I totally get it. And now what? How are we going to move forward from this? Because that happened over here. You’re here. You want to be over there. So how are we going to get from here to here? Does that make sense? So, you don’t want to get stuck in that story. What happened to us is important. 110% Absolutely. But you do not want to unpack your bags and live there. And a lot of times, clients when they’ve come from exceptionally abusive households where the abuse happened when they were Itty Biddy, I’m talking, I’m talking itty bitty, they have a very difficult time moving out of that into the present and moving forward. And that’s what you want to help them with. So, it’s fine to tell your story. As long as you don’t unpack your bags there. Does that make sense? And there’s a difference. You can tell the difference. When somebody is unpacking their bags there. It’s the same story every single time. And there’s no movement, okay? If it’s the same story, but you’re working on it, and there’s movement, that’s healthy. Does that make sense? So that’s how you tell the difference.

And gaslighting is when you deny what happened. Gaslighting is when you go. No, you didn’t. That didn’t happen. Bla bla bla Nananana. No, that’s not what’s happening there. It was like, Yes, this happened. And now what? How are we going to get you going to where you want to be? Here’s this goal you have over here, and it’s wonderful. I love this goal. This is great. So how is what happened back here keeping you in the present from reaching that goal? What do we need to tear apart with that? And really work on it and really work through it. So there that okay, um, okay.

Do narc parents pit children against each other? Oh, good. God. Yes. And pit children against the parent. Oh, I’m sorry. Do narc parents pit the children against the other parent? Yes. Parental alienation and also the children against each other? Yes, they absolutely do. It seems narcs thrive on creating chaos and drama. 110%, you are not mistaken. So, narcissists have this crazy thought that it’s got to be an I win, you lose situation. There are no amicable divorces. There is no amicable custody in an abusive relationship ever once. Let’s be very clear; amicable divorces do happen? Honest to God. It’s like; sometimes people just grow apart. And they’re kind of like, you know, I love you. But this is not working for either one of us, you know, and it’s not healthy for the kids. And so, they separate, and they generally don’t need a court to do it because they’re healthy, okay?

The ones who end up in court are the ones where the abuser is fighting, or every last toothpick, and every last fork and the toaster and the dog and everything else. So, abusers have this; I must win at all costs. And I do mean all costs. They don’t care who they have got a scorched earth policy, mutually assured destruction. They don’t care, just like those two that killed their entire families. And then you know, the one that drove the family over the cliff. Didn’t care, didn’t care, didn’t care. So yes, they need drama and chaos, the way that Healthy People need oxygen seriously. And it’s an amusement for them. So, it’s amusing to them to turn the kids against the healthy parent. Which is why if you’re divorcing one of these Jack wagons, you need to get the kids into therapy as soon as possible. Trauma therapy. And what you’re going to say is it’s the trauma from the divorce. You don’t need to say I’m getting you into a therapist because you’re crazy. Divorce is traumatic. The kids need therapy, and you get them into a trauma therapist, and then the trauma therapist starts working on the relationships.

Isn’t that interesting? So that’s what you want to do. You want to make sure that they’re in with a trauma therapist, for sure. As soon as the divorce is even thought of, make sure in the divorce decree the kids get to go to therapy absolutely needs to be in there. Because otherwise the abuser will stop it. They don’t want the kids to go to therapy. They don’t want a second set of eyes on anything. So yeah, you want to make sure to do that. So, they turn the kids against the other parent, parental alienation. And how do I explain this? It’s a game. So, if they can get the kid to turn against you, it’s a win for them, and they enjoy the suffering that they see you going through as you do somersaults to try to win that kids love back. Okay. Which is why you need to have them in therapy point blank to stop that right here right now. And the other thing that drives me crazy is here in Arizona. There’s this reunification thing. So, unless there’s been physical abuse, like real physical abuse, they insist that the abuser have access to the kids. That’s unacceptable. It’s stupid, and it’s unacceptable. Don’t get me started anyway. So, they are reveling. They revel in turning the kids against you because they know it’s going to hurt you. Because those kids were your life. And so, they do that. And then the other thing they do, and this happened in my family, kids were turned against each other. Why is it entertainment for them. That’s why they are the golden child and the black sheep. And those two are always pitted against each other.

And so, there’s always this nastiness going on. And they live for that which is delicious to them. That is their cocaine that they love that. And they thrive on that. So yes, they absolutely do that. That’s another reason why you want to get the kids into a trauma therapist as soon as possible so that the kids are united and not being torn apart by the abuser, and the abuser will do that. They’ll pick one kid to be their ally, and they’ll pick the other kid to be the scapegoat. And oh, my god, the damage is insane. And so, it’s all intentional; they must win at all costs. And I do mean all costs; they don’t care what happens to the kids. They certainly want you to suffer. So, you want to get the kids into a trauma therapist as soon as possible! As soon as possible and make sure it is in your paperwork. Okay.

Um, when I’m interviewing therapists, they can be invalidating and almost re-traumatizing how to deal with that afterwards. Okay. So, first of all, if you realize if you feel invalidated or if you feel re-traumatized, that is not the therapist for you. So how do you help yourself afterwards? Kind of again, it’s that. Is it them? Is it you, okay? If you’re feeling invalidated, that’s your perception. Those are your emotions. So, it’s kind of like, okay, that therapist was not the right one; I do feel invalidated. So, write it out, write it out, dear bad therapist, I feel invalidated, and then burn it, you know, until you can find a good therapist. And then that would be something to talk about with your good therapist. It’s like, wow, I went to this person and was interviewing them, and I felt completely invalidated. And the only thing I can tell you is that, again, there are therapists out there that don’t understand abuse, that have never been abused themselves, that have never studied it. They don’t understand what’s the word I’m looking for… insidious.

Kris Godinez  58:03

The erosion of self-esteem is, how critical it is for validation and how healing it is to be like, you’re not alone. Yeah, I hear. Yeah, yeah. Okay, we can work on this year; we’ll go with that. So, write it out. It’s not you; it’s them. And you have a right to your emotions, you have a right to your emotions, and keep interviewing therapists. Now, one of the best ways to get a good therapist is to talk to friends, talk in the support groups, who have you gone to, who did you like, you know, who was a good therapist in your area, that kind of thing. That’s a great way to read reviews, you know, and find one that fits your personality and fits what you need; you know, you have a right to find somebody that’s going to help you heal. So, if you’re feeling invalidated after interviewing one write it out, you know, this person was not the right fit, they validated me, this is what they said, This is how I felt, this is what it reminded me of. Boy howdy, I don’t want that again, and then burn it. Let it go. Validate yourself, do the mirror work. Hi, good to see you. Have a great day. You know what? Not everybody is going to be a good fit. And I have the right to feel the way I am feeling, and I will continue to interview therapists until I find the right one, and it’s okay. And I am a good person. And I like myself and then walk out. Seriously. We have to be our own cheerleader. Sometimes guys, we have to be our own cheerleader, especially in the beginning. And especially when we’re trying to get the healing going. So be your own cheerleader. Be your cheerleader. Be gentle with you the polar opposite of how family of origin or how the abuser behaved, gentle, kind, loving, soothing, engaged present. That’s what you need right now. So, give out to yourself, give that gift of you to you. That’s really what that’s all about. And that’s what you’re going to do whenever you feel invalidated when you’re interviewing until you can get to a good therapist, and then that is a perfect topic to bring up with a good therapist. It’s like, wow, while I was trying to find you, I went through this, and I went through this, and this is what I was thinking, and this is what I was feeling. That’s how old I felt. And this is how icky I felt. And let’s work on that. Yep, I think that’s great. And that’s going to give your new therapist. Wow, lots of stuff to help you. Do you see where I’m going? And lots of tools to help you through all of that.

We are very. What’s the word I’m looking for? We take things very personally. We do when we’re coming out of a family of origin or when we’re coming out of an abusive relationship. We take things intensely personal, and how often did we hear You’re too sensitive? You’re You’re crazy. You’re you, you, you, you, you you guns. So, I just want to validate that we are very, it’s like raw, it’s like a raw nerve. So, when somebody invalidates us, it is like a raw nerve. So just gentle, gentle, gentle with you, and it’s a great topic to bring up with a therapist you finally do land on, so yeah, that that rawness, you know, so while you’re healing, you want to start re-parenting yourself. That’s why the mirror work is so important. So gentle with you. Okay. All right, guys, we are out of time. You guys have a great week, sweethearts. Be gentle with you. Please, please, please be gentle with you. I want 2023 to be the year if you truly re-parent yourself, be gentle with yourself, and give positive affirmations. I love that Inner Child. Work on Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi got this all right. Have a great week, guys. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about it. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the U.S. or internationally, they will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

The post 01-08-2023 No Couples Counseling Bad Therapists appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

01:02
OK, we got a dog. So we have Moana, like the Disney movie Moana. And she is a collie mix. She’s a rescue. She’s awesome. I love her. She is settling in, it’s been a week, and she’s finally kind of chilling out. I know it takes three, three, and three. So you know, three days and then three weeks, and then three months. So she’s moving in the right direction. We’ve got a trainer that’s going to come out on Wednesday. So we’re going to work with her to get her on a leash and learn how to walk. She’s terrified about going out on a leash. So we’re going to kind of work on that because I want her, eventually, to come with me when I do the meet and greets because I travel, and I don’t like leaving my dog alone. So well, not alone. But you know, with somebody, somebody who’s not me or John. So anyway, there is that.

Also, current events. Okay. So this week, I have decided to kill my Twitter account. So I am no longer on Twitter. Basically, I

02:01
I went to go look on my Twitter feed, and I was getting all of these notifications from all of these people that I don’t even follow, and I don’t know, and I’m like, What is going on? So I go on to Twitter, and there was like me following like, 5000 people, and I’m like, Ah, I don’t follow 5000 people, and if I do, they’re like, psychologists, counselors, life coaches, you know, things are related to what I do. It was like political stuff, and you know, advertisements and I’m just like, What is going on? So it was like 5000 people I did not follow…. somebody did that. And I was like, oh, out hell No! Biotches. Ah, we’re not doing that. And then number two, it was like, they started getting rid of journalists. I’m like, well, for somebody who is screaming about freedom of speech. That’s pretty much the antithesis of freedom of speech. So yeah, I decided to kill my Twitter, so I’m not on Twitter. So if you want to follow me, you can follow me on Facebook, you can follow me on Instagram. And that’s it.

You know the idea of social media is I think a good thing because it did bring a lot of people together but it’s also been used to be divisive. And I don’t like that. I don’t I don’t like that if I wanted my feeds filled with hate speech and nastiness and ads for things I will never use.

03:31
You know? No, no, thank you. I did not sign up for that. The reason I signed up for social media initially was to connect with family and friends that are scattered all over the globe. You know, I did not connect for nastiness either. Lord help us there is enough of that around in the real world, let alone the virtual world. So yeah, so there we go. It’s like if that which offended your soul get rid of so that’s what I did.

So anyway, I you know, and here’s the thing on social media, and I know we’ve talked about this before, the ones who are the trolls tend to be narcissistically personality disordered because they’re getting off. They’re getting their supply by upsetting someone by hurting someone by doing nasty things. Who needs that? I don’t need that. You don’t need that. The world does not need that. So, anyway, they’re endeth the rant, so I’m off of Twitter. So there we go. Okay, so let’s see.

Um, today, we are talking about contrast and compare. So a lot of people have question they’re like, Well, how do I know if somebody is a narcissist or it’s their addiction talking or what is the deal? Well, here’s the thing. Addiction, whether it’s drugs or alcohol, or sex, or exercise, or any of these things, always mimics narcissism. It does. So when an addict is in In the thralls of the addiction, they act very much like a narcissist. It’s all about them; their wants, their needs, their drug, their, you know, whatever. And I sometimes have people go, Oh no, each addiction is different. I’m like, No, the behavior is all the same look at it, you know, the behavior is all the same. So narcissists tend to be addicts. So let’s be clear about this. And this is where it gets confusing because people are like, Oh my god, I had an addiction coming out of an abusive relationship. Am I a narcissist? Well, if you’re not doing all the narcissistic things, then no. So let’s just be clear, a lot of times, people come out of abusive relationships, and they do get addicted to drugs and alcohol because we’re trying to numb ourselves from all of the moo going on over there, you know what I’m saying?

05:50
Yeah, so, um, so the behaviors mimic each other. So I wanted to be very clear about that. And you cannot tell if the person has got a personality disorder, as long as there are drugs and alcohol or whatever the addiction is sex exercise, whatever, as long as that is the main focus of their life, because their thinking is not going to be clear, it’s going to be very much directed towards getting those dopamine, serotonin Nora epinephrine is going right because that’s why we do it. It’s like an alcoholic, a drug addict. Oh, this feels really great. And I can make it feel even better. You know, that’s what we do. So um, so we you cannot tell if a person is narcissistic, or borderline or whatever, until you get the addiction off the back, the monkey off the back of the person, and then you can see what the behaviors that are there, or the behaviors that should be there that are not, does that make sense? So I wanted to do a contrast and compare, and I pulled these off of Psychology Today.

This is who wrote this Peg Streep. Is he or she an addict first or a narcissist first? And again, you cannot tell until you pull the addiction off. If you really want to know if your partner can change after substance abuse treatment, you need to ask yourself these five questions as your partner overcomes his or her addiction, are the two of you still feeling distant? And I think that is a huge red flag. So healthy, healthy, relatively healthy. People who are not narcissistically disordered, when they go into treatment, and they start getting it, like really start getting it like they start working the steps or whatever the program is, I mean, there’s a whole bunch of different programs out there, AA is the one that’s most recognized. So when they start working the steps and they start taking responsibility, okay? Because that’s one of the steps it’s like, first of all, you got to turn it over higher power, whatever. And then you got to start going, Okay, what did how who did I hurt? Who did I hurt with my behavior? How can I make amends? Can I make amends, you know, and, you know, keep moving upwards on the steps, and then helping other people and all of that good stuff.

So, with an addict, if they’re just an act, just an addict. So if they’ve got complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, once they start working the steps, they start taking personal responsibility, they realize the amount of shame they have, and they want to change it, they’ll go get a therapist, and start working on the complex post-traumatic stress disorder that caused the addiction in the first place. Look, we don’t pop out of the womb going, Hey, I’d really love to be an addict. We don’t. We become addicts when for people that are not narcissists, we become addicts, when we’re dealing with a high level of abuse, neglect, harm, you know, verbal, mental, emotional, physical, sexual, you know, and we’re trying to know, so once we come out of that, that fog, right, and we started going, oh, oh, I’d like to change that. You start working on that stuff, and you get real and you get humble, like, seriously, the biggest thing I see that happens with addicts that are still in love with their drug of choice is they’re not humble. They cop an attitude they think that they know better than everybody else. Oh, I can do this on my own. I could white knuckle it, I can you know, I can have one. Well, one is too many and 1000 is not enough if you’re a real addict, you know what I’m saying? So, um, it’s the humbleness it’s like, when you finally get it. You get humble because you’re like, that could have frickin killed me. Oh, my God and you start working on it. Right? You start working on the behaviors that were driving the addiction.

What usually happens with a narcissist their addictions can be drugs and alcohol.

10:00
absolutely, it’s usually sex addiction, is what I’ve seen. And when they are asked to work on it, they never are able to get humble. There’s no humble. There’s no there, there’s no there there. So they’re not able to get humble, they’re not able to take personal responsibility, they get pissed off at their sponsor, they get pissed off of having to go to these meetings. Yeah. And I’m just like, Okay, I know, you’re showing me who you are, you’re showing me who you are. So if and when, it’s when it’s the addiction and the abuse that’s driving the addiction behavior. When the person starts getting healthier, they turn towards their partner for support, and there’s a closeness there, and they support each other.
So, for example, the sober partner doesn’t bring in drugs and alcohol, you know, to enter the house when this person is trying to recover. But you know, a disordered partner would and narcissist remember are, so one of their hallmarks is sabotaging the partner. So if the partner is dealing with PTSD and an addiction, and they’re trying to get clean and sober, they’re going to be, Oh, come on. Oh, come on, just one. Oh, come on. Come on. You can do it, you know, they sabotage, they sabotage. So the closeness when you get the drugs off, and you start dealing with the real stuff, which is the abuse and neglect, the harm the this, that the couple will start getting closer because they start talking communication, communication, communication, just like with real estate, with a relationship, it’s communication, communication, communication, that is the key seriously, and honest, deep real communication and what our narcissist incapable of that would be honest, deep real communication, just in case you weren’t clear on that. So that’s why if the person is going through some sort of 12 Step Program, or some sort of sober program, and there’s still this distance, there’s still this, you know, and that’s a red flag that is a red flag. Okay, hold on getting back to the other ones.

12:11
Okay, does your partner announce that they’ve made the most progress of anyone at AA instead of sharing with you their vulnerable feelings, like sadness, or loneliness, or fear, or doubt, or, you know, whatever, because when you’re going through the 12 steps, you’re having to really take a hard look in the mirror, and you’re having to go ooh, I did this. I did that. Oh, damn, I owe this person an apology. Ouch. You know, and you’re dealing with that instead of being, like, chest-pounding on the greatest thing ever.

Yeah, realize if you were raised by a narcissist, that’s a flea. If you can kill that flea, then you’re not a narcissist. If you, if you can go, Oh, wow, that’s my ego talking. What is up with that? Okay, ego, what do you know, okay. It’s kind of like a version of the inner critic. But it’s like a false. It’s like a false cheerleader. So like, the real cheerleader would be like, I love you good job, good job, keep going. The false cheerleader is like. I’m the best ever. I don’t need a I can do it on my own bla bla. So that’s the false one. That’s the ego talking. So the false cheerleader is the ego going on the best ever on the look how great, instead of really getting real and going for the vulnerable emotions. Wow. You know, I went to a meeting tonight. And you know, I was talking with my sponsor. And I had this realization, this is when I started drinking holy crap, you know, or started using or started, you know, abusing or whatever. And, you know, and you get real with it. Now, psychopaths can fake real emotions, but they can’t keep them up for very long. So it’s consistency. You’re looking for consistency. So if a person is consistent with being vulnerable and consistent with calling themselves out and going, oh, yeah, Clean up on aisle five. Yeah, I did that one. Where’s the bucket? Okay. You know, I mean, that’s a good sign if they’re real about it. And they make true apologies, which is I own this, I did this. Let me clean it up. What can I do to make amends? And if the other person and here’s the thing that people always get stuck on? It’s like, what if the other person doesn’t forgive me? Well, that’s on them. That’s not on you. You’ve made the offer. You’ve said I screwed up. Here’s my responsibility. I am so sorry. What can I do to make amends? And if they go, you know, then okay, well, that’s on them. You know, you’ve done the right thing. They’re doing what they need to do. You let it go. Right. So and that’s a tough one for a lot of addicts to get. Um, so the ego you want to be careful of the ego. It’s like if they’re just like, Oh, I’m the greatest thing ever, and I don’t need AA I’m going to be a sponsor in six months. Oh, Lord. No, no, thank you.
Okay. Does your partner show a pattern of exploitation

15:00
Session entitlement and empathy impairment, the triple E, the hallmark of pathological narcissism even after they stop using. So again, you’re looking at behaviors. What are the behaviors? So they’ve got a sense of entitlement, you know, a mile and a half wide, and they have no empathy. They can’t relate. They can’t, you know, they can’t understand how another person is feeling. And exploitation, they’re using people. They use people, use people, use people. That’s narcissism. So that’s the difference. Does that make sense? So when somebody gets clean and sober, they may have been doing those things when they had drugs and alcohol or whatever their addiction was on board. But once they get clean and sober, that’s when you go, oh my god, I did this and this, and holy crap. Get with a therapist. Let’s work this out. Where did I get this from? Where did I learn it? What’s going on? You know, and you fix it. So hang on.

16:01
Does their emotional sharing feel empty, shallow, or fueled largely by 12 Step jargon or psychobabble instead of genuine remorse or sadness for the pain that they’ve caused. I cannot tell you the number of times when I was doing couples counseling when I did in person I did couples counseling I don’t do it anymore because I’m doing videos so it’s I don’t like doing video couples because I can’t it’s too hard to try to read body language and stuff. So but when I was doing in person couples counseling oh well you know the psychobabble psychobabble psychobabble, jargon jargon jargon jargon jargon. Okay, well, what are you doing? Oh, well, did you know again word salad, right, psychobabble. If somebody’s doing psychobabble to you if somebody is doing, you know AA jargon or recovery jargon, but there’s no substance behind it. That’s a huge red flag that they are a narcissist not just an addict. So there is that okay.

Um, does their emotional okay. Are they secretive about their treatment experience as though you couldn’t possibly understand what I’ve been through? Unless you’ve been there too. Oh, my God. When I was working at the homeless shelter. I had people try to pull that on me all the time. And then I would tell them the story of my childhood, and then they would shut the hell up, which is what they should have done. So because they don’t want to get sober. That’s thing you got to understand the addiction wants you dead, much like a narcissist, it wants you dead and they will come up with any excuse in the book for you to not stop using. Right? So oh, I’m not going to listen to this therapist. They haven’t had the life I’ve had they’ve never lived on the streets. They’ve been ba, ba, ba you see where I’m going with that? It’s all moo. It’s all moo. It’s all moo. It’s all moo. And it’s the addiction talking, trying to find it desperately trying to find a way to not stop using.

18:08
So yeah, that’s, that’s another hallmark of a real narcissist. Okay, so this next one is narcissism and drug addiction. What happens when the two disorders meet? So just to briefly go back through narcissism. They’re both boastful, pretentious, emotionally distant, jealous, devaluing others, intermittent positive rewards, etc, etc, etc.

How do narcissistic drug addicts behave? They have unrealistic demands for the therapist, other patients, and anyone else involved in the treatment program, that is very true. When the criteria when their criteria of perfection is failed to be met by others, the narcissist usually storms out of treatment. That is very true. Narcissists tend to deny that they are addicted to drugs, alcohol, sex, exercise, or whatever. Regardless of what it looks like, they describe their drug use as boosting their energy and life.

How are narcissism and drug addiction related or addiction related? The cycle of narcissistic personality disorder and addiction are quite similar. The cycle of addiction involves cravings, cravings, growing and growing tolerance, and withdrawal. Narcissistic crave the feeling of superiority, and they are always seeking new and better triumphs that lead to greater glory. When narcissists do not receive the admiration they crave, such as through criticism, indifference, or disrespect, they exhibit significant distress. So again, a narcissist, I swear to God, they will say love me or hate me, I don’t care. Just don’t ignore me. So they would rather have criticism yelling, angry, hurt, upset, why aren’t you getting sober blah, blah, blah, than nothing. And that’s your sign. Here’s your sign. Okay. And this article is or is this from the Dawn Residential Services.

So, okay, how okay? Are narcissism and drug addiction related? Yes, absolutely. The similarities between narcissism and drug addiction the similarities between narcissism and drug addiction are that the individual depends on something external. To fill the emptiness inside. The narcissist relies on admiration and attention from other people which can be real or imagined for their well being. They create situations of accomplishment so that people will congratulate them or even become envious of them, and act in ways that make others pay attention to them. This is accomplished in a similar manner to the way an addict ensures their drug supply is constant and secure. They put a lot of time and effort into crafting situations keeping up an appearance in order to fill their emptiness. Nevertheless, the attention and admiration that they’re that they require increases over time, just like how an addict needs to increase their dose of alcohol, drugs, sex, whatever, when they feel as though they are not receiving the adequate amount of attention and admiration they experience anxiety and ultimately depression. So that’s a collapsed narcissist.

Overlapping characteristics between narcissism and drug addiction include self-medication, emotional avoidance, shame, denial, minimizing, normalizing blaming, low self-esteem, controlling behavior and or manipulation, codependency, black-and-white thinking, and anger slash rage. So this is why so many survivors that are in relationships with either a narcissist or an addict have a hard time discerning is it? Is it narcissism? Is it the addiction? What’s going on? You’re not going to be able to tell until you get the addiction off the back of the person until they quit using, and then you’re going to be able to see it’s super clear. Like I said, if it’s just a thought, it’s just an addiction. No addictions are serious. But if it’s, you know, they can kill you. And they want to kill it. So if it’s just an addiction and not a personality disorder, they will have like an awakening, I guess, is the way to put it. It’s like going through the steps. And going, Oh, Mamma mia, whoa, whoa, holy cow. You know, this is how I need to change my life. This is what I’m going to do to change my life. This is how I’m going to get a therapist. This is what I’m going to, you know, do you see where I’m going with that? Whereas a narcissist, when they’re called out on their stuff, what do they do? Oh, you’re wrong. It’s you. It’s you. It’s your you, you, you, you guns, no, no, no personal response. It’s all about personal responsibility. Taking personal responsibility, you know, you screwed up, you got to make amends. And if they don’t accept the amends, well, you’ve done the best you can leave the door open, and maybe they’ll come back around and accept that maybe they won’t, you know, so it’s about the humbleness. It’s about the realness. It’s about, honestly, the vulnerable emotions. Narcissists are not able to be vulnerable. They have to be right at all costs. And I do mean all costs. They will shoot themselves in the foot in order to go to the grave, right? They would rather die, right, Than, you know, be wrong for two seconds seriously, which is stupid, which is also why I left Twitter.

Okay, so those behaviors that I just listed, those are both addiction behaviors and narcissistic behaviors. So that’s why it’s so hard to tell which is which. And you can have a dual diagnosis. So like I said, I’ve said this many, many times. Any any condition can be a dual diagnosis. You can have narcissism and an addiction issue. You can have narcissism and depression, you can have narcissism and borderline, you can have narcissism, and you know, fill in the blank, it’s like, whatever. Whatever is out there, you can have a dual diagnosis, and usually, addict or addicts will stick around if it’s just addiction and no personality disorder. And they’re able to get the monkey off their back and have support. They’ll continue growing. They’ll continue working on themselves. They’ll eventually become pure supports. In some cases, there’ll become sponsors after a year or two, hopefully two. You know what I’m saying? But a narcissist. As soon as the going gets tough, they quit. They they’re not willing to look at themselves. They’re not willing to get vulnerable. They’re not willing to deal with the real issues. It’s too threatening for them. They’re just unable to cope with it.

Okay, basically, if you want to help somebody who uses expect it, you don’t know if it’s the addiction or if it’s the narcissism, help them get clean. And if they refuse, or if they keep going back to it, or if once they get clean and sober, boy, you can see that there are narcissists to run do not walk to the nearest exit. You cannot change and a narcissistic personality disorder. You can’t, you can’t, you can’t force an addict to get clean, either, you know, all you can do is say, Dude, you killed yourself, here’s, here’s some help. Hope you go get it. You know, and I think that is the scary thing for a lot of families is that they want to control, obviously, which makes sense because they don’t want their person to die. But you know, if they’re not willing to work on their stuff, then there’s not much you can do. And narcissists are not willing to work on their stuff. That is the big thing. I think that is the difference because a person who comes out of addiction and realizes what they’re doing, is working on the stuff and is genuine and real. And they’ve got a good sponsor, and they’re, you know, talking, communicating and making amends and taking personal responsibility.

Narcissists won’t do any of that, never, they will never, they’ll never do a genuine apology, they could do the fake crocodile tears, but the behavior will change. So the behavior will continue. So if they continue to exploit, manipulate, no compassion, no empathy, you know, sense of entitlement, then they are a narcissist. So there is that. Okay, one more thing.

So alcohol use disorder can be mild, medium, or severe. Based on the number of symptoms you experience, signs and symptoms may include, and this is from the Mayo Clinic, being unable to limit the amount of alcohol you drink. So, again, it’s like one is too many, and 1000 is not enough. It’s like they start drinking, they can’t stop binge drinking, that’s another thing that they do, okay, wanting to cut down on how much you drink or making unsuccessful attempts to do so.

27:07
Spending a lot of time drinking, getting alcohol or recovering from alcohol use, feeling a strong craving or urge to drink alcohol, failing to fulfill major obligations at work, school or home due to repeated alcohol use, continuing to drink alcohol, even though you know it’s causing physical, social work or relationship problems. So like I said, the addiction wants us dead, much like a narcissist. And sometimes, people’s rock bottom scares the hell out of me. Because not everybody’s rock bottom is the same. Not everybody’s rock bottom is the same. Sometimes people are able to go, you know, I’m drinking too much. I’ve got a family history. I’m going to stop, right? Other people, it’s like they have to go through this physical hell before they finally stop. So and once they finally get it, thank God because it wants us dead. It wants us dead. Just I cannot stress that enough. Much like the narcissist the addiction wants the user dead. It does.

Giving up or reducing social or work activities or hobbies to use alcohol, using alcohol in situations where it’s not safe, like driving or swimming, developing a tolerance to alcohol so that you need more and more and more to feel its effect. Or if you have a reduced effect from the same amount. experiencing withdrawal symptoms is called post-acute withdrawal when you don’t drink or drinking to avoid these symptoms.

So there are two drugs on the face of the planet for sure that will kill you dead if you stop them cold turkey. One is alcohol because it has a paradoxical effect. So initially, when you drink the alcohol, it’s a downer. That’s why a lot of us drank because it’s like, oh my god, I can stop being so anxious. Oh my god. That’s lovely. That’s great that as the alcohol leaves the system, all of your metabolic responses go in the polar opposite direction. Drives up blood pressure drives up your heart rate. you’re dehydrated, it’s terrible, and you can die from it. If you’re drinking enough alcohol, you can have a seizure and seize out and die. Let me be clear, this will kill you. If you don’t get help. It’s going to kill you just like a narcissist. In fact, one of my clients brilliant, it’s a liquid narcissist. And I was like, wow, it’s true. It’s a liquid narcissist. It wants you dead. It does. And the other drug that will kill you is benzodiazepine. If you go cold turkey. This is why you never ever, ever stop a medication cold turkey you cannot. You’ve got to discuss with your doctor, is it safe to stop or do I have to wean down off of it because there are physical things that can happen. You can have a stroke. You can have a seizure you Heart attack all sorts of stuff, huh? Yeah, so you need to know that.

Okay. Now the next one is drug addiction. So they’re very similar. I want you to notice it’s not it doesn’t matter what the substance is. It’s the behavior, feeling that you have to regularly use the drug daily or several times a day, having intense urges for the drug to block out any other thoughts, over time needing more of the drug to get the same effect, taking larger amounts of the drug over a longer period of time than you intended. making certain that you maintain a supply of the drug, spending money on the drug even though you can’t afford it. Not meeting obligations or work responsibilities, cutting back on social or recreational activities because of drug use, continuing to use the drug even though you know it’s causing problems in your life or causing you physical or psychological harm, doing things to get the drug that you normally wouldn’t do, such as stealing, driving or doing other risky behavior while you’re under the influence of the drug, spending a good deal of time getting the drug using the drug recovering from the drug or thinking about the drug failing and your attempts to stop using the drug experiencing withdrawal symptoms when you attempt to stop taking the drug. So isn’t that interesting? Isn’t that interesting?

31:18
So it doesn’t matter what the substance is, guys, and I keep telling people that it doesn’t matter what the substance is. It’s the addiction. It’s the behavior. It’s always the behavior always goes back to behavior. So basically, contrast and compare when a person is in the thrall of the addiction. They absolutely act like a narcissist. Why? Because if it’s if it’s drugs, you know, it’s the drug narcissist. If it’s alcohol, is the liquid narcissist. It’s all the same, really, in the behavior when you think about it. When the person gets clean, right, the drugs are gone, and they’re supposedly getting help, but that behavior is still there. Okay, now that’s a horse of a different color. Now we’re dealing with narcissism, really. And especially if they use the jargon, you know, the psychobabble, the jargon, then you know, they become they try to become a bigwig in AA. I’ve seen that too.

So if you’re going to AAA, here’s my recommendation. When you start, there’s going to be people that are going to want to be your sponsor, you be picky as hell. Here’s the requirements. They need to have a minimum of three years of sobriety; minimum, AAA has a really bad habit of trying to push people to become sponsors after their first year. I don’t think it’s a good deal. I don’t I don’t think it’s a good idea. Because that first year of getting sober, you’re just keeping your nose above water, right? Second year. You’re kind of like, oh, I can do the backstroke. Okay, that’s okay, okay, I got it. I’m so okay. Let me try this. I stroke. Okay. Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Okay. Okay. Let me let me try the butterfly, you know, and you start learning how, right third year, you’ve kind of got a down. It’s like, okay, I got a got a good grasp and hidden meanings. I’m doing what I need to be doing. I’m talking to my sponsor, I think I’m ready for responses. And then, when you find a sponsor, make sure they have no more than three to four sponsees. Now, there are narcissists in AA, that will have 15 sponsees. That’s ridiculous. When you’re first recovering, you need somebody you can call up at three o’clock in the morning and go dude, meet me at the coffee shop, talk me off the ledge because I frickin want to use. Okay, if somebody’s got 15 sponsees, they’re not going to have time for you. They’re not. it’s a recipe for failure. So get somebody the rule of threes, get somebody who’s got three years sobriety, at least minimum, and somebody who has three to maybe five sponsees, I would say four would be okay, three would be better. And then that way, they’ll have time for you and then hit your meetings, get a therapist. It’s like, okay, great. You’re sober. That’s awesome. So that’s lovely that you worked on. Tipping the bottle, but what tipped the bottle? I love that saying, oh my god, what caused the bottle to tip in the first place? What was driving the addiction? Does that make sense? So you get a therapist, and you start working on what is this? What is this cesspool under here? Let’s get this cleaned out. Let’s get it pumped out. Let’s get rid of it. Let’s clean this out. So that’s what you want to do. So all right, okay. Now think I’m going to hit the question.

So basically, to recap just to so addiction acts just like a narcissist. It does. Narcissists are narcissists. They will not get help. They will, they’ll go for a little bit, but if they cannot manipulate the situation, they’ll quit. If they can manipulate the situation, watch their ego because they’re the ones that gather all of the sponsees to them. All right, they want to be seen as a guru, remember, so they do the psychobabble. They do this, the jargon this to that. And it’s none of its real. So um, so yeah, so there’s that. So you can only tell what’s really going on, really, if you get the drug off. So one time I had a client come in, it was so sad.

35:23
They were using heroin. And I said, Okay, when was the last time you used and she said, this morning, and I said, okay, sweetie, you need to go to a detox center because I, I’m not going to be able to help you. When you’ve got drugs on board, you got to get you clean and sober first. That is the first issue because this will kill you. If you keep using right? Pitched fit through things, slammed my door, told me to go copulate myself, you know, because she wanted to keep using basically. And it was like, and I told her, I said, I know you’re mad at me. But when you’re ready, I’m here. And she never came back. And I don’t know what happened to her. So that’s just an example of how the addiction wants you to keep using. So it will sabotage because prior to that, she had told me she’d been clean and sober for like a week. And then she comes in and says, Oh, I use this morning, and I’m like, Oh, baby. No, no, you know, so that’s how insidious addiction is. It is sneaky. It’s covert. It’s a liquid narcissist. It’s drug narcissist. It’s exactly how the narcissist behaves. And their endgame is the same. Both addiction and narcissists want the target dead, ded, dead.

36:45
There it is. Can’t tell what you’re dealing with until you get the drugs off board. The behaviors. Narcissistic walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, takes a dump like a duck. It’s a duck. So there it is. All right, let’s hit the questions showing. All right.

Do narcissists always think they know better than everyone else? Oh, my God. Yes. Holy cow. I, Yes. So narcissists will go into any situation and be an expert. Like literally any situation. So, for example, you know, they’ll be at a party, and somebody will ask them something about construction. And they’re like, you know, some other job, and suddenly, they’re an expert in construction. So yeah, they will do that because they need to be seen as superior, better than everybody else knows, everybody else, you know, has a better grasp on life than everybody else, you know, that kind of thing. So, yes, they need to be seen as an expert on everything. And they will just start talking out of their hind end and not know what they’re talking about. So, yeah, they absolutely do that. My late narc mother was like that, but at the same time, she played dumb, learned helplessness, and pretended not to understand or know anything. So it’s this weird contradiction is this weird? Contradiction. Diametrically opposed so on the one hand, they need to be experts on everything but on the other hand, they also get narcissistic supply by the learned helplessness.

So let’s talk about learned helplessness for a quick minute; learned helplessness is where they’ve learned that they get attention when they play the innocent little victim, and I just don’t understand blink, blink…you know, and it’s a way for them to get narcissistic supply. So if they can’t get the narcissistic supply being the expert on basically everything, then they get the narcissistic supply by playing the victim. So again, that’s covert. So you’re dealing with an overt, covert thing, and Narcissus, so back it up, back, back it up, back it up. What narcissists will do is they will switch between the different forms of nurses so the overt is like that. Look at me, look at me, I’m the expert, and everything bla bla bla covert is the victim, right? I don’t know anything, and I don’t know how to do this, and you need to save me and, gosh, why doesn’t anybody call me anymore? Nobody loves me. I’m going to go to the garden and eat big slimy, hairy worms. That’s covert, right? Because they’re the victim. Right? Then there’s somatic, which is all about the body, and it’s they switch back and forth between the different forms to get whatever their supply, whatever they need, just like a drug addict. Okay. So yeah, that makes total sense that it would switch back and forth.

39:44
Do narcs often get addicted to sex? Yes. 110% in almost every single case of when I was doing couples counseling, and I realized the partner was a narcissist. They had a sex addiction. And that includes porn addiction. They are very much addicted to porn and sex. Absolutely. Why power and control? Because if they’re the one that’s, you know, forcing it on whoever or they’re watching porn, or they’re whatever, it’s all about control. It’s all about control. It’s all about power and control, power and control. And they will use those addictions to torment the partner, you know, well, you’re not giving me what I need. So I have to go outside the marriage. Let me just grow on that one. And so they try to make it the partner’s fault. Well, it’s your fault. It’s your fault. I’m watching porn. It’s your fault that you know you don’t satisfy me. It’s your fault. But then, if the partner finally makes a move to leave, guess what happens? Oh, baby, baby, I’ll change everything.….You’re wonderful. You’re the best thing that ever happened to me. Blah, blah, blah, blah, Hoover, Hoover, Hoover. They’re heinous. They’re heinous, heinous, and remember, it’s not just men. It’s women to women can be addicted to porn. Women can be sex addicts. You know, it’s it. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. They usually are, actually. Yeah, it’s kind of scary.

My narc. Half-sister has relations with many different men, usually married from her work, and she thinks there’s nothing wrong with that.

41:29
Well, first of all, she’s having relations with married men that are unavailable. Not ever going to be able to be really with her. If she too, is married, she is putting her partner, you know, at risk. Even if she’s not married. She’s putting her partner at risk. And this is the thing that makes me so angry. If you have a partner that you suspect is cheating on you for the love of God and all that’s holy, go get tested. Go get tested for AIDS, and chlamydia. Oh, what was the old-fashioned disease that killed so many people? Begins with a P? Syphilis, syphilis. So aids, chlamydia, syphilis, gonorrhea, get tested for that. Because generally, if they’re sleeping with one person, they’re usually sleeping with more than one because they need a harem. They need a harem. They need multiple people to tell them how fabulous they are, and how great are, and how desirable they are, and how this how the external supply. So that’s what they do. So yeah, if you get out of the relationship, save yourself. They’re not going to change. It’s not about you. It’s not about your sexuality. It’s not about your desirability. It’s nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with their ego, and their lack of compassion, and their sense of entitlement. And yes, they usually do have a harem. They usually do. They need multiple supplies to make themselves feel good. So yeah, absolutely.

Okay, I wish I left the abuse sooner. My child has some traits of his mom that scare me. How do I tell the difference between fleas and full-blown narcissistic personality disorder? So everyone who was raised by a narcissist or somebody with a personality disorder picks up fleas. We all do. So it’s a matter of getting to a good counselor or a good trauma counselor and getting those fleas squished. Or when you see the behavior? Squish it. It’s like, Nope, we do not behave like that. No, we do not rage like that. No, we do not lie like that. No, we do not manipulate like that. That is not okay. And you put the smackdown. You don’t have to smear the other partner. But you do have to let the child know what is what they what is acceptable behavior and what is unacceptable behavior. And yeah, every kid that has to deal with a narcissist is going to pick up those fleas, or if they’re dealing with somebody who has borderline personality disorder, they’re going to have fleas, which is why I always tell people, it’s like if you’re going to divorce, which I highly recommend. When you do the divorce decree, you must have in there that the kids get to have therapy with a good trauma therapist. Now you don’t have to come out and tell them I’m getting a good current trauma therapist because you’re a crazy bleep bleep bleep bleep. You can say hey, they’re having trauma from the divorce.

44:26
That’s still trauma. And gosh, and it happens to work on what’s going on with the other partner, who may or may not be personality disordered? Hazzah it works. So make sure that you get in your divorce decree that yes, they get to have trauma counseling for the divorce. Absolutely. They’re not going to like it because they don’t want eyes on that. They don’t want anybody to know what they’re doing. So how do you tell if it’s full-blown or if it’s just fleas? If it’s full-blown, the behavior will change ever, ever, ever, ever. If the behavior changes, then it’s just fleas. It’s just learned behavior. And so basically, you start nipping it in the bud if you catch your child lying. Ah, we don’t do that. No, no, that might fly over the other house, but it does not fly here. So there is that. And then, like I said, get with a good therapist. Okay?
How do I get past feeling frozen or paralyzed every single time the narc pops up, text, the thought of them, etc. It’s really affecting everything. Well, that’s kind of normal. Actually, when you look at complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, it’s all about our fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So I strongly recommend getting CPTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. He deals with all of that, you know, it’s like how… process the trauma, process what happened, process how you process things, basically. So freezing is a normal response. It’s part of the fight-flight-freeze or fawn. So some of us are fighters. Some of us are flares. Some of us are freezers, some of us are foreigners, and you can switch between them, depending on what the situation is, in order to stay safe. That’s what kids do. You know, that’s just the way of the world when we’ve been confronted with a crazy parent. And oh, my gosh, this isn’t working, and they’re going to get me. What do I do now? Okay, I’m going to switch from freezing to fawning, you know, or fighting to fawning, or, you know, whatever, you know, and that’s what kids do to stay safe. So it’s part of the fight, flight freeze, or fawn response. So you want to work CPTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi.
So as your self-esteem builds, and as you’re understanding the complex, post-traumatic stress, and realizing why you did the things you did or why you’re feeling the way you feel when you see their name or whatever, it… Knowledge is power. And it helps bring back the safety and it brings back the security, and it brings back the certainty, which is what you want. And so you’re less likely to freeze, you’re less likely to find or if you’re doing it, you’re conscious about it. It’s like, okay, I’m dealing with this boss. That’s cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Here’s how I’m going to play it, you know, and it’s a conscious decision. It’s like, okay, fine. Okay, I know. I’m going to be doing that for the next 30 minutes. Okay, and not making yourself wrong. Do you see where I’m going with that? So I know it’s game-playing in the corporate world, but a lot of narcissists are CEOs, and it’s no Bueno. Twitter. Um, okay. Let’s see. Doo doo doo doo doo. Okay.
Will you be coming to Canada sometime in the future? There’s all sorts of stuff you guys would find fun. And places to take the dog. Avoid winter season. Oh, Lord, yes. I am planning on coming to Canada. It’s probably going to be. I’m trying to think when am I going to get up there. So we’ve got to get Moana, who’s my new dog, kind of in a routine, get her used to traveling and all of that sort of good stuff. We’re planning on being up there in May, is what I think. But nothing is written in stone yet. I want to make sure that Moana is doing good with the training and we get her secure, and I can find a dog house sitter that she’s safe with. So that’s my main issue. I mean, I would like to take her up to Canada, but I’m not sure we can do it that trip. But if we do go to Canada in May, it will either be May or June. Let me let me make that promise. It’ll either be May or June.

48:40
Because we’ll be up there at the end of May. So and it will be Vancouver. So we will be in the Vancouver area. I’m going to say June, let’s say June. I’ll be in the Vancouver area in June like early June, like first of the month. So that kind of thing. So we’ll do that. And I love Vancouver. I’ve always loved Vancouver. Vancouver is very awesome. So I love Canada, period. So um, yeah, so that’s what we’re planning on doing. Probably won’t be able to bring the dog this time. But eventually, we will. we will start traveling because I want to start traveling with Moana. I want her to come with me. I hate the idea of leaving her home with a dog sitter. I would much rather her come travel with us so and especially since she’s under 50 pounds. I can take her with me into hotels and stuff, which makes me very happy. Okay, so yes, June. Let’s plan on June, Vancouver, June. There we go. There we go. Okay. And then I’ll get that to. Also I’m going to at the first of the year, start looking into the cruise again. We’re going to do the Bahamas again. So I will get information on that sometime in January and we can start planning for a cruise. I think that would be a lot of fun.

Okay, how do you move past the feeling of abandonment?

49:59
Well, Dad gives the silent treatment on the golden child and called my dad out when I found out about his affair. He ignores me. Oh, okay. It is abandoned. It absolutely is abandonment. It is a form of punishment. It’s called. It’s called the cold shoulder. It’s withholding. It’s an effort to get you to not call him out on his stuff. Okay. So it is abandonment, it is abuse, it is neglect. It’s, it’s a form of manipulation. Because when somebody is shunned, when somebody is ignored, when somebody is, you know, I’m not, I’m not talking to you, you know, that kind of thing. It lights up the same pain centers in the brain as physical pain. And that is on purpose by them. Somehow, they know, it causes a great deal of pain to the recipient of the shunning. And that’s why they do it because it gets results because how many kids are able to stand up to that? And not eventually at some point, especially if they’re little turnaround and beg for forgiveness? Please talk to me, please talk to me. Ah, ah, this person is doing that they by the by now live your life. Go pound sand, Buh bye. Bye now. You don’t need them. You don’t need them. So it is a betrayal. It absolutely is. Because they set these golden children up, right? And then as soon as a golden child goes, holy crap, this is no bueno oh, what is going on here? Hey, this is not okay. Then they punish the golden child. And now you’re the scapegoat. And that’s the thing. It’s like the rolls can flip on a dime. And it’s very confusing for the kids. You know, it’s like suddenly the scapegoat is now the golden child, and the golden child has now scapegoat or now, you know, gold child’s the ignored middle child or you know, whatever. I mean, it’s just it’s ridiculous. So yeah, it is betrayal. So my recommendation would be right in burn a letter, do not send it! do not send it. They’re not going to get it there. This behavior is ingrained in them. They’re showing you who they are. They’re not going to get it right and burn a letter, Dear Dad, how freaking dare you, you S.O.B., and then just let them have it in a letter, you know? And then, when you’re done at the very end, take your power back. Take your power back. We’re done here. Dude. You’re terrible. Dad. Good dads don’t do this. You don’t get to live rent-free in my head. One more second. Go pound sand. And preferably, do yourself with a baseball bat that has splinters, sideways. Yeah, take your power back and then burn it. Burn it. Let it go. You can’t change them. You can’t make them see that what they’re doing is wrong. You can’t make them see that they’re in the they’re in the wrong and they’re a terrible parent. You know, you can’t, so the best thing you can do is write it out. Get the anger out, the fear, the sadness out. You know, this hurts. This hurts. And no good parent intentionally hurts their child. I could swear right now. I’d be swearing up a blue streak because those type of people really piss me write that bleep off. So write it out, burn it, let it go. And it’s not going to be a one-and-done. It’s probably going to be several letters because since you’ve been the golden child, blinders have come off. What’s been seen cannot be unseen. And now you’re recognizing. Okay, well, there’s a lot. So write it out. Write it out, burn it, write it out, burn it, write it out, burn it. Get with a good therapist. A good trauma therapist. Absolutely. Okay, let’s see. Um, okay, he ignores me. Okay.

Can you explain nature nurture? Okay. So the eternal question, are psychological issues purely nature, or are they purely the way we’re raised? The eternal question. So John Nixon and I would have debates. He was my mentor when I was in college, and nature nurture. And honestly, I think it’s a combination. I think some people have got a genetic predisposition to have some psychiatric issues. I mean, obviously, the ones that are clearly neurological, so like, for example, Schizophrenia is a mutation of the 23rd genome. That’s not nurture. That’s nature. That’s the 23rd genome getting triggered by a retrovirus that’s causing the schizophrenia the hearing the voices, that not being able to process electromagnetic fields, etc, etc, etc. So that’s a physical issue. Bipolar is a physical issue.

55:00
The brain is unable to produce the right amounts of feel-good chemicals and to reabsorb them in the right amount. So it’s like when the manic phase is hitting. Boy, those senders are sending all the dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, etc, etc, etc, into the brain right, and the other receivers are not pulling them back into the body fast enough. That’s what’s causing the manic. Then when the person goes in the opposite direction, the receipt the senders or I’m sorry, the receivers are sucking everything out. And the senders are not able to produce enough of the feel-good chemicals; the person goes into a deep depression. So that’s physical, that’s has nothing to do with being the way you raised with personality disorders. Is there a predisposition? I think, yes, I think there is a genetic component, you know, but I also think that nurture has a lot to do with it, just like think about this the topic last week, which was attachments. So if you have a healthy attachment, you know, parent leaves, parent comes back, parent is consistent. There’s always, you know, the security there. And same thing with Moana, I have to keep showing her, it’s like, Baby, I’m coming right back. I’m running to the store, I’m coming right back, you know, it’s like you’re safe, it’s okay. And as I do more of that with her, she gets more and more confident. So it’s the same thing with a baby, you know, it’s like you got to show consistency that creates a secure attachment. The parent is absent drug addict, abusive, etc. It’s an insecure attachment because it’s not consistent. So nature sets us up. Nurture either pushes us over the cliff or pulls us back from it. That’s the way to look at so. Yeah, I think there’s a component of both in mental health issues. Absolutely. All right, my love’s, that is it for today. So be gentle with yourselves. And
I hope this was helpful. And have a great Christmas and New Year, and I will see you that first week in January. All right, I will talk to you guys later. Bye.

57:15
Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.
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Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, so today’s current event that, we have to talk about the attack on Paul Pelosi, and I would be talking about this, whether this was a Republican that was the spouse that had been attacked or whether it was a Democrat spouse that had been attacked, this is unacceptable! And here are the two pink elephants taking dumps in the corner of the nation’s living room. One: mental health in this country sucks! It does! It always has. It’s never been good. We have never truly addressed mental health issues and especially severely mentally ill health issues.

The way in the past that it was dealt with, dealt with in bunny ears, was that they were warehoused. And they were put into these horrible institutions like the Pennhurst or Trans Allegheny or, you know, and they were just warehoused and not dealt with, not helped, not, you know, given tools, not you know, or the proper medication. Or and, or they would just do these horrible experiments like lobotomies on them, and it never got dealt with. So that’s, that’s pink elephant number one. It’s like, why are we just kind of going “No, no, no, we’re not going to talk about that. We’ll talk about the weapons.” Okay, this guy used a hammer. Let me be clear, if you’re crazy, if you’re delusional, if you’re hearing voices, if you’ve got command hallucinations, and I’m not saying he did, but if you’re crazy, and you think it’s a good idea to go attack an 82-year-old man with a hammer, there’s an issue there.

And Issue number two, pink elephant number two in the living room? Is that this kid, kid, anybody younger than me as a kid anyway, the point being is, is that this guy had been posting online, all of these threats, all of these intentions, all of these, and either people didn’t take it seriously, because they didn’t know what to look for, or they didn’t understand the seriousness of the threats, you know, or they just didn’t recognize, you know, hey, this is kind of like a first warning sign here. We should probably do a welfare check and see what’s going on. Do you see where I’m going? That we’re not trained. We’re not honest to God, so. Okay. And here’s the other thing.

03:28

Okay, sorry. I’ll address that one later. Because I was about to go on a different rant, but I’m not going to. So, the mental health in this country has got to be addressed. Absolutely. You cannot just sweep it under the carpet and go “Oh, it’s going to get better.” No, it’s going to get lumpier and it’s going to get nastier and it’s going to be harder to clean. Okay, that’s what happens when you sweep things under the carpet. So that mental health issue is one of the pink elephants that we just we don’t do good mental health in this country. And we should because there are a lot of mentally ill people out there. I worked in the homeless shelter, and almost all of them were mentally ill. And I know people love to do that whole Oh, you know, they’re just taking advantage of the services and… Okay, you try having a demon screaming in one ear and God screaming in the other and somebody giving you a job interview in front of you and see how well you do!

Okay. So mental health needs to be addressed. Contact your local representatives, this needs to be handled at a local level. We need to get the city governments involved, we need to get the county governments involved, we need to get the state governments involved, we need to get the federal government involved. This needs to be handled I’m sounding the alarm. And I get to say I told you so if it gets worse because I’ve been telling you so for how long? Okay, there’s a problem needs to be handled.

Pink Elephant number two. This guy was influenced by social media said it throughout his ramblings online. You cannot stand in a theater and scream fire because people will stampede out and get killed. There is a reason why it is illegal, there is a reason why people will get arrested for doing that because people have been harmed and people have been killed. The people who are doing social media and I talked about this, I think it was last week when we talked about the idiot TikTok challenges that are dangerous. This is no different. Inciting someone to violence is the same thing. As standing in a crowded theater and screaming fire. They need to be held fiscally, legally and morally accountable. This is not okay. And again, we need to get our government officials involved in getting that handled because this is not okay.

When somebody is mentally ill, and if they’ve got command hallucinations, and if they’ve got any sort of severe mental illness that is unmedicated, they’ve got voices going. They are going to act on what they hear on a daily basis. It happened at the homeless shelter. It’s happening in other cities around the world, basically. So, accountability. Words are powerful. That’s why I try to be so careful what I say here so that I am helping as many people as possible and not hurting anyone. Those people that incite violence that incite conspiracy theories that incite division and dirision and negativity, and nastiness, they are probably disordered. And they are probably narcissistic because that’s what narcissists do. They stir things up, and then they sit back and go, Oh, goody, look at what I made happen. Look at all these terrible things happening in the family. Look at all the terrible things happening out in the public. Look at how powerful I am. That’s what they do, guys. That’s what they do. This needs to be addressed. Absolutely. It needs to be addressed. They need to be held accountable.

And here’s a little caveat onto the end of that. Here’s how I know that people can get along. We’ve gotten along for a long time. Until social media. Number one, I know I sound like one of those old ladies. Well, I am one of those old ladies. Because we got along really well before social media, social media happens, and the trolls took over, and oh my god, and they’re just enjoying the division and the derision and the nastiness. Here’s the other reason I know this is possible for us to all get along is that healthy people can accept differing opinions. We may not agree with them. Absolutely. But we certainly don’t take a hammer to them for not having the same opinion. Okay? I just got back from a Halloween party last night. Over at Hanson’s house. Oh my God, it was so much fun. Everybody was like, What are you? I’m like, I’m a therapist. So I just dressed normally.

07:48

Some people got the joke, some people didn’t. But, um, anyway, the point being is, is that Hanson is a libertarian, I am liberal. His friends are mostly Republican. Guess what? Not only do we get along, we actually like each other. And we actually like having social normal discourse and understanding where the other one is coming from! May not agree with them, but it’s like, it helps to talk, and it helps to understand and helps to get the other opinions and it helps to…

Because we’re adults, and we aren’t splitting, we aren’t like black, white, good, bad or nothing. And that’s what these people are doing. And they are playing off of that. So, it needs to be addressed. It does. They’re the two the two pink elephants in the nation’s living room. One is the lack of mental health care and training. Nobody caught that. If I had read that stuff, I would have been like, oh, Houston, we got a problem Where’s you know, going? Who can we send out? And that’s the other thing. It’s like, generally, they won’t do anything unless it’s danger to self or danger to others.

And I think that was a danger to others that was just completely missed. So okay, so we’ve got that the mental health issue needs to be addressed on all levels. It cannot just be a state or federal, it’s got to be local. It’s got to be local, as well. The second issue is the people that are standing in a crowded theater, i.e. the internet and screaming fire and inciting people, especially mentally ill people, to violence. They’ve got to be held accountable. So here endth the rant, I just thought I’d bring that up.

Okay, now let’s talk about Thanksgiving. And or Christmas and or New Year’s and or all the holidays coming up. So basically, we’ve got a lot of holidays coming up in the next few months. Peacekeeping. Let’s talk about peacekeeping. So, peacekeeping, being the Peacekeeper in the family, being the clown in the family, being somebody who smooths over the issues in the family is a trauma response. I know, I know, it’s like their last four weeks, I’ve been talking about nothing but trauma responses. And that’s what we’re dealing with.

So, when we are in a family of origin, and they are disordered, splitting, black-white thinking, lots of anger, lots of chaos, lots of drama. Kids start falling into roles. And one of the roles is a peacekeeper, and that’s a tough role for a kid because it’s not their job. So, here’s this poor little kid, you know, young, 810 years old, either trying to be the comedian to make people laugh and not yell at each other or literally being the intermediary, splitting people apart, you know, distracting doing whatever they need to make the family get along. So here’s what happens, abusive people hate holidays, hate them, they say they love them, but they don’t. Because what they do is they set about to ruin every single holiday out there, they just do. And the way they ruin it is either by creating anger, chaos, drama, you know, whatever. Or they suddenly, you know, if they’re, if they’re the covert narcissist, they’ll suddenly have some sort of health issue in the middle of dinner. And it’s really nothing. You know, so they set about to harm people, they set about to blow it up, they set about to create as much drama as possible. And if we were growing up in this family, then we were trained to make everything smooth. We were trained to make it better. We were trained to be the diplomat, be the ambassador be the whatever. That is so not fair to kids, that is so not fair to kids. So not fair. Because little kids can’t handle that. And they’re forcing, they’re forcing the kid to take sides, basically. And then making it mad at the peacekeeper, that’s trying to keep everything smooth, and everything calm, and everything good. Instead of really dealing with the abuser that has caused the drama, the upset the whatever. So peacekeeping is a form of people-pleasing.

And it’s funny because when I’m working with my clients, they’ll read like, the disease to please. And they may or may not recognize their role, right? So they’re like, well, but I never really, you know, did things for other people expecting to get anything back? Okay, well, but did you do other things that were, you know, trying to keep the peace or trying to, you know, make somebody else happy or trying to whatever. So the people that…the people that do that, this goes forward in their life, okay. And they find themselves constantly trying to keep the peace, constantly being the comedian, constantly distracted, constantly doing whatever, in order to try to keep the calm, okay, so that is a people-pleasing mood, it’s not just about, oh, I’m doing something for somebody, so that they’ll give something back to me, it’s like if you’re doing this in order to influence the family dynamics, that is still people pleasing. I know. Mind blown. So, these kids that are forced into this now I was the comedian, in my family, I was I was either the scapegoat, or the comedian, or sometimes the funny scapegoat because I would do that too.

13:54

But kids are forced into these roles. And so as the comedian, my job was to keep it light. My job was to make people laugh. My job was to find the humor in this really awful situation, you know, and I kind of carry that through, I use humor a lot. I really do. You know, it becomes a problem, though, if you’re using humor to avoid the emotions you’re feeling. And oftentimes, comedians, that’s what they do. And that’s, you know, they grow up and they use the humor to keep people at arm’s length and to keep that vulnerability away from that’s a problem when we grow up and we continue doing that role even though we don’t need to do it anymore. So, looking at the roles of Peacekeeper and comedian and scapegoat and golden child and, you know, in really dysfunctional families, second spouse, you know, etc., etc., etc. Second, mom, second dad is really important because that’s going to tell us what our knee-jerk reaction is to situations that bring up flashbacks. I know.

So, there were a couple of really great articles on psychology today. So, let’s see if I can find this. Okay, this one is called playing out our childhood role. And I’m bringing up the whole Peacekeeper thing. Sorry, we’ll get to the article in a moment. I’m bringing up the whole Peacekeeper thing because as we’re coming into the holidays, we’re having to deal with family or not. I mean, honestly, if your family is toxic, I absolve you. You don’t have to spend time with them. You don’t serious hand to heart, you don’t have to spend time with toxic family, you don’t you have the right to go do your own damn holiday or no holiday at all. I mean, if you just wanted to shut your doors and pretend you’re not home do that, you are under no obligation to spend time with these people. So the scary thing of it is, is that when the holidays come up, we get this nostalgia, and the inner child is running the show. And we feel like we have to, or we’re obligated. So please remember fog, fear, obligation guilt. If somebody’s guilt tripping you into spending the holidays with them, do not spend the holidays with them. Don’t if you feel obligated, do not spend the holidays with them. If you’re fearful, do not spend the holidays with them. A lot of times what I hear people say is Oh my gosh, I have to I got to protect my sister, or I have to protect my brother, or I have to protect my mom or I have to… no, it is not your job. It is not your job. And I think that is what is so damaging to us as survivors as we get stuck in these roles of protector or Peacekeeper or comedian or, you know, golden child, scapegoat or you know, whatever. And we think we have to keep doing that role forever and ever. Amen. And we do not. So, if you’re looking at the holidays, because and this is why I wanted to talk about this now because it’s only, you know, it’s right before Halloween. So if you’re looking at the holidays, and you’re like, Oh, I do not want to go spend Thanksgiving with the in-laws, or with my parents or you know, whatever family, you don’t have to, you don’t have to and you do not owe anybody an explanation. Well, but why? Well, we have other plans. But what plans do you have, big ones. And you just leave it at that. Thank you for asking.

17:29

Crickets, and you don’t have to say anything else. And I think again, this goes back to oversharing. So we have a tendency to overshare when we’re saying no to an abuser, because we’re afraid because the inner child is afraid because we know how they’re going to freak out. They will try to punish. But here’s the deal. You’re an adult, they really truly cannot do anything to you. I mean, they can yell, they can scream, they can cry, they can play the victim, they can tell everybody what a horrible child you are. Oh well. Sticks and stones, mofo, sticks and stones, you know what I’m saying? So yeah, you just you don’t have to go spend the holidays with them, go do your own thing. But if you do decide to spend the holidays with them, be aware of how we slipped back into those roles really quickly. Like really quickly. Like when I would go home to visit, it would take maybe less than a week, probably three days, for me to be like oh my god, I’m seven years old again. What the hell? You know, and that’s just a notice. It’s just kind of like, Uh huh, isn’t that interesting? I feel like I’m seven. And my mom’s treating me like I’m seven. Hmm, interesting, you know, that kind of thing. So, you know, it’s just a notice kind of thing. And then note to self. I don’t need to do this. I don’t need to keep coming back here. I don’t know what I’m looking for. Well, I do know, the inner child is looking for the family that we always wanted. They’re not there guys there.

There’s no they’re there. If they were abusive, if they’re toxic, if they’re drama, Queens, drama kings, etc. There is no there there you’re never going to find the family you wanted with your family of origin if they are disordered and toxic. So, there is that? Okay, um, so, alright.

Okay, so, in this article, what I wanted to bring up is playing out the family roles. Okay, the peacekeeper’s job is to keep the peace by being an intermediate mediary go-between and mediator to pacify those who are irritable or angry in the family. So, I think I’ve talked about this before being a peacekeeper can be really dangerous physically. So, in my in-law’s family, there was a member of the family that was a raging and I do mean raging, alcoholic. And every time we got together, he would go around the room and he would start insulting people and he was looking for somebody to burst into tears, come unglued, argue with him, fight with him. etc., etc. And it never happened. It never happened because we all just kind of were like, Oh God, here he goes, you know. And eventually, the brothers would have to get together and carry him out because he was so falling down drunk. And it was dangerous because this guy weighed like, you know, 350 or so he was a very large man, and not a very nice man, and a violent drunk. And, you know, there’s always that possibility that you could take a swing at you, you know? So it’s dangerous. Being the Peacekeeper, physically. It’s also dangerous being the Peacekeeper emotionally because if the family decides that they really do want a knock down, drag out, and you’re trying to smooth things over, they’re going to blame you. You’re the problem. Now you’ve become the scapegoat.

Okay, so the roles are interchangeable. The peacekeeper role is interchangeable. It’ll keep being a peacekeeper will either make you the golden child, if you make everything good enough. Never because they’ll find something wrong with it, or it’ll turn you into the scapegoat or whatever. So you’ve got to be really, really aware of not slipping into that role. And if somebody comes to you and goes, do something, okay, leave not your job. Not your job being the Peacekeeper is not your job, it is not. So okay, let’s go through this, okay.

The Parental child is a miniature adult. I think we’ve talked about this where the kids have become parentified. And this is also a part of peacekeeping because they’re asking a child to make adults behave. I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed this or not, but you cannot make somebody behave if they don’t want to if they’re bent on hell-bent on misbehavior, and or if they’ve got drugs or alcohol on board, there’s no way you can make them behave! Absolutely not because they’re in an altered state of mind, whether they’re mentally ill or whether they are on drugs and alcohol. So, you know, again, it puts the kid in a really bad situation. And it’s not fair of the adults to make the child be the adult. It’s not the kid’s job. It’s the adult’s job. But I cannot tell you the number of times I have seen adults throw the kid under the bus in order to save themselves. So, you know, well, you go take care of this, you go talk to them, you go do this, you go, you know, instead of hey, relative that’s a drunk jerk, you’re banished by get them out of here, call the police do whatever, you know, do you see where I’m going with that? So, it puts the kid in a very dangerous emotionally situation and it puts the kid in a very dangerous physical situation. Okay, so there’s the miniaturized child.

22:44

The marital child is the second spouse. So that has to do with incest, the Helper, the assistant, and they’re always helping, and they’re always intervening. And that kind of goes along with the Peacekeeper, the dependent child is an extended and exaggerated childlike position. So, they become infantilized. So, there’s that the abandoned or invisible child is usually the middle child, not always the unwanted child. That kind of goes along with the scapegoat. The criticized child, this is the scapegoat can’t do anything wrong or can’t do anything, right. They’re always wrong. The betrayed child may have confidential confidentiality violated when they’ve confided something personal in the parent. So, the parent will pump them for information, and then at the Thanksgiving or Christmas, blurt it all out and the parent gets off on that if they are an abuser. The clown’s job is to keep things smooth, and funny, and light. The hero makes good grades. So that would be like the golden child. And the rebel is the rule breaker, which can also be the scapegoat. So, there is that.

Now the second one I got was, Are you a relationship peace keeper. Okay, now this is how it plays out in romantic relationships. And this is where it gets dangerous, really dangerous. I mean, it was dangerous before. But if you’re in an abusive relationship with a narcissist with somebody who is mentally, emotionally physically abusive, manipulative, etc., etc., etc. The Peacekeeper will automatically assume that everything in the relationship that’s wrong is their fault. Because the family of origin has trained them that it’s their fault. And so, they will bend over backwards, they will turn themselves into pretzels trying to make this unpleasable person pleased. And this is where it gets dangerous because peacekeepers are the ones who lose themselves more than anybody else. So, scapegoats can lose themselves. Absolutely. But if they’re the rebel scapegoats, they have tendency to, like, call the BS out for the BS that they see it. Does that make sense? So, the peacekeepers that are like I want peace at all costs , I’ll just lose myself, I’ll just Shush, I’ll just not say anything, I’ll just, you know, go away, I’ll be quiet, I won’t, you know, whatever. So that is that leads to losing yourself.

So, your world gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller as you try to twist yourself into something that’s going to keep the peace between you and this monster that does not want peace. Does that make sense? So, it’s dangerous, because that’s when we lose ourselves, we literally become a ghost of who we were, we really do we do, and we no longer recognize ourselves. Because we’ve given up so much, we’ve, we’ve continued to give up ground, you know, to try to please this person. And that’s dangerous. That’s, those are the clients that come in and start talking to me, that literally sit there and go, I don’t know who I am. I used to be, you know, confident and strong. And this, that and the other thing, and then it’s like, you know, they’re like, I don’t know who I am. I couldn’t even tell you what I like to eat. You know, I’m because this person would make them wrong. For everything. The criticism is insane. And, of course, this person is trying to smooth things over and make things good again and returned to the love bombing, which will never happen because they’re cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. These guys over here, the abusers. So peacekeeping is it’s seen as noble or a good thing in the family of origin. But it comes back and bites us in the ass when we are in an abusive relationship. And it’s important to recognize what was your role? What was your role in the family? Were you the peacekeeper? Were you the one that was trying to make all these impossible people behave?

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And we get that not good enough, not good enough, not good enough thing when we can’t make them behave. I know! It’s a no-win situation. So, you’re told you’re the Peacekeeper you’re being demanded to go into the situation and fix it. Right? Fixing people pleasing, hello, can’t fix it, can’t make them behave, therefore you’re not good enough, and guess what your internal critic is going to do. And it’s the same thing when we get involved with an abuser. So, you’re not the UN.

Frankly, the UN doesn’t do a great job in peacekeeping either. So, the point being is, if you see that your role is the Peacekeeper or the clown, or any other role. Take a look at that. Start investigating. What were your childhood roles? If you were the Peacekeeper, how much of you did you give up? How much of you did you lose? You know, what do you Who were you before you got involved with the abuser that’s where you want to get back to if you had confidence before the abuser, that’s what you want to start working on. And that’s why it’s important to work on the codependency because the codependency is connected to the childhood roles, right? Because we’re doing things to try to make things smooth and make other people happy, etc., etc., etc. And the self-esteem. Everything’s connected to self-esteem. It’s all connected. We are all one. It is true. We are all one and it is all connected. And really the key to this is getting rid of the codependency, getting rid of the roles that we played, especially the Peacekeeper one, I think, in a super dysfunctional family. The worst one is the second spouse because the second husband, second wife, because there’s so much going on. Also, emotional incest going on. The next worst one could be either the scapegoat or the Peacekeeper because the scapegoat is never right. Can’t do anything, right, everything’s wrong. And then the Peacekeeper is put into this position of if you don’t fix it, you’re a bad person.

This is all no-win situations, guys. All of these roles are no-win situations. The only person that’s winning in this is the frickin Narcissus. So, the best way to win is to not play. So, if you recognize yourself in any of these childhood roles because remember, abusers can’t hang with, what’s the word I’m looking for? They can’t hang with who the kid is, right? So, they had to put us in these boxes that they can label. So, like mine was, I was the cute stupid one. So, you know, and my sister was, you know, the oldest one was the golden child. And the next one was, you know, the brilliant one, and you know all of this. So, they can’t handle who a person is because a person is multifaceted, right? They have all sorts of different facets to them. And a narcissist can deal with that because they don’t have those facets. They can’t understand emotions, they can’t feel emotions, they can’t love, they can’t, you know, and so they put kids into these neat little boxes that they can easily manipulate and easily use and easily harm and everything else.

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So, you want to take a look at what box did they put you in? What role did you play in your family? And can you start working on that with a therapist and if you can’t get a therapist get The Inner Child Workbook, Lucia Cappacchione or Catherine Taylor. Okay, I just said that Hello.

The Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn Schiraldi The Disease to Please by Harriet Brakier. Any other book on codependency would be really good. CPTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, and start working on breaking up those boxes, breaking them down. They’re not yours, get rid of them that this, this is not who you are. This is who you are, you are way bigger than whatever your abuser has told you, you were. So, take a look at the childhood roles. Take a look at the peacekeeping and notice how much you try to do it in your everyday life. As we’re coming up on Thanksgiving and Christmas. You don’t have to be the Peacekeeper, and if somebody asks you to say, no! No, that is your word. No is, no is your word from here on out. No is a powerful word. You don’t have to just because they tell you to. And I think a lot of us get into that trap of Oh, well. But mom wants me to go in there and make aunt Bertha and Aunt Martha get along. No, not your job, make mom do it. You know, not my job, Mom, you want to get along you talk to him. She’s not going to like it. But oh, well, you can always leave. You don’t have to stay if you get into a situation where the family is just behaving like a bunch of feral, rabid ferrets leave, you don’t have to stay you don’t!! You’re under no obligation, fear, obligation, guilt. So, you cannot force people to don’t want to behave, to behave. And take a look at how that peacekeeping plays out in your everyday life. What is your role at work? So usually when we get into work situations, and I will get to the questions, I know I’m going over.

When we get into a work situation, we tend to take those childhood roles into a group situation with us and we find ourselves repeating the behavior in a different situation. So, if you’re at work, and you find that you’re the Peacekeeper, you need to stop, not your job. There is not enough money in the world to pay you for that. Do you see where I’m going with that?

So anyway, that is, you’re not the UN, it is not your job. Look at the childhood roles that you’ve been forced into, take a look at the family of origin, if they are toxic, and you don’t enjoy being with them and you’re dreading going to Thanksgiving, or you’re dreading going to Christmas, don’t go do your own thing. Or if you go, and they start trying to force you into those family roles again, say no and mean it No. And I mean it, and you either stop, or I’m leaving.

There you go. And then, if they don’t stop, you leave. So, follow-through is really important.

Anyway, there’s that it’s stupid what they do to us, it’s stupid what they do to us as kids because it then affects us as adults and either affects us in a romantic relationship, where we just keep giving and giving and giving and giving and trying to fix, trying to fix trying to fix, trying to fix, trying to fix, it, eventually, in some cases kills us, or it emotionally kills us or it, you know, exhausts us or whatever, or we get into a situation where we can’t fix it and we somehow think it’s us as opposed to them.

So, there it is, you’re not the UN. You don’t have to be the Peacekeeper, it’s a terrible job, resign the benefits suck. You don’t need to do it. Okay, so and take a look at the family roles. That would be my suggestion. Take a look at what your family role is. And how does that play out in your everyday life? Start working on that you don’t have to do that that is not who you are. That is not who you are who they told you were not who you are. And that’s what I invite you to discover is who are you know really what is your role in this world? What do you want to be doing? You know and that’s the fun part is when you finally start recognizing your worth Glenn Schiraldi self-esteem workbook, your boundaries the disease to please Harriet breaker, you know, and the fact that this stuff all belongs to the abuser  CPTSD from surviving to thriving Pete Walker, you know, and you’re free. That’s, that’s where I want you to get so okay, there that is Oh, so this this article was you the relationship peacekeeper? How to tell if you have true emotional intimacy, and this is by Ann Smith, and that’s on psychology today. And it has all the different childhood roles which are Wait, is this the one with all the childhood roles? No, the other one was the one with the childhood roles. So anyway, it’s a good article, but both of them are good articles. So okay, let’s dive into the questions, shall we?

Okay, let me make this bigger so I can actually see it. There we go. Um, I’ve started grieving my narcissistic mom who’s still alive. Oh, I’m sorry. Yes. I feel so guilty about it. Does it ever get easier? Yeah, it does. The hardest grief you will ever do is grieving the loss of somebody who is still walking the face of this planet. I know, it’s…. So, when we are dealing with really separating ourselves from an abuser, especially a parental abuser. It’s hard because the inner child desperately wants that person to love us and protect us and apologize and this that the other thing, and it’s never going to happen. So, you want to work on the inner child workbook, you want to self-esteem, you want to get with a good therapist and start working through this stuff. Does it get easier? Yes, it does. No contact. And let me be clear because I’ve had some people try to argue with me on this. And I’m just like, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Please be quiet and sit down. No Contact is no contact, it means you’re done. It means you’re not talking to them ever. It’s not used to make them see the error of their ways. A narcissist and abuser is never not on this or any other planet Earth. Going to see the error of their ways ever. They will never they have never done a wrong thing in their lives as far as they are concerned. My dad’s favorite saying was I’m not lost. I’m only temporarily confused or I’m not wrong. I’m only temporarily confused. He could never admit to being wrong. He could never admit to being lost in the car, which is why we were lost out in the woods in the middle of a creek one time don’t get me started. So anyway, the point being, is that yes, it does get easier, but initially, when you go, no contact.

It is incredibly painful. The oxytocins are going nuts, especially if it was a romantic relationship. In this case, it was a parental relationship. So, there’s all that fear, obligation, and guilt, that is what you need to work on the fog. And anytime those thoughts pop up, oh, you need to be obligated you owe her or, you know, how dare you she’s going to punish you or you feel so guilty? How dare you? How dare you not talk to your mom? Okay, I hear you, I see you. And here’s every rotten thing this woman ever did to me, I have gone no contact, I am going to stay no contact. Buh Bye. Buh bye now buh bye, go pound sand. But you just got to keep working through that guilt and that fear and that obligation. And like I said, grieving the loss of somebody who is still walking the planet is really hard. So, what I suggest is you treat it as if she were dead. Nope. mom’s dead.

38:06

Ex-Boyfriend dead. Ex friend dead. I will grieve this loss; I am grieving the loss of the illusion of who I thought they were. I cannot change them, I cannot fix them, I cannot help them. It is beyond my means. It would literally take a biblical proportion kind of thing for them to change. So that’s one way to do it, as you grieve it like a physical loss. Like they’re dead, they’re gone. You know, because that person, if they’re a narcissist, if their abuser if they’re toxic, they’re not, they’re never going to be the person you want them to be. Essentially, that person is dead to you. So that’s one way to help you kind of start working through that. Write and burn letters! Write a goodbye letter. Dear Mom, the good may or may not have been any, you know, I can think of a very few things that are good about my dad. He gave me a love of history, you know, okay, here’s the good dad gave me a love of history. That’s great. You know, you did you know make us tour of the United States every summer. That’s also great. Here’s the bad and then it was like, you know, an entire book worth, you know, so you do the good, the bad, the ugly, the horrific, the unforgivable. And at the very, very end, you take your power back. You may have given birth to me, mom, but guess what, I’m going to reraise myself. I’m going to love myself the way I should have been loved. I’m going to validate myself the way I should have been validated. I’m going to be kind to myself the way I should have been kind to. And you do not get to live rent free in my head. One more moment. Goodbye, go pound sand. You’re dead to me. You are dead to me. How dare you treat me the way you did. I’m taking my power back. You don’t get to live in my head. I’m evicting you. Goodbye. Trot it out to the barbecue. Read it now. By once, burn it, or if you want the sensation of having mailed it, mail it back to yourself, do not send it. Do not send it nothing good ever comes out of that. So, yeah, it does get easier over time. Don’t feel guilty, I know you’re going to and that’s okay. Um

So minimizing so how do I break the I’m so mean, I’m a terrible daughter, she wasn’t that abusive. So, here’s the deal.

She was abusive, if you felt she was abusive, she was abusive. There is no, it’s kind of it’s like being sort of pregnant, she was only sort of abusive, no, she was abusive. That’s how you stop that thought. It’s like, Ah, no, she was abusive, let’s, let’s just call it for what it was. That’s why I want you to write it out. So, you can see it. So, you can be like, Whoa, okay, there it is, you know, the guilt is going to pop up. And again, we have this whole societal thing. And this is what Oh, lord. This is what makes me so angry is when people find out that somebody has gone no contact with an abusive parent, they immediately whip out the Honor thy mother and father, and the very next line is parents do not bring your children to anger. It’s a two-way street, even in the Bible. So, and they’re flying monkeys, if they’re telling you are demanding that you be in a relationship with a parent, that’s abusive, they’re a flying monkey, they’re showing you who they are. They’re aligning themselves with the aggressor. Give them the middle finger, and tell them goodbye. Bye. Bye now, buh bye. And you cut them off too? So yeah, there’s that like a little angry about people to do that. Because, you know, try to make people feel guilty for going no contact with an abusive parent. So, don’t minimize, we have a tendency to minimize we do. Because that’s a that’s a defense thing. It’s kind of like well it wasn’t that bad. Well, other families… No, this is not a competition. This is not about other families. It’s about what you went through. So don’t minimize it. Do not! Get with a good therapist work on that. Okay.

41:57

I’m an adult. My mom hates my dad and uses me as her therapist. Oh, my God. Okay. My mom did the same thing. I’m so sorry. I am so sorry. I went through the same thing. How to screw up your kid and two easy steps. Make them your therapist. Yeah. Um, one easy step. So, what you’re going to have to do is draw boundaries, your mom is not going to like that. My mom did not like that. And she tried to guilt trip me. I don’t know how old you are. But if you’re an adult, you’re just going to have to tell her No, Mom, I don’t want to hear this. You need a therapist to talk to, not me, I can’t handle it. Not my job.

Now she’s going to see that as a betrayal if she’s disordered, if she’s disordered, she’s going to see it as a betrayal. She’s going to see it as that you’re not on her side, etc., etc., etc. And you have to be very clear. It’s like I am not taking sides on this. This is between you and Dad; you need a therapist. I can’t handle this.

Now, if you’re a minor, living at home, and they’re using you as a therapist, as my mom did with me, I was a minor when she did this. I did start standing up to her and saying I can’t deal with this. I can’t I mean, I was freaking suicidal when I was a teenager because my parents were crazy. So, you know what I’m saying? So, you just keep saying no, and you just know not listening. Thank you very much, and not my problem. Go get a therapist do you see where I’m going with that. So, you’re just going to have to keep saying no and drawing boundaries, whether you’re an adult or whether your kids just keep saying no and drawing boundaries, no and drawing boundaries. I can’t hear this. Talk to some therapist. I’m not listening to this. You know, and if she gets butthurt and tries to take it off, or well, you’re siding with your dad, this has nothing to do with dad. I can’t handle this. This is damaging me stop. So that’s how I would help a lot. That’s how I did handle out and demand that she go see a therapist and don’t listen to her. Just keep saying no.

Okay. My family wants me to stop therapy because I’ve gone low to no contact with them. Good for you. And they’re telling me that my getting healthy is tearing the family apart. Holy. Oh, jump back. Okay. You’re getting healthy is tearing the family apart? Because it can anybody hear the irony of that? So, what happens in dysfunctional families is when the scapegoat or whoever starts getting healthy. Yes, that dysfunctional family starts scrambling to find another scapegoat and they start turning on each other and it gets ugly. Not your problem. Don’t you dare stop therapy. You just keep going. You get yourself super healthy and whatever happens to them is their problem. It’s their problem. It is not your problem. It is their problem. So, the number of times I’ve had clients that were still heavily connected to the abusive families come in and go, huh? My family wants me to stop there because they say it’s because, well, now they’re all fighting against each other and blah, blah, blah, okay, good. Let them stop having contact with them. You know, you just you just don’t you, you just keep working on you. You just keep getting healthy. That’s beautiful.

So yeah, this is what dysfunctional families do if somebody is getting healthy and drawing boundaries, oh, yeah, the dysfunctional families do not like it, no to low contact, low to no contact is great. No Contact is perfect. So yeah, they won’t like it. Because they’re losing control. They’re losing control. And now they have to find another scapegoat. And now they have to find other forms of entertainment scape goats are the greatest entertainment to these people. peacekeepers are the greatest entertainment to these people because they can throw all their stuff onto them, they can project all their stuff onto and if you’re gone, they have to find somebody else. And, of course, it’s going to cause, you know, a lot of turmoil in the dysfunctional family. Good. You don’t need to deal with it, not your problem. Now, what I’ve seen abusive families do is then use the kids, the other the siblings, and be like, you know, taking it out on one of the younger siblings, and then that older sibling who stepped away and has gotten healthy, then goes, Oh, my God, I need to go back to protect them.

46:16

You can’t hon, again. You’re stepping in to try to save a sibling. And you can’t as long as that sibling is a minor, there is nothing you can do and what they will do is they will then go back to either abusing you, or both of you. So, the best thing you can do to help that sibling is to get the hell away, report appropriately if needed to CPS, DPS, you know, Child Protective Services Department and Children’s Services. They keep changing their names, put lipstick on a pig, it’s still the same thing. You know what I’m saying? I mean, it’s like so report appropriately. And that’s the best way to help them so that when that sibling can leave, you’ve got yourself established that maybe then you can help them. Does that make sense? That’s kind of what my older sister did for me. Okay, hold on. Let’s go to the next question.

Okay, yeah, keep going to therapy, keep going to therapy.

I’ve had trouble with multiple therapists, where they don’t believe that I still don’t understand basic things about being an independent person. Any suggestions? Finding a good therapist? Well, did they ever ask you about your family of origin? Did they ever talk to you about that stuff? So, you know, not understanding basic things. Abusive families don’t teach their kids anything like seriously, like the number of children, adult children now raised by narcissists or neglectful or harmful or hurtful or toxic families that don’t know basic things like dental health care, like not knowing how to brush their teeth, not knowing how to bathe, like, seriously, like, I’m not kidding you. Because what abusers do is they will literally let the kid raise themselves, which I’m just like, Why did you have children? Well, they had children to connect themselves to a supply for 18 years. That’s why they had children. So, they will throw the kid to the wild under the bus and basically let them raise themselves. And so, the kid doesn’t understand dental hygiene. They don’t brush their teeth twice a day and their teeth, are falling out of their head. Because they don’t do good dental hygiene. They don’t brush their teeth. They don’t floss. They don’t know how to bathe. They don’t yeah, yes. Yes, that because the narcissistic parent basically expects the kid to raise themselves, they basically expect the kid to figure it all out on their own. The kid needs to be taught that that’s what being a parent is, is you are a teacher. Hello. You’re teaching the child how to in this world, you’re handing them tools, and abusive parents don’t do that. So, if that is your situation, you need to get with a good therapist that understands trauma, understands narcissistic abuse, and understands that narcissistic parents if there’s two narcissists, together which can happen. Or if there’s two disordered people together, they will throw the kid in the room and expect them to raise themselves and not give them tools like dental hygiene, washing themselves, how to balance a bank account, how to you know how to do a job interview, how to write a resume, how to drive a car. Oh, Lord, that’s one of the big ones. Oh, I don’t want my son or daughter driving. No, no, I don’t want driving so they don’t ever let them drive. Why? Because then they can’t get in the car and drive the hell away from them. That’s why so yeah, it’s really it’s really important to get with somebody who understands Yeah, these people have hobbled a lot of their kids in a lot of different ways, some more severely than others. So

50:00

For me, personally, I always the hygiene I had down. But the social stuff, I didn’t always have down, you know, because they were crazy. And they didn’t know how to socialize, and they didn’t know how to behave, and they didn’t know how to, you know, fill in the blanks. So, um, so yeah, so you want to get with somebody who is a good trauma therapist that understands narcissistic abuse and understands the ways that these bio parents because they’re not parents, they’re not teaching us anything. Hobble they’re kids. And like I said, that can be anything from hygiene to driving to social to balancing a bank account, to whatever so yeah, and you just, you know, find somebody who’s a good trauma therapist, a good trauma therapist should understand that. Okay.

All right. Let’s see, um, doo doo doo doo. doo. And you just want to ask them a bunch of questions. You just want to you know; do you understand trauma? Do you understand narcissistic abuse? Do you understand? And if they don’t, don’t go to what you want to find a trauma therapist that gets it.

Okay, in a semi-grieving process with my dog right now, since he’s been diagnosed with cancer, Oh, honey, I’m sorry. Oh, difficulty imagining life without him until it happens. Going back and forth between a form of acceptance and denial. That’s normal. That is totally normal. What happens? It’ll have to be okay. Uh, whatever happens, it will have to be okay. But how do I accept it and cope with trying to save my dog? I’m sorry, I’m going to tear up.

So, you guys know that I’m a total dog lover, I’ve had dogs my entire life. And in March, our Scotty passed, he had cancer. And we knew it was inevitable, we knew he was going to, he was going to die at some point. And he started getting worse, you know, he got these tumors on his back and on his butt you know, things like that. And we basically just decided that we were going to make the best for him in his final months, you know.

And he did great. I mean, he literally was so funny. It’s like, he did really great up until like, the last week or so. And then he kind of lost control of his bowels. And that’s when he went, Okay. Quality of life for him is now going he’s having a harder time standing up. The tumors are bleeding. He’s losing control of his bowels, okay. And we, accepting it as hard. It is, there are babies, there are babies, they’re just, I’m sorry.

So, balancing between acceptance and denial is normal. That’s exactly what John and I did. You know, it was kind of like always doing better, you know, that kind of thing. And he would for a while, and then he would have bad days and, and things like that. So, it’s… mortality is hard. Mortality is hard. Because when our loved ones die, dogs, family, friends, it brings the reality of our own mortality home to us. And for our pets, which are our family, as far as I’m concerned. I mean, they’re, they’re my kids. You’d make it as comfortable and wonderful as possible. And when the quality of life is gone, that’s when you let them go. You know, when they’re no longer enjoying it, when they are no longer, you know, peppy? And you know, and especially if they’ve got cancer, and they’re in pain, the quality of life goes, you let them go. And it’s hard. It is so hard. When our vet, we had a wonderful vet that came to the house, and that’s the only way I would do it because then you didn’t have the terror of having to lift them up and take him in the car to the vet. The vet came out. We fed him his favorite meal, which was

A cheeseburger and french fries. That’s his favorite treat. And, you know, we just let them know we loved him, and she administered the shots and went really peacefully. And I still miss him. I still miss him. He was a little stinker. But of all of our dogs. I got to tell you, Scotty was the most difficult and he lived the longest, which actually took like, what are you doing, God? But he was he had a lot of behavioral issues. We found him he was a stray. You had a lot of behavioral issues. He managed to bike all of us in the family.

54:52

He was a challenge. And he was a really good dog and when he was good, he was great at when he was having a moment he wasn’t. But, you know, a lot of people would have probably given him up or abandoned him. And my attitude is, is when you take on a dog you take on the dog behavioral issues and all. So, um, and people always laugh. They’re like, you’re a therapist, and you have a dog. That’s crazy. And I’m like, whoa, yeah, it kind of makes sense. So, accepting, and denial, it’s part of the grieving process. So, there’s the five stages of grief, and they’re not linear.

Because there would be some days when I’d be like, okay with it, and other days when I’d be like, Oh, no. bargaining. So, there’s like, acceptance, denial, shock, bargaining. Anger. Yeah. So, you kind of flip back and forth between those. And it’s not linear. It’s more like, yeah, you know, and up that way. So, losing a dog is really hard, because they’re dependent on us. And it’s just like I said, it’s like, you just enjoy them. And until their quality of life has gone, and then when their quality of life has gone, then you do the right thing, and you let them go. And you grieve, and you grieve. And like I said, there are still I mean, John and I, what were we doing the other day, we were walking, and we saw something, and we were like, oh Scotty would really love that. Or, you know, Scotty, would you know whatever Kyle would or, you know, one of the other dogs that we’d had over the years. And so, you’re always going to love them, and you’re always going to miss them. And it’s normal. It’s normal. And I swear to God, when two people are like, Oh, it’s just a dog. Why are you grieving over a dog. This was my child. I don’t have kids, I got dogs, you know. So don’t let anybody shame you for grieving over a dog. Don’t ever let anybody shame you for grieving over any life that is lost. You know, life is beautiful. And dogs are beautiful, and they’re wonderful. And they’re so loving, and they’re so unconditional. That’s the thing that I love the most about them is that if you want to see unconditional love, get a dog. Seriously. So, you’re not wrong, sweetie. And it’s, it’s hard. Losing a dog is really hard. And I’m really sorry. And cancer is hard because it’s not fair. You will be okay.

So right now, just know that you are doing the best you can for your pup, and there’s going to be good days and there’s going to be bad days. And you know, the cancer is eventually going to, unfortunately

make him go or her go over the rainbow bridge.

And you just grieve, and you just acknowledge it, but you enjoy them while they’re here. So just, you know, take them out for walks, feed them their favorite treats, you know, just enjoy them while they’re here and just allow just allow whatever emotion comes up, even the anger, you know, occasionally I would get mad at God. It’s like, Why? Why are all these horrible?

57:48

People allowed to live these amazingly long lives and dogs get to be here for 15 If you’re lucky if no

one is up. So yeah, just allow. Just allow, just allow, just allow, it’s okay. It’s totally okay. And again, I am so sorry about your puppy. I’m sorry that that really sucks. I’m sorry that it is hard to imagining life without them. And then one other bit of advice I would give you is allow yourself to grieve because John and I were not ready to adopt until recently now we’re kind of kind of going okay. I think we’re ready. It’s been what is it nine months or so? And we miss having a dog we do we miss it for two reasons. One, the dogs were always great at making us get out and walk three times a day, get out and walk you know, and to I miss coming home to a dog, you know, it’s like that unconditional love. Just go for a walk, you know, that kind of thing. So, give yourself time to grieve. Give yourself time to grieve. A lot of people are like, oh, get a dog immediately. And I’m like, no, I can’t I just I need to grieve. So, allow yourself, allow yourself to grieve. Okay, one more question, then I think we’re done.

Okay. How do you prove to yourself that it’s okay to be successful? Okay, so what you’re going to do is mirror work, you’re going to do mirror work, so it’s not proving It’s believing! I know. So, think about it. If we if you tell a kid often enough that they’re stupid, the kid is going to start acting stupid. If you tell a kid often enough that they don’t deserve success or they have no worth or whatever. We’re going to grow up believing that we don’t deserve success and we have no worth. So, work the self-esteem workbook like nobody’s business. Glen Schiraldi the self-esteem workbook, there is a section in there on your value and your worth. Do you understand you have value and worth worth on that? Because that’s all interconnected with being successful because being successful and having value and worth all kinds of one, you know what I’m saying? So do me your work. Hi. Good to see you. Have a great day. I guess

give you permission to be successful, and then walk out and do that every damn day, seriously. And then at night, you’re going to do the same thing, a little bit of a twist. Hey, good to see you again, here are three things you did right today, or here are three things you were successful at today. And you remind yourself, and then hey, you know what? It’s okay for you to go to bed. It’s okay for you to sleep well have a great night, go to bed. Do you see where I’m going with that? So that’s what you want to do. It’s not about proving to yourself; it’s about really allowing yourself and really recognizing your own worth. Okay. And in the last half of this, I’m starting my second semester in college, congratulations. And I’m constantly having panic attacks because I’m doing well. Oh my god, I’m so proud of you. That is freaking awesome. Not that you’re having the panic attacks, but you’re doing well. That’s awesome. The self-sabotage hits hard. So, what you’re going to want to do is you’re going to want to do a challenge letter.

Who told you it wasn’t okay to be successful? Who told you wasn’t okay to enjoy college? Who told you? It wasn’t, okay? Dear, whoever it was, your mom, your dad, your grandparents do whatever. Bleep the bleep bleep bleep out a bleeping middle finger to you. Thank you very much. I get to be successful. Why? Because I say so.

It’s okay for me to enjoy college. It’s okay for me to be successful. I do not need to self-sabotage. You taught me all of this…I’m putting it back on you CPTSD from surviving to thriving P Walker. The self-esteem workbook Glen Schiraldi. Absolutely. Write and burn challenge letters to this. You have the right to be successful. And you can tell yourself that in the mirror, I have the right to be successful. It’s okay for me to be successful. So that’s what I want you to do. Oh, my goodness. Thank you. So yeah, it’s challenging those mistaken thoughts. So, CBT, right? Cognitive behavioral therapy, challenging the mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs, this is a mistaken thought. This is a mistaken belief. This isn’t even your thought. This is theirs. Put it back on it, put it back on, it’s not yours. I have the right to be successful. And guys, I’ve had to do that my entire life because I’ve had to undo all of the BS that my mom and dad gave me. I have the right to be successful. I have the right to not feel shame all the time. I have the right to fill in the blank. So that’s what you want to do get with a good therapist. You know, there should be therapists available on the college campus. Work on self-esteem, get the Schiraldi book work on that. It can only help. So yeah, and it’s challenging those mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs, and then putting them to bed. So, there it is. Alright, my loves, you guys. Go have a great week and I will talk to you later. Bye.

1:02:58

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. Ph.D. level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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The post 10-30-2022 You Are Not the UN. Stop Peace Keeping. appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Kris Godinez  01:02

Okay, so, today’s show. So today is when the parent is the enabler and when I was preparing for this show, I got triggered. So, trigger warning, trigger warning, trigger warning just letting you know. So, when we come out of and this is dealing with family of origin, this is dealing with our childhood, okay. Not necessarily us in a romantic relationship with an abuser, but us as adult children of abusive parents, okay.

So, when we come out of a family of origin, where there is somebody who’s disordered and there is the other parent, that’s a little bit saner, but they’re still playing the game. They’re an enabler. So, let’s talk about what enablers and the reason I want to bring this up is because so many people have, you know, instant messaged me, sent me messages sent me text sent me emails, you know, I don’t get it. Why am I going for the same type over and over and over and over and over again? Why am I continuingly? Dating different faiths, different names, same behavior, you know, so it has to do with our family of origin. And it has to do with the inner child. So, when we are in a dysfunctional family, okay, so the family is dysfunctional. We don’t necessarily know it because the family the dysfunctional family, has normalized it the dysfunctional family has said, Oh, no, every single family is like this. Oh, no. All the families do this. Well, let me just clue you into something. Abuse is not normal. Abuse is not natural abuse does not happen in every single family. Does every family have its issues? To be sure, but not every family has got incest, verbal abuse, physical abuse, religious abuse, sexual abuse, you know, emotional abuse. Yeah, not every family has got that going on. But what a dysfunctional family of origin will do is they will say, Oh, no, every family is like this. Oh, no, you don’t see the pink elephant taking a dump in the corner of the living room. You’re the problem, not the pink elephant. And so we start normalizing the abuse even though in our heads we know this is not normal if you want a really good example “What’s Wrong With Your Dad?” this is about me growing up in a completely effed up dysfunctional oh my god, alcoholic addicted family. And, you know, the, the process the journey that I went through to get from point A to here so, um, What’s Wrong With Your Dad? Anyway, so the point being is, is that when we’re in it, and when I was in it, and when we’re all in it, we cannot see the forest through the trees. It is normal to us to have the chaos to have the dysfunction to have the knock down drag out fights to have the hitting to have the verbal abuse, the abuse of alcohol or drugs to have that is all been normalized to us. And we’re told by the enabling parent Oh no, this is normal. Oh, no, every family does this. Oh, no, you you don’t see the pink elephant No, no.

So then what happens is, is that the main abuser so let’s say one of the parents is really batshimomo crazy and is the main abuser and the other one is ineffectual. kowtows to the abuser, doesn’t stand up for the kids doesn’t protect them, doesn’t, you know, do the right thing kind of thing and just allows the abuse and what I’ve seen is that the abuser will start abusing and the ineffectual parent will make an excuse to leave and not even be there when the abuse is happening. Or they’re standing right there as the abuse is happening and the kid is looking at the parent going help me save me. And this parent refuses or flips the script and starts abusing with the abuser. That’s the other thing I’ve seen happen. So, this is why I’m saying this whole topic has been very triggering for me. And I apologize if you guys get triggered, just, you know, go do something else for a while, come back and we’ll, it’ll, it’ll be okay. So basically, in my family of origin, my mom didn’t participate in the abuse, but she knew damn good And well, it was happening, you know, for example, the worst abuse that happened are the worst. The worst known Actually, no, she was around for a lot of it. So, you know, my dad would hit me just out of the blue, just to he would get pissed. And he would just turn around and just backhand me half the times, because I probably said something truthful. So, you know, that he didn’t like, and the other half of the time, he was sexually abusing me and my sisters, and my mother was well aware of this. So, it wasn’t like, I didn’t know now she knew she absolutely knew. And she was only too happy to abdicate that part of her relationship with her husband with her abuser. To the girls to us, she was willing to sacrifice us on the altar of her comfort, so that she stayed safe, and she was comfortable. But we were getting abused. So, and she knew it was happening. You know, my dad used to barge into the bathroom and ogle us when we were, you know, taking a shower, or he would, you know, I went out one time to show him a new dress I bought and he grabbed me and French kissed me. And then like looked me up and down. Like he couldn’t wait to you know, do something. My mom was standing at the window, and she saw the whole thing I came in, I confronted her and I said, Look, he just did this, what are you going to do, and she got that sick little smile on her face. And it was like nothing, I’m not gonna do anything. And that’s when I was like, I gotta get out of here because he’s, he’s eventually going to rape me if I don’t leave. So and I was think I was what 16 When that happened? 15, 16. So that is what an enabler does the enabler knows the abuse is going on, and does nothing, nothing or worse, they know the abuse is going on. And they join in.

Kris Godinez  07:23

So what that tells the kid and my mom actually said these words better you than me.

Kris Godinez  07:31

Better you than me. I’m sorry, a parent’s job, their whole job, you had one job, you had one job, and you fricked it up. Your job as a parent is to protect those kids. Now, why does this happen? Why does the enabler turn a blind eye? Engage in the abuse? You know, Better you than me all of this crap. Because you’re dealing with somebody who is not operating on the level of an adult, you’re not you’re not dealing with somebody who’s operating on the level of an adult. So, when my mom and I started working through all of this stuff, all of her abuse started coming out. Now this does not excuse it, it absolutely does not excuse her behavior. And I told her that I said this does not excuse it. It sure as hell explains it, but it does not excuse it. So, in her case, she was sexually molested by her step grandfather. Her mother was a narcissist, my grandmother Bertha, who I call another b word, but not Bertha. So anyway, the point being is, is that my grandmother was abusive, her. Her parents, her mom’s step, dad, step husband, whatever, sexually abused my mom. My mom married my dad who was crazy, obviously borderline and narcissistic. And so she just abdicated, it was like Better you than me. She actually said that. And at that point in time, when we were talking through this, she said she was about four years old in her head, and I believe her. I totally believe her. Now, this does not excuse their turning a blind eye. But it certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense than thinking you’re dealing with an adult, a rational adult who is conscious and aware and awake. I can guarantee you at that moment in time my mom was four years old, didn’t know what to do. Scared out of her mind wanted to protect herself now do I excuse that? No, no absofreakinglutely not! No, no, no, no, no! She’s 100% responsible for allowing the abuse to continue 100% But now I understand as an adult What the freak was going on here. Because in my head at the time, I was like, why are you not protecting me? And so in my mind, my kid mind I was 15, 16 years old. It was oh, I’m not worthy of protection. Oh, well, this is what I deserve. Oh, well, clearly my mom who’s the saner of the two which is not saying much when you really think about it. But the saner of the two is not willing to protect me. So, what’s my worth? Because remember, parents whole job you got one job, parents, that’s to protect your kids and give them a sense of self. Okay? Two jobs, protect the kids and give them a sense of self. Okay, three jobs, protect the kids, give them a sense of self and make sure they have all the basic needs, you know. So, the point being is is that the parents, how our parents treat us, how our parents treated us becomes our inner dialogue, it becomes either our cheerleader or our inner critic. And as kids, we have a tendency to make a lot of mistaken assumptions about who we are about our worth in the world, based off of what our parents said, and did.

So, I found a great article online called Better you than me by Jay Read. He is an LPC. He’s got a blog on there, and it’s called better than you than me going unprotected from narcissistic abuse by the enabler parent. Okay, um, so what I wanted to hit was, okay, um, alright, sometimes tragically, something unnatural happens in families, a child is born to someone motivated by something other than the human connection. Instead, this person wants to see others, even his or her own children suffer that would be a narcissist. They prize the feeling of power and control they have to when controlling and dominating another human being. This becomes so valued that no appeal to morality will impede them. In my practice, most of the clients who survived such vicious upbringings had one primary abusive parent and the other was the enabler parent. And the typically less overtly abusive, but passive and compliant in the face of the other parent’s abuse. So, today’s blog will be discussed, discussed surviving and recovering. So, sins of omission. So, what he talks about is what it looks like. And what it looks like is exactly what I just described, you know, the abuse happening. And the enabler, either checking out leaving, or you know, what’s the word? I’m looking for? Plausible denial, that kind of thing. Like, oh, I didn’t see it, or oh, I wasn’t there, even though they were there when it started, or worse, them joining in on it or worse, the kid coming to the parent, how many of us raise your hand? How many of us have gone to the saner parent and said, Dad or Mom is abusing me? I don’t know what to do help me and guess what that parent does? They either minimize it, deny it, tell you you’re a liar or tell you that you miss understood. I’m sorry. It’s kind of hard to misunderstood a backhand at the dinner table when you didn’t do anything wrong. Or to misunderstand your father shoving their tongue down your throat that is there’s no misunderstanding there. I’m sorry. But what that does is gaslighting.

So, then they gaslight us Okay, so what does that do? What does it do to an adult? Think about it when somebody tells you you’re lying minimizes gaslights you. Rewrites history tells you, you miss understood when you know

Kris Godinez  13:31

higher power well that you did not misunderstand. So, what that does is that invalidates us that invalidates our gut instinct. Oh, isn’t that interesting. So then as adults, we get the distinct message either verbally like I did better you than me or non-verbally I’m not going to do anything because I’m going to get in trouble so I’m going to sacrifice you for my safety. So, we get that message that we’re not worth saving. And because we had a difficult relationship with probably both parents I had a difficult relationship with both it wasn’t a walk through the park with my mom either. But at least it was an abusive as my dad and she was willing to work on it once he was dead. So that was good.

Um, but the point being is, is that when we have that kind of effed up messed up relationship with our parents, the inner child, the inner child is now running the show, okay? Because we literally stopped developing at whatever age that abuse occurred and then we try to fix it, try to fix it, try to fix it, try to fix it. How can I make them stop abusing me? How can I make them listen to me? How can I make them love me? How can I… and this my friends is the beginning of codependency and this is where we get it and this is also why when we go out into the world well I left home when I was 17 Cuz I didn’t, you know, that was that was as soon as I could get away, after dad did that I was like, I gotta make my escape plans, I got to get out. And I did. And I left and I started working catering jobs, and I started working as a waitress and I started working or whatever I had to in order to get the bleep away. Okay, and I’m glad I did. Um, but that once I went out into the world, I’ll give you three guesses what kind of guys I dated, they were all Bob juniors seriously. Every single last one of them with the exception of maybe two, were my dad. And I was working through my dad. And if I wasn’t working through my dad, guess who else I dated? My mom. So, it was like, either I was dating somebody who reminded me of my dad or I was dating somebody that reminded me of my mom.

And it wasn’t until I really got into therapy, now I started therapy when I was in high school, but my dad put a stop to it. Big surprise. I went back to therapy when I was in college, helpful, but not enough, they didn’t really understand trauma. And they certainly weren’t looking at personality disorders and trauma at that time in that particular school that I was at. So then when I went to Oregon, I got with Fabian Smith, who was a counselor up there, and we started plowing through all of the abuse and all of the BS that I had to put up with as a kid, it took about seven years. So, you know, and that’s when I kind of went, Oh, I want to help people. And that’s when I started working on my getting my psychology stuff going. So anyway, the point being is that until we deal with that inner child, that inner child is going to look outside of us, because this is the question I’ve got, why do I keep dating over and over again? Why do I keep dating the same people over and over again? What am I doing? It’s your inner child. It’s your inner child. And it’s your self-esteem, it’s your lack of self-esteem. So, when we really understand our worth, and that we did not deserve any of that BS that we had to go through, we did not deserve to be screamed at, we did not deserve to be hit. We did not deserve to be sexually molested; we did not deserve to be religiously abused; we did not deserve any of this stuff.

And, and this was the hard one for me to get. My mom was just as abusive as my dad in a different way. They were both dysfunctional. And that one was so hard for me to wrap my head around, because the little kid inside of me desperately needed one parent, Dear God, just one that actually had my best interest at heart. And the reality of it was, they did not. Neither one of them, neither one of them. Dad had whatever weirdness was going on with him, and my mom had her own interests at heart.

Kris Godinez  17:51

And that’s heartbreaking for a child and inner child, an adult child to recognize when you finally are able to go, oh, neither one of them. Yeah, both parents were nut jobs. You betcha. You betcha not gonna deny that they were absolutely both parents were nut jobs. So, you know, when you really realize that when you’re really able to sink that in and go, neither one of them had my back. That’s when the healing begins. Because when I’m working with people that have been abused, oftentimes what will happen is somebody will come in and sit on my couch, tell me, Oh, I’ve been through all of these relationships, all of these, you know, terrible, abusive relationships. And then I ask them about their childhood. And they start telling me that they had a perfect childhood. And I’m sitting here going, does not compute, you are telling me this, but then you’re telling me this. And then eventually, as they become safe enough, they start telling the truth, telling the whole story, you know, they will tell part of the story. But then they’ll start telling the whole story and then able to put the pieces together for them to figure it out themselves. But the denial runs deep in us, it does. The force is strong in this one, the denial is strong, and this one does the same thing. Because we’ve been groomed. And we’ve been threatened, we’ve been intimidated, we’ve been fearful, we’ve been obligated, we’ve been guilt tripped, to not see the pink elephant taking a doodoo in the corner of the living room.

And the enabling parent is the one that helps with that, the enabling parent is the one that allows the abuser to have access to us. The enabling parent is the one that allows the abuse to go on. For years. Now. I’m not talking those of us who got into a relationship had children with one of these monsters, realized it and then got out I’m not talking about that. My mom intentionally stayed with this guy until he died. And her whole thing was the money, the money, the money, the money, the money. I need the money, I need the money. I need the money. It’s not worth it. It’s not worth it. It is not worth sacrificing your children on the altar of financial security! It is not. It is not. Is it difficult to leave an abuser? Hell yeah. Because they’ll do every, every rotten thing in the world you can possibly think of to screw you out of child support, out of alimony out of whatever, because they don’t understand child support is going to the child, all they see is that they’re giving you money. And so, it pisses them off. But honestly, in the end, is it worth it to get out of there for your kids safety? Yes. Because now your kids have got a fighting chance to not get abused every single day to get therapy to get some self-esteem. So, this is why in working with people that have had a family of origin that are just dysfunctional, just dysfunctional, working on the self-esteem and recognizing your worth separate from this family of origin is so important. Because like I said, the inner child goes, ooh, family of origin stuff. I had a horrible relationship with these people, maybe one or both. I know if I can find somebody out there, that reminds me of them. And I can make them love me, I prove these people wrong. Half of a doodoo sandwich, half of a doodoo sandwich. Total due to sandwich it never ends. Well, guys, it doesn’t.

So, what you’re gonna want to do is you’re gonna want to work on you. It’s all about you. It is no longer about the family of origin. I would seriously and this is what I did. Write and burn letters. I had a whole bonfire going about my Dad, are you kidding me? So write and burn letters, and it may be 27 pages of go pound sand, absolutely. You know, it may be you know, a letter specifically about a specific event. But keep writing it get it out of your head. Get it onto paper, take your power back. I no longer need to dance to your tune. We’re done. I don’t need you in my head. I refuse. Thanks for playing bye I own me. I know my worth. And my worth is so much more than what you lied to me about.

Kris Godinez  22:13

Mm hmm. Because they lied to us. They absolutely lied to us. Absolutely. So, write and burn letters, journal. So, this is this is how I wrote this first book is that I started journaling. And I started going okay, what happened? And why? When? Where did this come from? Why am I doing this? Or why did I do that? And so, I started journaling, okay, well, this is what happened when I was born. This is what happened when I was a teenager, this was happening when I was young adult, this is what you know, and I started making it into a story and I realized, oh, other people could benefit from this might find this helpful. So, you know, you never know what’s gonna come out of it. One of the things I hear all the time is, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, I don’t want to relive it. I don’t want to relive it. Well, you know, you’re not really reliving it, you’re remembering it, for sure. Totally. You’re remembering it, but you’re not reliving it, it’s already done. It’s already happened. That’s why EMDR can be very, very helpful in working through this kind of trauma. Because it kind of bypasses the amygdala and the amygdala.

Remember, the amygdala is stupid, it can’t tell the difference between past present future and so when we think of the abuse, it goes. You know, here now here, now, here now here now, that’s what the amygdala does is trying to keep us safe. But unfortunately, it’s not keeping us safe. It’s hindering us from healing. So, a couple of therapies that might be helpful with this is EFT, Emotional Freedom therapy. That’s the tapping one. I’ve had several clients do that they’ve gotten a lot of success with it. Other clients love EMDR other clients don’t, it just depends. So, try those CBT is good. But don’t be afraid of remembering. You really are benefiting from remembering for a couple of reasons. Because now you can go back, you can look at it. And you can take your power back from that situation. You can see how efffed up those people are healthy, normal people, healthy, normal parents, do not sacrifice their children on any altar, not financial, not sexual, not for safety, not for…

Your job is to protect those kids, and give them the sense of self-worth, we reflect back to our children who they are. So, for example, it’s like, you know, I’ll have a client that’s got a baby and they’re fussing, right? And so, I’ll say, “Hey, bring the bring the kid over to the camera.” And I’ll be like, oh, “Hi it’s you! Look at you” and the next thing you know, that kid is smiling, because I’ve let them know they have worth. I know. I know. But think about it. When you’re dealing with abusive parents and you have an abuser that’s constantly telling the kid they’re stupid and ugly. Guess what the kid starts believing about themselves. And guess how the kid starts acting appropriately, you know, to that nasty message, that’s why you’ve got to be so careful what you say to children, and how you say it, because that helps them or hurts them know who they are in this world. So, if you’re like, you know, reflecting back to them that you’re glad to see them, and it’s good to see you, hello, inner child work. Hi, good to see you have a great day, I give you permission to say no, or I give you permission to have worth, holy cow. It’s okay for you to like yourself, you know, that kind of thing. That’s what is important. So, I’m sorry, I just went off track. So anyway, the point being is, is that the enabling parent is the one that really, I think they do more damage in a way because they didn’t believe us. They told us we were lying. They minimized they intentionally continued and allowed the abuse to happen, which then made us have some mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs about who we are in the world and what our worth is. So, to work on this super, super quickly. Yes, I do have some journal prompts. So, I’ll talk to you about that in a minute. To work on this super, super quickly. Get with a good trauma therapist. I’m not kidding you. I would I give it all to Miss Smith up in Oregon, because if it weren’t for her, I don’t think I’d be where I am today. She was amazing. She was patient and she was wonderful. I really liked her. So, I’m good with a good trauma therapist, start working through this stuff. Don’t be afraid of the memories. They cannot hurt you. They have no power here. They’re just memories. Are they uncomfortable? Hell yeah. Like I said, when I was prepping for this show, poor John. I was like, triggered and he’d be like, brave, you know, and you know, it really it was triggering was absolutely. But the thing of it is that we want to go through this and master it so that we can be like, I am the master of these thoughts. These memories. These thoughts and memories are not the master of me. Why? Because I effing say so. Bleep the bleep

Kris Godinez  27:06

bleep bleep bleep and BLEEP you memory. There we go. You know what I’m saying? So, it’s important to take your power back, it’s important to work through it, journaling, writing and burning letters.

Here are the books I want you to get.

It’s all the same books that I always mentioned. But here we go. The inner child workbook, Katherine Taylor, or any inner child workbook, I don’t care just get one start working it that’s  Katherine Taylor’s the one I like but there’s others. The self esteem workbook by Glenn Schiraldi, the reason I like that is because it gives you clear directions, okay, you’re going to do this for two weeks, and you’re going to do this for two weeks, you’re going to do this for 28 days, you’re going to do this, you know, and it kind of gives you a thing to do daily, okay, like, what are you thinking? Journal down your thoughts? What are you thinking? What are you feeling? What are you telling yourself? What is the mistaken thought that you have? What is your worth? Do you understand that you have got worth because we all have Got worth we have all of us that have been raised by these narcissists. Man, we have worth that we don’t even realize seriously. So, recognize your worth, start working on little things near work. Hi, good to see you have a great day, I give you permission to say no, I give you permission to like yourself, I give you permission to have boundaries, whatever it is, you’re working on that day.

So that is journal prompts. Okay, so for me, the way I did the journaling for the book, and what I suggest to my clients is pick an age. When did you have the most difficult time so for me, it was teenage, because my dad waited until I was a teenager before we started the sexual stuff. Thank God, you know, so something obviously triggered in him the age of about 12,12, 13 Because that’s when he started with all of us. So um, so yeah, so pick the age and start working on that or do a I’m angry letter Dear Mom, dear dad, dear abuser. Here’s what you did. And you list it out. You did this. You did this. You did this. You did this. How dare you? How dare you allow yourself to get angry? I think the thing of it is a lot of us and I swear to God, I’ll get to the questions in just a second. I know I’m going over a little bit. A lot of us are afraid of our emotions. Why? And I do this. I’m doing this in the blog for December because our abusers are terrified of genuine emotions. They can’t cope. They can’t cope. I can’t tell you the number of times my dad would tell me not to cry because I was a Marine took me until I was 16 to figure out I hadn’t enlisted and or not to cry because I’ll give you something to cry about. Or don’t you dare be mad at me, even though he was the abuser and doing things that really deserved anger. So, we quickly get told to shut down and to not feel so something I recommend get a feeling chart, get a feeling chart off of the internet, chart your emotions and allow your emotions, the emotions are going to come and go. I think our fear and this is our inner child fear this little kid fear is it if I cry, I’m never going to stop. That’s what it feels like when we’re dealing with that intense betrayal. Because that’s what this is when an enabling parent enables the abuser, it’s betrayal. So that intense betrayal that intense grief grieving, the loss of having a normal family that we always wanted and hoped for grieving the loss of having a normal healthy parent, at least one that cared what happened to us really, you know, so you write out these letters, the grieving letter, the angry letter, the Sad Letter, the the upset letter, the you did this letter the and then you burn them, burn it, let it go.

Giving these letters to the abuser is only going to give them ammunition for world war three, don’t do it. Don’t do it. So these letters are for you. And these letters are for you to allow yourself to have the emotions that you could not have at the time of the abuse. Does that make sense? So yeah, write and burn letters. Absolutely. And again, Shahida Arabi’s. Book is great. She’s got a whole bunch of journal suggestions. Absolutely. Write your inner teenager love letter. Write your little kid love letter. I think that’s important. If you were to parent yourself as that age, what would you want it to hear? What did you want to hear that you never got to hear? What did you always want to hear? So mostly, if you start talking to your inner kid, they just want to be loved. They do. They just want to be heard. They want to be believed how many of us were not believed when we told about the abuse?

How, you know, how many of us felt unseen, unheard? Not validated. So, you want to see and hear and validate your inner children, children plural, because there’s going to be different ages and because cognitively we respond to things differently. So, start with a love letter to whatever age you had the hardest time with. Dear little six year old me. Oh my gosh, I love you. What an amazing little child you are you survived. Wow, you are brave. And I am so proud of you. Gosh, am I glad that your mine a lot of people when I say that, they start tearing up and they start crying because they never got to hear it. So, this is why I’m saying it’s so important to reraise ourselves to reparent ourselves to give ourselves that validation, that respect, that love that being heard and seen that we never got from our family of origin. And especially that we never got from the parents that were probably acting on the level of a two year old seriously when you think about it. You know, both of those parents were acting on the level of a two year old my wants my needs me Me, me, me me more, more more, keeping myself safe. So yeah, you get to be the responsible adult and you get to love you you get you get to you get to talk to yourself the way you always wanted to be talked to. And that’s why the mirror work is so important. I want you to get into the habit of speaking to yourself with love and respect and happy to see you well my gosh, it’s you happy to see you have a great day. I give you permission to be awesome, you know and then walk out. It doesn’t have to be a huge monologue.

The other thing I want you to do is I want you to remind yourself of things you’re doing right so three things at night. Three things at night that you did, right. Hey, good to see you again. You go back to the full length mirror. Hi, good to see you again. You know why you did this right? You did this right? And you did this right? I’m so proud of you have a wonderful night sleep really well have great dreams. I’ll see you tomorrow morning sleep well and then go to bed. That’s what a good parent would do. So this is why I want you to reparent it yourself in this way. So I hope those suggestions help. Okay, let’s dive into the questions.

Okay. Um, can a parent be both a narc and an enabler? My narc mother abused me but also enabled her oldest daughter half-sister to abuse me in every way possible and cheered her on to do it absolutely! Absolutely. So, when I talk about flying monkeys because let’s let’s just go down to brass tacks here. Flying Monkeys are enablers, enablers are flying monkeys. They do the bidding of the abuser and there’s two types of flying monkeys. So, there’s one type where they’re just like Pollyanna, don’t get it have never seen abuse have never been around abuse don’t understand abuse. They don’t get the, the nefarious way that abusers think they don’t understand any of this, and so getting them to understand, hey, I don’t want you running back to this person and telling them what I’m doing. Boom because they don’t understand okay, that’s that’s one type of flying monkey. They’re just kind of ignorant so you educate them but then if they continue to do it after you’ve educated them that’s when you go buh bye, go pound sand, buh bye so that’s one kind. The other kind is narcissists. Other narcissists, usually minor narcissists. Sometimes major, enable other narcissists because they recognize themselves in the narcissist, so that’s why you see gangs of bullies. That’s why you see people jumping on a bandwagon with another narcissist because it’s other narcissists that recognize themselves in the main narcissist and they want that power. They want that aggrandizement. So yeah, it is totally common to have narcissists be enablers. You betcha for either a more major narcissist a more powerful narcissist or just for a narcissist in general because they like them. They recognize themselves in them. Yeah, there it is. healthy normal people do not bully let me just be very clear. healthy normal people ain’t got time for that we got a life to live, there’s beaches to go to and dogs do pet I’m sorry, my life’s too busy for that kind of crap. But with abusers it’s all about me, me, me I, I, I,  more, my genitals. That’s all they care about. So, and they want the power. They want the control. It’s all about power and control. So, the yes, they will hook up with an abuser absolutely! And in that case, what you want to do is go no contact, you know, if you’ve got family members that are abusing and the parent is encouraging it. That’s when you block, delete, go bye, go no contact, because if you were not related to these people, would you have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly. That is why I moved as far away from my dad as I possibly could. And I had very little contact with him. So, because no, I would not have anything to do with him would I would with my mom. Yeah, I would, especially after my dad died and she started working on herself. So, but yeah, if you were not related to these people, if you were not related to these bozos, would you have anything to do with them? If the answer is no, act accordingly go no contact, block, delete, keep yourself safe because they don’t change. It does not get better. Um,

Kris Godinez  37:29

okay.

Okay, so this goes back to the question. I was talking about reliving the abuse. I’m scared of reliving the abuse and resisting doing the books, is this self-sabotaging? Well, yeah, it is in a way. So that’s why I say if there’s a great deal of fear around, working through the trauma, get with a trauma therapist, seriously get EMDR, EFT Emotional Freedom therapy, it’s a good, good route to go. So, it’s common, it’s normal. But remember, fear is a thought that’s all it is false evidence appearing real and the amygdala cannot tell the difference between false evidence appearing real and a real threat. It’s all the same. And that’s why the amygdala goes here now, here now, here now, you know, freaks out the whole thing. So, the fear is, remember this and this is it’s so funny. I like to think of fear as a bully. I like to think of fear as a tool that the bully uses. And so, when somebody tries to intimidate me, or make me fearful, or anything like that, that’s when I go middle finger to that fear and I’m going to go do what’s going to heal me because the bully, the abuser does not want me to work on myself does not want me to be healthy, happy whole, etc, etc, etc. So that’s one way to deal with the fear. Is it self-sabotage? Yeah, because remember, when we did start separating from our abusers, when I first moved out, my dad accused me of you know, being a whore and sleeping around I wasn’t, you know, all of this stuff because he was angry because I got away and I wasn’t his punching bag anymore. And so, he had to find another punching bag. So yeah, they will punish us for getting healthy. Oh, well, bye cutting you off. Not gonna see you, hasta lauego, buh bye, you know. So yeah, you can’t allow fear to keep you from bettering yourself.

I dissociate a lot. How do I stay present? That is totally common with trauma, trauma targets. So, dissociation is our brain just kind of going, peace out can’t cope. So, when you dissociate, I again strongly suggest getting with a good trauma therapist. Dissociation is a normal part of PTSD. It is I know it sucks. So, you got to figure out what the triggers are. Number one so that you understand when you’re dissociated. So, what was the trigger? And remember, triggers are not necessarily.

Kris Godinez  40:08

It’s not necessarily always just a thought, it can be a smell, it can be a taste, it can be a sound, it can be a feeling, it can be, you know, it can be anything. So, try to figure out what your triggers are, that’s going to help your therapist go in the right direction to help you work on those triggers, so that you can take your power back so that you’re not feeling helpless so that you don’t feel like you need to be like, bye. You know what I’m saying and it is a part of PTSD, CPTSD, it is a part of that we check out when it’s too much. That’s why in post traumatic stress disorder, complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, oftentimes, the target of abuse knows abuse was going on, but they can’t necessarily remember the specific events because it’s been too much, too frightening, too overwhelming to whatever. Totally normal, totally normal, absolutely, totally normal. So, I would say get with a good trauma therapist and work on that.

Um, can one narc parent abuse the other parent to the point where the other parent becomes disordered and mentally damaged. And that parent then becomes the bad one. Yeah, yep, yep. Yep, they can. Absolutely it’s, it’s crazy. And that’s and that’s why I’m saying, if you recognize that you are in an abusive relationship, get out, get out no amount of security, or money, or prestige, or anything else is worth it. It will eventually kill you. It will either soul kill you, or you will end up becoming just as damaged as they are. And that’s pretty much what was going on with my mom. My mom went from a an abusive mother, who was oh my god, that woman anyway, from her to her first husband, who was also disordered to my dad who absolutely was disordered. So yeah, you can. You’ll just keep getting you’ll pick up fleas. How many times? I mean, my mom had so many fleas. It wasn’t even funny, you know. And so, we started working on those one by one. So yeah, it’s, it’s yeah, they can absolutely go from, you know, an enabler to completely disordered themselves. Absolutely.

Okay, Kris, I’ve been wanting to ask you if you like pickles. They reduce anxiety, which I’ve been dealing with. Just don’t drink all the juice at once. It was a hard lesson I learned, oh, so much swelling. Oh, God. Yes, I do like pickles. I do. And I don’t however, like drinking the pickle juice. I know some people swear by it, but I’m just gonna like ewwww, I do like dill pickles. Actually. I like sweet pickles, too. But, um, yeah, I love pickles. I think they’re great. And if they help, then yeah, go for it. But don’t drink it all at once. You’re absolutely right. Too much swelling. Um, okay.

Did your mother ever fully apologize for her part of the abuse? Yeah, she did. She did. That’s that is the only reason I was continuing to have a relationship with her. I confronted her. And I was like, if you want to have a relationship with me, you need to acknowledge what you did and what you didn’t do. And you need to start working on this stuff. And I got her all the books and she did. So, you know, and I do think she had a lot of fleas. She obviously had a lot of fleas from her mother, who was a narcissist. Absolutely. And then my dad who was borderline and narcissistic, he was crazy. He was all kinds of crazy. None of it good. So yeah, she picked up a lot of stuff. And she really did. blossom in those last 20 years that she was alive 20, 25 years after my dad died. And she did apologize. But did she continue to do stupid things on occasion? Yeah, she would. Absolutely. You know, I figured she wasn’t going to conquer everything this lifetime, but she made amends to me. And that’s what’s important. And, yeah, so yeah. And yeah, she did acknowledge she did acknowledge standing at the window and not doing anything and she did acknowledge sacrificing us to keep herself safe. And she was ashamed about that. So yeah, we worked through that. So that was but it was painful for her. It was freeing for me but yeah, it was good to talk about it. You know, so yeah, tough stuff.

Um, my husband did not protect me at all from his raging narc sister and enabling mother. Was this wrong? I eventually learned my strong boundaries after 20 years in a divorce. Yeah, absolutely. So here’s the deal.

Kris Godinez  44:36

Narcissistic in laws, and I think I’ve talked about this not too long ago, narcissistic in laws will go after the spouse that they think they can. And it really, it’s a loyalty test. It is it’s a loyalty test for the adult child. And so, the adult child is sitting there going, Oh, do I defend my spouse or do I go with my family? Oh my God, I don’t know what to do so, oftentimes they’ll refuse. They’ll refuse to defend the spouse and that is bad news bears. That is a red flag of Communist Party of proportions. Serious red flag. Hello. Yeah, it’s, it’s so that is that is common with adult children of narcissists if they have not worked on themselves that the abusive narc in laws will then attack the new spouse as a loyalty test. Are you going to go it’s us or them. Remember, for the abusers it’s always a win lose situation. It’s never a win win situation. And for them, it’s a loyalty test. Are you loyal to us? Are you loyal to me? Or are you loyal to your new spouse? Well, I’m sorry. But the part of the parents should be to teach those kids how to fly on their own, and go cleave to their spouse and go do them. You know what I’m saying? That’s what a good parent does. A narcissistic or borderline parent will demand loyalty to the parent instead of to the new family. And I think I’ve talked about this several times. So yeah, they absolutely they absolutely do that. Yeah, this was wrong. He should have stood up for you. Absolutely. Asofreakinglutely. Absolutely. And you know, it’s the same thing. It’s like if the roles were reversed if your family was attacking him, would you have stood up for him? Yeah, you probably would have. But the fact that he wasn’t willing to stand up for you and wasn’t willing to work on it. Oh, red flag, red flag.

When I was a kid, I felt like I was the only adult in the family. Is that crazy? No. Oh my god, sweetie, I’m telling you, I felt the same way. And I’d be willing to bet everybody here did. So, when we’ve got a disordered parent or two, you literally have been parentifide. You know, there’s, somebody’s got to be driving the car. These two bozos aren’t. So yeah, the kids become parentifide. And usually the kids, especially the one who sees the pink elephant, taking a dump in the corner of the living room is the only one that is sane enough to make rational decisions.

So, you know, one of the stories I tell in my book, you know, What’s Wrong With Your Dad? I’ve told this several times. I was 10 years old, 10. And we were in the van driving the van on some road trip. And the

Kris Godinez  47:24

automatic steering what is that called a cruise control. Cruise control got stuck, and dad couldn’t disengage it. So like he tapped on the brake wouldn’t disengage, turned it off, wouldn’t disengage car was speeding up, speeding up, speeding up. He was panicking. My mom was panicking. And I’m looking at the situation. I’m like, well throw it in neutral, turn the car off close to the side of the road problems. All right. So, the fact that the two adults sitting here who both had their driver’s licenses, couldn’t figure out to do something so logical and so simple as to throw it into neutral, turn off the car Coast over to the side of the road, so we can get off safely. And a 10-year-old who hadn’t driven yet, but obviously watched a lot of driving, you know, could figure that out. It’s like, why, why? Why why as a 10-year-old, was I the only one to figure this out? What, what’s wrong with this picture? You know, so yeah, it is very common for us to be parentifide. And what’s interesting is, is at that particular point in time, I realized my dad was then very threatened by me because he realized I knew what to do. Because at that time, he was screaming at me Shut up, you don’t know what you’re doing. Bla bla bla, my mom finally started screaming back at him. She knows what she’s doing. Do what she says. He did what I said, we were able to get over to the side of the road. And from that moment, I can pinpoint it. From that moment on is when he started telling me I was the cute one. Not the smart one. So, isn’t that interesting? So yeah, yeah, we are parentifide. Absolutely. But then if we show them up, they get pissed. And then they start trying to put us down, you know, discard, devalue, etc, etc, etc. Okay, um, yeah. So that’s you’re not crazy. A lot of us felt parentifide. You bet.

What do you think happens to the family when the SG scapegoat goes no contact? I’m two years no contact. Now. What do you think happens to my elderly parents, my dad is in her enabler always has been? Well, so what happens is when a child especially the scapegoat leaves the family. So first of all, what’s going to happen usually, is that the family and the flying monkeys desperately try to get the scapegoat back into the family system because the rest of the family doesn’t want to play the game of your it. Because now the the abuser is going to have to find a new scapegoat. They can use you the old scapegoat for a while and talk about you and all of this. But if you’re no contact with them, and there’s no drama, eventually that gets old. And now they have to find a new scapegoat. So usually what they do is they, the roles change, they find a new scapegoat. And it’s especially hard on a family on a child where they’re the only child because they end up playing the golden child and the scapegoat. Talk about confusing. So, um, yeah, the family roles change, they have to pick a new scapegoat. And they’ll, they’ll gossip, they’ll do whatever for a long, long time. But if there’s no new information, like if they can’t get new information on you, and it’s all old information, and it’s not exciting, they’ll find another scapegoat, guarantee it. And it could be anyone, it could be grandparents that they decide to start picking on it could be other children, they decide to start picking out it could be the spouse, it could be whatever. So yeah, absolutely.

Um, okay. My brain keeps bringing up all the good times. And I tend to minimize the bad times, how do I stop this? Totally common? Oh, my God, every one of us here has done that. guarantee it. So, it’s denial. So, what you want to do is you want to write out every single rotten thing that these people have ever done to you seriously. And when your mind starts going down memory lane, because remember, guys, we are in Hoover season, this is when families reach out to the kids that have gone no contact with them. This is when exes reach out to the person who said I see you for what you are by. So, from now until the middle of February is Hoover season. And they’re counting on the nostalgia of this time of year to get you to contact them. So, you want to write out every rotten thing that they ever, ever did to you. And you keep that somewhere where you can see it so that when your mind starts going, Oh, I really miss them. I remember the good times and and this that and the other thing you can be like, Oh yeah, and then they did this. And then they did this and then they did that oh man, then they did Mother Clucker. And then they didn’t you know, do you see where I’m going with that to remind yourself because we tend to do that. It’s kind of a it’s like a human defense mechanism. We tend to forget the bad times so that we keep going, you know, so but in this case, this is harmful because then this leads to relapse in that we come back to the abuser because we fool ourselves into thinking oh, but it was so good. And this happened and was so fun.

Kris Godinez  52:30

Don’t do it. Write out every rotten thing that ever happened and remind yourself of who they really are. All right, my love’s go have a wonderful week Drink plenty of water be good yourselves. Be careful out there on the roads. So, because people driving crazy. So anyway, that’s it.  alright. Talk to you later.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Chris godinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

You’ve been listening to the podcast version of We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez.

The post Throwback Thursday: 11-14-2021 WHEN THE PARENT IS THE ENABLER appeared first on Kris Godinez.

Hello and welcome to We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez podcast. I’m your host Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor. I help people get out of, and stay out of, toxic relationships. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only the views and opinions stated herein are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the ACA, the APA, or any other therapist for that matter.

I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. Ph.D. level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

Okay, hi, everybody.

All right. So, current events. Irene Gawka, is still missing in Gillette, Wyoming. If anybody has any information on that, please contact the Gillette Wyoming police, they are looking at a person of interest. They are now looking for a 55 gallon barrel that they think that the person of interest might have used to dispose of her body so they are looking for that barrel. If you know anything, please contact the Gillette Wyoming police department. So there that is.

Okay, let’s dive into today’s question or today’s topic. So, a lot of people have been writing in and going, I’m procrastinating like crazy. I’m not doing what I should be doing. What the heck is going on? Why am I doing that? Well, okay, let’s talk about procrastination. Is it self-sabotage? Yeah. Is it a trauma response? Absolutely. Is it based in fear? You betcha.

So, let’s talk about these different, different things that are going on. So how to break this down. So, let’s talk about family of origin and abusers and things like that. So, when we are with somebody who is an abuser, they force us to be perfect. So, we get this perfectionism thing going on, we get this, I have to be perfect. I have to do this perfectly. It has to be perfect, because otherwise the abuser is gonna march in and be like, “Oh, you made a mistake, grrrrrrrr!” and they’re gonna, like, rub your nose in it. So what that does to a little kid, or even an adult is that we quickly learned, oh, I can’t make mistakes. I can’t, no, it has to be perfect. I have to do this perfectly. And so when we get that perfectionism going, we then get analysis, paralysis, that’s part of procrastination is not all of it, but it’s part of it, where we just go, Oh, I can’t do it perfectly, therefore, I’m not going to do it at all. Because the fear of doing it not perfectly, is greater than not doing it at all. And it’s kind of that avoidance thing, you know, how we talked about avoidance, because, you know, we’re avoiding because we don’t want to be punished. And we don’t want to be harmed, and we don’t want to be hurt. And we don’t want the abuser to make us wrong or hurt us for not doing it to their standards. Right?

So the abuser. I just… some of the stories I have been hearing lately, it just oh, it makes my head hurt. They’ll tell the kid to clean the bathroom, for example, or the kitchen or the garage or whatever. And if the child doesn’t do it, “right”, they then punish them physically using the cleaning products.

Kris Godinez  04:12

Don’t get me started I just that I really wish this country had stronger laws about child abuse. I really do. And I really wish that there wasn’t this stigma about reporting it, you know that, you know, the parents, whichever ones were not immediately accused of making things up. But then again, you have the whole parental alienation thing where sometimes the abuser makes stuff up, so it just makes my head hurt. It makes my head hurt.

So anyway, um, so we quickly learned it’s not okay, it’s not okay to not do it perfectly. It’s not okay to not do it up to the abuser’s weird standard. And here’s the crazy thing. And I think this is where a lot of us get messed up with this is that the abuser will be okay with it one time but come back, and we will have cleaned it the exact same way, and they’ll go not good enough. And then they’ll find some excuse to physically, emotionally punish. So, it’s part of where that’s a trauma response, not doing things is a trauma response because of what has happened in the past when we got punished. So, you know, it’s something to think about. And this is something to, I think, really get with a good trauma therapist, you want to work with a trauma therapist on this, this is a trauma response, especially if it’s based in perfectionism, and especially if it’s based in “Oh, my God, not good enough. Oh, my God, what if it’s not perfect? Oh, my God”, you know. So it’s also a form of self sabotage.

So, this is who is also interconnected, it’s not even funny. So, if we have a family of origin that is disordered, abusive, harmful, hurtful, toxic, etc. If the child out shown them, they would also get punished. It’s a no-win situation. So, it’s kind of like you do a great job, you get the recognition for it. And they come unglued, because you’ve stolen their thunder, in their crazy heads. Or you get this, what’s the word I’m looking for? You basically you lie to yourself, and you go, “Oh, I do better under pressure. Oh, I do better if I have, you know, this deadline, I just wait until the very last minute.” Well study after study after study shows that that’s not true. And what it does do is, excuse me, health conditions, it creates hypertension, heart disease, etc, etc, etc. So, um, yeah, so it’s, it’s this, it’s this damned if you do and damned if you don’t kind of thing. If you outshine them and you do it, you get it done in time. And you get praise from your, your teachers or, or your boss or whatever, then the partner or the family of origin has a fit and punishes you for being on time.

So, so we get all of these weird mistaken thoughts and these weird mistaken beliefs. And there’s a lot of magic thinking around it, especially if we developed the procrastination as children. So again, this goes back to inner child, what are your inner child’s beliefs? What are the mistaken thoughts? What are the mistaken beliefs? What is that inner child say to you, when you’ve got a deadline? And it’s going “Oh, no, no, we don’t need to do that right now. No, that’s too painful. We’ll just push it off. No, it’s too scary. We’ll just push it off.” So again, it’s inner child work. Inner Child workbook, either by Katherine Taylor or by Luccia Cappachione. What is that about? Where did you learn to push things off? Now, fear. Fear is a huge obstacle, huge obstacle, when we are dealing with PTSD, see PTSD, etc, etc, etc. It stops us literally in our tracks. How many times have you gone right up to the edge and then you pull back? How many times have you, you know, do this and you pull back how many times and then, then when you really look at it, you’re like, wow, why? Why am I doing that? What am I afraid of? And then when I start working with my clients, and we start digging into that fear, it’s always goes back to an inner child fear is a very, very itty bitty person fear. It’s a little kid fear and doesn’t invalidate it. But it just means that you have got to work on that trauma, you have got to work on that fear. Fear is what stops us. Absolutely. Fear is what stops us with everything. I mean, when you think about it, when people say, Oh, this is why I didn’t do this, well, why? Well I was afraid of and then fill in the blank. So, fear is what stops us from doing a lot of things. Not just trauma survivors, but regular old people too.

So, it’s really it’s managing the fear and it’s acknowledging the fear and it’s going back working through the inner child going through the inner child workbook, figuring out when did I start procrastinating? When did I become a perfectionist? When did this happen? How old was I? Why did I become a perfectionist? Why did this happen? So, it’s really important to go back through and dig through and figure out where this all came from CPTSD from surviving to thriving Pete Walker, inner child workbook Luccia Cappachione or Katherine Taylor. Either one, I don’t care, get it work it or whatever one works for you. I don’t care, get it, work it. This is the stuff that needs to be dealt with and the avoidance. So again, the avoidance What are you avoiding? So, you know, some people avoid things because of the big emotions.

Kris Godinez  10:03

So again, little ones are the ones that have a hard time with big emotions. If you are dealing with something that has got big emotions around it, that’s probably the inner child is the one that’s having a hard time coping with the big emotions because, think about it. When we were raised in the abusive household or the toxic household or the disordered household, however you want to put it, emotions were not allowed, and emotions were not okay. The only emotion you could express was one of the narcissist or the abuser was okay with. And that usually was like, nothing, they didn’t want to be bothered, you know, it was okay, if you were happy, not too happy. See where I’m going with that? Certainly not okay to have anger, certainly not okay to be afraid, certainly not okay to have sadness. Because whay would they do all give you something to be sad about, I’ll give you something to be angry about. I’ll give you something to be afraid of, you know, they don’t allow little kids to have the big emotions and experience them and know how to cope with them. So really, for us going through and surviving that and surviving a romantic relationship or friendship or work situation. Our task is to go back through and help comfort that inner child and let that little one, express all the big emotions and be okay with it and be safe with it.

So, procrastination is an avoidance of pain. Procrastination is an avoidance of feeling scared or feeling angry or feeling sad, or, you know, fear of not being perfect, fear. Do you see where I’m going with that? It’s like, Okay, guess what? So, all of the emotions are good emotions, even anger, even sadness, anger is there to show us where we’ve been hurt. That’s what anger is about. Anger is the bodyguard of the softer emotions. And a lot of people are like, “Oh, no, I don’t want to feel I don’t want to feel I don’t want to feel.” You’re human. You’re going to feel. The ones who don’t feel are the psychopaths, you don’t want to be that. So, you want to be able to feel, you want to be able to allow you want to make yourself safe and be allowed to have anger. Okay, what’s underneath the anger? Hurt. So where did you get hurt? You know, what happened? What’s, what’s the softer emotion that’s underneath the anger. And usually, it’s again, fear. It’s the fear of being hurt. It’s the fear of whatever is going on. And so people get angry, so people don’t hurt them. Which doesn’t work, by the way. So, you know, so it’s really important to identify what are you procrastinating about? That’s going to tell you a lot. Okay, what specific? What specific area are you procrastinating on? What are you constantly avoiding? Why? What’s the fear? What is the little kid inside telling you? What are they trying to avoid? What are they trying to get away from? What is making them uncomfortable? And that’s why it’s really, really important to comfort the inner child and have chats with them. Hey, little one, it’s okay to have big emotions about this. This is scary.

So, for example, writing the letters writing and burning the letters, sometimes I’ll have clients come in, and they will absolutely not want to write the letters. “No, no, no, no, no, I don’t want to do it. It’ll make it real.” Yeah, it does make it real. And that’s why you need to write the letters. And, again, it’s hard. Because once we allow ourselves to start processing those emotions and start feeling the feelings, there’s no going back. And I think there’s a part of the inner child that kind of knows that. And it’s that fear of letting go. It’s that fear of, “Whoa, now I really have to deal with this. Now I really have to process this, now I really have to…” fill in the blank. So, it’s, it’s really important to comfort the inner child as you’re going through all of these ways that you’ve been procrastinating. Who, how, where, what, why? That’s what you want to ask yourself, what is the… what is the subject of the procrastination? What are the lies that I tell myself about the procrastination because that’s important too. Because remember, it’s that magic thinking that little kids have. “Oh, I work better under pressure.” No, you really don’t. So, you know, what are the…what is the what’s going on? What is the subject I’m trying to avoid? Why am I trying to avoid it? Who made it unsafe for me to deal with this? How can I help myself move forward?

Kris Godinez  14:50

So, I wanted to read thing on psychology today. Let me see if I can find it. Hold on just a second. Okay, So Psychology Today, alright, procrastination. Everyone puts things off sometimes, but procrastination chronically avoids… a procrastinator chronically avoids difficult tasks. Now, this is on psychology today. And it’s just titled procrastination. Okay, “I don’t feel like it” comes to take precedence over their goals and over their responsibilities and can set them on a downward spiral of negative emotions that further deter future efforts. So, it is self-sabotaging. Because what do we do? We procrastinate, we don’t get things done. And then we beat the living crap out of ourselves. Who that’s not good. You don’t want to do that. So, procrastination is almost a form of self-punishment. And it’s not good. And it’s learned, it’s learned, we learn it from the situation with the disordered family or the disordered lover or the disordered boss or the disordered whatever. So, it’s, you know, we don’t do it, we missed the deadline, we don’t get it done. And then we start telling stories about how horrible we are, and how stupid we are. And you’re this, you’re lazy, you’re that you’re this and next thing you know, you feel like crap. How you say things to yourself matters. So don’t beat yourself up when a procrastination event happens, what you have to do is figure out the who, what, when, where, how, why, and then come up with a plan because that’s what good therapists would do.

To help get over that hump and get through the procrastination to get this goal done. Sometimes it’s filing the divorce papers. Sometimes it’s packing up and leaving. Sometimes it’s dealing with bank issues. Sometimes it’s dealing with the debt. Sometimes it’s dealing with, you know, whatever uncomfortable topic. So, it’s really important to work through that figured out the who, what, when, where, how, why, and start processing. Procrastinators also involve a degree of self-deception. At some level, procrastinators are aware of their actions and consequences. But changing their habits in their minds requires greater effort that actually completing the task in front of them. So, what we tend to do, and this is why I keep saying how you think it is vitally important to how it turns out, because if you tell yourself, “Ah, cleaning the house is gonna be awful.” Well, guess what? Your subconscious is sitting there listening, and it goes, “Okay! She wants it to be awful. Let’s make it miserable guys, okay? Okay, fabulous.” Seriously, and our emotions go down that track. So how you say things, how you think things the subconscious listens to and sets about to make it happen, so that you can stop worrying about it. And you don’t want to create bad days. So it’s the same thing as okay. You wake up in the morning and you say, oh, today is gonna suck, and then it does.

Why? Because you told yourself today was gonna suck and your subconscious went, okay. She wants it to suck kids. Let’s make it a sucky day. It’s just gonna be sucky. Okay. Okay. Everything’s gonna be miserable. Yeah, nothing’s gonna be right. No, absolutely. Nothing’s gonna be right. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, but if you wake up in the morning, and you go, I am going to allow myself to have a good day. The subconscious goes, “Oh, she wants a good day. Okay. Okay, we can do that. Alright, let’s, let’s make it a good day. Okay. Yeah, yeah, everything’s gonna be okay. Yeah, it’s good.”

Kris Godinez  18:41

Do you see where I’m going with that? So how we say things is how it turns out. And I’ll give the example of the actor I worked with an actor that was terrified of falling on stage, I’m gonna trip I’m gonna fall I’m gonna do this and to do that, blah, blah, blah. If you keep thinking that you’re going to, he did. And it was because that’s what he was focused on. It’s like driving, wherever your eyes go, the cars gonna go wherever your brain goes, the emotions are gonna go, same concept. So okay, so what we tell ourselves about the task at hand, really does affect it now.

Do I like cleaning toilets? No, it’s not my favorite. But, I will go you know what, it’s going to smell wonderful. When I’m done. It’s going to be nice and clean. It’s going to be fabulous. I’m gonna put on some music and I’m gonna enjoy myself. And then I clean the toilet, and it’s done. And it’s fabulous. And it smells wonderful. And yeah, and it wasn’t this. How to explain this slogging through molasses to get the toilet clean. But that’s what we do to ourselves is that we tell ourselves, “Oh, it’s gonna be horrible. Oh, it’s gonna be awful.” So, I’ll have clients come in and sit down. And they’ll say, oh, this homework assignment it’s gonna be hard…..stop. Will it be a challenge? Yes, it may be challenging isn’t going to be hard only if you say so. And they’ll kind of look at me and be like, what? And I’ll be like, how you say it is how it turns out how you say it, is what our subconscious sets about to make happen. So you must be meticulous in your thoughts and words. I know. And really be aware of what you’re saying to yourself and how you are saying it to yourself. It doesn’t need to be difficult. But for some reason, in our little inner child mind, it’s like, no, it has to be difficult. Well, why? Because everything with the abuser was difficult, I guarantee it. If there’s an easy road and a hard road, the abuser will always take the hard road, they’ll always make it as dramatic and chaotic, and horrible and awful as they possibly can. And so we grow up thinking everything has to be difficult, it does not always have to be difficult. It doesn’t. It doesn’t need to be difficult.

You know, it’s not necessarily going to be easy, either. But it doesn’t need to be miserable, either. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, you really want to start working on changing your thoughts? How are you thinking about things? Especially the things you procrastinate on? What is the fear? Can you calm the fear down? Can you comfort the inner child? Can you change your thoughts about it? Can you make it a little bit more enjoyable or less anxiety producing or less miserable, or whatever, you know, now, there are some things that are just never going to be fun, like cleaning the toilet, but you do what you can to mitigate it, put on some great music, you know, get a new cleaning thing, you know, sing while you’re doing it. Think of poetry while you’re doing it. You know, it’s like it doesn’t have to be miserable. It doesn’t, it doesn’t I give you permission to have cleaning days that are not miserable. I hate to give you permission to have things not be miserable. It’s okay. You’ve got to tell yourself that because we’ve heard that, you know, it needs to be difficult that quite chaos drama so much. That is really a hard habit to break. But it’s not impossible. So you want to break that habit. And you can, you can, so you want to work on going okay, habit, I hear you I see you I am not playing.

Kris Godinez  22:21

I’m not playing and it’s going to take more than a one and done you’re gonna have to do that probably every single time you go to do that task that you have been procrastinating on because the automatic thoughts, the knee jerk reaction is to procrastinate and to tell yourself all sorts of stories about how horrible it’s going to be. So you’re going to have to change that you’re going to have to change that. Okay, let’s get back to the to the article here. Um, okay, so it involves self deception, deception, we talked about that.

Procrastinators are often perfectionists for whom it may be psychologically more acceptable to never tackle the job analysis paralysis, than to face the possibility of not doing it well. They may be so highly concerned about what others think of them that they put their futures at risk to avoid judgment. Okay. So for this, you are literally what other people think is none of my business, you’re literally going to have to tell yourself that I don’t care what other people think if this isn’t good enough for them, they can go pound sand, seriously, like and you’re going to have to do that because abusers will be like, it’s not good enough. It’s not good enough. If it’s a boss, you do it to the best of your ability. And if they don’t like it, start looking for a new job.

Seriously, I’m you know, I’m so done with these jackwagon bosses that are like so good. And if so I can do it’s not good enough. And yet, they’ll let their little golden children get away with murder. And I’m like, you know, what, just know get a new job. No, no, sorry. You know, and it’s the same thing with families. They’ll let the golden child get away with murder. And then they’ll tell the kid that’s actually doing all the work not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough. Not good. You know what, if this is not good enough for you? Then I don’t need to be around you. Buh, bye. Buh, bye now. Goodbye, go pound sand. Goodbye. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, it’s… what other people think is really none of our business. And especially if it’s something that’s not impacting other people so much.

So, say for example, okay, so one of the things I’ve heard, when people are leaving abuse, oh, my gosh, I’m terrified that I didn’t do everything right in the court documents. Okay, get a consultation, or go to Fresh Start Women’s Resource Center and go consult with somebody for 15 bucks, and make sure that the paperwork is good, and then turn it in. And really, then the more as we talk. It turns out that that’s just an excuse because they’re afraid of turning it in. And then we got to deal with the fear. Do you see where I’m going with that? Who, what, where, how, why. What’s really underneath the procrastination, what’s really going on? Nine times out of 10 It’s fear, fear of being judged, fear being wrong, you know, fear of having it be real, fear of actually leaving and doing things on your own, fear of, you know, there’s all sorts of stuff going on. It is usually fear based. Okay? Um

Kris Godinez  25:24

Okay, why do I procrastinate. Procrastination is driven by a variety of thoughts and habits, that fundamentally we avoid tasks or put them off because we do not believe we’ll enjoy doing them. Yeah. And we want to avoid making ourselves unhappy, or we fear that we won’t do them well. People may also procrastinate when they are confused by the complexity of a task such as filing taxes, or when they’re overly distracted or fatigued. So again, you want to check in how are you feeling? Are you doing self-care? Are you getting enough sleep? Are you putting things off because you’re not taking care of yourself, and you just don’t have the energy? You know. So it’s really important. It’s like, we are not separate. Our bodies are not separate from our minds, our minds are not separate from our bodies, you must take care of the whole organism, you’ve got to take care of Mind Body Spirit, you know, make sure you’re okay, make sure you’re getting enough water, make sure you’re eating healthy, make sure you’re getting enough sleep, leaving abuse takes a huge amount of energy, mental energy planning, all of that stuff, you know, making sure you’re okay making sure the kids are okay getting help for yourself getting help for your kids. You’ve got to do self-care. And sometimes the procrastination is the codependency.

Okay, who, what, when, where, how, why? Because we put ourselves on the back burner, we have been taking care of ourselves, and we just don’t have the energy to do whatever it is that needs to be done. So that’s why you want to make sure you’re taking care of yourself through this whole process. Okay, hold on. What are the psychological roots of procrastination psychologists have identified various drivers of procrastination from low self-confidence to anxiety, a lack of structure, and simply an inability to motivate oneself to complete unpleasant tasks. Research has also shown that procrastination is closely linked to rumination or becoming fixated on negative thoughts. So, it’s just like what I was saying. It’s like if you turn your eyes, if you’re driving your eyes go that way. Your car’s gonna go that way. You see where I’m going with that? Same thing with the thoughts. If your thoughts start circling the drain, you’re gonna start circling the drain, you must be meticulous in what you were thinking, what you’re saying to yourself. Okay, hold on, are we doing on time? Okay?

Does it serve a purpose? Procrastination is a self-defeating behavior pattern, but it can be seen as serving a psychological purpose, especially for people with perfectionistic tendencies. By protecting the individual against the fear of failure, judgment by others, or self-condemnation. Avoiding unpleasant tasks by devoting energy to other tasks, like organizing or cleaning also helps procrastinators avoid feeling unproductive. So, for example, a lot of clients will come in and say, Okay, I’m gonna go do this. And then when we meet the next time, they’re like, Well, I started this over here. And then I thought, well, since my hands are dirty, I might as well go into the garden and do this. And then once I did that, I realized I needed to come back into the house and clean this. And so they’ll, they’ll, they’ll fill it with other things that do need to be done. But again, it’s avoiding the one thing that really needs to be done. So again, who, what, when, where, how, why? What are you avoiding? Why are you avoiding it? Who does it remind you of? What are you feeling? What are you thinking? Do you see where I’m going with that? So yeah, so just because you’re, you’re filling your time with other things, you still want to take a look at what you’re avoiding? What what are you avoiding doing? Why are you now suddenly cleaning the entire house when the taxes need to be done? Or why are you doing this over here when the paperwork needs to be filed? You know, to see where I’m going with that.

Kris Godinez  29:17

Okay, um, all right. Why are we so sure that we’ll actually do something later, predicting how we’ll feel in the future is known as effective forecasting. And people tend to be fairly bad at it. For example, procrastinators may feel bad about not having exercise today, but they may raise their mood by predicting that they’ll do it tomorrow. Thus, they avoid feeling negative emotions in the moment but, the cycle is likely to repeat. So, for me, when I realized that I have not done something, I put it off, I will get up and go do it. Like seriously, like, seriously, because doing this future predicting Oh, I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do that. It’s kind of like people who make list and they don’t get all of the things on the list done. And then they beat themselves up for not getting all the things on the list and instead of going, okay, and moving this over to tomorrow’s list, those are the first two ones on the list I’ll do those two first. You know, it’s always that negative, negative, negative, negative, negative. So this is a learned behavior.

So, it’s important to if you do, do lists that you build in time, for a little bit of procrastination, tiny little bit tiny, like 10-15 minutes, max, and then you get right back to doing what you were doing. Or if you do a list, you make sure that you don’t beat yourself up and you don’t have a list that’s a million miles long. You want to do a list that’s maybe three things, you finish those three things, great, do another three things. Make it winnable, make it attainable, make it pleasant, make it fun, make it a win for you. narcissists are all about everyone around them losing in them winning. How about you get yourself a win? So, the win would be three things on your list. You do those great, fantastic, even if you do only one of them. Great, fantastic. I’ll do the other two tomorrow. Okay. But then do make sure you do that. That’s the thing. You can’t just keep going. Oh, I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. After all. Tomorrow’s another day. I always hated that That movie is the worst movie ever on the face of the planet. So thank you, Andrea.

So okay, who’s most likely to procrastinate? People who procrastinate hold different values than people who do not in studies, procrastinators reported valuing personal enjoyment over more highly than others do and valuing. Sorry, let me try that sentence again. People who procrastinate research finds may hold different values than people who do not. In studies, procrastinators report valuing personal enjoyment more highly than others do and valuing a strong work ethic less and more likely to complete tasks they feel are important to them personally, than those that are assigned to them. I don’t know I think I’m going to disagree with that. Because really, when you think about it, getting divorce paperwork done is important personally, and I don’t think that they have a less work ethic. Some of the hardest working people I know are the single moms and dads that are dealing with abusers. So I’m gonna contest that I’m gonna say no, I don’t agree with that.

Consequences of procrastination. Procrastination may relieve pressure in the moment, but it can have steep emotional, physical and practical costs. Students who routine we law students who routinely procrastinate tend to get lower grades. Workers who procrastinate produce lower quality work and in general, habitual procrastination can experience. procrastinators can experience reduced wellbeing in the form of insomnia or immune system or gastrointestinal disturbances, which are all things that people that are going through abuse have. Procrastination can also jeopardize both personal and professional relationships. Is it bad for your health? Yes, you are at a higher risk for hypertension and cardiovascular disease. They tend to engage in more self-blame and disengage from wellness advice suggesting that cultivating greater self-compassion could help such individuals begin taking better care of themselves. Self-compassion Radical Self forgiveness by Collin Tipping so many times survivors of abuse beat the living crap out of the cells. Why didn’t I leave sooner? Why didn’t I do this? Why didn’t I should have done this I could have done that I wouldn’t if you hear, if you hear yourself doing this should have, coulda, woulda that’s mental musturbation. It’s a mind thing. Don’t do it. It’s not good for you. It’s it’s it’s it’s it’s you’re shoulding all over yourself. The second you hear, should have could have woulda… Nope. I’m shoulding all over myself. I am not going to do that. Stop. Do engage in self-care. Do you engage in taking care of you, that’s what you want to do.

Kris Godinez  33:53

Okay, is there a link between procrastination and depression? Yes. What’s the point thinking becomes the main thought you want to work on it with working on the mistaken thoughts working on the mistaken beliefs how to beat procrastination. Okay, here we go. And I will get to the questions. It takes effort to change behavior but it’s not impossible. You want it maybe engage in in cognitive behavioral therapy where they address the mistaken thoughts and the mistaken beliefs. studies based on the procrastination at work scale, which identifies 12 common forms of workplace procrastination have highlighted some potential solutions, such as adopting a timeline that builds in time for delay but not too much.

Making a personal challenge out of mundane tasks. Now, that’s something I do a lot. It’s like, I’ll set a timer and go, can I get it done in 15 minutes? Can I get it? Can I do really good job? In 20 minutes, can I you know, whatever. You make it fun, you make it a game, you know? Or if you’re listening to music, if you’re doing stuff to music, can I get this done before the end of the song? Can I you know, Can I hit the kitchen before you know the album is done or you know, whatever. So, you make it a game, you make it fun! You do ways to find the fun in it. I know. It’s weird. But yeah. You change the mindset, developing empathy for one’s future self…compassion, as what as one would a close friend or child can be an important first step in ending the habit because we’re less willing to put a good friend in such a disadvantaged position. Again, if you were your own child, treat yourself as if you were your own child or your own best friend. You know, would you allow a good friend or your child to sit there and beat themselves up? No, you wouldn’t. So don’t do that with you. There aren’t 100,000 million people that want to kick your ass! Don’t you be one of them! Seriously.

So you’ve got to treat yourself with kindness and compassion and gentle and curiosity. Like really, this whole therapy journey is all about curiosity, the who, the what, the when, the where, the why, the how, you know, it’s like, get curious, and it’s okay to have that childlike kind of, “Oh, wonder why I’m doing that?” You know what I mean? It’s okay. Don’t beat yourself up. Don’t do it! Not allowed. No, no, no more. Don’t do that. No beating yourself up. How can I stop putting off important decisions? Many procrastinators struggle to make important decisions like filing for divorce, in part because they’re not making a choice absolves them of responsibility for the outcome. And a lot of times we’re afraid of making the wrong choice. It’s what if I’m making the wrong choice? What if it’s the wrong thing, but that’s when you got to go back through your list of deal breakers. And that’s when you got to go back through your list of everything that person has done to you. And how many deal breakers did they break? There’s your answer, it’s not the wrong choice. Sometimes people simply become so exhausted from making decisions that it seems impossible to make even relatively unimportant ones.

Research suggests that sticking to a personal set of decision making rules, or outsourcing some decisions to a partner, friend, coworker may help overcome decision fatigue. You know, and of course, if you’re in an abusive relationship, you don’t have that partner to bounce things off of. So, but that’s when you’ve got to find a support group. That’s what it’s important to get a therapist. That’s what it’s important to reach out and get help. It’s okay. So okay, to recap here. Procrastination is based in fear, it’s part of PTSD, CPTSD, it is a trauma response. It is a bad habit. It is something we’ve learned, it’s something that has been indoctrinated in us because we had to be perfect if we’re perfectionist or we’re afraid of making the wrong choice, excuse me, or whatever. So it’s really important to work on self-esteem. Work on your list of deal breakers, write out everything that happened. Remind yourself of what happened. You’re not wrong, okay?

Kris Godinez  38:35

Give your set yourself winnable goals like little, like, two or three things on a list. Do that. Great! You did it! Now you can do two or three things tomorrow. Great, perfect. build in some time, you know, but not too much time. Be aware of the self-deception be aware of the “Oh, it’ll be okay. I’ll do it tomorrow.” No, get up and do it now. Absolutely. So, like if I realized I have not stood up and walked around and worked out or moved or whatever from my desk. It’s like oh, okay, that’s part of the reason why I got the watch because every hour it’ll be like okay, no, thank you. I’m not talking to you. Thank you get you know, get up walk you know, go do something. So, you know things little things to help you absolutely. And the biggest thing is self-compassion. Radical Self-Forgiveness Colin Tipping gentle with you all of these jerks in your life that have been abusive. You don’t need that from you. You don’t need that from them either. But you don’t need that from you. Can procrastination be overcome? Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s the good news.

Work on the thoughts work on the beliefs the who, what, when, where, how, why. Good with a good trauma therapist, work the workbooks love that inner child like nobody’s business, give the inner child the confidence to do what they need to do and to not care what other people think it doesn’t matter what other people think other people can go pouncing Seriously. So there is that. I hope that helped. Now let’s get to the questions. Okay, hold on. Let me get over here. And let me make this bigger so I can see it. Oh my god. Come on, there we go.

Is it common? That the narcissistic victims are afraid of doing something they enjoy? Because they feel they’re not allowed to? Yes. Oh my god. Yes, I can, Lord. So narcissists are selfish. Every single four letter words you can think of. And they are petty and jealous, and they are emotionally operating on that maybe, a two year old on a good day if the wind is blowing in the right direction. So, if the target of abuse is doing something that they enjoy, or is buying themselves something, the abuser will come in and be like, well, how can you get to do this? How can you get to have that? How come I don’t have you’re an adult, go buy yourself one. Hello, you know, this is for me, you know. So they’ll do that they’ll they’ll be angry that you’ve done something for yourself, or that you’ve bought something for yourself? Or that you’re doing something for yourself, or you’re enjoying yourself, somehow They’ll ruin it, They’ll ruin it, because it’s not about them, number one, and number two, They’ll ruin it because they don’t feel joy, and how dare you feel joy? How dare you enjoy something when they can’t? Literally, that’s how they think they’re petty. They’re petty, like nobody’s business.

So, it’s kind of like, how do I explain this? It’s like, they’ll get jealous over the weirdest damn things, even if it’s something they’re not interested in. So like, say, for example, you like soccer, and they don’t, but you’re enjoying the game, they’ll get angry that you’re enjoying the game. I just Yeah. So you know, or they’ll, this one happened recently, they’ll come in and complain to the partner, that the partner How dare the partner be successful in their business? How dare you have time to take care of yourself during the day when I don’t? What? I’m sorry, this person has worked their hind end off, to be successful in their business, own their own business and be able to take time off whenever they want or need. So, this is a you problem.

Kris Godinez  42:29

this is not this person’s problem. But they’ll do that they’re petty, and they’re jealous, because they want what you have. You know, they don’t look at all the hard work you put into it. You know that you have your own business and that you’re doing this, you’re doing that? No, they just want to take what you have, and they want to be angry about it. And they don’t want to bother figuring out how they do can have free time, etc. So that is what they do. You know, they they absolutely. And so then when we leave that abusive relationship, and you know, we’ll go to watch soccer game, for example, we’ll feel guilty or we’ll feel weird about it. Because we’re waiting for that other shoe to drop. We’re waiting for that punishment. We’re waiting for that. How dare you enjoy that? How dare you buy that for yourself? How dare you have a job you love? How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? Do you see where I’m going with that? So yeah, that’s absolutely what they do. And it does take time to get through that weird feeling of guilt. And what you do is you write them a go pound sand letter, dear abuser, go pound sand. You know what? I get to enjoy soccer. I get to have a job where I take time off. I get to buy things for myself. I get to, you know, fill in the blank. But they wanted to make us feel guilty. Absolutely. Because they can’t feel it. And it pisses them off when we feel something that they cannot ever feel. So yeah, they absolutely do that. Second part of that question is my narc mom would often wouldn’t let me do these things because she didn’t want it. Yeah, if they don’t understand it. Again, if it doesn’t affect them directly. If they don’t enjoy it, if they don’t like it, they can’t understand why we would enjoy it. And remember, they want us to be them. They want us to be mini mess like they like football. You like soccer, which is funny because football is soccer in Europe. But you know what? American football, they like American football. We like soccer. They’ll try to get you to like football American football instead of soccer. So because they want us to like everything they like and if we like something they don’t like, well how dare you not be me? How dare you not think what I think How dare you not like what I like? So is that enmeshment? It’s that weird weird enmeshment.

Oh, can you speak a little more about how disordered people punish us for both failure and too much success. Okay, so again, there is no separation between us and the abuser in the abusers mind, we are them. They are us, we are them. And we damn well better act like them, and we better make them look good. And if we fail, we’ve made them look bad. How dare we, okay? Or conversely, they’re just looking for an excuse to punish because their status and they enjoy it or we’ve done well, and they’re angry because we outshone them. So that is something that abusers do because they’re crazy seriously, there’s no winning with them, you cannot win, there’s no winning with them. Too much. Not enough, too much. Not enough, too much not enough. That’s their whole thing. And they’ll punish you for failing, they’ll punish you for succeeding. They’ll punish you for just sitting there. They’ll punish you for having a thought they’ll punish you for the winds blowing, you know if that’s just who they are. So when somebody is punishing somebody, no matter what, get the hell away from them. They’re crazy. They’re toxic, get away, get away. But that’s what they do. And there’s no logic behind it. And I think that’s where a lot of survivors of abuse get really stuck is that they keep looking for the why are they doing this? But why are they doing here’s why they’re doing it. They’re crazy. That’s your answer. They are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. They enjoy it their sadists. They like punishing they like hurting they like harming. So yeah, they’re crazy. It is nothing you did nothing you did. Nothing you did. Absolutely. All right. Let’s go to the next question.

Kris Godinez  46:43

All right, I have been coming out of denial, followed by betrayal by my now no contact brother. When do I know I have felt my feelings enough to start up again? Start what up? Again? I’m not sure I understand the question. So let me try to answer it to the best of my ability because I’m not quite sure what you’re talking about. If you are talking about start up again, start. Okay. Can you tell me more? What do you mean start up again? Do you mean start dating again? So let me answer that question. And if that’s not the right one, then hopefully you’ll type in what you are talking about. And I will be able to answer that. But let me answer this. So okay, when we come out of an abusive relationship, and there has been betrayal, okay, if you’re talking about dating again, you’re not ready to date until you really work on your self-esteem, your boundaries, your list of deal breakers, seriously, like, you need to grieve. You’re going through the grieving process when we leave an abusive relationship, whether that’s a family of origin, a boss, friend, romantic partner, whatever.

Grief takes a year, a normal grief pattern takes a year to go through all the firsts and to process through all of the weirdness. You know, especially with abuse, it’s like, okay, the betrayal, this that, you know, etc, etc, etc, and getting through all the first and the second year, it’s like, okay, now I’m allowing myself to enjoy things that the abuser wouldn’t let me enjoy, right? Because this is complicated grief. This is not normal grief. This is complicated grief, because we’ve got this love hate relationship going on with the abuser. We love them. We hated their behavior. You know, they were abusive, and we love them what the hell. So, we’re dealing with this complicated grief. So we’re dealing with all of these mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs, the things the lies that they said about us. The gaslighting, the cheating, the stealing the, you know, the all of that. So, you got to get through the complicated grief, you got to work through the trauma CPTSD from surviving to thriving P. Walker, get with a good trauma therapist, you’re ready to date. When you know who you are, you’re ready to date when you’ve worked on your self-esteem. You’ve got your boundaries in place, you’ve got your list of deal breakers, and you’re not putting on blinders, when the red flags are looking like a communist parade. Seriously. So that’s the big thing. It’s like write down all the red flags. What were the red flags you ignored? What are red flags of abusers that you need to be watching for and you do so you know and trusting your gut. Are you practicing trusting your gut? Are you working on do you trust what you know that you know? Are you working on your certainty? You know, don’t listen to your head don’t listen to your heart. Listen to your gut. Listen to your gut. So that’s when you know you’re ready to date again is when you’re listening to your gut. Your self-esteem is in place your boundaries are in place you recognize red flags. You can see them coming a mile away. You sidestep them you Don’t even deal with them. You know, you don’t get involved with an abuser, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. That’s when you know you’re ready to date again.

As far as if you mean you’ve been betrayed by the brother and you want to reestablish a relationship with them, I would be very cautious. Why were you betrayed? What What? What was their goal? Who are they siding with? What’s going on? If you are going to have a conversation with them, have it with a therapist, you know, have a third party there that can call them to the carpet if they need to. Be very careful about going to therapy with an abuser. If the brother is an abuser, don’t do it. Just go no contact and stay no contact. Let me make sure I understood that question. I mean, coming out of denial, followed by betrayal by my now no contact brother, when do I know I have felt my feelings enough to start up again.

Kris Godinez  50:54

So I don’t know what you mean by start up again. So, if you could be a little more specific, that would help. But if it is starting up again, with the brother, if they betrayed you, be very cautious. And if you do decide to do a therapy session, make sure it’s with a good DBT therapist, trauma therapist that understands family dynamics, etc. And that is going to be an advocate for you, to keep you safe so that you can bring up the difficult topics or whatever and then trust your gut, don’t allow if this person is continuing to betray you. No. They’re not allowed in your life. Absolutely. So, I don’t know if that answered the question or not. But if you could either put it in the comments, so I can answer the question. Or if you could, I am me on Facebook, so I get a better understanding of what you’re asking. That would be good. Okay. All right.

Um, all right. About how many items would you suggest having on a daily To Do List of work and errands I would say no more than three. Start small. If you can do the three easy, no problem, okay, increase it by one or two. But don’t do a laundry list of oh my god, you know, it’s this mile long, 20 items list. It’s like, start small, give yourself a win. Seriously. So start with three if three is easy, and you get them done. Add two more. Okay, I got the five done. Okay. Add one more. Okay, I got the 6 done. Do you see where I’m going with that? It’s like start small. Give yourself little wins. Give yourself little wins, because God knows. Our abusers love to just take the carpet and rip it out from underneath us. So, give allow yourself to enjoy little wins. So don’t overwhelm yourself with a long laundry list. It’s like, start small and then with if that works out, add more and do more that day. You know, but only go until you want to in that okay, I’ve done six things. I’m tired. Okay, take a break. Pat yourself on the back, take a break, go get some water. Okay, do these things really need to be done today are not? Okay. Yeah, they do. Okay, well, let me go back out and finish them. You know, again, that’s kind of like, if I realize I haven’t finished something that needs to be finished, I’ll get up and go do it. You know, don’t put it off, put it off, put them off, put it off, put it off. And it’s practice. It’s learning a new behavior. It’s learning a good healthy habit. It’s doing something different. And gentle with you.

Compassion is the key. Compassion is the key. Okay, um, is avoiding competition. The same as procrastination? Yeah. Because you’re avoiding not failing. Basically. It depends on what you mean by that. So now, hold on, let’s be clear here. Abusers put everybody in competition with each other. That’s not healthy. That’s not normal. Life is not a competition. Now, if you’re avoiding competition, as in, you’re not doing something because you don’t want to fail, then that’s an issue. Does that make sense? So, like, for example, let’s say you want to do sports, but you’re afraid of failing. Well, okay. You also never give yourself the chance to win if you don’t even try. Does that make sense? So yeah, avoiding things. Let me read that question. Again. Make sure I understood is avoiding competition, the same as procrastination? Yeah, kind of, kind of. So avoidant personality disorder is somebody who chronically avoids everything and their, their world just gets tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny adults miniscule. So you don’t want to do that. So there are going to be instances in life when there are things that are a competition. Absolutely.

But you don’t want it to be a narcissistic competition. So, in other words, narcissists put their kids pit their kids against each other and it’s competition for their attention. So I mean, if it’s that kind of competition, no, you don’t play Absolutely. If it’s like, okay, I’m writing an essay so I can get a grant. Yeah, do it. Absolutely. So, there is that. Oh, my gosh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Um, so where was I going with that? So yeah, I mean, it depends on what the competition is. If it’s if it’s a psychological competition, hell no, don’t play. But if it’s something that you’re wanting to do you know, that you’re afraid because there’s other people doing it will you’ll never win if you don’t even try, you know, so. And here’s the thing. Abusers make us think that failure is the worst thing ever. How dare you fail. But here’s the deal. How do babies learn how to walk?

Kris Godinez  55:44

They fall a lot, sometimes on their heads. Right? So, babies fall, no judgment. They fall, but abusers will judge them, abusers will make them wrong for falling, abusers will put them down and tell them they’re stupid. I’ve seen abusive parents do that. Don’t get me started. So, they make it so that this, you know, failing is somehow a horrible thing. No, you know what failure is? Well, crap that didn’t work. What can I do differently? Okay, so babies learn how to get balance. Thank you very much. By falling by failing, quote, unquote, you know, they fall and then they get back up and THEY GIGGLE which cracks me up, oh, my God. And then they’ll toddle along and then they’ll fall down again, and then they’ll go, Okay, let’s try this, you know, and that’s how they learn. So, we learn from our failures, if you’re smart, seriously, if things don’t work, you kind of go well, crap, that didn’t work. What went wrong? Well, maybe I should do this next time. Okay. Well, let me do that next time. And instead as sitting there judging yourself and beating yourself up Mia culpa, Mia, culpa, mea maxima culpa, I’m a terrible person for failing. No, you’re human.

Kris Godinez  56:59

Okay. What did you learn? What did you learn? What was the learn? What was the lesson? What can you do differently next time? That’s really what a failure is. And I think that is the difference between people who are able to move forward in life and people who are stuck is that instead of getting stuck in all the story that’s going on in the head. “Oh, it means this, it means that you’re a terrible person. You’re a failure. You’re bla bla bla, bla, bla, bla, thank you for your input. Shut the bleep up. Why? Because I say so. No, it means it didn’t work.” And because it’s an and world, it’s my favorite saying it’s an and world. What can I do differently next time? Oh, okay. Well, I will do this differently next time. Okay. And then it works. Do you see where I’m going with that? So, I think you’ve got to change the way you think about failing. It’s not that you want to fail, but what did you learn from it? And what can you do differently next time? And how can you not beat yourself up? You know, how can you reframe that? How can you change what you say to you? So that’s really important.

All right, kids. So that is it I think, let me double check. Hold on. Did I did I get oh, no, wait, there is one more, hang on. I’ve isolated myself in fear. And to feel my feelings from childhood, my brother, not going back. I wonder if I can start life again. Like go out and get a new dog and not focus on what’s coming up. Oh, oh, okay. So that was another question. Okay, I got it. You’ve isolated yourself. Got it! How do you know that you’re feeling okay, starting up again? Starting your life again, living your life. So Okay. Thank you. Thank you for sending that in.

Okay, so quickly, because I’m gonna go over time now. Basically, it’s it’s a little at a time, it’s not like this destination where oh my god, now I can start my life again. It’s like, Okay, I’m coming out of isolation and coming out of denial. I’d like to get a dog I want to I want to go do these things. You do it a little bit at a time get with a good trauma therapist, get with a self-esteem workbook. Get with radical forgiveness, radical acceptance, Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach. Radical Forgiveness by Collo, Tipping. Radical Self-forgiveness by Collin Tipping. You do things a little at a time. And you know, pick one, you know, start there. And you just keep going. It’s not like, it’s not like, oh, I have arrived and now my life begins. It’s like, no, your life is still going. And because it’s an and world. And I’m getting a dog, and I’m working on my self-esteem. And I’m seeing a therapist. And you’re doing that all at once. Does that make sense? So, you just take little things at a time and you just keep building and your life will happen. You know what I’m saying? It’s like you don’t want to… the only thing that I would say put on hold is the romantic stuff because you want to make sure like I said, you see the red flags you understand the red flags. If you have a list of deal breakers, you’re not going to allow somebody to treat you like that, again, you’ve got good self-esteem, you’ve got good boundaries.

That’s the only thing I would put on hold everything else, getting a dog going exploring your world, figuring out who you are, you could do that right now you could you could get a dog and get the self-esteem workbook, you could get a dog and go see a therapist. Do you see where I’m going with that? So yeah, the only thing I would put on hold is the romantic stuff. Because if you’ve been in an abusive relationship romantically, you need to make sure you get all of those things nailed down so that your inner child doesn’t pick another abuser. Because remember, the inner child, if they’re not worked on the inner child goes, Oh, looking outside. Oh, I know somebody who kind of sort of subconsciously reminds me of whoever was difficult in the family. I know. If I can make them love me, I prove mom and dad wrong. Half of a doodoo sandwich, half of a doodoo. Sandwich. Total doo doo sandwich. So but for the rest of your life, you know, getting a dog going exploring your world, find configuring out who you are, you can do that.

Get a therapist, get the self-esteem workbook, get a dog. It’s an and world, get support, get support, support, good friends, good support, and start allowing yourself to live your best life. What does that look like? Write it down. Write it down! You know, have fun with that. What have you always wanted to do that you never were able to or that you weren’t allowed to or whatever, you know, start looking at how to do that. How are you going to make that happen? But do get with a good therapist do work. The workbooks do look at getting a dog from a shelter or rescue because they’re overflowing right now. And yeah, so there’s that I hope that answered the question. If not let me know.

All right, my love’s now I’m going to end the show. Please remember Suzanna Quintana is a wonderful life coach. I love her to death her book is available. You can always find her at Suzannaquintana.com Let’s see what else what else, we need to tell you. Also tickets are available at krisgodinez.com For not just Honolulu but Atlanta. So that’s it. All right, you guys have a great week. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. You can always listen live on YouTube every week Sunday at noon, Arizona Mountain Standard Time. And if you want to find out more or listen to other episodes, you can go to Krisgodinez.com and if you have a chance, subscribe to this show on whatever podcast app you use and let other people know about. I want to thank my sponsor betterhelp.com. They are an online therapy company. Whether you are in the US or international. They will set you up with a qualified licensed therapist. PhD level or Master’s level. If you are interested in more information, go to betterhelp.com/krisgodinez.

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